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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:36 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
LORD GIBBS wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
LORD GIBBS wrote:Here We Go with this crap Jason Give us the best chance to win so just drop the QB switch crap we need to stop the run to open up the pass and pass to open up the run all teams know we run so lets mix it up a little


That post makes absolute zero sense.




READ IT AGAIN ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE


:lol: It's gibberish, I can't read it. And I promise I'm saying that in the nicest, most polite way possible that isn't meant to come off as smack. I don't know where the sentences end, or where they begin. Can I get a comma? Just give me some help here. Help me, help you. :D

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:50 pm
by LORD GIBBS
PulpExposure wrote:
LORD GIBBS wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
LORD GIBBS wrote:Here We Go with this crap Jason Give us the best chance to win so just drop the QB switch crap we need to stop the run to open up the pass and pass to open up the run all teams know we run so lets mix it up a little


That post makes absolute zero sense.




READ IT AGAIN ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE


You really don't like punctuation, do you?




ARE WE IN SCHOOL? IS THIS GOING TO BE GRADED?

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:00 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
LORD GIBBS wrote:ARE WE IN SCHOOL? IS THIS GOING TO BE GRADED?


Ok. Look dude, I apologize if you took offense but let this end here and now. Let's not derail this thread any further.

If you want us to be able to understand what you're saying to us, you have to use punctuation. Seriously, I still don't know what you were trying to say in that post. I don't use correct grammar all of the time but I try to give you enough so that you can comprehend what I'm saying.

Ok. Cool.

Back to the topic at hand.

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:03 pm
by John Manfreda
die cowboys die wrote:
John Manfreda wrote:I would give JC the rest of the season, but if he keeps playing like he has recently, than lets bring in someone else or at least competition for the no.1 job next season. After this season JC has had his chances. But if he keeps playing like he does now, than I would say Matt Cassel would be something to look into next season...


does Matt Cassel come in a package deal with Randy Moss, Wes Welker, and the Patriots O-line and coaching staff? because you realize, of course, that it is absolutely impossible to gauge how good any QB would be in real life when the only film you have of him involves him filling in for Brady in that offense, with one of the most potent surrounding casts in history. [i]**("real life" being defined as: "a team with a mediocre pass-blocking O-line and a mediocre group of WRs").

Quit distorting my post, I said if he keeps playing the way he is playing right now, I said look into. I never said sign, he might be a product of the system, I haven't seen him play enough to make that judgement. I said look into, any time we have a weakness and there is a player out there that might be able to correct it, than I hope they look into it. You also forgot I said if Campbell keeps playing the way he has the last couple of games. Quit taking my post out of context.

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:06 pm
by RayNAustin
PulpExposure wrote:Oh no, CLL. Are you converting to the Church of RayNAustin?


Rev. Ray checking in from the RayNAustin Holy trinity Church of Football says:

Memory brothers and sisters, that is what we must summon in answering these difficult questions, memory. We have walked this path before. Last year, on the heels of a 4 game losing streak due in large measure to an impotent offense unable to score points, we found ourselves in the same situation with 3 minutes left in the first half of the Chicago game, staring at a probable 5th loss in a row with zero points on the board and an offense that was headed toward a shutout at home, with the season on the line.

Was it faith in JC that got us through that difficult time, or was it fate that he would leave the game injured? And what did we see? Do you remember? We saw a career backup QB who hadn't started a game in 10 years come in ice cold and take us to two TD drives in 3 1/2 minutes. Luck? The speculation began. But then, over the next three games this nobody QB managed to double our previous per game point average and take us into the playoffs on a 4 game winning streak, managing to outperform every QB in the league over those last 4 games, utilizing the same lame O-line, same short receivers, and that conservative play calling that was offered as the plethora of excuses as to why JC couldn't put points on the board.

Now, here we are again, virtually the same situation, likely facing a 4 and 0 or we don't go scenario with an offense that can't score, averaging a pathetic 10 points per game over the last 4 with a 1-3 record during that time. Could the football gods be any more unfair to foist upon us the Baltimore Ravens, one of the consistently best defenses in the NFL? And should we expect a magical turnaround in our offensive fortunes against them?

It's time to define the differences between faith and foolishness, and remember that God helps those who help themselves. And we must also remember the definition of insanity, which is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result.

