The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

^^^ I guess he felt that it was point worth repeating

Mel Kiper is paid to be a part of the entertainment that surrounds the NFL at draft time - his opinion is not valued or even thought about by anybody of the coaches or scouts whose opinions and evaluations have to be viable or they will lose their jobs.

That being said I think that everyone (both the scouts and NFL FO types) will agree that the Redskins' were one of a few teams that really handled this whole draft season very well and look like they added several players that could make the team this year.

If this team is going to get younger, faster and be more dominant we have to acquire many players and stop the thought process that involves looking for a few talented players each year - I think the whole Chad Johnson, Williams and Boldin scene was a smokescreen - we are not going to be a better team by adding superstars each year and hoping that the rest of the team will be better for it. We will only get to be better if our scouts and FO can have successful drafts of 5 or 6 players who make the team each year and have 2 or 3 of those become very good football players for our team each year.

When you add in the successful trades and free agent acquisitions then you ensure long term domination of the NFL.

We need to consider the progress we have made and not be impatient to get to where we belong - we can only do that by adding the depth and youth that comes from successful drafts.

This was a great start for our team and our FO - hopefully Cerrato and his bunch have added a bunch of really good players and will continue to value each and every draft pick.

SkinsJock wrote:Mel Kiper is paid to be a part of the entertainment that surrounds the NFL at draft time - his opinion is not valued or even thought about by anybody of the coaches or scouts whose opinions and evaluations have to be viable or they will lose their jobs.

I don't particularly care for Kiper. I actually think he's a blowhole. However, Kiper is one of the very few draft analysts that would be hired by any number of teams as a scout, a player personnel manager, or a general manager. He thinks the same way NFL front offices do. He isn't always right, but neither are NFL front offices.

Kiper has actually been offered several NFL positions, but he always turns them down. I have no idea why.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

GSPODS wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

GSPODS wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:Now I know you're just making retarded statements to get a reaction from other people. At least I hope that is the reason for this totally rediculous post.

Some where between BL and AA, just a plain stupid post.

What I am doing is stating an opinion. What you are doing is claiming you disagree with my opinion, without offering any explanation for why you disagree. I expected people to disagree. I was also hoping for more substance than "retarded" and "rediculous." Why is my opinion "retarded" and "rediculous?"

Is that a retorecle questions? Are you truely being serious?

If so I will submit that ARE had 51 catches for 728 yard and a 14.3 average and two 100 yard games. Not too shabby for a guy that played nicked up and was signed to be a #3 WR and PR (I agree that he is opreety bad a a PR).

The guy that was signed to be the #2 WR had 2 receptions and 14 yards and was benched for most of the season because of his poor attitude while ARE played hurt!

Yeah I can see how ARE resembles BL

Do I really need to go into AA?

How about Randle El and Lloyd thrived in one system for a short amount of time. Both were overpaid to underperform by the Redskins as free agents.
Archuleta was overpaid to play a position other than his natural one. So was Randle El.

So AA was forced to play safety, a position he had played his whole professional career, and was forced to play out of position.

I never did buy the fact that they only brought him in to play run support and blitz and only someone very gullable would have.

GSPODS wrote:Most good teams third receivers had more catches than Randle El last season. Welker had 112. So did Houshmandzadeh as a #2. The Redskins entire wide receiving group had fewer catches last season than Moss and Welker, or Houshmandzadeh and Johnson.

You name two of the best #2 WR in the NFL and not #3 WRs.

GSPODS wrote:Randle El is at least 30 receptions short of being a #2 wide receiver, and he is at least twenty catches short of being a #3, but he is being paid as a #1 wide receiver.

I could go on but do I really need to?

You are just dead wrong on this. You wanted me to compare ARE to other good teams' #2 and #3 WR, well here you go. Here are the eleven of the playoff teams from last year and their #2 and #3 WRs (and some #1). ARE was on par (or better than) almost every #2 and was better than EVERY #3 WR.

