The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

VetSkinsFan wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:

gibbs4president wrote:

Wahoo McDaniels wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

Wahoo McDaniels wrote:Anybody who watched today's game...and the rest of the season for that matter has to put JT in the "Bust" column. Especially, as we may have just seen half of his Redskins career in the first 8 games of the season, or a quarter if he decides to "honor" us with another year. He was getting manhandled by the 2nd string tackle on the worst team in the NFL, never even getting close to the QB. Through 8 games, he has 9 tackles and has been a liability against the run...and that's not hyperbole.

I'll decide when I put him in the "Bust" column... it may happen, but not while he is still recovering.

And what if he never recovers and we've got another Archuleta on our hands? Erasmus James looked better than him today and he's just as banged up, if not more. The guy has had two substantial injuries in 8 games, this can't be good for his long term prospects...and by long term prospects, I mean the rest of the year.

The two situations are completely different:

Archuleta: The Redskins signed him in 2006 to a 6-year, $30 million deal with $10 million in guarantees. The deal made him the highest paid safety in the league at the time even though he had just shown the ability to be a relatively solid player -- nothing more. He underachieved and was shipped out of Washington after just a year to the Bears for a late-round pick.

Taylor: The Redskins traded a 2nd-round pick in 2009 and a 6th-round pick in 2010 for Taylor. He makes around $8 million this season and will make a little more next season, I believe -- he already said he'd fulfill his contract which goes through 2009. Taylor is also the active leader in career sacks among active players, not to mention the fact that the Redskins were $9 million under the cap before the trade, which made Taylor a logical replacement for the injured Daniels.

Look, it's unfortunate that Taylor isn't playing the way that every Redskins fan wants him to, but don't compare him to Archuleta. Archuleta was healthy in Washington, but he didn't play well and didn't fit into the defensive scheme. Taylor isn't even close to being 100%, but he's still giving his all each week and has still managed to contribute by tipping some passes at the line.

Should he sit out if he's not helping the team? Maybe. But the defense is playing very well right now and Taylor has at least added something to that.

The Redskins aren't hurt by the move, and while it sucks to lose a 2nd-round pick, the deal could have been much more lopsided looking at a trade like the one the Cowboys made for Roy Williams.

Hopefully Taylor can get healthy soon...

The Cowboys got a pro bowl receiver who is still in his prime. He has already contributed to a win in Dallas.

Lets be real we brought Jason Taylor here to get Sacks. Plain and simple he is being paid to get to the QB. We gave up a second round pick and gave him a huge salary to do one thing. Get to the QB.

I hope he gets healthy because if he already is healthy then that just sucks. I also think he should be playing the opposite side. Why are we playing him primarily on the strong side??

For one Carter did a good job on the strong side last year. Carter produced on the strong side last year. Jason Taylor has always played the weak side.

Blache has done a fantastic job this year but this move I just dont get. Carter did fine at the strong side so let Taylor play where he has always played. Taylor made the pro bowl many times playing the weak side. Really does not make any sense.

Any time I've paid attention, Carter played weak side last year; Daniels played strong. In 3rd down packages, Daniels moved inside to DT and then Washington was on the strong end.

Man I could have sworn he played the strong side last year. Oops my bad. Anyhow I still feel Jason Taylor should get healthy before stepping on the field and move to the weak side. Carter seems more stout at the point of attack.

I am not angry or calling Jason Taylor a bust. I am happy with how the team is doing.

But, I am not going to act like the Jason Taylor has been everything we hoped him to be. If he is injured then yes please take the time to get healthy. Which I believe he is going to do in the upcoming weeks.

It is obvious watching the games how much better this team would be with a pass rush. It amazes me how our defense is still able to stop teams without a consistent pass rush.

Well hopefully Jason Taylor takes four to five games off and get ready for what I hope is a playoff run. I think we can get by without him for now.

Answer the question for me again...why did we draft Malcolm Kelly rather than a pass rushing end?

I watched Quentin Groves play yesterday for JAX and he looked like he could have helped the Skins Defense right away. BTW, he was the guy who picked right after Malcolm Kelly.

WRT Taylor, this has Cerrato/Snyder written all over it. Everybody who has said that he doesn't fit into Blache's defense is exactly correct. But then again, why would you pick up a player who doesn't fit into your defense? With Blache's unit playing the way they are, the last thing that you are going to do is change your defense so that JT can have more of an impact.

Unless of course you want to have a repeat of JT's 2007 season, where his team plays horribly and he has another Pro Bowl season with 11 sacks and an INT and his defense ranked last in the NFL.