We certainly have enough information to make a logical decision. Over the past 7 games, we're averaging 14 points per game, 10 over the past 4 games, three of which were losses. In those three losses we're averaging just 7 points a game. So when the question is asked, "would we be better off making a change" the answer should immediately be clear..."how much worse could a change possibly be?

By not making a change now, what you are really saying is:

1) You expect magic to take hold, and the offense to come alive with the Ravens defense, because........well......just because.

2) You think we can win the next 4 games by holding the opponents below 7 points

3) I don't care about winning, I'm prepared to stand shoulder to shoulder with Captain Campbell, and go down with the ship.

Brothers and sisters, the answer is in the good book of NFL statistics. The chances that we will win any of the next 4 games....let alone ALL 4 games by scoring 7 points is virtually ZERO. The question shouldn't be "should we make a change" the question should be "why is there any questions at this point?"

Is it ideal to make a QB change at a critical time, against one of the best defenses in the league? No, it is not. But that's what you get when you embrace denial, and expect miracles to just happen, and refuse to consider making changes until it becomes desperation time.

We failed to heed the warnings of this disaster when we lost to the win less Rams, and struggled to eek out a slim victory against the Browns. We managed to win another close game against the still win less Lions, and since then, it's been all down hill, like a snowball headed for....you know where.

Of course there is no guarantee that changing QB's at this point will produce the same results we saw last year. At the same time though, the chance of having this 7 game drought become a downpour of points against the Ravens, magically, seem even more remote.

As a side note, even though I still think Zorn will be a very good coach, right now, he's being out coached by our opponents, and I do not like hearing talk of winning the next few games in order to make the playoffs. Zorn, and several other players have spoken of the playoffs, even after these horrific losses in three out of the last 4 games with their pop warner offense. The word playoffs shouldn't even be a thought right now, let alone spoken of openly.

Ole Joe Gibbs would cringe just to hear that word in this situation, and you couldn't get him to say the word, even if water boarded at Guantanamo Bay.

Better that coach Zorn focuses on having the offense score a TD before the end of the year, and not concern himself too much with playoffs.

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:13 pm
by Fios
wow that's a long post

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:27 pm
by tribeofjudah
Keep Jason...give him a chance.
It's like people hatin on Obama right now.... GIVE HIM A CHANCE.

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:42 pm
by tribeofjudah
Fios wrote:wow that's a long post


Austin is the Master of this. He must have alot alot of time on his hands..

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:09 pm
by Hooligan
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
LORD GIBBS wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
LORD GIBBS wrote:Here We Go with this crap Jason Give us the best chance to win so just drop the QB switch crap we need to stop the run to open up the pass and pass to open up the run all teams know we run so lets mix it up a little


That post makes absolute zero sense.




READ IT AGAIN ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE


:lol: It's gibberish, I can't read it. And I promise I'm saying that in the nicest, most polite way possible that isn't meant to come off as smack. I don't know where the sentences end, or where they begin. Can I get a comma? Just give me some help here. Help me, help you. :D



I'll give it a shot.

"Here we go with this crap. Jason give us the best chance to win, so just drop the QB switch crap. We need to stop the run to open up the pass, and pass to open up the run. All teams know we run, so lets mix it up a little."

The point is clear as day. We will open up the passing game if we can just stop the run. 8)

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:20 pm
by El Mexican
tribeofjudah wrote:
Fios wrote:wow that's a long post


Austin is the Master of this. He must have alot alot of time on his hands..
I agree with Ray.

BUT...

You won't see that expected change at QB because there are Redskins POLITICAL reasons involved.

By benching Campbell at this juncture you're basically saying to the entire NFL: this organization made a big mistake in taking JC in the first round of the 2005 draft. Vinny and Cerrato do not need another halo of doubt hanging over themselves and the entire organization as one that says "Run by idiots".

Yes, I know JC was Gibbs' selection. But we all know damn well that if the kid did not convince those two guys, he wouldn't be here.

No, they'll let Campbell play out the remaining of the season and THEN make a notable change. They know that the chances of making the playoffs right know are minimal. Heck, even beating the Bengals seems a pretty good deal.

So they'll just wait and let things fall by their own weight. By not revamping the O-line they forced JC to become a star-QB, and that seemed a long shot even at the start of last season. This year they have confirmed that.

Barring a miracle in these last four games, you can expect some notable changes at QB in 2009.