NE #3 WR was Donte Stallworth 46 catches/697 yards
CB #3 WR was Chris Henry 21/343
DC #2 WR was P Crayton 50/697
DC #3 WR was S Hurd 19/314
GBP #2 WR was G Jennings 53/920
GBP #3 WR was J Jones 47/697
IC #2/3 WR was M Harrison 20/247
IC #3/2 WR was A Gonzalez 37/576
JJ #1 WR was E Wilfort 45/518
JJ #2 WR was D Northcut 44/601
JJ #3 WR was R Williams 38/629
NYG #2 WR was A Toomer 59/760
NYG #3 WR was S Moss 21/225
PS #2 WR was S Holmes 52/942
PS #3 WR was N Washington 29/450
SDC #1 WR was V Jackson 41/623
SDC #2 WR was C Chambers 35/555
SDC #3 WR was C Davis 20/188
SS #2 WR was N Burleson 50/694
SS #3 WR was D Branch 49/661

And here is another fact for you (I know you really don't like those), but ARE will only count 2.7 angainst the cap next year!

Don't go bringin facts into this argument!

GSPODS wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:The top offensive teams in the NFL get 200 receptions from their #1 and #2 wide receivers. The Redskins didn't get 200 receptions from their entire wide receiving group last season. Chris ey has to be added to get to the 200 receptions mark. That is what I meant by Randle El having to add receptions. We weren't and aren't discussing Moss but he is well short of a #1 wide receiver and also needs to add at least 20 receptions.

The best passing offenses (and why would we want the Redskins to be less than the best) get and average of 100 receptions each from two of their top three wide receivers, and an average of 50 receptions from their third option.


I wouldn't really say this is a viable conclusion. The ONLY teams last year to get two receivers totalling 200 rec is NE and CIN. These teams have premier QBs and incredible receivers.

I never said "two receivers totalling 200 receptions" with regard to the Redskins. I made that statement with regard to "the top offensive teams" in the league.
You don't want the Redskins to be a premier offense? (Rhetorical Question)
No Redskins fan would think to themselves, "Let's hope and settle for mediocrity." The point is, and I believe I stated this in the previous post, the Redskins need a minimum of 200 receptions by their wide receivers to be among the best, not necessarily 200 receptions from only Moss and Randle El, or Moss and Thomas. In the event nobody noticed, the entire Redskins offense only had 319 receptions last season. The entire Redskins offense had 3622 receiving yards last season. The entire Redskins offense had 18 receiving touchdowns last season. The entire Redskins offense had only 192 receptions for first downs last season.

With this group of receivers, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect 200 receptions from the wide-outs.

Moss - 60
Randle El - 60
Thomas - 30
Kelly - 30
Mix? - 30
Thrash? - 30

That would be a total of 240 receptions by the wide receivers.

Then add in the tight ends and the running backs, and this could be a dominant passing offense.

ey - 50
Portis - 25
Betts - 25
Sellers - 20
Cartwright - 10

That would be a total of 130 receptions by anyone other than the wide receivers. Together, that would be a total of 370 receptions, or nearly double last season's total. I don't think this is unreasonable.

The example you gave was:

The top offensive teams in the NFL get 200 receptions from their #1 and #2 wide receivers.

You were using this to disqualify the Redskins pasing game and I commented. I DO want us to be there. I haven't been keeping up with CIN, but I know that NE had an outstanding year in regards to lack of injuries IN ADDITION TO the proficiency(and experience) of the QB. Again, to exclude and part of the equation of an offense is taking it out of context. Yes, we can get better, no I don't think we're perfect; that's something we can agree upon.

I will say that I while I always want my team to the best, I will settle for proficient and balanced. I don't have to have the best running game AND the best pasing game, NOR do I have a high desire to have the #1 rated offense. I want a proficient and balanced offense with no glaring holes to be consistant win.

fleetus wrote:Don't go bringin facts into this argument!

What facts? He listed one year of ARE's contract.

He listed several receivers who were either injured, suspended, or not wide receivers.

He listed several receivers as being #2 or #3 receivers who are not.

