wheres our pass rush?????

[Redskin in Canada]

Bottom line is, there's alot more to consider than the bleepin pass rush ability of the D-line. ALOT MORE.

Such as, and among other things, .... perhaps stopping the run???

I did not make an argument based exclusively on a deficient pass rush. That is only part of it. But I would go further to support the view that an injury to one of our starter DTs, particularly Griffin, would REALLY put us in a very difficult position with GW or without him.

If Gibbs was convinced that Landry would help us win more games than Jamal Anderson or Okoye, then I'm willing to wait and watch how Landry plays in a Skins uniform.

Joe did the right thing. He took the best possible player IN THE ABSENCE of a good trade-down offer.

A LOT of you are going to remember this thread if:

1) the team -actually- upgrades at the DL, or worse,

2) we die a little more this season, yet -again-.

... the current corps actually isn't all that bad and can play the role required of it under Williams, who does have a track record when it comes to defenses.

For those that continue to disagree with the current approach by the HOF coach and his staff, I would ask the following:

What words more fitting to address this debate on unchallengeable authority and potential injuries than:

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall.
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again.

Why did I not think of THAT???

All we have to do to stop offenses against us and prevent injuries among our DL in the future is to show them a picture of the statue of Joe Gibbs in Canton, Ohio, together with a report with Mr. Williams' track record AHEAD of every game, perhaps during warm ups. They will be either scarred stiff or laughing on the floor during the next couple of hours.

It works in this board ...

[SkinsFreak]

LOOK OUT! THE SKY IS FALLING!

OH MY GOD, WE'RE GOING TO SUCK AGAIN! I JUST KNOW IT! WHAT EVER WILL I DO? I NEED TO TELL EVERYONE RIGHT AWAY!

[SkinsJock]

I trust the coaches we have and value their abilities to put a competitive team together a lot more than the opinions of a lot of fans here! I understand all the reasons why some fans are dis-illusioned and think we cannot succeed but I think these coaches and players have a lot going for them and I do believe a lot of last season's defensive play was an aberration that will be corrected this season.

I was very disapointed last year especially as, IMO, the team looked like an improved version of the previous season - I do not think we were as bad as our record indicates BUT that is all past now and we have some great coaches and players and I think that we will see a much better effort from both this season.

[Redskin in Canada]

I'm nowhere close to being as articulate as Fios is, ...

quod erat demonstrandum (QED)

[brad7686]

Bottom line is, there's alot more to consider than the bleepin pass rush ability of the D-line. ALOT MORE.

Such as, and among other things, .... perhaps stopping the run???

I did not make an argument based exclusively on a deficient pass rush. That is only part of it. But I would go further to support the view that an injury to one of our starter DTs, particularly Griffin, would REALLY put us in a very difficult position with GW or without him.

If Gibbs was convinced that Landry would help us win more games than Jamal Anderson or Okoye, then I'm willing to wait and watch how Landry plays in a Skins uniform.

Joe did the right thing. He took the best possible player IN THE ABSENCE of a good trade-down offer.

A LOT of you are going to remember this thread if:

1) the team -actually- upgrades at the DL, or worse,

2) we die a little more this season, yet -again-.

... the current corps actually isn't all that bad and can play the role required of it under Williams, who does have a track record when it comes to defenses.

For those that continue to disagree with the current approach by the HOF coach and his staff, I would ask the following:

What words more fitting to address this debate on unchallengeable authority and potential injuries than:

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall.
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again.

Why did I not think of THAT???

All we have to do to stop offenses against us and prevent injuries among our DL in the future is to show them a picture of the statue of Joe Gibbs in Canton, Ohio, together with a report with Mr. Williams' track record AHEAD of every game, perhaps during warm ups. They will be either scarred stiff or laughing on the floor during the next couple of hours.

It works in this board ...

word

[Snout]

I trust the coaches we have and value their abilities to put a competitive team together a lot more than the opinions of a lot of fans here!

I do not trust the coaches to assemble a competitive team.

What makes our coaches great is not their ability to moonlight as general managers. The coach's job is mental preparation, game planning, finding weaknesses, hiding weaknesses, getting the players we have to execute at the highest level of their abilities.

The general manager needs to be the visionary. The coach needs to be the tactician. Very few people have the gifts to do both, and to do both well.

[Redskin in Canada]

I do not trust the coaches to assemble a competitive team.

What makes our coaches great is not their ability to moonlight as general managers. The coach's job is mental preparation, game planning, finding weaknesses, hiding weaknesses, getting the players we have to execute at the highest level of their abilities.