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:26 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
Per Peter Queen... Can I just stir the pot a bit more? :twisted:


a. I keep hearing the Seahawks might be thinking of letting Matt Hasselbeck -- with a very manageable $9.95 million, $9.45 million and $6.75 million cap number for the final three years of his contract -- go. If they do, they're nuts.

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:27 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
SkinsFreak wrote:
jbxrocker23 wrote:I feel that benching Jason now would be a mistake. Todd Collins is a serviceable backup, but I'm a firm believer that his late season success last year came from an extensive knowledge of the offensive system rather than his physical abilities and decision making abilities. More than one time, Collins knew where the receiver would be prior to his getting there, and thus could pick apart defenses easier.

Jason has been hurt a lot by his receivers this year. There have been quite a few drops recently. Santana Moss is the only legitimate deep threat, and if you double cover him he's virtually out of the game due to his size. Cooley is a good option, but other than that there is no one. ARE has no business being at the #2 spot, and recently it seems like he can be counted on for dropping half of what is thrown at him (he's the 50/50 guy). Thrash shouldn't be counted on to catch much either. Thomas and Kelly are too new, and were very slow to start, but I see them improving.

Take away the 'skins running game, and you have a decent QB with only 1 legitimate WR to target on the field. Keep Moss and Cooley locked down, sell out to stop the run, and you have the recipe for beating the 'skins.

Let's not forget that this is a first year head coach, a first year offensive coordinator, and the first year in a new offensive system. Jason needs to spend more time learning the system as the new receivers mature, and benching him now (in my opinion) would hurt more than help.

I'm not saying that we can't have a late season surge, a few miracles, and a late playoff run, It's going to take everyone playing as a complete team, and a lot more out of the rookies. However, If that doesn't happen, let Jason finish out the year, beef up the lines during the off season (please dear god), and let's go into next season with a better understanding of the system, and a year of experience notched in the belt.


=D> =D> =D>

I mostly agree also. Though Jason's been part of the problem too for a lot of the reasons brought up. But there's no question he should start out the year. There are a lot of things going on with the O. Zorn should look at EVERYTHING in the off-season. But Collins is a backup, no way Colt's ready for prime time. Starting either is giving up on the year and undercutting Campbell prematurely. There's no reason NOT to ride out the year with Campbell. But Zorn needs to look at everything after the season. Position by position, the coaching, the strategy, how he's using players, how they're calling plays. Everything. But now's not the time to throw it the towel on the season.

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:28 pm
by El Mexican
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Per Peter Queen... Can I just stir the pot a bit more? :twisted:


a. I keep hearing the Seahawks might be thinking of letting Matt Hasselbeck -- with a very manageable $9.95 million, $9.45 million and $6.75 million cap number for the final three years of his contract -- go. If they do, they're nuts.
Seems logical to me. Wouldn't be surprised if he ends up here next year. Not at all.

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:27 pm
by TeeterSalad
What ever happened to drafting a rookie QB and starting a rookie QB that season? JC sat on the bench for a year and a half before he even played a game, this is his 4th season in the league and his stats are less than average for a starting QB.

Don't get me wrong I like JC alot and want him to be a great QB, I just don't think he's going to get there. Good QB's find a way to win, JC is 14-17 as our starting QB.

The rest of the team is not great either but they are capable of putting us in a position to win games.

Last year it was our conservative playcalling that hurt us the most, losing all of those games after dominating early. This year its our inconsistency that loses us games, we can beat good teams, we can play football, and then we turn around and lose to inferior teams or let them hang around when we should dominate.

I would like to see a QB thats not afraid to take chances, yes interceptions will happen, its a part of the game. Smart, quick decisions will get an offense to produce points. I would rather see an offense that takes some chances and eats the risk once in a while than an offense that sputters every drive and punts. With our running game and our defense we should be dominating bad teams, and beating some/most good teams.

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:47 pm
by SKINS#1
When JC was drafted I thought he could be the Redsking QB of the future. Now, I think he has had his chance and failed. As stated by RayNAustin, now is the time for change. To many times JC has held the ball to long. Can Collins help the Redskins become a winner? He has in the past. Next year I would like to see Colt have an opportunity to start.

Given JC's performance, we all should be pulling for Colt because he is the only option we have for a future QB.