The only fact is that the Redskins need more production from a number two wide receiver than Randle El brought last season. They also need more production from a number one receiver than Moss brought last season. There is no discussion about number three receivers here, because neither Randle El nor Moss was the number three receiver last season. Comparing the production of a number two wide receiver to the production of a number three wide receiver is beyond ridiculous. Number two wide receivers are on the field for every offensive play. Number three receivers are not.

Moss is a number two receiver. 60 receptions in unacceptable for a #1.
Randle El is a number three receiver at best. 50 receptions, as pointed out, is an average number three receiver, not a number two receiver.
We better hope like hell that Thomas is a number one receiver or this season will be no different than last season with regard to the passing offense.

RayNAustin wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:Two more years? Boy, I wish I had ever had a boss like you.

I say he has camp, preseason, and 4 or 5 games to show up, and thats it. The Rookies get 2 years, this is JC's 4th season. The time is now to step up or step aside.

so how many wins does he need to get in those 4 or 5 games? 2,3,4 or all 5? Campbell has never played poor enough to be yanked after 4 games. Even his first year as a starter.

I'm not judging him on wins....if he threw 5 TD's in a game and we lost 36-35, would that be the QB's fault? No.

But go 8 games (that's 32 quarters) without a TD pass and yes, there is a major problem. Sorry you can't see that...but neither could Gibbs.

We saw what happened when Collins came in...didn't we? And it was instantly a different offense so don't give me that....it was just a BIG coincidence crap.

Sometimes I wonder how some of you come up with this nonsense....."he never played poor enough...."

If 8 games without a TD pass isn't cause for a change, what is? Nothing, if we're talking about Jason Elway-Unitas-Namath-Favre-Marino-Campbell I suppose.

Hmm... 250 for 417 for a 60% completion percentage and 2700 yds. when Moss, ARE and Portis were all hurt at different times. When Moss was 3rd in the NFL for most Dropped Passes and only played 14 games! On top of the fact that JC is young and still developing? on top of the fact that he can on occasion pull the ball down and run. on top of the fact that he is very hard for defenses to tackle/sack because he is strong as a bull? on top of the fact that his biggest red zone threat was ey was almost always double-teamed in the end zone? Yeah, what were we thinking when we made him our starter, he's horrible!!! Maybe Wuerfel is still available.

GSPODS wrote:

fleetus wrote:Don't go bringin facts into this argument!

What facts? He listed one year of ARE's contract.

He listed several receivers who were either injured, suspended, or not wide receivers.

He listed several receivers as being #2 or #3 receivers who are not.

The only fact is that the Redskins need more production from a number two wide receiver than Randle El brought last season. They also need more production from a number one receiver than Moss brought last season. There is no discussion about number three receivers here, because neither Randle El nor Moss was the number three receiver last season. Comparing the production of a number two wide receiver to the production of a number three wide receiver is beyond ridiculous. Number two wide receivers are on the field for every offensive play. Number three receivers are not.

Moss is a number two receiver. 60 receptions in unacceptable for a #1.
Randle El is a number three receiver at best. 50 receptions, as pointed out, is an average number three receiver, not a number two receiver.
We better hope like hell that Thomas is a number one receiver or this season will be no different than last season with regard to the passing offense.

If you had just stated this part -

The only fact is that the Redskins need more production from a number two wide receiver than Randle El brought last season.

Then there wouldn't be much to discuss, but you went spouting off about ARE not being on par with any #2 or #3 WR's in the league, using maybe the most prolific WR group in history (Moss/ Welker) as your example. So just check your facts first next time because smoke blowing doesn't fool many people on this board.

fleetus wrote:

GSPODS wrote:

fleetus wrote:Don't go bringin facts into this argument!

What facts? He listed one year of ARE's contract.

He listed several receivers who were either injured, suspended, or not wide receivers.

He listed several receivers as being #2 or #3 receivers who are not.

The only fact is that the Redskins need more production from a number two wide receiver than Randle El brought last season. They also need more production from a number one receiver than Moss brought last season. There is no discussion about number three receivers here, because neither Randle El nor Moss was the number three receiver last season. Comparing the production of a number two wide receiver to the production of a number three wide receiver is beyond ridiculous. Number two wide receivers are on the field for every offensive play. Number three receivers are not.

