My weekly thread of self-indulgence/Should Gibbs step aside?

[Bob 0119]

Gibbs must go, huh? So who replaces him?

Williams? Sure he's been great as Defensive Coordinator, but he wasn't so hot as HC with the Bills.

Saunders? I'm not so sure he'd make a great HC either.

Cowher? You really think he's going to come out of retirement as soon as he's available? Live the dream all you like, but I think the chances of him coming back are slim...like win the lottery slim.

Schottenheimer? Didn't we try him once already? I mean, I was upset to see him go 'cause I think he could've turned us around and 8-8 wasn't bad for his first year, but apparently he pisses people off. My distress at seeing him go was washed away by the news of Gibbs returning. Something tells me he's not coming back. Not here anyway.

Andy Reid? He may just get fired from Philly for this bad year they're having. Never mind they've gone to the playoffs every year for what, the past 7-8 years? Went to the SB for the first time in something like 30 years. Maybe the game's passed him by too. First bad year and you're smoked in Philly I guess, but I doubt he's going anywhere.

I dunno, who should it be?

[Deadskins]

Gibbs must go, huh? So who replaces him?

Williams? Sure he's been great as Defensive Coordinator, but he wasn't so hot as HC with the Bills.

Saunders? I'm not so sure he'd make a great HC either.

Cowher? You really think he's going to come out of retirement as soon as he's available? Live the dream all you like, but I think the chances of him coming back are slim...like win the lottery slim.

Schottenheimer? Didn't we try him once already? I mean, I was upset to see him go 'cause I think he could've turned us around and 8-8 wasn't bad for his first year, but apparently he pisses people off. My distress at seeing him go was washed away by the news of Gibbs returning. Something tells me he's not coming back. Not here anyway.

Andy Reid? He may just get fired from Philly for this bad year they're having. Never mind they've gone to the playoffs every year for what, the past 7-8 years? Went to the SB for the first time in something like 30 years. Maybe the game's passed him by too. First bad year and you're smoked in Philly I guess, but I doubt he's going anywhere.

I dunno, who should it be?

He obviously wants to bring Spurrier back.

[Mursilis]

Gibbs took a Spurrier team with college level coaching to the playoffs in his second year. He had a down year and is now 4-3. Since 12/32 teams make the playoffs each year, which is just over 1 out of 3, Gibbs has met the NFL average while turning over most of the roster, finding a QB of the future and putting us in contention to go back to the playoffs this year. Which if we do would be more playoff appearances then in the 11 years he was gone. And if we lose in the first round he will sill have won as many playoff games as we did in the 11 years.

Yeah, posting some good points there, no accountability, it's all his fault. String him up, what an incompetent.

You make a good case, but you set a low bar. Of the coaches we've had since Gibbs I, only one even reached .500 over their career as 'skin head coach. Doing better than that sorry crowd is hardly an achievement (and Gibbs still hasn't matched Schotty's 'career' average of .500 - yes, I know it was only one season). And regarding making the playoffs, you said yourself Gibbs 'met the average' - so? That's great and all, but I think we were all hoping for something more than average when he came back. Gibbs certainly wasn't average the first time he was in town. You don't make the HOF for being average. Maybe we're all the victims of too-high expectations, but Gibbs II has certainly been underwhelming. Average is about all it's been.

[Mursilis]

Cowher? You really think he's going to come out of retirement as soon as he's available? Live the dream all you like, but I think the chances of him coming back are slim...like win the lottery slim.

You forget, much of the reason Cowher retired was the money. The Steelers aren't known as one of the NFL's more free-spending franchises, and he was in contract negotiations for an extension the season he retired. Those contract negotiations broke down, if you remember, and an extension was never signed. Cowher is still young, and he never ruled out coming back - he pretty much said he was coming back, but there was "no timetable" for when, according to interviews. If Snyder can do one thing right, that's throw money at a player or coach. Snyder could easily make an offer Cowher can't refuse.