The general manager needs to be the visionary. The coach needs to be the tactician. Very few people have the gifts to do both, and to do both well.

Have I mentioned recently anything at all relating to the fact that either:

1) Joe needs help at the Front Office (very soon); or

2) Joe needs to move full time as GM when he finishes his tenure?

I am not sure.

You see Snout, people seem to be happier and more comfortable "hoping for the best" than making an effort to discuss any potential issues which may put our next season at risk. However, there is going to be Joe Gibbs no more after the next season or two. The time to -deliver- the goods is becoming very limited. This coming season is expected to be a time for the Redskins to seriously contend for a Superbowl, not on paper but on the field.

But since enthusiasm and optimism is all that is needed in these discussions, well, let us bring out the cheerleaders with their pom poms and start cheering!!!

[SkinsFreak]

Funny how some are so much happier being miserable. Good luck with that.

They need to do this, they need to do that. They don't know anything. They're gonna suck if they don't do what I say. Their philosophical approach is wrong. I possess greater knowledge. I can predict the future. I'm always right and they're always wrong. I like to use Latin as an insult because I'm so smart and articulate. I never make mistakes. My wisdom is way beyond the wisdom of those in the profession. I am the greatest.



Get it?

[brad7686]

:-({|=

Funny how some are so much happier being miserable. Good luck with that.

They need to do this, they need to do that. They don't know anything. They're gonna suck if they don't do what I say. Their philosophical approach is wrong. I possess greater knowledge. I can predict the future. I'm always right and they're always wrong. I like to use Latin as an insult because I'm so smart and articulate. I never make mistakes. My wisdom is way beyond the wisdom of those in the profession. I am the greatest.



Get it?

Well unless they win this year we are right. Do you think they are gonna win this year?

[SkinsFreak]

:-({|=

Funny how some are so much happier being miserable. Good luck with that.

They need to do this, they need to do that. They don't know anything. They're gonna suck if they don't do what I say. Their philosophical approach is wrong. I possess greater knowledge. I can predict the future. I'm always right and they're always wrong. I like to use Latin as an insult because I'm so smart and articulate. I never make mistakes. My wisdom is way beyond the wisdom of those in the profession. I am the greatest.



Get it?

Well unless they win this year we are right. Do you think they are gonna win this year?

Win what?

The Super Bowl? Probably not. Do I think they make a run at the playoffs like they did the year before last, when they went 5-1 in the division? Absolutely. I think this team is even better than the 2005 team. I don't think they will suck, like some do, just because we didn't draft anyone for the d-line. $0.02

And I don't care who's right and who's wrong, it could be you and it could be me. I don't look at it like that and I don't care. We have no control over it... at all. But I do give the benefit of the doubt to the team and the coaches. I believe they know what they're doing at this point. And until we actually see it play out on the field, we don't. Therefore, I'm willing to at least give them that opportunity before I ignorantly declare it a disaster.

[Fios]

Whoah, whoah, believing the current coaching staff knows what it is doing is tantamount to admitting what a stupid, naive child you are, as I am.

SkinsFreak, it's not worth your time to make points, they won't be addressed. I pointed out yesterday that the Colts d-line sucked last year and the reply to that focused on their offensive line.

If you say you think Williams et al know what they are doing, you're naive and childish. If you say the d-line wasn't THE problem last year, you're wrong, no matter what. If you suggest the d-line, as it stands, can do what is asked of it, you are wrong and, further, you are asked to account for the possibility of injury.

If you point out that all teams face injuries, you're reminded that the FO sucks and we don't have any draft picks and all of our FA signings are terrible. If you point out that we've made a series of solid acquisitions, you're reminded they didn't come in the draft. If you point out that draft picks, especially late picks, are an inherent gamble, you're missing the point entirely which is that our FO sucks and we overpay for everyone. If you point out that is simply not true, you are wrong. If you point out that we've had an off-season that featured smart signings and moves to retain our players, you are reminded that we didn't do that in 2000 and that we don't have any draft picks. If you say you'd like to see the team get a GM, you are reminded that we once signed Bruce Smith and Archuleta was a bad move.

DO NOT read the piece someone posted on the fact that the Redskins, under Williams, generate most of their pressure from the secondary because all that does is ... somehow ... prove you wrong. Do NOT point out that the Redskins haven't had a dominant defensive line under Gibbs yet still went to the playoffs and, even when they didn't, featured top 10 defenses.

And, for god's sake, do not have faith of any type, whatsoever. The people who spend time bashing and ripping and making the same points over and over and over and over and ignoring any evidence to the contrary are older and therefore wiser than you. So just admit the team sucks now, it will suck next year, everything is Snyder's fault, and you will be wise.