Moss is a number two receiver. 60 receptions in unacceptable for a #1.
Randle El is a number three receiver at best. 50 receptions, as pointed out, is an average number three receiver, not a number two receiver.
We better hope like hell that Thomas is a number one receiver or this season will be no different than last season with regard to the passing offense.

If you had just stated this part -

The only fact is that the Redskins need more production from a number two wide receiver than Randle El brought last season.

Then there wouldn't be much to discuss, but you went spouting off about ARE not being on par with any #2 or #3 WR's in the league, using maybe the most prolific WR group in history (Moss/ Welker) as your example. So just check your facts first next time because smoke blowing doesn't fool many people on this board.

I did check the facts, and post them. Randle El was barely in the top 50 in any meaningful offensive category. Again, Randle El was a #2 receiver last season, not a #3. Big difference.

I'm of the belief that Randle-El will have a season that better justifies his contract. He won't live up to it entirely but I still have (a somewhat irrational) amount of faith in him.

GSPODS wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:You are just dead wrong on this. You wanted me to compare ARE to other good teams' #2 and #3 WR, well here you go. Here are the eleven of the playoff teams from last year and their #2 and #3 WRs (and some #1). ARE was on par (or better than) almost every #2 and was better than EVERY #3 WR.

And here is another fact for you (I know you really don't like those), but ARE will only count 2.7 angainst the cap next year!

Way to cherry pick stats to try to prove a point:

By Receptions, Randle El was tied for 59th in the NFL.

Did you even look at the list? He was tied for 59th in receptions. Above him were approx. 9 TE's and 5 RB's. So amongst WR's he's about 45th. There are 32 teams in the league and all of them start 2 WR's, so 45 puts ARE smack in the middle of average #2 WR territory. Please just take 60 seconds to check your stats rather than searching for the first thing to support your argument.

Fios wrote:I'm of the belief that Randle-El will have a season that better justifies his contract. He won't live up to it entirely but I still have (a somewhat irrational) amount of faith in him.

Same here. I think he is capable if put into the proper situation. He was overpaid, but that wasn't his fault and there is nothing that can be done about it now.

GSPODS wrote:

fleetus wrote:Don't go bringin facts into this argument!

What facts? He listed one year of ARE's contract.

Because that is all that matters! do you know what he is going to count next year against the cap? Of course not. Bacause it will change again like it did this year. So why would I bring up something that may or may not be relevant.

GSPODS wrote:He listed several receivers who were either injured, suspended, or not wide receivers.

He listed several receivers as being #2 or #3 receivers who are not.

This is simply not true. What I did was go through and list the #2 and #3 WR (except for NE) and some #1 WR for ALL of the playoff teams that didn't wear Burgandy and Gold.

When I say #2 or #3 WR I used the the WRs that caught the secaond and third most balls on the team. I didn't list TE or RB, because we were talking about WR. If I included one TE or RB by mistake... my bad.

I'm sorry if the fact don't fit your preconcieved notion of ARE. That is the funny thing about opinions, when faced with facts some times people just disreguard the facts because they are contrary to what they believe to be true. And that is what you have done.

You brought up Lloyd and AA, not me!

GSPODS wrote:50 receptions, as pointed out, is an average number three receiver, not a number two receiver.

That statement is not true and I offered proof from the playoff teams. If you want to crunch the NFL numbers, go for it, but until you do I am the only one that has offered any facts to prove or disprove your opinion.

By the way you backed off you original statement about how many catches a #3 WR should have. If you want to keep throwing numbers out there you may eventually match up with the facts.

If 50 is average that means there are 16 NFL teems that had #3 WR with 50 catches. If so list then. I will bet you can't even come up with 8.

fleetus wrote:

GSPODS wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:You are just dead wrong on this. You wanted me to compare ARE to other good teams' #2 and #3 WR, well here you go. Here are the eleven of the playoff teams from last year and their #2 and #3 WRs (and some #1). ARE was on par (or better than) almost every #2 and was better than EVERY #3 WR.

