The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Some very interesting perspectives here. I'm not going to put all of the blame on JC's shoulders. There is alot of blame to go around on the offensive side of the football when it comes to the passing game.

This O-line is pretty good running the football, alas Portis' numbers. But the pass protection is horrific and on numerous plays in this last game and the Pittsburgh game, JC just didn't have time at all to do anything. Does he still pat the ball and maybe hold it that extra second, yes. Is it killing us? No. Peyton Manning wouldn't do too much more with that protection that JC has had over the past two games and he's probably the quickest in the league on the trigger.

What needs to really be looked at is what are the other receivers doing when Moss is blanketed?

How are they running their routes?

Are we running routes right into coverage and not giving JC any options?

If JC is not meant to run the WC offense like some, especially Ray, have said, then should we cut our losses and see what Colt can do?

Or does some of this lie in Zorn's lap for not making the adjustments necessary in his play calling to account for crappy pass protection? Has his play calling become predictable by teams after the first 15?

If our O-Line can give JC time like Romo and other QB's get against our front four, would we be having these conversations?

If the WC offense relies on quick 3-5 step drops and our O-Line can't even hold up for that, then that's sad.

RayNAustin wrote:And this isn't new. We've experienced this before with Campbell....last year he was atrocious with regard to throwing TD passes, and just before being injured, we were on a long 4 game losing streak. And it was the short receivers, and the o-line that was also at fault then, along with the offensive system to blame. Collins then came in and we witnessed an IMMEDIATE turn around, won 4 straight games, while doubling our point production. So there is a history of long slumps with Campbell. Last year, nothing else changed except the QB. Half way through the Bears game, we had failed to score A SINGLE POINT, when Collins came in, we scored 14 points in 3 1/2 minutes. Of course this was all coincidental, or written off as being the result of Collins knowing the system better. It was a bunch of lame excuses then, and we are now experiencing the same situation and similar excuses now.

Whenever your argument gets weak you always bring this up. But your basic premise is not backed up by the facts. During that four game losing streak, Campbell did not play poorly, as you would have us believe. Here's how those four games actually went:

PHI 33 @ WAS 25 J. Campbell 23/34 215 YDS 3 TD 0 INT
Sean Taylor goes down with an injury and the subsequent defensive collapse allows the Eagles to come back.

WAS 23 @ DAL 28 J. Campbell 33/54 348 YDS 2 TD 1 INT
Without Sean Taylor, Terrell Owens runs rampant and scores 4 TDs on the Skins. Jason's one INT ends a late comeback drive.

WAS 13 @ TB 19 J. Campbell 30/49 301 YDS 1 TD 2 INT
Jason throws two picks against a tough TB defense on the road, when the ground game is ineffective. His second INT ends another late comeback drive.

BUF 17 @ WAS 16 J. Campbell 21/37 216 YDS 0 TD 1 INT
The Skins play a few days following Sean Taylor's murder. Coach Gibbs calls consecutive TOs to move the winning FG 15 yards closer.

And in the following 4 games:

CHI 16 @ WAS 24 J. Campbell 10/16 100 YDS 0 TD 0 INT T. Collins 15/20 224 YDS 2 TD 0 INT
Campbell goes down and is replaced by Collins. Great defensive performance keeps Bears down.

WAS 22 @ NYG 10 T. Collins 8/25 166 YDS 0 TD 0 INT
Windy night at the Meadowlands makes for less that stunning QB numbers.

WAS 32 @ MIN 21 T. Collins 22/29 254 YDS 2 TD 0 INT
Clinton Portis rushes for one TD and throws for another.

DAL 6 @ WAS 27 T. Collins 22/31 244 YDS 1 TD 0 INT
With Dallas have already clinched home field advantage in the NFC, they play their starters for two plus quarters trying for personal records, but abandon that pursuit when the game gets out of reach. Collins gets a 4th quarter TD to Moss on a WR screen that goes for 42 yards, against the Dallas scrubs.

And in the playoff game:

WAS 14 @ SEA 35 T. Collins 29/50 266 YDS 2 TD 2 INT
After the TD by Mix on the kick-off was disallowed and the Redskins failed to score from the Seahawks 14, the momentum swing kills the Redskins' hopes of a comeback. Marcus Trufant's 78 yard INT return for a TD seals the deal.

So you can dispense with the revisionist history, and stop letting your personal dislike of Campbell cloud your posts. It's totally transparent to those of us that actually watch the games, and it's really getting tiresome.