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:32 pm
by Skinna Mob
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Per Peter Queen... Can I just stir the pot a bit more? :twisted:


a. I keep hearing the Seahawks might be thinking of letting Matt Hasselbeck -- with a very manageable $9.95 million, $9.45 million and $6.75 million cap number for the final three years of his contract -- go. If they do, they're nuts.


CLL you are doing a good job obviously. But like they say on espn...C'MON MAN!!!
That comment by peter, is exactly what has plagued this team. AND is the exact reason why both sides of the lines are WEAK! As long as both lines keep struggling, so will the Redskins.

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:05 pm
by Skinsfan55
I like Jason Campbell, but unless he starts impressing the team before the season is over I think we need to at least think about bringing in some competition for him.

We've seen a lot of quality free agent and 2nd and 3rd round quarterbacks in the last couple years. It seems smart to at least bring someone in to try and learn the offense.

Of course, we shouldn't forget that a lot of Redskins receivers dropped balls they shouldn't have on Sunday.

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:19 am
by Redskin in Canada
Was this not meant to be Jason's MAKE or BREAK SEASON???

The let it be his MAKE or BREAK SEASON!!!

But IF he does not make it THIS SEASON ... :twisted:

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:38 am
by RayNAustin
Someone explain why it is so wrong to sit a player, and try to light a spark with new blood? It used to be done all of the time. Why is it now that sitting Campbell would be considered such a radical move, and so devastating, given the struggles on offense? I mean REALLY, how much worse can the offense perform? The way I see it, when you hit rock bottom, you can only get better.

Now I don't blame all of the offensive issues on Campbell. It's absolutely true that pass pro has been less than stellar. But a QB can cause as much problems for an o-line as an o-line can cause problems for the QB. Some of it is certainly missed assignments on the line.....some of it may be a failure of receivers to get separation.....but Campbell does hold the ball too long....very often...even on quick patterns, and he does miss plays down field even when he has been protected. Lately his decision making hasn't been great either. Sunday, Campbell played poorly. He threw some terrible balls, and made some terrible decisions. Throwing into triple coverage to CC....under throwing ARE deep (yes, ARE was open deep which disproves that we only have Moss for the deep stuff). And that dangerous throw on that bubble screen that could have been intercepted by two different Giants never had a chance. So yes, there were some drops, but there were a lot of poor throws and poor decisions made by Campbell too.

It should not happen, but I guarantee that when a QB repeatedly fails to find open receivers or under throws open receivers, those receivers will begin quitting on their routs after a while. And guess what folks, when such things happen, defenses get pumped up and go after the QB. This is basic football. When a defense is aggressive and comes after you, you either win that battle by making the plays to those receivers in single coverage or you don't. If you don't, they keep coming. And that will make even a good o-line look bad.

So no, I don't think the world would stop spinning if Jason's hiney spent a game or two riding the pine.

What's the worst that could have happened on Sunday had Collins or Brennan been the QB? Tell me how it could have been much worse? And that's the question that should be asked about this coming Sunday night.

And the big question could be answered by such a change too. If someone else comes in and we see marked improvement and more scores, then we'll know what the real problem is. If the backup suffers the same fate as Campbell, then we'd find that out too.

But you have to try something other than hoping and praying.

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:22 am
by skinsfan#33
tribeofjudah wrote:Keep Jason...give him a chance.
It's like people hatin on Obama right now.... GIVE HIM A CHANCE.


Jason is past the middle of his first term and is fast approaching the point were the nation (or the front office) will have to decide if he should be re-ellected. Right now his approval rating is dropping as fast as the Dow.

Obama is a roookie QB that hasn't even started a game yet! He is still in pre-season.

How is that for making a football/political comparrasion between the two.

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:24 am
by grampi
"Someone explain why it is so wrong to sit a player, and try to light a spark with new blood?"

Because it isn't going to do any good to replace a player who isn't the problem. You could put a Joe Montana or a John Elway in their prime behind our O line and the result would be the same anemic, pathetic offense we have now. THE O LINE IS THE PROBLEM, NOT JC!

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:07 am
by VetSkinsFan
grampi wrote:"Someone explain why it is so wrong to sit a player, and try to light a spark with new blood?"

Because it isn't going to do any good to replace a player who isn't the problem. You could put a Joe Montana or a John Elway in their prime behind our O line and the result would be the same anemic, pathetic offense we have now. THE O LINE IS THE PROBLEM, NOT JC!