[SkinsFreak]

Sorry, I don't know what I was thinking. Once again, you're right. What can I say? I think I should still seek therapy, though.

[Irn-Bru]

My goodness, Fios . . . that was quite the summary. At least now I know what to do.

[brad7686]

Whoah, whoah, believing the current coaching staff knows what it is doing is tantamount to admitting what a stupid, naive child you are, as I am.

SkinsFreak, it's not worth your time to make points, they won't be addressed. I pointed out yesterday that the Colts d-line sucked last year and the reply to that focused on their offensive line.

If you say you think Williams et al know what they are doing, you're naive and childish. If you say the d-line wasn't THE problem last year, you're wrong, no matter what. If you suggest the d-line, as it stands, can do what is asked of it, you are wrong and, further, you are asked to account for the possibility of injury.

If you point out that all teams face injuries, you're reminded that the FO sucks and we don't have any draft picks and all of our FA signings are terrible. If you point out that we've made a series of solid acquisitions, you're reminded they didn't come in the draft. If you point out that draft picks, especially late picks, are an inherent gamble, you're missing the point entirely which is that our FO sucks and we overpay for everyone. If you point out that is simply not true, you are wrong. If you point out that we've had an off-season that featured smart signings and moves to retain our players, you are reminded that we didn't do that in 2000 and that we don't have any draft picks. If you say you'd like to see the team get a GM, you are reminded that we once signed Bruce Smith and Archuleta was a bad move.

DO NOT read the piece someone posted on the fact that the Redskins, under Williams, generate most of their pressure from the secondary because all that does is ... somehow ... prove you wrong. Do NOT point out that the Redskins haven't had a dominant defensive line under Gibbs yet still went to the playoffs and, even when they didn't, featured top 10 defenses.

And, for god's sake, do not have faith of any type, whatsoever. The people who spend time bashing and ripping and making the same points over and over and over and over and ignoring any evidence to the contrary are older and therefore wiser than you. So just admit the team sucks now, it will suck next year, everything is Snyder's fault, and you will be wise.

Actually, in reference to the colts, they have a great defensive line in terms of the pass rush, which led to difficulty in passing against them. They just had no one on the team who could stop the run, until bob sanders got healthy. That made them a better defense for the playoffs.

[Fios]

Actually, in reference to the colts, they have a great defensive line in terms of the pass rush, which led to difficulty in passing against them. They just had no one on the team who could stop the run, until bob sanders got healthy. That made them a better defense for the playoffs.

By great, you mean tied for second-worst in the league, right? And, just out of curiosity, where does Sanders play?

[SkinsJock]

..Actually, in reference to the colts, they have a great defensive line in terms of the pass rush, which led to difficulty in passing against them. They just had no one on the team who could stop the run, until bob sanders got healthy. That made them a better defense for the playoffs.

Actually.... the most important feature of the Colts defense was the offensive unit - they rarely had to do anything to win the game - the offense could control the tempo and the other team was always struggling to overcome the Colts offensive efforts.

This D was ranked pretty low during the season - the offense ran this program

[HEROHAMO]

Whoah, whoah, believing the current coaching staff knows what it is doing is tantamount to admitting what a stupid, naive child you are, as I am.

SkinsFreak, it's not worth your time to make points, they won't be addressed. I pointed out yesterday that the Colts d-line sucked last year and the reply to that focused on their offensive line.

If you say you think Williams et al know what they are doing, you're naive and childish. If you say the d-line wasn't THE problem last year, you're wrong, no matter what. If you suggest the d-line, as it stands, can do what is asked of it, you are wrong and, further, you are asked to account for the possibility of injury.

If you point out that all teams face injuries, you're reminded that the FO sucks and we don't have any draft picks and all of our FA signings are terrible. If you point out that we've made a series of solid acquisitions, you're reminded they didn't come in the draft. If you point out that draft picks, especially late picks, are an inherent gamble, you're missing the point entirely which is that our FO sucks and we overpay for everyone. If you point out that is simply not true, you are wrong. If you point out that we've had an off-season that featured smart signings and moves to retain our players, you are reminded that we didn't do that in 2000 and that we don't have any draft picks. If you say you'd like to see the team get a GM, you are reminded that we once signed Bruce Smith and Archuleta was a bad move.

DO NOT read the piece someone posted on the fact that the Redskins, under Williams, generate most of their pressure from the secondary because all that does is ... somehow ... prove you wrong. Do NOT point out that the Redskins haven't had a dominant defensive line under Gibbs yet still went to the playoffs and, even when they didn't, featured top 10 defenses.