And here is another fact for you (I know you really don't like those), but ARE will only count 2.7 angainst the cap next year!

Way to cherry pick stats to try to prove a point:

By Receptions, Randle El was tied for 59th in the NFL.

Did you even look at the list? He was tied for 59th in receptions. Above him were approx. 9 TE's and 5 RB's. So amongst WR's he's about 45th. There are 32 teams in the league and all of them start 2 WR's, so 45 puts ARE smack in the middle of average #2 WR territory. Please just take 60 seconds to check your stats rather than searching for the first thing to support your argument.

Here is the only fact that matters: The Redskins drafted not one, but two wide receivers. That means that one of those receivers is taking either Moss' or Randle El's position. Since Zorn has already stated Randle El is being moved to the #3 (slot) position, it is safe to assume that one of the draft picks is taking Randle El's position. I guess he doesn't think Randle El is a legitimate #2 wide receiver. Zorn bears out my argument better than any stats ever will. End of argument.

GSPODS wrote:

fleetus wrote:

GSPODS wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:You are just dead wrong on this. You wanted me to compare ARE to other good teams' #2 and #3 WR, well here you go. Here are the eleven of the playoff teams from last year and their #2 and #3 WRs (and some #1). ARE was on par (or better than) almost every #2 and was better than EVERY #3 WR.

And here is another fact for you (I know you really don't like those), but ARE will only count 2.7 angainst the cap next year!

Way to cherry pick stats to try to prove a point:

By Receptions, Randle El was tied for 59th in the NFL.

Did you even look at the list? He was tied for 59th in receptions. Above him were approx. 9 TE's and 5 RB's. So amongst WR's he's about 45th. There are 32 teams in the league and all of them start 2 WR's, so 45 puts ARE smack in the middle of average #2 WR territory. Please just take 60 seconds to check your stats rather than searching for the first thing to support your argument.

Here is the only fact that matters: The Redskins drafted not one, but two wide receivers. That means that one of those receivers is taking either Moss' or Randle El's position. Since Zorn has already stated Randle El is being moved to the #3 (slot) position, it is safe to assume that one of the draft picks is taking Randle El's position. I guess he doesn't think Randle El is a legitimate #2 wide receiver. Zorn bears out my argument better than any stats ever will. End of argument.

Okay Captain Obvious, thanks for the report. Not many people disagreeing with that generalization. Like I said before, when you attempt to throw out stats you better understand them because too many people post BS. You will be called out for it.

That said, I think everyone agrees ARE will make a better #3 and everyone HOPES one of the rookies will come up to speed fast enough to start at the #2.

fleetus wrote:

GSPODS wrote:

fleetus wrote:

GSPODS wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:You are just dead wrong on this. You wanted me to compare ARE to other good teams' #2 and #3 WR, well here you go. Here are the eleven of the playoff teams from last year and their #2 and #3 WRs (and some #1). ARE was on par (or better than) almost every #2 and was better than EVERY #3 WR.

And here is another fact for you (I know you really don't like those), but ARE will only count 2.7 angainst the cap next year!

Way to cherry pick stats to try to prove a point:

By Receptions, Randle El was tied for 59th in the NFL.

Did you even look at the list? He was tied for 59th in receptions. Above him were approx. 9 TE's and 5 RB's. So amongst WR's he's about 45th. There are 32 teams in the league and all of them start 2 WR's, so 45 puts ARE smack in the middle of average #2 WR territory. Please just take 60 seconds to check your stats rather than searching for the first thing to support your argument.

Here is the only fact that matters: The Redskins drafted not one, but two wide receivers. That means that one of those receivers is taking either Moss' or Randle El's position. Since Zorn has already stated Randle El is being moved to the #3 (slot) position, it is safe to assume that one of the draft picks is taking Randle El's position. I guess he doesn't think Randle El is a legitimate #2 wide receiver. Zorn bears out my argument better than any stats ever will. End of argument.