Wahoo McDaniels wrote:Everybody who has said that he doesn't fit into Blache's defense is exactly correct. But then again, why would you pick up a player who doesn't fit into your defense? With Blache's unit playing the way they are, the last thing that you are going to do is change your defense so that JT can have more of an impact.

Who are the credible people who said he wouldn't fit?

What is it EXACTLY about him that doesn't make him a good fit in this defense?

What would have to be changed about this defense to accommodate Jason?

Just curious...

Wahoo McDaniels wrote:I watched Quentin Groves play yesterday for JAX and he looked like he could have helped the Skins Defense right away. BTW, he was the guy who picked right after Malcolm Kelly.

Groves has eight tackles all year and only 1.5 sacks, how would that have helped right away. He has 1 tackle and a half sack more than D Evans

Wahoo McDaniels wrote:WRT Taylor, this has Cerrato/Snyder written all over it. Everybody who has said that he doesn't fit into Blache's defense is exactly correct. But then again, why would you pick up a player who doesn't fit into your defense? With Blache's unit playing the way they are, the last thing that you are going to do is change your defense so that JT can have more of an impact.

Unless of course you want to have a repeat of JT's 2007 season, where his team plays horribly and he has another Pro Bowl season with 11 sacks and an INT and his defense ranked last in the NFL.

Or you could spend draft pick on a guy that hasn't been in any pro scheme, even worst you can do what the Jags did and trade picks to move up to get Groves

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Wahoo McDaniels wrote:Everybody who has said that he doesn't fit into Blache's defense is exactly correct. But then again, why would you pick up a player who doesn't fit into your defense? With Blache's unit playing the way they are, the last thing that you are going to do is change your defense so that JT can have more of an impact.

Who are the credible people who said he wouldn't fit?

What is it EXACTLY about him that doesn't make him a good fit in this defense?

What would have to be changed about this defense to accommodate Jason?

Just curious...

1. Taylor is playing at around 240 pounds. That is really small for a defensive end, especially one that we have playing on the strong side.

2. Taylor has never in his career been an every down player on the strong side of the line. That's just not the way that he has been. He started his career on the weak side and the last few seasons played a hybrid lb/de position and was moved all over the field to take advantage of matchups. He won defensive player of the year being used in this manner. Now in his 12th season at the age of 34 we are asking him to play a position that he has never played on a full-time basis. Doesn't make much sense to do this with a player that we traded two draft picks for.

3. Much more so than Gregg Williams, Blache has simplified the defense somewhat and instead of relying on schemes and intricate blitzes, he plays a much more straight up style of defense. Moving Taylor around the field and using him as a 3-4 lb doesn't appear to fit in with what Blache is doing. This isn't a knock on Blache. It's just that with the way that he calls his defense he isn't going to use Taylor the way that he was used the past few seasons in Miami, where he was tremendously succesful.

Thanks, CaneSkins26, you beat me to the punch. A couple of other points. As for who said that he would be a bust, I was referring to those on the board (myself included), who didn't understand the logic behind the trade except he was available for a steep price Snyder was willing to pay. This is a message board, there are no credible people, just fans with access to a computer and an opinion. I didn't think I had to provide source material by quoting the holy football trinity of John Madden, Peter King and Dr. Z to make a statement.

As for what I would change to accommodate Taylor... the answer is nothing. The defense is playing great as a whole Fletcher, McIntosh and Rogers have been amazing all year. But, JT has been ineffective. I would accommodate him by not playing him. D. Evans has been more than capable of doing everything that JT has and more. If he's hurt, sit him and wait for him to get better. If it really is the calf or the knee or whatever then we'll have to wait and see if he can get himself in some sort of condition to contribute.

Why are we playing a guy who only at 60% (his words). I'm sick of watching the same thing every snap. Speed rush off the end, The Tackle hits him in the chest and he drops back and gets his hands up. The 2nd string tackle of the Lions absolutely destroyed him. At least Erasmus drew a holding penalty on him due to the pressure he got.

As for my comment on Groves over Taylor...... As with Carter, its not how many tackles or sacks you get, it's the impact you have on the game. For instance, Andre Carter, I think, is having a good year, as is Griffin, Golston and Montgomery. Carter's stats don't back it up but he's consistently creating havoc in the backfield. The same thing for Groves. Watching the game, Groves was getting consistent pressure on the Browns...something JT couldn't do. And BTW, we wouldn't have had to move up in the draft to get him...we were already there. All we would have had to do is not pick a receiver who most teams had decided not to draft due to lingering knee concerns.

As a side note, the frustration with this move also has something to do with the Skins drafts. They never make sense and we never put ourselves in position for long term success. Always one and two year quick fixes with trades for 34 year olds.