And, for god's sake, do not have faith of any type, whatsoever. The people who spend time bashing and ripping and making the same points over and over and over and over and ignoring any evidence to the contrary are older and therefore wiser than you. So just admit the team sucks now, it will suck next year, everything is Snyder's fault, and you will be wise.

Actually, in reference to the colts, they have a great defensive line in terms of the pass rush, which led to difficulty in passing against them. They just had no one on the team who could stop the run, until bob sanders got healthy. That made them a better defense for the playoffs.

Dude at least wait and see what the season looks like. This year our scheduele is alot weaker. Also our division rivals have been weakened as well. Tiki Barber has left town,Eagles and Mcnabb have one year left on the contract, Cowboys lost Parcells, and all the while we have had stability this is our third year with Gibbs.
Yeah we didnt draft a Dlineman in the draft. So what?
So we draft a bum just to address a need? Nah! Our Dline is ok right now.
We do need to get younger but these guys when healthy can play. Well they can stop the run. Carter can provide some pressure off the edge.
The front office did the best they could with the situation at hand.
You have to remember we had five picks total in the draft, and most of them in the latter parts of the draft. We are fine this team will contend for a playoff spot.
Let me just jot down the talent we have assembled ey,Portis,Lloyd,Antwan Randle El,Mike Sellers,Marcus Washington,Lemar Marshall, Fred SMoot,Shawn Springs,London Fletcher,R. Mcintosh, Sean Taylor, Leron Landry, and many more...
I will go out on a limb and say our Defense will return to form.
No.5 Overall defense in 2008. Our offense will be no.6 overall. Making this team a contender. I am gonna say even a SuperBowl contender.
With our defense playing solid and healthy. We could go with pound the rock all day with portis and Ladell? But I believe this year our offense will open up alot more, we will see much more playaction, also three wide reciever sets. Jason Campbell has been moving along nicely so I expect a great improvement in him. Our team will go as far as J.C. takes us. Which will be far.

[UK Skins Fan]

I think offseason grumpiness has well and truly set in around these parts.

I've seen some negative threads on these boards, but I didn't think this one was bad?


To try to answer the question at the start of the thread, perhaps these might help:

Once the 2004 Pro Bowl pick is back on the field, the Redskins plan to use him more often with his hand down in passing situations.
"We want to rush Marcus more," coach Joe Gibbs said.
That's fine with Washington, a defensive end as a senior at Auburn before switching to linebacker with Indianapolis, where he played his first four NFL seasons. Washington recorded a career-high eight sacks in 2001, his first year as a starter.
"I like being aggressive, I like attacking," Washington said with a grin. "It won't be so much re-routing guys and more of just reading the quarterback and going. When I first came into the league, I did more rushing than anything. I'm excited. I'm going to have to shake some of the rust off and really work that part of my game. It's going to be fun because you get to kind of cut it loose a little bit."

(http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20070510-120707-6526r.htm)

“All I know is we are attacking more as far as our line,” Redskins end Renaldo Wynn said of his early impressions from the organized team activities. “I notice a difference in how we’re playing more aggressive and keeping more guys on the field to rush.”

But the Redskins hope that Cornelius Griffin and Phillip Daniels will be fully healthy.... They hope second-year tackles Kedric Golston and Anthony Montgomery make enough progress.

“We’re still in the market if people become available,” Williams said. “But we did a good job of bringing in young guys last year.”

But the coaches have also told the linemen they will be freed up to rush more. The players have said that Williams almost apologized to them for how they were used last year.

“It’s establishing more one-on-one matchups,” Carter said, “and having the four-man front get after it and let it loose. We’re excited knowing that’s what they’re gonna do; now it’s our time to shine.”

(http://www.examiner.com/a-720043~Defensive_line_looking_to_become_the_aggressors.html)

[Redskin in Canada]

The level of the debate already dropped several notches notwithstanding the good efforts made by several posters on our side of the argument, such as old-timer, Snout and myself. Even brad has been good in this thread.

If and when some of you on the Dark Side wish to engage in an analysis whether supportive or even critical of the Team without calling names or alleging that anybody has called you names, I will be happy to oblige.

In the meantime, peace brothers.

[SkinsFreak]

the good efforts made by several posters on our side of the argument

If and when some of you on the Dark Side

Classic. . .

Peace!

[brad7686]

Actually, in reference to the colts, they have a great defensive line in terms of the pass rush, which led to difficulty in passing against them. They just had no one on the team who could stop the run, until bob sanders got healthy. That made them a better defense for the playoffs.

By great, you mean tied for second-worst in the league, right? And, just out of curiosity, where does Sanders play?

Whoa i didn't say they were a great defense, sport. All i said is that the D-line wasn't their biggest issue. It was that nobody on the entire team could stop the run. And Bob Sanders is a safety, don't really know what your point is there, guessing its in relation to the landry pick, but the landry pick isnt really relevant to the current pass rush.

[SkinsFreak]

Let me help you out a little, Brad. Talk about missing this one completely...

Whoa i didn't say they were a great defense, sport. All i said is that the D-line wasn't their biggest issue.

Go back and click the link Fios provided you. He wasn't talking about the overall defense either. The Colts were tied for second worst in the league in total sacks. So their d-line that includes Dwight Freeney did have issues.

And Bob Sanders is a safety, don't really know what your point is there, guessing its in relation to the landry pick, but the landry pick isnt really relevant to the current pass rush

Don't know much about Landry OR defense in general, do you? Please go to youtube.com and search for Landry's videos. When you've found them, look at where a vast majority of Landry's best plays happen. The fact is, safeties are vital in providing pressure on the QB, as well as run support, as are linebackers, and is especially important and prevalent in Williams' system. Have you ever seen Sean Taylor attack the runner at the line of scrimmage? Both Sean and LaRon are great against the run.

A cornerbacks primary role is to defend against the pass, although they do more in Williams' schemes. Even though a safety plays in the secondary, they are regularly involved in blitzing and run support along with pass defense. That's the beauty of Gregg's defense; he can bring pressure from anywhere and everywhere, all the while the QB has no idea where it will come from.

[brad7686]

Let me help you out a little, Brad. Talk about missing this one completely...

Whoa i didn't say they were a great defense, sport. All i said is that the D-line wasn't their biggest issue.

Go back and click the link Fios provided you. He wasn't talking about the overall defense either. The Colts were tied for second worst in the league in total sacks. So their d-line that includes Dwight Freeney did have issues.

And Bob Sanders is a safety, don't really know what your point is there, guessing its in relation to the landry pick, but the landry pick isnt really relevant to the current pass rush

Don't know much about Landry OR defense in general, do you? Please go to youtube.com and search for Landry's videos. When you've found them, look at where a vast majority of Landry's best plays happen. The fact is, safeties are vital in providing pressure on the QB, as well as run support, as are linebackers, and is especially important and prevalent in Williams' system. Have you ever seen Sean Taylor attack the runner at the line of scrimmage? Both Sean and LaRon are great against the run.

A cornerbacks primary role is to defend against the pass, although they do more in Williams' schemes. Even though a safety plays in the secondary, they are regularly involved in blitzing and run support along with pass defense. That's the beauty of Gregg's defense; he can bring pressure from anywhere and everywhere, all the while the QB has no idea where it will come from.

I will say i was unaware of the colts sacks struggle last year, but im guessing the skins were last so they were better than them anyway. Besides, the colts have been a productive pass rushing team recently, unlike the skins. And as far as landry goes, i stand by that statement. He is a safety. He won't be able to pass rush in the NFL all the time like he did in college. If he is asked to, our pass protection will be in trouble.

[SkinsFreak]

And as far as landry goes, i stand by that statement. He is a safety. He won't be able to pass rush in the NFL all the time like he did in college. If he is asked to, our pass protection will be in trouble.

You're right, I'm not sure how Landry will help with our pass protection.

Dude, please... study some game film. Safeties blitz the passer all the time in the NFL. Landry will be able to blitz the QB just like he did in college, and I can guarantee Williams will continue to use him in that capacity. Landry has all the skills; he can blitz with his 4.35 speed, he is great in run support with his big hits (ala Sean Taylor), and he is good in coverage. I promise you that Gregg will take full advantage of all Landry's talents, as well he should.

[brad7686]

And as far as landry goes, i stand by that statement. He is a safety. He won't be able to pass rush in the NFL all the time like he did in college. If he is asked to, our pass protection will be in trouble.

You're right, I'm not sure how Landry will help with our pass protection.

Dude, please... study some game film. Safeties blitz the passer all the time in the NFL. Landry will be able to blitz the QB just like he did in college, and I can guarantee Williams will continue to use him in that capacity. Landry has all the skills; he can blitz with his 4.35 speed, he is great in run support with his big hits (ala Sean Taylor), and he is good in coverage. I promise you that Gregg will take full advantage of all Landry's talents, as well he should.

Yea, i know, its called a safety blitz. But its not done often in the NFL like it is done in college because the passing games are more efficient. Stop making sweeping assertions like you know more about football than me. After all, you think Dallas Sartz is a justifiable fifth round pick.