Using your examples, I don't think we'd have the same results. You're talking, at least in Elway, a great QB who never had nearly as much support in his offense as Montana did. If Elway had Montana's tools <shudder> I can only imagine the results.

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:44 am
by Deadskins
TeeterSalad wrote:This year its our inconsistency that loses us games, we can beat good teams, we can play football, and then we turn around and lose to inferior teams or let them hang around when we should dominate.

I would like to see a QB thats not afraid to take chances, yes interceptions will happen, its a part of the game. Smart, quick decisions will get an offense to produce points. I would rather see an offense that takes some chances and eats the risk once in a while than an offense that sputters every drive and punts. With our running game and our defense we should be dominating bad teams, and beating some/most good teams.

The only inferior teams we've lost to this season, are the Rams and the Cowpies. I do agree that we are not consistent, and should be dominating some of these teams, but we really haven't blown but two games in the W/L column.

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:47 am
by SkinsFreak
Wow... some of the armchair QB's, coaches and players evaluators around here are quite amusing... :roll: ](*,)

JC has not been perfect... that's a fact. But, there are far more intricacy's here to consider than to just say JC sucks. If one can't recognize that, then they don't understand football, period.

Over the course of the 1st half of the season, JC was playing pretty well and opening eyes around the league. Remember that? Now in the 2nd half, the entire offense is struggling along with JC. Ever thought to use your brain to figure out why? Or is it just far less complicated for some to just declare that JC sucks, after having reasonable success earlier in the season and statistically his best season to date. Hmm....

Other than the struggles in pass protection, receivers dropping passes and the offense being one dimensional, over-using Portis while the passing game gets up to speed, I have seen JC holding the ball too long and not making the right reads on certain plays.

I've been of the opinion that JC's personal struggles have stemmed from learning a new offense and not wanting to make mistakes. Remember, Matt Hasselback also struggled in this offense in his first year playing in the system. I believe JC is trying to be cautious with the ball, and perhaps a little too cautious.

Zorn's comments yesterday lend credibility to my thoughts of JC being overly cautious, holding the ball too long in an effort to avoid mistakes...


Redskins.com wrote:Zorn would later call Campbell’s overall performance in the 23-7 loss to the Giants as “very average.”

That led to a question from a reporter whether Zorn would consider making a change at quarterback.

"No," he replied, before the question was even finished.

Campbell’s "average" play is part of growing pains in learning his offense, Zorn suggested.

“I am putting Jason in some advanced situations because really we have to move along with this football season,” Zorn said. “We all hope that there is a balance there. And I probably have tipped the scales. Those are things that you find out as you go along.

“I’m trying to push it. Now maybe I take a step back.”

“I felt like Jason had some real plus plays, but a coupe of decisions that he made and couple of throws that he made were off,” Zorn said. "You have to understand I put a lot on him to be right every time. He knows I think he can do it. And I do think he can really do it.

“You can say, ‘Coach Zorn is frustrated with Jason Campbell.’ But I’m frustrated if he makes even one error.”

Campbell, in his fourth NFL season and third as a starter, is certainly having his best season from a statistical standpoint.

In his first year in Zorn’s version of the West Coast offense, he has completed 63.8 percent of his passes for 2,560 yards, 10 touchdowns and four interceptions. He has been sacked 32 times, certainly an alarming statistic.




I believe 2 things can help this offense. First, Zorn said in his presser that he's recently thrown a lot at JC and put him in an "advanced situations". Maybe Zorn needs to scale it back a bit, as he also said. The fact remains that JC is still learning a new system. You can't expect any player to absorb an entire new system expeditiously, it does take some time. So if Zorn would just scale it back a bit, allow JC to absorb what he's already been given, that could help quite a bit.

Second, I think JC needs to start trusting his receivers. I know that's tough when they're often dropping passes, but he needs to give them a chance. Sometimes, even with tight coverage, the QB just needs to give the receiver a chance to make a play, and that means throwing the pass and not holding the ball. That may be tougher with little guys like ARE, Thrash and Moss, but Thomas and Kelly are big receivers, strong enough to go up and fight for the ball. That's why we got them, so start using them.

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:57 am
by Chris Luva Luva
Zorn also called out the WR's per ESPN...

Zorn needs to call himself out for putting certain WR's in the game. :lol: