The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

DarthMonk wrote:

ComebackSkins wrote:Is it possible that Zorn is coming as the offensive coordinator and al saunders is staying as the assistant head coach: offense?

and if so does it mean Don Breaux is getting canned.

It is possible. This actually would make sense since

*Al Saunders is our Asst. Head Coach Off. and Don Breaux is our OC.

*It would be a step up for Zorn and he is apparently a good QB coach.

*It would serve continuity.

This is my current best case scenario. I hope you're right ComebackSkins. The only problem with this idea is that it's too smart. Could Danny actually do something this right?

Man, I agree that would be nice if true... but is that wishful thinking at this point?

Sources are going to get word about Zorn's deal due to his employment with another team. But as far as sources hearing anything from our guys, like Saunders and Williams is less likely. So maybe..

... ok, wishful thinking.

RayNAustin wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:I guess. I'm more concerned about the offense though. Even if GW isn't retained I think our defense will be fine. We have enough veterans there to be able to transition. Asking JC to learn his 6th offense in 7 years is bad news. To me, keeping continuity was much more important on the offensive side than on defense.

Once again....I don't understand your logic. The offense wasn't working, for whatever reason. Remember now, Garett came in this year and the Cowboys were smokin on offense right out of the blocks. Campbell had two years with the playbook and a year and a half on the field and was obviously struggling with it considering how successfully Collins executed it. Maybe Saunders playbook is too complex or isn't suited to Campbell? You being the president of the JC fan club should be jumping up and down happy, because if Saunders stays, Collins plays if Campbell didn't take a major leap forward. This move shows that Snyder is committed to JC's development, and a guy like Zorn may be able to help him tremendously.

Besides, Zorn is obviously well regarded since the Seahawks promised him their OC job next year if he stayed. So I'd rather suspect he will do a fine job......read my lips.....THE OFFENSE WAS BROKEN. THEY WERE NOT SCORING TD's. With reasonable offensive production this year, we would have easily finsihed 12-4 of maybe 13-3. If anything needed changing it is the offense.

Now, the rest of the story will be..........?

Good points, Ray... I agree. This does in fact ensure development for Campbell, as he is our future.

CanesSkins26 wrote:If that's true then why haven't they announced that GW is the head coach. It has also been reported (yes i know its just a media report but what else do we have to go on at this point) that GW hasn't talked to Snyder in about a week. So if true, that would indicate that this hire is independent of GW.

Another thought here... GW may not be the guy, but they haven't gone with Fassel either, after 3 interviews. So I'm still thinking Williams may have a chance.

CanesSkins26 wrote: ... I had my reservations about GW as head coach, but I was still pretty sure that he was going to get the gig.

Oh please! - stop me - there has been a lot of misconceptions about the HC position, but this just cracks me up!!!

Reservations are what you make at a restaurant - your posts have made it very clear where you stand on having Williams as our HC and being reserved does not come to mind

now that is funny -

RayNAustin wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:I guess. I'm more concerned about the offense though. Even if GW isn't retained I think our defense will be fine. We have enough veterans there to be able to transition. Asking JC to learn his 6th offense in 7 years is bad news. To me, keeping continuity was much more important on the offensive side than on defense.

Once again....I don't understand your logic. The offense wasn't working, for whatever reason. Remember now, Garett came in this year and the Cowboys were smokin on offense right out of the blocks. Campbell had two years with the playbook and a year and a half on the field and was obviously struggling with it considering how successfully Collins executed it. Maybe Saunders playbook is too complex or isn't suited to Campbell? You being the president of the JC fan club should be jumping up and down happy, because if Saunders stays, Collins plays if Campbell didn't take a major leap forward. This move shows that Snyder is committed to JC's development, and a guy like Zorn may be able to help him tremendously.

Besides, Zorn is obviously well regarded since the Seahawks promised him their OC job next year if he stayed. So I'd rather suspect he will do a fine job......read my lips.....THE OFFENSE WAS BROKEN. THEY WERE NOT SCORING TD's. With reasonable offensive production this year, we would have easily finsihed 12-4 of maybe 13-3. If anything needed changing it is the offense.

Now, the rest of the story will be..........?

Without knowing what kind of system Zorn is going to run it's hard to say. But, he has been coaching in a west coast offense so without more information, it is a reasonable assumption that that is the type of offense that he will run. And JC is not a good fit at all for a west coast offense, and we also don't have the types of receivers (can break tackles, turn short catch into a long gain) for that type of offense. But we really need a lot more information about Zorn before we can draw any conclusions.