I cannot believe that I am once again going to say that dcd has a lot of credence in that last post.

This is really a simple game - you need to be able to run the ball whenever you want to and you need to be able to stop the other team from running the ball ESPECIALLY in the 4th quarter. THAT's IT


Eli is only looking good because of his O line and that running game. Eli is really not a good QB - the giants offense would be so much better with a decent QB.


This team needs another draft and we need to concentrate on getting both lines a lot better for next season - this season is really a bonus considering where we are and the fact that we might make the playoffs

The fact is that this is a team sport. It was illustrated brifly, but I will reiterate. If the o-line doesn't pull its weight, the offense will struggle. If the running back can't read, react, and hit hte holes, the offense suffers. If the QB doesn't fall within the game plan and hit his receivers at a precisely correct time, the offense suffers. If the receivers drop catchable balls, the offense suffers.

Is none of this JC's fault? Wrong, some is his fault. Is this all JC's fault? Not even close.

I hinestly believe that JC is mroe apt to succeed in a downfield passing game. I've never thought that JC reads quick enough to dink and dunk, which is a major proponent of the WCO. I don't think he fits. One of two things need to happen. The personnel adjust to the game plan or the game plan adjust to the personnel. There are no other options.

VetSkinsFan wrote:Is none of this JC's fault? Wrong, some is his fault. Is this all JC's fault? Not even close.

Exactly. But you're just a Campbell apologist.

My ONLY knock on JC is that he holds on to the ball but you can't tell if it's him or if the WR's are really getting open.

You know Moss is doubled. ey prolly blocking... That leaves ARE and Thrash to get open...

Chris Luva Luva wrote:That leaves ARE and Thrash to get open...

That's pretty true...but it's funny to think we're relying on that. And kind of sad.

Definitely surprised to see less reliance on the shotgun. It clearly worked in the past.

You both said a whole lot there


We are not playing well together and I would presume we are not executing what the coaches wanted them to do come game time - I think by now we know how good our coaches are so I feel this is on the players - they all need to play better together, not individually, together.





Thankfully we can now take a week off and go out to Seattle and take out a bunch of our frustrations on that sorry bunch

jeremyroyce wrote:I don't know if this is just me, but after that first possession that we had I thought the play calling and our offense stunk up the joint.

I don't know that the play calling stunk up the joint.
Our inability to execute the plays stunk like my ass after chili and beer.
fart.

The bottom line is this.

The Qb is the leader of the offense if not the whole team.

Team owners pay Qbs the big bucks to lead the way. To make something out of nothing. Even if that means a blitzing linebacker in his face. Even if the line has been playing poorly. Even if no one is open , he is the one to squeeze it in the tight spots.

When it comes down to it, the great ones just will it.

That is what it takes. To join the Elways, Montanas, P Mannings, Bradys, etc...
I think he could reach that level and so that is what I expect out of him.
So when I say he cost us the game I mean it. After all he is the leader of the team.

I have the games recorded. The past four games except the Pittsburg game the line gave Campbell three to four seconds on passing plays. That is plenty of time.

I reviewed the first four games and seen that Campbell was getting rid of the ball much quicker and was much more decisive.

Also if you have the luxury of reviewing the past games you can see that Campbell was running more often when no one was open as well. I really think he should do that again as well.

Anyway I hope for the Best. Hail!

PulpExposure wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:Is none of this JC's fault? Wrong, some is his fault. Is this all JC's fault? Not even close.

Exactly. But you're just a Campbell apologist.

Heh heh, you know better. I've never been 100% sold on JC, but he's our QB and I give him the benefit and the support. You know I'm still a closet Colt man...

To blame Jason Campbell for the team loses is blatant ignorance. That fact is that the o-line and pass protection have been awful. No QB can have any level of success if his o-line can't block for him. That's a fact and was addressed by Zorn on Monday.

Jim Zorn, whose offense is reliant on the short and intermediate passing game, said he saw pass routes opening up downfield but Campbell did not have enough time in the pocket.

“Those are the frustrating things,” Zorn said. “They magnify when the result is a loss.”

When JC has time in the pocket, he's far better than average. Some say he holds the ball too long. Did anyone see how much time Romo had in the pocket and how long he holds the ball? You have to hold the ball to allow the receivers time to execute their routes. But when the pass protection breaks down and a pass rush is in JC's face, all of a sudden "he holds the ball too long" because he had to take a sack. That's not JC's fault. He can't just throw the ball up without the receivers finishing their routes.