Okay Captain Obvious, thanks for the report. Not many people disagreeing with that generalization. Like I said before, when you attempt to throw out stats you better understand them because too many people post BS. You will be called out for it.

That said, I think everyone agrees ARE will make a better #3 and everyone HOPES one of the rookies will come up to speed fast enough to start at the #2.

Hey. My name is "General E. Oblivious"
Who is Captain Obvious?

Please stay on-topic

GSPODS wrote:

fleetus wrote:

GSPODS wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:You are just dead wrong on this. You wanted me to compare ARE to other good teams' #2 and #3 WR, well here you go. Here are the eleven of the playoff teams from last year and their #2 and #3 WRs (and some #1). ARE was on par (or better than) almost every #2 and was better than EVERY #3 WR.

And here is another fact for you (I know you really don't like those), but ARE will only count 2.7 angainst the cap next year!

Way to cherry pick stats to try to prove a point:

By Receptions, Randle El was tied for 59th in the NFL.

Did you even look at the list? He was tied for 59th in receptions. Above him were approx. 9 TE's and 5 RB's. So amongst WR's he's about 45th. There are 32 teams in the league and all of them start 2 WR's, so 45 puts ARE smack in the middle of average #2 WR territory. Please just take 60 seconds to check your stats rather than searching for the first thing to support your argument.

Here is the only fact that matters: The Redskins drafted not one, but two wide receivers. That means that one of those receivers is taking either Moss' or Randle El's position. Since Zorn has already stated Randle El is being moved to the #3 (slot) position, it is safe to assume that one of the draft picks is taking Randle El's position. I guess he doesn't think Randle El is a legitimate #2 wide receiver. Zorn bears out my argument better than any stats ever will. End of argument.

So ARE will go back to the spot the Skins signed him to play, #3 or slot WR. They never intended him to be a #2 WR, the was Lloyd.

I don't think anyone will argue that El wouldn't be better in the slot. The problem I had was with people painting ARE as som type of bumb that majorly underacheived. With respect to his play as a WR that is simply not true. With respect to his play at PR, it is 100% accurate to say he underachieved, but I put half of that on Danny Smith. He should have grabbed El by the face mask and screamed "North/South!!! Quit the (insert explative) dancing". El can be a good returner. He just needs to take a 8 yard PR if it is there and stop trying to hit a home run. Take what is there and the big returns wil take care of themselves.

skinsfan#33 wrote:I don't think anyone will argue that El wouldn't be better in the slot. The problem I had was with people painting ARE as som type of bumb that majorly underacheived. With respect to his play as a WR that is simply not true. With respect to his play at PR, it is 100% accurate to say he underachieved, but I put half of that on Danny Smith. He should have grabbed El by the face mask and screamed "North/South!!! Quit the (insert explative) dancing". El can be a good returner. He just needs to take a 8 yard PR if it is there and stop trying to hit a home run. Take what is there and the big returns wil take care of themselves.

Randle El is no "bum" in my book. He plays his rear off even when he's injured. I didn't intend to imply that I thought Randle El was a "bum." I just don't think he's a legitimate #2. I have no doubt that Randle El will be a good #3. I don't see many nickel cornerbacks covering him one-on-one, especially if Thomas and Kelly both work out.

GSPODS wrote:Most good teams third receivers had more catches than Randle El last season. Welker had 112. So did Houshmandzadeh as a #2. The Redskins entire wide receiving group had fewer catches last season than Moss and Welker, or Houshmandzadeh and Johnson.

Not that I am taking sides in this, but one thing that needs to be noted is that Cincy does not throw to a tight end. I think their starting TE had like 20 or so catches. NE doesn't throw to Watson near as much as we do ey. It makes a little difference in the numbers. I like ARE but I am not going to try to justify his contract.

So ARE will go back to the spot the Skins signed him to play, #3 or slot WR. They never intended him to be a #2 WR, the was Lloyd.

I'd still like to know who you can conclusively say that he was signed to be a #3? In his last season in Pittsburgh he was their #2 receiver and after that we signed him to a large contract. It appeared to be an open competition between Lloyd and ARE from the beginning.