SkinsJock wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote: ... I had my reservations about GW as head coach, but I was still pretty sure that he was going to get the gig.

Oh please! - stop me - there has been a lot of misconceptions about the HC position, but this just cracks me up!!!

Reservations are what you make at a restaurant - your posts have made it very clear where you stand on having Williams as our HC and being reserved does not come to mind

now that is funny -

Perhaps "dead set against it" would have been more accurate However, once names like Fassel started getting thrown around GW started looking a lot better to me.

Relating this whole issue to GW, has it crossed anyones mind that perhaps GW doesn't want the position. Perhaps he thought he wanted it. Then when Joe left and he realized that there was no buffer between him and Danny he thought better of his decision? Or perhaps someone else is making a play for him (aka Jacksonville) but they won't say it out loud because GW is stil under contract.

I'm not saying that this is true. But its an interesting angle in light of the uproar about not hiring him, the four interviews, the delay in hiring, etc.

Daniel Snyder ,

You are a freakin idiot!

How in the world is Jason Campbell going to get any progress when he has to learn a new system again?

D Snyder I want to punch you in your face and kick you off a bridge!

Without knowing what kind of system Zorn is going to run it's hard to say. But, he has been coaching in a west coast offense so without more information, it is a reasonable assumption that that is the type of offense that he will run. And JC is not a good fit at all for a west coast offense, and we also don't have the types of receivers (can break tackles, turn short catch into a long gain) for that type of offense. But we really need a lot more information about Zorn before we can draw any conclusions.[/quote]

I don't really care what type of offense the Redskins run as long as it is better than the last 2 years. Our offense has been bad, inconsistant, etc., I don't think it was all Saunders fault. I think Campbell is just not able to run Saunders offense either because he lacks experience or ability. Saunders offense looked totally different with Collins running it the last 4 games (exclude the play-off, it looked bad also). We will never know how much, if at all, Saunders offense was handcuffed by Campbell and Gibbs but his offense has been among the best everywhere else after the 1st year. If you accept that not everything works everywhere then maybe Saunders offense was just not for the Redskins...No fault on anyone.

RayNAustin wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:I guess. I'm more concerned about the offense though. Even if GW isn't retained I think our defense will be fine. We have enough veterans there to be able to transition. Asking JC to learn his 6th offense in 7 years is bad news. To me, keeping continuity was much more important on the offensive side than on defense.

Once again....I don't understand your logic. The offense wasn't working, for whatever reason. Remember now, Garett came in this year and the Cowboys were smokin on offense right out of the blocks. Campbell had two years with the playbook and a year and a half on the field and was obviously struggling with it considering how successfully Collins executed it. Maybe Saunders playbook is too complex or isn't suited to Campbell? You being the president of the JC fan club should be jumping up and down happy, because if Saunders stays, Collins plays if Campbell didn't take a major leap forward. This move shows that Snyder is committed to JC's development, and a guy like Zorn may be able to help him tremendously.

Besides, Zorn is obviously well regarded since the Seahawks promised him their OC job next year if he stayed. So I'd rather suspect he will do a fine job......read my lips.....THE OFFENSE WAS BROKEN. THEY WERE NOT SCORING TD's. With reasonable offensive production this year, we would have easily finsihed 12-4 of maybe 13-3. If anything needed changing it is the offense.

Now, the rest of the story will be..........?

I agree with a lot of this but I am not with you completely. The offense was generally fine in FIRST HALVES and mostly suffered from 2nd half handcuffs if you ask me. When we FINALLY LEARNED OUR LESSON the offense became more productive in the 2nd halves as well. That happened to coincide with Collins taking over.

Campbell could have continued to have good games (with the lead) in the second halves if we (Gibbs?) hadn't consistently played it WAY TOO CLOSE to the vest in the 2nd halves. I think we actually had a 2nd half lead in 15 of our 17 games. Not necessarily the lead at the half but a lead in the 2nd half at some point.

I think Campbell had played 17 games or essentially 1 season. Saunders historically has started middle of the pack and then been steady top 5 after year 2.

I don't think the offense was broken. The attitude was broken and we (Gibbs) discovered the need for 60 minutes of aggression in the nick of time. Too bad we didn't go silent count from the get-go in Seattle and take them down. We actually had assumed control in the 2nd half. It didn't look broken. ey dropped the key pass at the 2 right before the missed FG. He catches that and we're looking at 21 second-half points in around 20 minutes on the road in one of the toughest stadiums (stadia?) in existence.