Here's a quick comparison.... the Skins and the Giants. You tell me who's draft department is doing their job. We marvel at the Skins getting Chris Horton in the 7th Round. The Giants seem to have a great draft every year. That's how you win Super Bowls. Besides the 2006 draft where we were able to get some talent in the late rounds (and of course Horton and HB), we have been unable to locate contributors in the 4th round and on.... mainly 'cause we throw 'em away for aging former superstars.

Giants Draft 2003-2008
2008
1 Kenny Phillips DB Miami (FL)
2 Terrell Thomas USC
3 Mario Manningham WR Michigan
4 Bryan Kehl LB BYU
5 Jonathan Goff LB Vanderbilt
6 Andre Woodson QB Kentucky
6 Robert Henderson DE Southern Miss

2007
1 Aaron Ross DB Texas
2 Steve Smith WR USC
3 Jay Alford DT Penn State
4 Zak DeOssie LB Brown
5 Kevin Boss TE West. Oregon
6 Adam Koets T Oregon State
7 Michael Johnson Arizona
7 Ahmad Bradshaw RB Marshall

2006
1 32 Mathias Kiwanuka DE Boston College
2 44 Sinorice Moss WR Miami (FL)
3 96 Gerris Wilkinson LB Georgia Tech
4 124 Barry Cofield DT Northwestern
4 129 Guy Whimper DE East Carolina
5 158 Charlie Peprah DB Alabama
7 232 Gerrick McPhearson DB Maryland

2005
2 43 Corey Webster DB LSU
3 74 Justin Tuck DE Notre Dame
4 110 Brandon Jacobs RB Southern Illinois
6 186 Eric Moore DE Florida State

2004
1 4 Philip Rivers QB North Carolina State
2 34 Chris Snee G Boston College
4 97 Reggie Torbor LB Auburn
5 136 Gibril Wilson DB Tennessee
6 168 Jamaar Taylor WR Texas A&M
7 203 Drew Strojny T Duke
7 253 Isaac Hilton DE Hampton

2003
1 25 William Joseph DT Miami (FL)
2 56 Osi Umenyiora DE Troy State
3 91 Visanthe Shiancoe TE Morgan State
4 123 Roderick Babers DB Texas
5 160 David Diehl G Illinois
6 199 Willie Ponder WR Southeast Missouri State
6 207 Frank Walker DB Tuskegee
6 David Tyree WR Syracuse
7 Charles Drake DB Michigan
7 249 Wayne Lucier Colorado

Skins Draft 2003-2008
2008
2 34 Devin Thomas WR Michigan State
2 48 Fred Davis TE USC
2 51 Malcolm Kelly WR Oklahoma
3 96 Chad Rinehart T Northern Iowa
4 124 Justin Tryon DB Arizona State
6 168 Durant Brooks P Georgia Tech
6 180 Kareem Moore DB Nicholls State
6 186 Colt Brennan QB Hawaii
7 242 Rob Jackson DE Kansas State
7 249 Chris Horton DB UCLA

2007
1 6 LaRon Landry DB LSU
5 143 Dallas Sartz LB USC
6 179 H.B. Blades LB Pittsburgh
6 205 Jordan Palmer QB Texas-El Paso
7 216 Tyler Ecker TE Michigan

2006
2 35 Rocky McIntosh LB Miami (FL)
5 153 Anthony Montgomery NT Minnesota
6 173 Reed Doughty DB Northern Colorado
6 196 Kedric Golston DT Georgia
7 230 Kili Lefotu G Arizona
7 250 Kevin Simon LB Tennessee

2005
1 9 Carlos Rogers DB Auburn
1 25 Jason Campbell QB Auburn
4 120 Manuel White RB UCLA
5 154 Robert McCune LB Louisville
6 183 Jared Newberry LB Stanford
7 222 Nehemiah Broughton FB The Citadel

2004
1 5 Sean Taylor DB Miami (FL)
3 81 Chris ey TE Utah State
5 151 Mark Wilson TE California
6 180 Jim Molinaro T Notre Dame

2003
2 44 Taylor Jacobs WR Florida
3 81 Derrick Dockery G Texas
7 232 Gibran Hamdan QB Indiana

Wahoo McDaniels wrote:The Giants seem to have a great draft every year. That's how you win Super Bowls. Besides the 2006 draft where we were able to get some talent in the late rounds (and of course Horton and HB), we have been unable to locate contributors in the 4th round and on.... mainly 'cause we throw 'em away for aging former superstars.

Really?

Ok, throw out 2008, as it's too early to judge a draft class after 8 games.

Let's look at rounds 4 and later of the other drafts they've had.

2007
4 Zak DeOssie LB Brown
5 Kevin Boss TE West. Oregon
6 Adam Koets T Oregon State
7 Michael Johnson Arizona
7 Ahmad Bradshaw RB Marshall

DeOssie is a backup linebacker, to some schmo named Danny Clark they brought in. Boss is starting, and has 9 catches this year as a starting TE. Johnson is their starting safety (over Kenny Phillips), and Bradshaw contributes. I'd say this worked out very well for them overall.

2006
4 124 Barry Cofield DT Northwestern
4 129 Guy Whimper DE East Carolina
5 158 Charlie Peprah DB Alabama
7 232 Gerrick McPhearson DB Maryland

Cofield is a starting DT. The other 3 aren't on the team.

2005
4 110 Brandon Jacobs RB Southern Illinois
6 186 Eric Moore DE Florida State

Jacobs is working out very well. Moore isn't on the team.

2004
4 97 Reggie Torbor LB Auburn
5 136 Gibril Wilson DB Tennessee
6 168 Jamaar Taylor WR Texas A&M
7 203 Drew Strojny T Duke
7 253 Isaac Hilton DE Hampton

Not a single player left on the team.

2003
4 123 Roderick Babers DB Texas
5 160 David Diehl G Illinois
6 199 Willie Ponder WR Southeast Missouri State
6 207 Frank Walker DB Tuskegee
6 David Tyree WR Syracuse
7 Charles Drake DB Michigan
7 249 Wayne Lucier Colorado

Diehl is their starting guard. Tyree is a special teamer (and like 12th on the WR depth chart). Though he had a monster Super Bowl play. Everyone else isn't on their team.

Redskins?

2007
5 143 Dallas Sartz LB USC
6 179 H.B. Blades LB Pittsburgh
6 205 Jordan Palmer QB Texas-El Paso
7 216 Tyler Ecker TE Michigan

Blades is the only one on the team.

2006
5 153 Anthony Montgomery NT Minnesota
6 173 Reed Doughty DB Northern Colorado
6 196 Kedric Golston DT Georgia
7 230 Kili Lefotu G Arizona
7 250 Kevin Simon LB Tennessee

Doughty, Golston, and Montgomery all on the team.

2005
4 120 Manuel White RB UCLA
5 154 Robert McCune LB Louisville
6 183 Jared Newberry LB Stanford
7 222 Nehemiah Broughton FB The Citadel

Bust draft.

2004
5 151 Mark Wilson TE California
6 180 Jim Molinaro T Notre Dame

Bust draft.

2003
7 232 Gibran Hamdan QB Indiana

Yeah.

Overall, those drafts produced 5 starters for the Giants, out of 23 choices (21%). The Redskins have 3 starters from 16 choices (19%, counting Reed as a starter, since he's started over half a season for us).

What strikes me overall from the comparison is that the Redskins just don't have 4th round draft picks...and that's where 2 of the Giant's 5 starters were drafted (Cofield and Jacobs).

Notably, look at how many of their 1st and 2nd round picks haven't turned out as they would have liked. Sinorice Moss is buried on the depth chart and can't stay healthy. Kenny Phillips is a backup. William Joseph was cut. Compared to the Skins, where only Taylor Jacobs didn't work out...

If you look at the Redskins drafts critically, you'll see that the Redskins had virtually no draft choices in the early years, but lately, the Redskins have been conserving draft choices. Although I love the man, I squarely believe this is the result of Joe Gibbs valuing vets over young players early on, then realizing how this policy utterly depletes your team of depth. If you look at just the 2006 and 2007 drafts, you'll see that 4 of the 9 choices are with the Skins, and 3 of them have been starters. Big improvement.

And then, look at the 2008 draft, the FO traded down for MORE draft choices, instead of picking at 21. And more importantly, NO high priced free agents.

It's all evidence that points towards the Skins FO learning that you build through the draft, not free agency or trade.

Yes, they traded for Taylor, but there is no way that anyone could have predicted reliably that a man who last missed a game with injury in 1999 would be hit so hard with what is in essence, a freak injury. For a man who was DPOY 2 years ago, and considering the situation the Skins were in (desperate need for a DE), a 2nd wasn't horrible to give up. Remember, the Dolphins were holding out for a 1st as recently as the draft.

And I agree; if Taylor is 60%, sit the man until he's healthy. He's not contributing much in his state, and I'm not sure that sitting him out until he's healthy would hurt the defense very much (or...at all).

pulp, you got me dizzy with numbers hehehe. Good stuff.

I understand everyone's arguements here, but the fact is we gave up too much for him. A second and sixth rounder (I believe it was a 6th, but correct me if I am wrong) were too much. JT is 34 years old and has maybe one more year left. This year is basically shot for JT, so we gave up two draft picks for one (two at best) years service of an aging DE. The fact that the Dolphins were holding out for a first rounder and didn't get it only shows that they over-priced JT. Didn't JT want to quite football and go to hollywood anyway? Who knows, this could be his last year.

I also understand that JT has never had an injury up to this point, but you have to consider that when making the trade and factor in that he is 34 years old. I wonder how his calf would be feeling if he were 24. Sure, it may be the same, but youth tends to help you heal quicker. Regardless, I understand that you could not have made this prediction (but it should have been a consideration based on his age).

Also, the fact that our reserve DEs are performing at the same level as JT only supports the fact that JT isn't an upgrade and the trade was unneccessary.

All in all, I would love to say that the jury is still out on this trade, but I am not sure it is. JT has only one or two half-decent years left and who knows, he may retire after this year to pursue other interests. I don't see a silver lining here. There may be one, but the percentages of it happening are small.

As far as the draft picks go --- it is no secret that superbowls are won with a core group of drafted players. Giving up draft picks compromises your ability to build a franchise. I am of the opinion that you should never trade draft picks. I would have preferred to select a second round DE (or another player at a different position of need) that isn't 34 and see where that would have taken us.

Do you remember back in the 90s when the Bullets would trade for aging stars like Rod Strickland, Mark Price, and Mitch Richmond? They also traded a plethora of draft picks for Chris Weber. That is the best way to crush a franchise. While I don't see us doing that, I just don't want to see this becoming a habit.

I look forward to the late season push when JT starts making big plays and many people in this thread are forced to equivocate and backtrack.

Wahoo McDaniels wrote:Thanks, CaneSkins26, you beat me to the punch. A couple of other points. As for who said that he would be a bust, I was referring to those on the board (myself included), who didn't understand the logic behind the trade except he was available for a steep price Snyder was willing to pay. This is a message board, there are no credible people, just fans with access to a computer and an opinion. I didn't think I had to provide source material by quoting the holy football trinity of John Madden, Peter King and Dr. Z to make a statement.

As for what I would change to accommodate Taylor... the answer is nothing. The defense is playing great as a whole Fletcher, McIntosh and Rogers have been amazing all year. But, JT has been ineffective. I would accommodate him by not playing him. D. Evans has been more than capable of doing everything that JT has and more. If he's hurt, sit him and wait for him to get better. If it really is the calf or the knee or whatever then we'll have to wait and see if he can get himself in some sort of condition to contribute.

Why are we playing a guy who only at 60% (his words). I'm sick of watching the same thing every snap. Speed rush off the end, The Tackle hits him in the chest and he drops back and gets his hands up. The 2nd string tackle of the Lions absolutely destroyed him. At least Erasmus drew a holding penalty on him due to the pressure he got.

As for my comment on Groves over Taylor...... As with Carter, its not how many tackles or sacks you get, it's the impact you have on the game. For instance, Andre Carter, I think, is having a good year, as is Griffin, Golston and Montgomery. Carter's stats don't back it up but he's consistently creating havoc in the backfield. The same thing for Groves. Watching the game, Groves was getting consistent pressure on the Browns...something JT couldn't do. And BTW, we wouldn't have had to move up in the draft to get him...we were already there. All we would have had to do is not pick a receiver who most teams had decided not to draft due to lingering knee concerns.

As a side note, the frustration with this move also has something to do with the Skins drafts. They never make sense and we never put ourselves in position for long term success. Always one and two year quick fixes with trades for 34 year olds.

Here's a quick comparison.... the Skins and the Giants. You tell me who's draft department is doing their job. We marvel at the Skins getting Chris Horton in the 7th Round. The Giants seem to have a great draft every year. That's how you win Super Bowls. Besides the 2006 draft where we were able to get some talent in the late rounds (and of course Horton and HB), we have been unable to locate contributors in the 4th round and on.... mainly 'cause we throw 'em away for aging former superstars.