[CanesSkins26]

I've only heard praise from the players of our coaching staff as it currently exists. The players themselves say to a man that they are not executing well. It's hard to play gimmick football when no two consecutive offensive linemen have played next to their neighboring line-mates for more than seven games. An offensive line takes at minimum a year to gel. The fact that we are still 4-3 speaks volumes about how well coached this team is. That we have bounced back from each disappointing loss with a victory also is a good indication of Joe's ability to keep the players focused. The teams we have lost to have a combined record of 20-3; not exactly the chaff of the NFL.

Of course the players are going to like the staff. We hand out huge contracts to players that don't perform, let players play that aren't even worthy of being backups (Thrash), and Gibbs coddles the players by always talking about how hard they fought and all that nonsense.

Man, you have a selective memory. I guess Deion Sanders, Bruce Smith, Jeff George, Danny Wuerffel, etc., etc., etc. don't ring any bells for you. You don't remember the players openly saying they had no confidence in Spurrier's system? Talk about no accountability? Spurrier's players said his training camps were a joke. His chuck and duck offense was the laughing stock of the NFL.

Who cares about Spurrier? I never said I wanted Spurrier back. He sucked as a coach. The problem is that Gibbs hasn't been all that much better.

[Deadskins]

Gibbs took a Spurrier team with college level coaching to the playoffs in his second year. He had a down year and is now 4-3. Since 12/32 teams make the playoffs each year, which is just over 1 out of 3, Gibbs has met the NFL average while turning over most of the roster, finding a QB of the future and putting us in contention to go back to the playoffs this year. Which if we do would be more playoff appearances then in the 11 years he was gone. And if we lose in the first round he will sill have won as many playoff games as we did in the 11 years.

Yeah, posting some good points there, no accountability, it's all his fault. String him up, what an incompetent.

You make a good case, but you set a low bar. Of the coaches we've had since Gibbs I, only one even reached .500 over their career as 'skin head coach. Doing better than that sorry crowd is hardly an achievement (and Gibbs still hasn't matched Schotty's 'career' average of .500 - yes, I know it was only one season). And regarding making the playoffs, you said yourself Gibbs 'met the average' - so? That's great and all, but I think we were all hoping for something more than average when he came back. Gibbs certainly wasn't average the first time he was in town. You don't make the HOF for being average. Maybe we're all the victims of too-high expectations, but Gibbs II has certainly been underwhelming. Average is about all it's been.

Gibbs II has made the playoffs one out of three seasons so far, with a good chance to make it two out of four this season. No one can count the first year back against him, he was fighting against 12 years of mediocrity. It takes a little while to undo all of the damage his predecessors, especially the immediate one, did to our roster. How many players currently on the roster, were here under Spurrier? Samuels, Jansen, and ... well I can't think of anyone else. You can't just overhaul a team's roster in a year in the salary cap age. He took us to the playoffs in his second season back, and has had one poor season since. I think even Vince Lombardi would have had trouble winning games with the hand Gibbs II has been dealt. You have to give him enough time to finish what he has started, yet so many (undoubtedly young) fans seem to want to cast him aside for some mythic "coach-god" who just doesn't exist. Anybody who came in now would be benefiting from all the hard work Joe has put in turning this organization around. Once he has righted the ship, then we may be able to add pieces, a la the Patriots, and ride the dynasty wave, but if you go changing horses in mid-stream every few years that will never happen. Show a little patience people, we are going in the right direction.

[Deadskins]

I've only heard praise from the players of our coaching staff as it currently exists. The players themselves say to a man that they are not executing well. It's hard to play gimmick football when no two consecutive offensive linemen have played next to their neighboring line-mates for more than seven games. An offensive line takes at minimum a year to gel. The fact that we are still 4-3 speaks volumes about how well coached this team is. That we have bounced back from each disappointing loss with a victory also is a good indication of Joe's ability to keep the players focused. The teams we have lost to have a combined record of 20-3; not exactly the chaff of the NFL.

Of course the players are going to like the staff. We hand out huge contracts to players that don't perform, let players play that aren't even worthy of being backups (Thrash), and Gibbs coddles the players by always talking about how hard they fought and all that nonsense.

Man, you have a selective memory. I guess Deion Sanders, Bruce Smith, Jeff George, Danny Wuerffel, etc., etc., etc. don't ring any bells for you. You don't remember the players openly saying they had no confidence in Spurrier's system? Talk about no accountability? Spurrier's players said his training camps were a joke. His chuck and duck offense was the laughing stock of the NFL.

Who cares about Spurrier? I never said I wanted Spurrier back. He sucked as a coach. The problem is that Gibbs hasn't been all that much better.

I used Spurrier as an example to refute your "point" about players liking the staff because of big contracts for players who don't perform (Sanders, Smith) and letting players who aren't worthy of being backups play (Wuerfful). Not that I agree with your assessment that Gibbs has done those things.

[CanesSkins26]

Gibbs took a Spurrier team with college level coaching to the playoffs in his second year. He had a down year and is now 4-3. Since 12/32 teams make the playoffs each year, which is just over 1 out of 3, Gibbs has met the NFL average while turning over most of the roster, finding a QB of the future and putting us in contention to go back to the playoffs this year. Which if we do would be more playoff appearances then in the 11 years he was gone. And if we lose in the first round he will sill have won as many playoff games as we did in the 11 years.

Yeah, posting some good points there, no accountability, it's all his fault. String him up, what an incompetent.

You make a good case, but you set a low bar. Of the coaches we've had since Gibbs I, only one even reached .500 over their career as 'skin head coach. Doing better than that sorry crowd is hardly an achievement (and Gibbs still hasn't matched Schotty's 'career' average of .500 - yes, I know it was only one season). And regarding making the playoffs, you said yourself Gibbs 'met the average' - so? That's great and all, but I think we were all hoping for something more than average when he came back. Gibbs certainly wasn't average the first time he was in town. You don't make the HOF for being average. Maybe we're all the victims of too-high expectations, but Gibbs II has certainly been underwhelming. Average is about all it's been.

Gibbs II has made the playoffs one out of three seasons so far, with a good chance to make it two out of four this season. No one can count the first year back against him, he was fighting against 12 years of mediocrity. It takes a little while to undo all of the damage his predecessors, especially the immediate one, did to our roster. How many players currently on the roster, were here under Spurrier? Samuels, Jansen, and ... well I can't think of anyone else. You can't just overhaul a team's roster in a year in the salary cap age. He took us to the playoffs in his second season back, and has had one poor season since. I think even Vince Lombardi would have had trouble winning games with the hand Gibbs II has been dealt. You have to give him enough time to finish what he has started, yet so many (undoubtedly young) fans seem to want to cast him aside for some mythic "coach-god" who just doesn't exist. Anybody who came in now would be benefiting from all the hard work Joe has put in turning this organization around. Once he has righted the ship, then we may be able to add pieces, a la the Patriots, and ride the dynasty wave, but if you go changing horses in mid-stream every few years that will never happen. Show a little patience people, we are going in the right direction.

That's all well and good but the fact of the matter is that Gibbs had his worst season last year with his players. Those weren't Spurrier's players that we were losing with last season. That was a roster that Gibbs put together. I also don't really understand why you're giving Gibbs a pass for his first season back. Greg Williams had mostly Spurrier players on his defense that year and they were still a top 10 unit. And even if you do away with that first season like u inexplicably want to do, Gibbs is still 20-21 in his second tenure, which is a mediocre record. Three and half years in and he has done a terrible job fixing our offense, which still can't play with any explosiveness or consistency.

[Mursilis]

Gibbs took a Spurrier team with college level coaching to the playoffs in his second year. He had a down year and is now 4-3. Since 12/32 teams make the playoffs each year, which is just over 1 out of 3, Gibbs has met the NFL average while turning over most of the roster, finding a QB of the future and putting us in contention to go back to the playoffs this year. Which if we do would be more playoff appearances then in the 11 years he was gone. And if we lose in the first round he will sill have won as many playoff games as we did in the 11 years.

Yeah, posting some good points there, no accountability, it's all his fault. String him up, what an incompetent.

You make a good case, but you set a low bar. Of the coaches we've had since Gibbs I, only one even reached .500 over their career as 'skin head coach. Doing better than that sorry crowd is hardly an achievement (and Gibbs still hasn't matched Schotty's 'career' average of .500 - yes, I know it was only one season). And regarding making the playoffs, you said yourself Gibbs 'met the average' - so? That's great and all, but I think we were all hoping for something more than average when he came back. Gibbs certainly wasn't average the first time he was in town. You don't make the HOF for being average. Maybe we're all the victims of too-high expectations, but Gibbs II has certainly been underwhelming. Average is about all it's been.