DarthMonk

I'm sorry aswas - maybe it's Friday BUT that just did not make any sense to me at all I guess I need to have a little more to drink and try and digest this later

SkinsJock wrote:I'm sorry aswas - maybe it's Friday BUT that just did not make any sense to me at all I guess I need to have a little more to drink and try and digest this later

I have a Lagavullin 16 year old single malt open if that helps. But somehow I suspect that this will make less sense tomorrow than it does today.

Continuity!

Continuity.

Continuity?

CONTINUITY ???

What CONTINUITY ???!!!

DarthMonk wrote:.. I agree with a lot of this but I am not with you completely. The offense was generally fine in FIRST HALVES and mostly suffered from 2nd half handcuffs if you ask me. When we FINALLY LEARNED OUR LESSON the offense became more productive in the 2nd halves as well. That happened to coincide with Collins taking over.

Campbell could have continued to have good games (with the lead) in the second halves if we (Gibbs?) hadn't consistently played it WAY TOO CLOSE to the vest in the 2nd halves. I think we actually had a 2nd half lead in 15 of our 17 games. Not necessarily the lead at the half but a lead in the 2nd half at some point.
I think Campbell had played 17 games or essentially 1 season. Saunders historically has started middle of the pack and then been steady top 5 after year 2.
I don't think the offense was broken. The attitude was broken and we (Gibbs) discovered the need for 60 minutes of aggression in the nick of time. Too bad we didn't go silent count from the get-go in Seattle and take them down. We actually had assumed control in the 2nd half. It didn't look broken. ey dropped the key pass at the 2 right before the missed FG. He catches that and we're looking at 21 second-half points in around 20 minutes on the road in one of the toughest stadiums (stadia?) in existence.

I'm sorry - just not happening - Offenses in the NFL just do not "break down" like this

we need to execute better

Im sure this piece of information isnt worth much but Kelly Johnson from CSN reports that apparently Jim Zorn was high on the list of OC that Greg Williams wanted if he got the job...probably doesn't mean anything at all but just throwing any information I hear

DarthMonk wrote:I agree with a lot of this but I am not with you completely. The offense was generally fine in FIRST HALVES and mostly suffered from 2nd half handcuffs if you ask me. When we FINALLY LEARNED OUR LESSON the offense became more productive in the 2nd halves as well. That happened to coincide with Collins taking over.

Campbell could have continued to have good games (with the lead) in the second halves if we (Gibbs?) hadn't consistently played it WAY TOO CLOSE to the vest in the 2nd halves. I think we actually had a 2nd half lead in 15 of our 17 games. Not necessarily the lead at the half but a lead in the 2nd half at some point.

I think Campbell had played 17 games or essentially 1 season. Saunders historically has started middle of the pack and then been steady top 5 after year 2.

I don't think the offense was broken. The attitude was broken and we (Gibbs) discovered the need for 60 minutes of aggression in the nick of time. Too bad we didn't go silent count from the get-go in Seattle and take them down. We actually had assumed control in the 2nd half. It didn't look broken. ey dropped the key pass at the 2 right before the missed FG. He catches that and we're looking at 21 second-half points in around 20 minutes on the road in one of the toughest stadiums (stadia?) in existence.

DarthMonk

My take on it was that opposing defenses figured out our offense in the first half, and made their adjustments at half time.

The inability to hit WR downfiled made the Redskin offense 2 dimensional (throw short and run). (Remember, half way through the season we still hadn't thrown a TD pass to a WR) That most definitely will have an effect on play calling as well as how defenses play you. If you have no deep threat, defenses can play press coverage and stack the box making everything else that much more difficult to execute. This is the reason why we had difficulty running also.

When Collins took over, it was his ability to hit those downfield receivers which opened up the running game and allowed more agressiveness in play calling, not vice versa. OK The o-line seemed to perform better because they were asked to block 6 or 7 instead of 8. The receivers played better because the ball was delivered where it was supposed to be.

That's been my big issue with Campbell and the excuses about learning the system. Systems are about plays and formations and terminologies. When you have open receivers down field and you overthrown them repeatedly, IT IS NOT THE SYSTEM. It's not the arrow, it's the indian.

So this idea that Collins success was because the play calling got better and the o-line blocked better and the RB's ran better and the WR stopped dropping passes all coincidentally at the same time collins took over is ludicris. All of those things got better because the execution by the QB was better, and defennses had to play defense differently, respecting the downfield threat which by didn't allow them to jam the box. There's a relationship there and it wasn't magic or coincidence.

Look, it's simple. How goes your QB is generally how goes your offense, and whether you win or lose. Collins demonstrated this perfectly, yet many are still in denial.