Giants Draft 2003-2008
2008
1 Kenny Phillips DB Miami (FL)
2 Terrell Thomas USC
3 Mario Manningham WR Michigan
4 Bryan Kehl LB BYU
5 Jonathan Goff LB Vanderbilt
6 Andre Woodson QB Kentucky
6 Robert Henderson DE Southern Miss

2007
1 Aaron Ross DB Texas
2 Steve Smith WR USC
3 Jay Alford DT Penn State
4 Zak DeOssie LB Brown
5 Kevin Boss TE West. Oregon
6 Adam Koets T Oregon State
7 Michael Johnson Arizona
7 Ahmad Bradshaw RB Marshall

2006
1 32 Mathias Kiwanuka DE Boston College
2 44 Sinorice Moss WR Miami (FL)
3 96 Gerris Wilkinson LB Georgia Tech
4 124 Barry Cofield DT Northwestern
4 129 Guy Whimper DE East Carolina
5 158 Charlie Peprah DB Alabama
7 232 Gerrick McPhearson DB Maryland

2005
2 43 Corey Webster DB LSU
3 74 Justin Tuck DE Notre Dame
4 110 Brandon Jacobs RB Southern Illinois
6 186 Eric Moore DE Florida State

2004
1 4 Philip Rivers QB North Carolina State
2 34 Chris Snee G Boston College
4 97 Reggie Torbor LB Auburn
5 136 Gibril Wilson DB Tennessee
6 168 Jamaar Taylor WR Texas A&M
7 203 Drew Strojny T Duke
7 253 Isaac Hilton DE Hampton

2003
1 25 William Joseph DT Miami (FL)
2 56 Osi Umenyiora DE Troy State
3 91 Visanthe Shiancoe TE Morgan State
4 123 Roderick Babers DB Texas
5 160 David Diehl G Illinois
6 199 Willie Ponder WR Southeast Missouri State
6 207 Frank Walker DB Tuskegee
6 David Tyree WR Syracuse
7 Charles Drake DB Michigan
7 249 Wayne Lucier Colorado

Skins Draft 2003-2008
2008
2 34 Devin Thomas WR Michigan State
2 48 Fred Davis TE USC
2 51 Malcolm Kelly WR Oklahoma
3 96 Chad Rinehart T Northern Iowa
4 124 Justin Tryon DB Arizona State
6 168 Durant Brooks P Georgia Tech
6 180 Kareem Moore DB Nicholls State
6 186 Colt Brennan QB Hawaii
7 242 Rob Jackson DE Kansas State
7 249 Chris Horton DB UCLA

2007
1 6 LaRon Landry DB LSU
5 143 Dallas Sartz LB USC
6 179 H.B. Blades LB Pittsburgh
6 205 Jordan Palmer QB Texas-El Paso
7 216 Tyler Ecker TE Michigan

2006
2 35 Rocky McIntosh LB Miami (FL)
5 153 Anthony Montgomery NT Minnesota
6 173 Reed Doughty DB Northern Colorado
6 196 Kedric Golston DT Georgia
7 230 Kili Lefotu G Arizona
7 250 Kevin Simon LB Tennessee

2005
1 9 Carlos Rogers DB Auburn
1 25 Jason Campbell QB Auburn
4 120 Manuel White RB UCLA
5 154 Robert McCune LB Louisville
6 183 Jared Newberry LB Stanford
7 222 Nehemiah Broughton FB The Citadel

2004
1 5 Sean Taylor DB Miami (FL)
3 81 Chris ey TE Utah State
5 151 Mark Wilson TE California
6 180 Jim Molinaro T Notre Dame

2003
2 44 Taylor Jacobs WR Florida
3 81 Derrick Dockery G Texas
7 232 Gibran Hamdan QB Indiana

Overall, I'd say we had the better drafts.

markshark84 wrote:I don't see a silver lining here. There may be one, but the percentages of it happening are small.

The silver lining is that by trading for JT, his signing bonuses were paid by the Fish, at the time of the trade. We are only beholden for his base salary. Granted, it is high, but if we cut him or he retires, we owe him nothing, and there is no dead money cap hit in future years.

Fios wrote:I look forward to the late season push when JT starts making big plays and many people in this thread are forced to equivocate and backtrack.

I, too, hope this happens. And if it does, you won't hear me backtracking. My position is that we gave up too much for him at the time of trade. Giving up draft picks is not a good way to build a winning franchise. Giving up 2 draft picks for a 34 year old is just not good practice.

But to be honest, what has he done that gives you the idea he will start beasting out this year? I have seen nothing --- just a couple of tipped passes. He just doesn't seem to fit in with the defense.

In repsonse, I would love to hear the people that applaud and supported this trade to come back after the season and admit it was a poor move by management. We are 8 games into the season. At this rate, we are paying 500k per tackle. Could you imagine if that is what Fletcher was charging?

YEAH, TAYLOR IS A BUSTER....