Gibbs II has made the playoffs one out of three seasons so far, with a good chance to make it two out of four this season. No one can count the first year back against him, he was fighting against 12 years of mediocrity. It takes a little while to undo all of the damage his predecessors, especially the immediate one, did to our roster.

If the roster was so bad when Gibbs rolled into town, how was Williams able to fashion a top 3 defense out of it? 2004 was a disappointment largely because Gibbs let his personal friendship with Brunell cloud his judgment. Of the 10 games we lost that year, 7 of them were by a TD or less. If Gibbs hadn't been so stubborn and put Ramsey in earlier and we'd won only two more of those close games, we might've made the playoffs that year. 8-8 was actually good enough to make the playoffs in 2004. The 2004 team wasn't half-bad; the defense was top 3, and Portis put up 1315 yards on the ground. The only real weak link was Mr. Dink-n-Dunk, and that was purely Gibb's call.

How many players currently on the roster, were here under Spurrier? Samuels, Jansen, and ... well I can't think of anyone else. You can't just overhaul a team's roster in a year in the salary cap age. He took us to the playoffs in his second season back, and has had one poor season since. I think even Vince Lombardi would have had trouble winning games with the hand Gibbs II has been dealt. You have to give him enough time to finish what he has started, yet so many (undoubtedly young) fans seem to want to cast him aside for some mythic "coach-god" who just doesn't exist. Anybody who came in now would be benefiting from all the hard work Joe has put in turning this organization around. Once he has righted the ship, then we may be able to add pieces, a la the Patriots, and ride the dynasty wave, but if you go changing horses in mid-stream every few years that will never happen. Show a little patience people, we are going in the right direction.

I'll believe it when I see it. For all the good moves Gibbs has made (and I'm not denying the fact he's brought in some good players), there's been about as many busts, and even some of the good players have cost too much, leaving us with no draft picks and/or no cap room, such that when a starter goes down, the back-up is terrible.

[CanesSkins26]

Not that I agree with your assessment that Gibbs has done those things.

So you think it was worth paying Arch his contract and then not even letting him play? You think that we should've given Lloyd that $30 million deal before he had even played one down for us when he still had a year left on his original contract? And you think the best #3 receiver that we have on our roster is James Thrash? His 3 receptions and 16 yards have really contributed to our offense this season

[Deadskins]

I also don't really understand why you're giving Gibbs a pass for his first season back. Greg Williams had mostly Spurrier players on his defense that year and they were still a top 10 unit.

Gibbs does not now, nor has he ever run the defense. Neither did Spurrier. He is head coach, and in his first tenure did not pick the talent on the team. That job was Bobby Beathard's and later Charlie Casserly's. Richie Petitbon was his DC. Spurrier had Marvin Lewis to thank for the defense which GW inherited, Where has the majority of our drafting focus been since Gibbs came back? Into GW's defense. Yes he inherited some good players, some of whom left for bigger paydays elsewhere (Walt Harris, Antonio Pierce). Need I remind all you haters, that it was the defense, not the offense that didn't show up last season? We have made serious upgrades to team speed on defense this year (MacIntosh, Fletcher, Landry). Carter has started to regain the form he showed before SF tried to make him a LB not a DE, his natural position. Aging, injury-prone veterans (Arrington, Salvea) have been phased out for younger, healthier players. Healthy linemen have allowed us to rush the passer without all of the heavy blitz schemes that failed so miserably last year. Man you guys have short memories. On offense, our primary problems stem from injuries (Jansen, Thomas, Rabach, Wade, Heyer, ARE, Portis, Moss), and Dockery leaving for a big payday in Buffalo (not that Kendall hasn't filled in admirably). How can you not give Gibbs a pass on his first season back? Did Belicheat win in his first year with the Pats? No. Did Dungy win in his first year with the Colts? No. Did The Jaw win in his first year with Pittsburgh? No. Did Shottenheimer win in his first season with San Diego? No. You can't expect a first year turnaround in the NFL these days.