If anyone thinks a QB can always just throw the ball in 3 to 4 seconds, then they don't understand football. Some plays, yeah, but most take time to develop down field. The problem for most is that they don't see what's happening down field. The camera is always focused and the QB and the line of scrimmage and you don't see on TV what the receivers are doing down field. JC is a tall QB and can see the field quite well. But if the receivers aren't getting open and a pass rush is all in his face, he can't execute the play as designed.

I don't see a significant problem with the play calling OR JC's QB play. I see an o-line that is old and tired and can't block for JC. Rabach admitted he was getting abused on Sunday night. Jansen has been awful and Thomas and Kendall haven't been much better. Even Samuels has been struggling. The main difference is that teams like the Pies and Giants have superior o-lines. This area really needs to be addressed... and soon.

SkinsFreak wrote:Even Samuels has been struggling.

To be fair, he's been playing on one leg the past few weeks.

]quote]The main difference is that teams like the Pies and Giants have superior o-lines. This area really needs to be addressed... and soon.[/quote]

Cowboys gave up 13 sacks the past 3 games before the Skins. Their line isn't that good...it just played well against us on Sunday night.

Your point remains, though.

PulpExposure wrote:Cowboys gave up 13 sacks the past 3 games before the Skins. Their line isn't that good...it just played well against us on Sunday night.

Your point remains, though.

Yeah, you're right. I was thinking solely about their performance against the Skins Sunday night. Romo had a lot of time to throw and their o-line was opening some nice holes for Barber. You're right, they haven't been great but played well last Sunday. The Giants o-line has played very well for the past two seasons.

SkinsFreak wrote:To blame Jason Campbell for the team loses is blatant ignorance. That fact is that the o-line and pass protection have been awful. No QB can have any level of success if his o-line can't block for him. That's a fact and was addressed by Zorn on Monday.

Jim Zorn, whose offense is reliant on the short and intermediate passing game, said he saw pass routes opening up downfield but Campbell did not have enough time in the pocket.

“Those are the frustrating things,” Zorn said. “They magnify when the result is a loss.”

When JC has time in the pocket, he's far better than average. Some say he holds the ball too long. Did anyone see how much time Romo had in the pocket and how long he holds the ball? You have to hold the ball to allow the receivers time to execute their routes. But when the pass protection breaks down and a pass rush is in JC's face, all of a sudden "he holds the ball too long" because he had to take a sack. That's not JC's fault. He can't just throw the ball up without the receivers finishing their routes.

If anyone thinks a QB can always just throw the ball in 3 to 4 seconds, then they don't understand football. Some plays, yeah, but most take time to develop down field. The problem for most is that they don't see what's happening down field. The camera is always focused and the QB and the line of scrimmage and you don't see on TV what the receivers are doing down field. JC is a tall QB and can see the field quite well. But if the receivers aren't getting open and a pass rush is all in his face, he can't execute the play as designed.

I don't see a significant problem with the play calling OR JC's QB play. I see an o-line that is old and tired and can't block for JC. Rabach admitted he was getting abused on Sunday night. Jansen has been awful and Thomas and Kendall haven't been much better. Even Samuels has been struggling. The main difference is that teams like the Pies and Giants have superior o-lines. This area really needs to be addressed... and soon.

I don't think the majority is blaming JC when the playcalling has been about as vanilla as possible. 3&10, throw 5 yards. I'm sure SOME of this is JC and SOME of this is the playcalling and SOME of this is lack of o-line support.

Do any of you guys remember a quote from one of our O-linemen that basically said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "we are a team built to power run". The story was in the Post, but I don't exactly recall who said such phrase in the midst of the early-season success.

My point is this: play calling must go back to running the ball, even if you are behind in the game. That was the philosophy in the games versus the Eagles, for example, when we were behind 14-0 early in the first quarter. Same thing against the Saints. We fell behind but never gave up on the rushing attack.

During the Gibbs 2.0 years, right about this time of the year you would here the coach call out its players to return to "Redskins football". If I'm not mistaken, that has always been power rushing, even if your best back cannot go 25-30 times at it.

This is still pretty much a team built by Gibbs. It's forte is running. Always has been.

At this juncture, critical moment, I say you go back a little and find your identity with the fundamentals that have proven to be succesful regardless of the man at HC.

Play calling should emphasize that.

Don't forget that there was no tape on JZ in the beginning of the year. Now there's a 1/2 of a season. There's tape to review and tendancies to observe and plan against.