HE ......WILL........BUST.........YOUR ..............FACE............IN

THAT'S HOW GOOD HE IS - WHEN HEALTHY

Did anyone else read that in a different order? I was shocked. lol

i hope this guy gets healthy....he needs to be if we are going to make any run this year

Gibbs4Life wrote:What week is this? and JT is a non factor...his contract is too big to be a bystander, Parcells was smart and we we're over-anxious, BAD VINNY BAD VINNY! Our draft is rapidly approaching bust status with exception of horton. I had a dream we traded Colt Brennan to the colts, DONT DO IT! In my dream it was like we had to because we made a huge commitment to Campbell, I know this is a contract year for him, but I want Colt to stay and have a chance to grow with US.

Wow, I can't believe a discussion of such a mind numbingly stupid post has gone on so long. Our draft is a bust already? Amazing, pros say it takes years to evaluate a class and we're blessed with such knowledge in the middle of the first year. We're 6-2 and we already know we can chalk up JT as a failure rather then seeing if we can get him healthy and what he could do add as we approach and go in the playoffs?

BTW, Colt was a bust, he had half a season and hasn't done ANYTHING yet. We need to CUT him to make a point, not trade him. You do not come here and LEARN, you come here and perform day one out of College or you're a bust and run out of here with EXTREME prejudice!

markshark84 wrote:My position is that we gave up too much for him at the time of trade

Well, the NFL is a roll of the dice. But guys like JT are the ones who at playoff time can put you over the top and he's at a position to do it. Did you read the Post article about the time between the injuries and the guys on both sides he got to jump early? That OL's fear him that much shows what we got. If you want guarantees, sports isn't the place to go. Every team in the NFC is beatable. I can't imagine how getting a potential game changer like him is a bad move, but we'll just have to disagree.

Fios wrote:I look forward to the late season push when JT starts making big plays and many people in this thread are forced to equivocate and backtrack.

So do I. Nothing would make me happier.

Fios wrote:I look forward to the late season push when JT starts making big plays and many people in this thread are forced to equivocate and backtrack.

Do you think that this will happen with him playing on the weak side or do you see the Skins using him the way that he has successfully been used over the past few seasons in Miami?

JSPB22 wrote:

Wahoo McDaniels wrote:Thanks, CaneSkins26, you beat me to the punch. A couple of other points. As for who said that he would be a bust, I was referring to those on the board (myself included), who didn't understand the logic behind the trade except he was available for a steep price Snyder was willing to pay. This is a message board, there are no credible people, just fans with access to a computer and an opinion. I didn't think I had to provide source material by quoting the holy football trinity of John Madden, Peter King and Dr. Z to make a statement.

As for what I would change to accommodate Taylor... the answer is nothing. The defense is playing great as a whole Fletcher, McIntosh and Rogers have been amazing all year. But, JT has been ineffective. I would accommodate him by not playing him. D. Evans has been more than capable of doing everything that JT has and more. If he's hurt, sit him and wait for him to get better. If it really is the calf or the knee or whatever then we'll have to wait and see if he can get himself in some sort of condition to contribute.

Why are we playing a guy who only at 60% (his words). I'm sick of watching the same thing every snap. Speed rush off the end, The Tackle hits him in the chest and he drops back and gets his hands up. The 2nd string tackle of the Lions absolutely destroyed him. At least Erasmus drew a holding penalty on him due to the pressure he got.

As for my comment on Groves over Taylor...... As with Carter, its not how many tackles or sacks you get, it's the impact you have on the game. For instance, Andre Carter, I think, is having a good year, as is Griffin, Golston and Montgomery. Carter's stats don't back it up but he's consistently creating havoc in the backfield. The same thing for Groves. Watching the game, Groves was getting consistent pressure on the Browns...something JT couldn't do. And BTW, we wouldn't have had to move up in the draft to get him...we were already there. All we would have had to do is not pick a receiver who most teams had decided not to draft due to lingering knee concerns.

As a side note, the frustration with this move also has something to do with the Skins drafts. They never make sense and we never put ourselves in position for long term success. Always one and two year quick fixes with trades for 34 year olds.

Here's a quick comparison.... the Skins and the Giants. You tell me who's draft department is doing their job. We marvel at the Skins getting Chris Horton in the 7th Round. The Giants seem to have a great draft every year. That's how you win Super Bowls. Besides the 2006 draft where we were able to get some talent in the late rounds (and of course Horton and HB), we have been unable to locate contributors in the 4th round and on.... mainly 'cause we throw 'em away for aging former superstars.