[CanesSkins26]

Greg Williams had mostly Spurrier players on his defense that year and they were still a top 10 unit.

Gibbs does not now, nor has he ever run the defense. Neither did Spurrier. He is head coach, and in his first tenure did not pick the talent on the team. That job was Bobby Beathard's and later Charlie Casserly's. Richie Petitbon was his DC. Spurrier had Marvin Lewis to thank for the defense which GW inherited, Where has the majority of our drafting focus been since Gibbs came back? Into GW's defense. Yes he inherited some good players, some of whom left for bigger paydays elsewhere (Walt Harris, Antonio Pierce). Need I remind all you haters, that it was the defense, not the offense that didn't show up last season? We have made serious upgrades to team speed on defense this year (MacIntosh, Fletcher, Landry). Carter has started to regain the form he showed before SF tried to make him a LB not a DE, his natural position. Aging, injury-prone veterans (Arrington, Salvea) have been phased out for younger, healthier players. Healthy linemen have allowed us to rush the passer without all of the heavy blitz schemes that failed so miserably last year. Man you guys have short memories. On offense, our primary problems stem from injuries (Jansen, Thomas, Rabach, Wade, Heyer, ARE, Portis, Moss), and Dockery leaving for a big payday in Buffalo (not that Kendall hasn't filled in admirably).

Changing your argument all of a sudden?? We weren't talking about this season or last season. You made the claim that Gibbs should get a pass for his first season because he inherited a mess from Spurrier. I simply pointed out that Greg Williams inherited those same Spurrier players and yet he managed to field a top 4 defense in both yards and points allowed, while Gibbs managed his offense to 31st in points and 30th in yards. So if those Spurrier players were so awful and the team was such a mess, why was GW able to field one of the best defenses in the NFL and Gibbs one of the worst offenses in the league?

[Deadskins]

Not that I agree with your assessment that Gibbs has done those things.

So you think it was worth paying Arch his contract and then not even letting him play? You think that we should've given Lloyd that $30 million deal before he had even played one down for us when he still had a year left on his original contract? And you think the best #3 receiver that we have on our roster is James Thrash? His 3 receptions and 16 yards have really contributed to our offense this season

Well, I think that I trust Joe a lot more than you when it comes to football decisions. Should you let a player play, just because he has a big contract, even if he is not the best player available at a position? Should you let a high-priced player play, if his attitude and conduct is disrespectful and detrimental to the team, just because you reworked his contract as part of the deal to bring him to the club? Should you play a player who has shown tremendous heart, a willingness to play ST to help his team any way he can, and has sure hands if not the fastest feet? I guess that's why The Danny pays Joe the big bucks, and you are just left to bitch about it on a message board.

[Deadskins]

Greg Williams had mostly Spurrier players on his defense that year and they were still a top 10 unit.

Gibbs does not now, nor has he ever run the defense. Neither did Spurrier. He is head coach, and in his first tenure did not pick the talent on the team. That job was Bobby Beathard's and later Charlie Casserly's. Richie Petitbon was his DC. Spurrier had Marvin Lewis to thank for the defense which GW inherited, Where has the majority of our drafting focus been since Gibbs came back? Into GW's defense. Yes he inherited some good players, some of whom left for bigger paydays elsewhere (Walt Harris, Antonio Pierce). Need I remind all you haters, that it was the defense, not the offense that didn't show up last season? We have made serious upgrades to team speed on defense this year (MacIntosh, Fletcher, Landry). Carter has started to regain the form he showed before SF tried to make him a LB not a DE, his natural position. Aging, injury-prone veterans (Arrington, Salvea) have been phased out for younger, healthier players. Healthy linemen have allowed us to rush the passer without all of the heavy blitz schemes that failed so miserably last year. Man you guys have short memories. On offense, our primary problems stem from injuries (Jansen, Thomas, Rabach, Wade, Heyer, ARE, Portis, Moss), and Dockery leaving for a big payday in Buffalo (not that Kendall hasn't filled in admirably).