Wanna know the unvarnished truth here? Snyder and Cerrato and Gibbs paid too much for Campbell and they are loath to admit it even to themselves, therefore Saunders must go, and take that 36 year old nightmare QB that played circles around their franchise QB with him.

Hence Zorn to coach up Campbell and prove to everyone how smart they are.

Am I the only one who reads the RedskinsInCanada's "Continuity?" post in a Jim Mora voice like he was saying "Playoffs?"

....Anyway, I guess the two most disturbing parts about this whole coach search debacle are #1 the return to the old Redskins "Decisions by the seat of our pants" mode prior to Gibbs' arrival and #2 the alienation that our current coaching staff feels due to the inability to get a coach in a timely fashion.

For the first point, I had hoped "The Daniel" would have learned from his early ownership SNAFUs whereas he changed members of his coaching staff and key members of his team as regularly as he changed the oil in his helicopter (which he flew to watch his underperforming team on a weekly basis). This mode of constant change didn't work then and it won't work now. If we go back to this management style, give me a little time at least to get my Jeff George jersey dry cleaned, because you can bet your Cerrato that he is coming back.

As for the second point, this coaching search is making the Redskins look like the "slow" kid in a game of musical chairs. The last song is going to play and we still haven't made a decision. Before you know it, we're begging Terry Robiskie to come back for another go. Seriously, we had a great coaching staff including the likes of Greg Blache, Kurt Olividatti, and Jerry Gray that won't last a day on the streets if we cut'em loose. Yet we have no better option. Even if we asked them to come back, why would they? We have basically told them we are looking for better options right now, 'cause they just weren't good enough to take us to the next level. To go to the next level, we needed the QB coach for the Seattle Seahawks....puzzling.

And to think I was happy that Gibbs retired. Snyder is the worst possible thing to happen to Redskins fans.

Here's something that might bring a little cheer. Zorn was once an assitant coach at Boise State. Statue of Liberty anyone?

This may have been mentioned, but the Cowpukes did that last year, and they were the number one playoff seed.

Let me consolidate some of the reasons why Snyder may be having second thoughts about maintaining continuity:

On Defense, the Redskins do not retain Ryan Clark, Antonio Pierce, Fred Smoot, Walt Harris, Lavar Arrington, and others, while Williams lobbies to get Adam Archuleta (the bigest free agent bust imaginable). The defense declines slightly from 2004 to 2005, and drops like a stone in 2006 due largely to the failure to retain important players listed, and poor play of replacements. Several questionable personnel decisions between 2004-2006.

The offense is even worse with similar ill conceived personnel decisions and ultilization and evaluation of available talent. Continuing problems with clock management and time out use, and the failure of the offense to score remains an ongoing problem.

Gibbs and staff nearly lost the locker room in 2006 due to the poor roster management and allowing valuable players to leave while paying more for free agent replacements that played poorly. The talk of real Redskins as spoken of by Gibbs is viewed as BS media talk by many players who are bitter about teammates that were not retained. by the coaching staff.

2007 was headed toward another disappointing season at 5-7 when ST was murdered, and Campbell was lost to injury. The team rebounded with Collins and inspiration by the ST tragedy led to a 4-0 finish making the playoffs.

But the season was marred by questionable coaching decisions and outright errors from the continuing clock and time out management issues to inexplicable play calling.

By lobbying for Archuleta in 2005, as well as other personnel moves such as allowing his MLB to leave and play for a division rival, Williams took a major credibility hit. Many football experts immediately viewed Archuleta as a poor fit in Williams scheme which requires good coverage skills by safeties...something archuleta was known to be weak in.

The mishandling of Patrick Ramsey back in 2004-2005 is another issue of talk around the league, which suggested that ramsey's career may have been ruined by the Redskins unnecessarily.

Overall, if the HC from 2004-2007 had any other name besides Joe Gibbs, he would have been run out, bood out, and driven out of town at the end of 2006.

In considering Williams as a potential replacement for Gibbs, one has to look at those questionable personnel decisions made between 2004-2006, especially the Pierce and Archuleta moves.

Is it any wonder why Snyder may have reservations about maintaining and promoting the current staff?

If Joe Gibbs were anyone other than Joe Gibbs, the firing of the entire staff in 2006 would not have been viewed in NFL circles as an over reaction by ownership.

You think Gregg was wanting to pick the brain of someone on the staff of Seattle because they've killed us everytime we get it going. What is this offense gonna look like will it be pure west coast? Will we be able to run right? I wanna hear from someone who knows more about Zorn's pedigree...What is "The Zorn Identity"

I am still trying to understand

How can you hire an OC before you hire a HC?
Why would you hire an OC before you hire a HC?