Giants Draft 2003-2008
2008
1 Kenny Phillips DB Miami (FL)
2 Terrell Thomas USC
3 Mario Manningham WR Michigan
4 Bryan Kehl LB BYU
5 Jonathan Goff LB Vanderbilt
6 Andre Woodson QB Kentucky
6 Robert Henderson DE Southern Miss

2007
1 Aaron Ross DB Texas
2 Steve Smith WR USC
3 Jay Alford DT Penn State
4 Zak DeOssie LB Brown
5 Kevin Boss TE West. Oregon
6 Adam Koets T Oregon State
7 Michael Johnson Arizona
7 Ahmad Bradshaw RB Marshall

2006
1 32 Mathias Kiwanuka DE Boston College
2 44 Sinorice Moss WR Miami (FL)
3 96 Gerris Wilkinson LB Georgia Tech
4 124 Barry Cofield DT Northwestern
4 129 Guy Whimper DE East Carolina
5 158 Charlie Peprah DB Alabama
7 232 Gerrick McPhearson DB Maryland

2005
2 43 Corey Webster DB LSU
3 74 Justin Tuck DE Notre Dame
4 110 Brandon Jacobs RB Southern Illinois
6 186 Eric Moore DE Florida State

2004
1 4 Philip Rivers QB North Carolina State
2 34 Chris Snee G Boston College
4 97 Reggie Torbor LB Auburn
5 136 Gibril Wilson DB Tennessee
6 168 Jamaar Taylor WR Texas A&M
7 203 Drew Strojny T Duke
7 253 Isaac Hilton DE Hampton

2003
1 25 William Joseph DT Miami (FL)
2 56 Osi Umenyiora DE Troy State
3 91 Visanthe Shiancoe TE Morgan State
4 123 Roderick Babers DB Texas
5 160 David Diehl G Illinois
6 199 Willie Ponder WR Southeast Missouri State
6 207 Frank Walker DB Tuskegee
6 David Tyree WR Syracuse
7 Charles Drake DB Michigan
7 249 Wayne Lucier Colorado

Skins Draft 2003-2008
2008
2 34 Devin Thomas WR Michigan State
2 48 Fred Davis TE USC
2 51 Malcolm Kelly WR Oklahoma
3 96 Chad Rinehart T Northern Iowa
4 124 Justin Tryon DB Arizona State
6 168 Durant Brooks P Georgia Tech
6 180 Kareem Moore DB Nicholls State
6 186 Colt Brennan QB Hawaii
7 242 Rob Jackson DE Kansas State
7 249 Chris Horton DB UCLA

2007
1 6 LaRon Landry DB LSU
5 143 Dallas Sartz LB USC
6 179 H.B. Blades LB Pittsburgh
6 205 Jordan Palmer QB Texas-El Paso
7 216 Tyler Ecker TE Michigan

2006
2 35 Rocky McIntosh LB Miami (FL)
5 153 Anthony Montgomery NT Minnesota
6 173 Reed Doughty DB Northern Colorado
6 196 Kedric Golston DT Georgia
7 230 Kili Lefotu G Arizona
7 250 Kevin Simon LB Tennessee

2005
1 9 Carlos Rogers DB Auburn
1 25 Jason Campbell QB Auburn
4 120 Manuel White RB UCLA
5 154 Robert McCune LB Louisville
6 183 Jared Newberry LB Stanford
7 222 Nehemiah Broughton FB The Citadel

2004
1 5 Sean Taylor DB Miami (FL)
3 81 Chris ey TE Utah State
5 151 Mark Wilson TE California
6 180 Jim Molinaro T Notre Dame

2003
2 44 Taylor Jacobs WR Florida
3 81 Derrick Dockery G Texas
7 232 Gibran Hamdan QB Indiana

Overall, I'd say we had the better drafts.

Really? I counted 17 starter quality players by the giants compared to 13 by us. However, we did have fewer picks. So maybe it evens out.

I look forward to the late season push when JT starts making big plays and many people in this thread are forced to equivocate and backtrack.

Had we just signed him this week, this statement would be reasonable; however being that JT has been here since training camp I think you've just proved my point for me.
We've given a second and a sixth and 8mil this season for a guy we hope can give us a "late season push". That's not what he was brought here for. JT was brought in to be an every down hand in dirt DE. So far we've gotten Mr. Irrelevant and at best Mr. Injury.
Look even if his injury is just an anomilie and not a sign that he now sucks, it still amounts to a bust of a move. I pray he helps us! Please JT HELP OUT!!! But I've been hoping for that since we signed him.
I make a concerted effort to watch him when he's in there and I just see a guy getting out played, JT doesn't seem to be the answer at DE. I like Evans better. Has Erasmus even been in there? In the offseason we have to look at DE.

In the offseason we have to look at DE.

We've needed to look at the dline for a few years now and yet we constantly ignore the position during the draft.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

In the offseason we have to look at DE.

We've needed to look at the dline for a few years now and yet we constantly ignore the position during the draft.

agreed