Changing your argument all of a sudden?? We weren't talking about this season or last season. You made the claim that Gibbs should get a pass for his first season because he inherited a mess from Spurrier. I simply pointed out that Greg Williams inherited those same Spurrier players and yet he managed to field a top 4 defense in both yards and points allowed, while Gibbs managed his offense to 31st in points and 30th in yards. So if those Spurrier players were so awful and the team was such a mess, why was GW able to field one of the best defenses in the NFL and Gibbs one of the worst offenses in the league?

No change. You simply don't seem to be able to comprehend the point that they weren't Spurrier's players, they were Marvin Lewis's. What was their ranking under Marvin? Gibbs inherited Spurrier's inept offense.

[CanesSkins26]

Did Belicheat win in his first year with the Pats? No. Did Dungy win in his first year with the Colts? No. Did The Jaw win in his first year with Pittsburgh? No. Did Shottenheimer win in his first season with San Diego? No. You can't expect a first year turnaround in the NFL these days.

What in the world are you talking about? Belichick struggled in his first season, but he won the Super Bowl in year two and certainly didn't go 5-11 in his third year. Dungy made the playoffs his first season with the Colts and has never not reached the Playoffs as the head coach of the Colts. Bill Cowher went 11-5 in his first year as Steelers head coach and reached the playoffs in his first 6 seasons in Pittsburgh. So please clarify what your point was by comparing Gibbs to these coaches because they were all successful early on with their new teams and have continued to consistently be successful.

[CanesSkins26]

Greg Williams had mostly Spurrier players on his defense that year and they were still a top 10 unit.

Gibbs does not now, nor has he ever run the defense. Neither did Spurrier. He is head coach, and in his first tenure did not pick the talent on the team. That job was Bobby Beathard's and later Charlie Casserly's. Richie Petitbon was his DC. Spurrier had Marvin Lewis to thank for the defense which GW inherited, Where has the majority of our drafting focus been since Gibbs came back? Into GW's defense. Yes he inherited some good players, some of whom left for bigger paydays elsewhere (Walt Harris, Antonio Pierce). Need I remind all you haters, that it was the defense, not the offense that didn't show up last season? We have made serious upgrades to team speed on defense this year (MacIntosh, Fletcher, Landry). Carter has started to regain the form he showed before SF tried to make him a LB not a DE, his natural position. Aging, injury-prone veterans (Arrington, Salvea) have been phased out for younger, healthier players. Healthy linemen have allowed us to rush the passer without all of the heavy blitz schemes that failed so miserably last year. Man you guys have short memories. On offense, our primary problems stem from injuries (Jansen, Thomas, Rabach, Wade, Heyer, ARE, Portis, Moss), and Dockery leaving for a big payday in Buffalo (not that Kendall hasn't filled in admirably).

Changing your argument all of a sudden?? We weren't talking about this season or last season. You made the claim that Gibbs should get a pass for his first season because he inherited a mess from Spurrier. I simply pointed out that Greg Williams inherited those same Spurrier players and yet he managed to field a top 4 defense in both yards and points allowed, while Gibbs managed his offense to 31st in points and 30th in yards. So if those Spurrier players were so awful and the team was such a mess, why was GW able to field one of the best defenses in the NFL and Gibbs one of the worst offenses in the league?

No change. You simply don't seem to be able to comprehend the point that they weren't Spurrier's players, they were Marvin Lewis's. What was their ranking under Marvin? Gibbs inherited Spurrier's inept offense.

Dude are you serious? First of all, Lewis wasn't even the defensive coordinator under Spurrier in 2003. When Lewis was the defensive coordinator in 2002, our defense was 21st in points allowed and 5th in yards allowed. In 2003, our defense was 25th in yards and 24th in points allowed. GW took a very mediocre unit that was ranked near the bottom of the NFL and turned them into a top 4 unit. Meanwhile, in 2003 our offense was ranked 22nd in points and 23rd in yards. So basically Gibbs took a bad offense and made it worse, while GW took a bad defense and made it one of the best in the league. So once again, what exactly is your point?