How big of a moron would ESPN's Chris Mortensen look like if we named Gregg HC today.

Gibbs4Life wrote:You think Gregg was wanting to pick the brain of someone on the staff of Seattle because they've killed us everytime we get it going. What is this offense gonna look like will it be pure west coast? Will we be able to run right? I wanna hear from someone who knows more about Zorn's pedigree...What is "The Zorn Identity"

First, I have some relatives in the Seattle and Tacoma area who are big Seahawks fans. Two of my cousins called me late last night to offer congratulations. They said Zorn is a hell of a coach and the fan base is sad to see him leave, but hope he returns one day. They wanted him to be the OC after Holgem leaves and perhaps the head coach.

ESPN has several of the sports writers from the Seatle Post on late last night and they had some interesting comments regarding Zorn. They said the west coast system was Holgrems, but recent success to their offense over the past few years was attributed to the the contributions Zorn was offering in meetings. Zorn effectively contributed some schemes and plays, not from a west coast system, to compliment Holgems stuff. They said the Hawks play several defenses where the west coast system is not that effective. Zorns contributions were highly regarded in the organization.

Zorn did not play in a west coast system, nor did he ever coach it. Zorn was an offensive assistant under Dennis Erickson for a few years and Erickson was not a west coast guy either. In Seattle, the plays were designed by Holgrem. Zorn worked with the QB's and did not call plays, but apparently, was instrumental and worked directly with Holgem on scheme and play design.

A few thoughts I had. Zorn was starting QB in this league for 11 years and was a pretty good one at that, he is honored on the Hawks ring of fame at the stadium. As a QB, Zorn called plays at the line of scrimmage and was extremely effective at reading defenses.

That said, having an offensive coordinator who has played the QB position in the league for 11 years is a bonus. Saunders played some ball in college, but never as a pro. Also, even though Holgrem is a west coast guy, his assistants have faired pretty well in this league and he isn't too shabby of a guy to have learned from and to have worked for.

In my opinion, our offense, and especially our passing game, would actually benefit from some of the techniques employed in the west coast system. A report this morning said Zorn would probably not be in favor of running a full blown west coast system, but rather a hybrid of both systems.

Remember, Shaun Alexander set an NFL rushing record a few years ago and our passing offense could use some help. Actually, the west coast offense is a product of Don "Air" Coryell.

West Coast Offense:
Theory
The popular term "West Coast Offense" is more of a philosophy and an approach to the game than it is a set of plays or formations. Traditional offensive thinking argues that a team must establish their running game first, which will draw the defense in and open up vertical passing lanes downfield (i.e., passing lanes that run perpendicular to the line of scrimmage).

Bill Walsh's West Coast Offense, however, differs from traditional offense by instead emphasizing a short, horizontal passing attack to help stretch the defense out, thus opening up running lanes. The West Coast Offense as implemented under Walsh features precisely-run pass patterns by the receivers that make up about 65% to 80% of the offensive scheme. With the defense stretched out, the offense is then free to focus the remaining plays on longer throws (more than 14 yards) and mid to long yard rushes

If you look at the successful teams over the past half decade, like the Colts and the Pat's, it's obvious that a strong passing attack is crucial. Skins fans, especially here, were becoming very irritated by the bunch formations and the "run, run, pass, punt" style of offense. How many times here did we see folks complaining about Gibbs and his predictable play calling, would see the formation at the line of scrimmage and new exactly what the call would be. Well, Zorn will stretch out a defense and capitalize on Campbell's arm. Not a bad plan in my opinion. Again, not a full blown west coast system, but a hybrid would be a nice change of pace. Our offense was actually more successful this year when we inserted the mid-range passing game.

Obviously, somebody else may be the new HC that wanted Zorn as OC. Who has ties to Zorn around the league that is interviewing with us????

It is odd to hire an OC before an HC but that move may have been done to let everybody know that GW is not the guy. Why wait until after the SB to name the HC if you already got your OC??? I seriously doubt that Zorn is going to completely change his coaching, schemes, and teaching methods on the fly when the new HC is named. It's someone I am sure that is either familiar with Zorn or has told Snyder to get him to be his OC.

Instead of being MEN about this situation and just telling everybody that GW is not going to be the HC and naming whoever will be, they create angst and anomosity with the players and fans by doing what they are doing. They are leaving themselves wide-open for every lost to be highly publicized and critcized next season because of the way they handled this thing.

I'm just a fan and a NFL Football Guy but I just do see OC's and DC's completely changing their junk to fit the HC..... I'm sorry...