Im all for Collins replacing JC. I know that JC is the better QB if he has good protection, but sucks if he doesn't. The old men of the offensive line are exhausted. Collins needs less time and throws to spots. He would double our scoring or more.

crazyhorse1 wrote:Im all for Collins replacing JC. I know that JC is the better QB if he has good protection, but sucks if he doesn't. The old men of the offensive line are exhausted. Collins needs less time and throws to spots. He would double our scoring or more.

Gee, that makes sense. JC is the better QB if he has time, but since he doesn't, due to extremely poor pass protection, let's give the ball to the old, far less mobile QB who throws to "spots", a staple skill for QB's in Al Saunders offense. Great idea...

Yeah, good point there Vet.

But that's precisely what I'm talking about: bringing back with a vengeance the most basic aspect of the game so the offense can operate to its fullest. If this team was built to power rush, then pound the rock. I mean, surely JC can pass a little if he sees 8-men-in-the-box on a particular play, but besides that, the emphasis should be on the runnng game.

crazyhorse1 wrote:Im all for Collins replacing JC. I know that JC is the better QB if he has good protection, but sucks if he doesn't. The old men of the offensive line are exhausted. Collins needs less time and throws to spots. He would double our scoring or more.

Double it? He would probably quadruple the score. If only we could clone the 40 year old. I'd have him play every position.

[quotequote]
I don't see a significant problem with the play calling OR JC's QB play. I see an o-line that is old and tired and can't block for JC. Rabach admitted he was getting abused on Sunday night. Jansen has been awful and Thomas and Kendall haven't been much better. Even Samuels has been struggling. The main difference is that teams like the Pies and Giants have superior o-lines. This area really needs to be addressed... and soon.[/quote]

I don't think the majority is blaming JC when the playcalling has been about as vanilla as possible. 3&10, throw 5 yards. I'm sure SOME of this is JC and SOME of this is the playcalling and SOME of this is lack of o-line support.[/quote]

JC is NOT the problem. And for the most part, Zorn's play calling has been excellent considering this is his first year as a head coach.
I truely believe, as Zorn has stated, is execution. The O line has been less then stellar, but they are making mistakes, and mistakes can be corrected. They ALL have to execute, and do their jobs PERFECT.
Todd Collins is a good QB, but he is by no means "the answer" nor his he better then Campbell. I've been hard on them all year, but if you step back, and look at the season as a whole, we are in better position now then we were at this point last year, AND we have a new head coach and new passing offense. We may not make it to the play-offs this year and that's ok. Just consider what next year may bring.

I truely believe, as Zorn has stated, is execution. The O line has been less then stellar, but they are making mistakes, and mistakes can be corrected. They ALL have to execute, and do their jobs PERFECT.

You cant just blame the players for a lack of execution. That falls on the coaches as well. It's the coach's job to put the players in a position to succeed and develop a successful game plan. Zorn has been out coached the past two weeks. Like the players, he needs to step up.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

I truely believe, as Zorn has stated, is execution. The O line has been less then stellar, but they are making mistakes, and mistakes can be corrected. They ALL have to execute, and do their jobs PERFECT.

You cant just blame the players for a lack of execution. That falls on the coaches as well. It's the coach's job to put the players in a position to succeed and develop a successful. Zorn has been out coached the past two weeks. Like the players, he needs to step up.

All coaches get outcoached from time to time, but the O line has to step up and "execute."

SkinsFreak wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:Cowboys gave up 13 sacks the past 3 games before the Skins. Their line isn't that good...it just played well against us on Sunday night.

Your point remains, though.

Yeah, you're right. I was thinking solely about their performance against the Skins Sunday night. Romo had a lot of time to throw and their o-line was opening some nice holes for Barber. You're right, they haven't been great but played well last Sunday. The Giants o-line has played very well for the past two seasons.

their o-line hasn't lived up to the "best in the NFL" hype, but they are not quite as bad as the 13 sacks in 3 games would indicate. brad johnson is completely immobile since the NFL denied his petition to be allowed to use his "Hoveround" on the field, and that problem is greatly amplified by "The Brunell Factor"- that is, due to the fact that he has a rubber-band arm, defenses have no fear whatsoever of being beat deep, or even intermediate, so they put all 11 guys within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage and blitz the crap out of you.
and whereas brunell had the ability to scramble away and get close enough to the sideline that he could actually get his 10-15 foot throw to land out of bounds and avoid a sack or grounding penalty, brad johnson is probably just going to get pasted.