[Deadskins]

Did Belicheat win in his first year with the Pats? No. Did Dungy win in his first year with the Colts? No. Did The Jaw win in his first year with Pittsburgh? No. Did Shottenheimer win in his first season with San Diego? No. You can't expect a first year turnaround in the NFL these days.

What in the world are you talking about? Belichick struggled in his first season, but he won the Super Bowl in year two and certainly didn't go 5-11 in his third year. Dungy made the playoffs his first season with the Colts and has never not reached the Playoffs as the head coach of the Colts. Bill Cowher went 11-5 in his first year as Steelers head coach and reached the playoffs in his first 6 seasons in Pittsburgh. So please clarify what your point was by comparing Gibbs to these coaches because they were all successful early on with their new teams and have continued to consistently be successful.

Belichick got lucky when his starting QB, Damon Huard, went down and Tom Brady took over. Still they did not make the playoffs the year after their fist SB win. Dungy inherited a team that had made the playoffs the two previous years with 10+ wins under Jim Mora. He did not have to turn around a struggling franchise. Still, I should not have used he and Cowher as examples. My only defense is that I don't follow the AFC nearly as closely as I do the NFC, and I thought I remembered them struggling in their first seasons as HCs with their new teams. I wasn't trying to say that those three are not good HCs though, just that hindsight is 20-20, and you can't say Gibbs II is a failure yet after only 3 and 7/16ths seasons.

[Champsturf]

Did Belicheat win in his first year with the Pats? No. Did Dungy win in his first year with the Colts? No. Did The Jaw win in his first year with Pittsburgh? No. Did Shottenheimer win in his first season with San Diego? No. You can't expect a first year turnaround in the NFL these days.

What in the world are you talking about? Belichick struggled in his first season, but he won the Super Bowl in year two and certainly didn't go 5-11 in his third year. Dungy made the playoffs his first season with the Colts and has never not reached the Playoffs as the head coach of the Colts. Bill Cowher went 11-5 in his first year as Steelers head coach and reached the playoffs in his first 6 seasons in Pittsburgh. So please clarify what your point was by comparing Gibbs to these coaches because they were all successful early on with their new teams and have continued to consistently be successful.

Belichick got lucky when his starting QB, Damon Huard, went down and Tom Brady took over. Still they did not make the playoffs the year after their fist SB win. Dungy inherited a team that had made the playoffs the two previous years with 10+ wins under Jim Mora. He did not have to turn around a struggling franchise. Still, I should not have used he and Cowher as examples. My only defense is that I don't follow the AFC nearly as closely as I do the NFC, and I thought I remembered them struggling in their first seasons as HCs with their new teams. I wasn't trying to say that those three are not good HCs though, just that hindsight is 20-20, and you can't say Gibbs II is a failure yet after only 3 and 7/16ths seasons.

Sorry you two, I hate to bother you but this was just so wrong, I had to pipe in. Why on Earth would you specify that it was Huard, when we all know it wasn't? If you didn't know and were too lazy to look it up, don't guess. It makes everything else you said (which I find laughable anyway) even less credible. Check yourself, please.

[HEROHAMO]

Did Belicheat win in his first year with the Pats? No. Did Dungy win in his first year with the Colts? No. Did The Jaw win in his first year with Pittsburgh? No. Did Shottenheimer win in his first season with San Diego? No. You can't expect a first year turnaround in the NFL these days.

What in the world are you talking about? Belichick struggled in his first season, but he won the Super Bowl in year two and certainly didn't go 5-11 in his third year. Dungy made the playoffs his first season with the Colts and has never not reached the Playoffs as the head coach of the Colts. Bill Cowher went 11-5 in his first year as Steelers head coach and reached the playoffs in his first 6 seasons in Pittsburgh. So please clarify what your point was by comparing Gibbs to these coaches because they were all successful early on with their new teams and have continued to consistently be successful.

Bellicheck has a guy named Tom Brady. Tony Dungy has a dude named Peyton Manning. You think there is any coincidence there teams make the playoffs?

It took Manning a couple years to reach the level of player he is now. Peyton Manning was not the top QB until maybe five years later. Tom Brady was one of the few who happened to light the league up his first time out.

My point is it takes time to build a SuperBowl winning team. Gibbs inherited some talented players but the whole philosophy and attitude in Redskins camp was in loserville at the time Gibbs came back.

Anyhow, do you think Daniel Snyder would really fire the face of the Redskins before his contract is up? Why are we even talking about firing a guy who won the Skins 3 Superbowls? No way it is gonna happen unless he steps down.

I for one believe Gibbs will build the SuperBowl Roster before he is done. Think about how much talent we can get in the next draft.

I sure do not want to start all over by getting rid of Gibbs. Also the season is not even over yet. We havent even seen if this team will make the playoffs.

[Deadskins]

Did Belicheat win in his first year with the Pats? No. Did Dungy win in his first year with the Colts? No. Did The Jaw win in his first year with Pittsburgh? No. Did Shottenheimer win in his first season with San Diego? No. You can't expect a first year turnaround in the NFL these days.

What in the world are you talking about? Belichick struggled in his first season, but he won the Super Bowl in year two and certainly didn't go 5-11 in his third year. Dungy made the playoffs his first season with the Colts and has never not reached the Playoffs as the head coach of the Colts. Bill Cowher went 11-5 in his first year as Steelers head coach and reached the playoffs in his first 6 seasons in Pittsburgh. So please clarify what your point was by comparing Gibbs to these coaches because they were all successful early on with their new teams and have continued to consistently be successful.

Belichick got lucky when his starting QB, Damon Huard, went down and Tom Brady took over. Still they did not make the playoffs the year after their fist SB win. Dungy inherited a team that had made the playoffs the two previous years with 10+ wins under Jim Mora. He did not have to turn around a struggling franchise. Still, I should not have used he and Cowher as examples. My only defense is that I don't follow the AFC nearly as closely as I do the NFC, and I thought I remembered them struggling in their first seasons as HCs with their new teams. I wasn't trying to say that those three are not good HCs though, just that hindsight is 20-20, and you can't say Gibbs II is a failure yet after only 3 and 7/16ths seasons.

Sorry you two, I hate to bother you but this was just so wrong, I had to pipe in. Why on Earth would you specify that it was Huard, when we all know it wasn't? If you didn't know and were too lazy to look it up, don't guess. It makes everything else you said (which I find laughable anyway) even less credible. Check yourself, please.

Bledsoe/Huard what's the difference. The point was that Brady fell into Belichick's lap due to injury.
And yes, I was drunk-posting last night.
So,

[Champsturf]

Bledsoe/Huard what's the difference. The point was that Brady fell into Belichick's lap due to injury.
And yes, I was drunk-posting last night.
So,

What's the difference? ...5 years ago, quite a bit. This alone says it all about an informed post.

Is it that hard to admit the Pats are a much better organization than the Skins? I'm not saying they have more desire, just better execution in all facets.

I think we have the players, just poor coaching. Should Gibbs step aside, I think so, if the Skins don't make it to at least, the NFC championship game. He seems to be so out of touch with the players he has and how to use them. I don't know who to blame for such bad play calling on offense, but I know that Gibbs has input. Let Saunders do what he was brought here to do. Stop meddling/tweaking. If Gibbs has has much input to what players to draft/pick up via FA, then I actually think he's doing an okay job. Let him keep doing that. (As long as there are NO more pickups like Brunell).

[KazooSkinsFan]

The point was that Brady fell into Belichick's lap due to injury.

So Bilichick doesn't deserve credit for drafting or preparing Brady or recognizing what he had when he shocked the NFL world, including Michigan alums like me in NOT giving highly regarded Bledsoe his job back?

[Deadskins]

The point was that Brady fell into Belichick's lap due to injury.

So Bilichick doesn't deserve credit for drafting or preparing Brady or recognizing what he had when he shocked the NFL world, including Michigan alums like me in NOT giving highly regarded Bledsoe his job back?

I don't know how their FO works, so I'm not sure how much credit he deserves for drafting him. Since he is a defensive coach, I don't give him that much credit for preparing him. I think you would have to be blind not to see that Brady was an upgrade from Bledsoe, but I do give him credit for not following the typical "can't lose your job due to injury" NFL mantra. None of that changes the fact that BB II might have been a replay of BB I, had Bledsoe not gone down.