The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

brad7686 wrote:Betts is averaging 4.7 ypc this year. Portis is averaging 4.1, and only averaged 4.3 last year. In Denver, he averaged 5.5 yards per carry twice. Which goes along with what i have been saying the whole time. He does not fit the redskins running scheme. He has no patience. He has no instincts. He misses holes. He is not a smart runner. He is very talented, but he has not displayed it here like he did in denver, because he is not the type of runner that can run behind big blockers. He is one of Shanahan's system runningbacks that are overrated. Look at what happened to reuben droughns after he left denver. Look at what happened to Mike Anderson after he left Denver. It is the system, not the backs. Portis is the best of that bunch, but he is overrated and should be traded because it is possible to get more than he is worth in return. I'm not sure Betts would get what he is worth on the open market. He has 47 receptions for 400 yards to go along with over a thousand rushing when he has been a BACKUP for half the season. PORTIS IS NOT SO MUCH BETTER THAN BETTS LIKE EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD SEEMS TO ASSUME ALL THE TIME WITHOUT ACTUALLY THINKING.

I disagree. CP hasn't been in the position that Betts is. Our passing game is light years ahead of what MB ever accomplished as a Redskin. JC has defenses back on their heels. CP would be doing better than Betts if he was in this situation and he would NOT have fumbled the ball last week. Betts has butter fingers and for that reason he will never be a featured back.

So you're saying that Jake Plummer puts defenses on their heels? Lol. I mean how else could Portis have done well right? I don't think you can give Campbell all the credit for Betts success. Teams still know Gibbs/Saunders. Teams still know they are going to run on first down almost all the time. They still can't stop it. It could just as easily be said that Betts opens it up for Campbell. Its not like teams are going to take everyone out of the box because an unproven rookie quarterback is in the game. There are very few runningbacks that are hitting the hole as decisively as betts is right now.

maybe we could trade Portis for Champ Bailey, that guy's pretty good and he has more INTs than our whole team...

brad7686 wrote:So you're saying that Jake Plummer puts defenses on their heels? Lol. I mean how else could Portis have done well right? I don't think you can give Campbell all the credit for Betts success. Teams still know Gibbs/Saunders. Teams still know they are going to run on first down almost all the time. They still can't stop it. It could just as easily be said that Betts opens it up for Campbell. Its not like teams are going to take everyone out of the box because an unproven rookie quarterback is in the game. There are very few runningbacks that are hitting the hole as decisively as betts is right now.

So we get rid of the player who had success as a redskin, the player who set a franchise record....

We get rid of him for a player who has often been injured, has a history of fumbling the ball, fumbled in crunch time for us, doesn't pass block too well and is all of a sudden on a hot streak?

Im happy for Betts but he's nothing more than a #2 here. CP is the man, he's the one that took the team on his back.

But you're right ridding oursevles of CP falls right in line with the sequence of assinine personel moves we've all grown accustomred to.

Do you care to back up your argument with stats or anything? Or do you want to continue to make the same uniform comments as everyone else. I will agree that the fumbles are an issue though. He needs to get the Tiki treatment in the offseason. You didn't even pay attention to my argument. Yes, portis set the redskins rushing record, but he only averaged 4.3 a carry. That means that A. the accomplishment isn't THAT impressive, and B. Gibbs ran him to death last year. I like Portis ok and all, but he was NOT worth Champ Bailey. His production has fallen off severely since he left denver. That was a dumb move, runningbacks are everywhere. Corners... not so much. I think the skins proved that this year.

brad7686 wrote:Do you care to back up your argument with stats or anything? Or do you want to continue to make the same uniform comments as everyone else. I will agree that the fumbles are an issue though. He needs to get the Tiki treatment in the offseason. You didn't even pay attention to my argument. Yes, portis set the redskins rushing record, but he only averaged 4.3 a carry. That means that A. the accomplishment isn't THAT impressive, and B. Gibbs ran him to death last year.

You want stats? How about this? Betts has been in the league 5 years, and is only finishing his second season in which he's played all 16 games - he clearly has injury issues. Additionally, this is his first season in which he's had more than 100 carries, so there's no proof he can survive a full 16-game schedule (never mind the postseason) as the feature back. It would be dumb to trade Portis at this point, what with Duckett likely being gone next year. Portis is a) too valuable to this team as a proven feature back, and b) we'd never get good trade value for him anyway, coming off an injury like he is.

brad7686 wrote:Do you care to back up your argument with stats or anything? Or do you want to continue to make the same uniform comments as everyone else. I will agree that the fumbles are an issue though. He needs to get the Tiki treatment in the offseason. You didn't even pay attention to my argument. Yes, portis set the redskins rushing record, but he only averaged 4.3 a carry. That means that A. the accomplishment isn't THAT impressive, and B. Gibbs ran him to death last year. I like Portis ok and all, but he was NOT worth Champ Bailey. His production has fallen off severely since he left denver. That was a dumb move, runningbacks are everywhere. Corners... not so much. I think the skins proved that this year.

Dumb move? Bailey would have left and we would have gotten nothing for him. What do you suggest the team do?

Yeah, Gibbs ran him to death and Portis never fumbled a game away.

Portis got the record with 8 guys in the box last year, Betts isnt seeing that and thats a fact.

Look at what happened to Mike Anderson after he left Denver. It is the system, not the backs.

Droughs ran for 1232 yards in 2005 for the Browns, which was only 8 yards short of the career high of 1240 that he had with the Broncos in 2004.

So you're saying that Jake Plummer puts defenses on their heels? Lol. I mean how else could Portis have done well right?

Again check your facts. Plummer only started 11 games in which Portis played while he was on the Broncos, all in 2003. And in those 11 games Plummer posted a qb rating 91.2, threw 15 td's and only 7 int's. So yes he was putting defenses on their heels that season.

Do you care to back up your argument with stats or anything? Or do you want to continue to make the same uniform comments as everyone else. I will agree that the fumbles are an issue though. He needs to get the Tiki treatment in the offseason. You didn't even pay attention to my argument. Yes, portis set the redskins rushing record, but he only averaged 4.3 a carry. That means that A. the accomplishment isn't THAT impressive, and B. Gibbs ran him to death last year. I like Portis ok and all, but he was NOT worth Champ Bailey. His production has fallen off severely since he left denver. That was a dumb move, runningbacks are everywhere. Corners... not so much. I think the skins proved that this year.

You keep harping on Betts' 4.7 yards per carry. Well you conviniently ignore, or didn't take the time to research, the quality of the defenses that Betts faced this season compared to the types of defenses that Portis ran against last season in setting the Skins single season record and averaging 4.3 ypc. The fact is that the defenses that Betts has rushed against this season are pathetic against the run. In his starts he has faced the 31st, 10th, 13th, 17th, 24th, and 26th ranked rushing defenses. Last season Portis faced some of the best rushing defenses in the NFL, including the 1st, 2nd, 6th, 7th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 15th(twice) ranked defenses. Porits, in 16 starts last year, only ran againt 4 defenses ranked outside the top 15 against the run. Betts, this years, in his 6 starts has only faced 2 defenses ranked higher than 15th, the other 4 were all in the bottom half of the NFL against the run.

Portis played in 8 games this season, 6 of which were starts and 2 games saw him only get a few carries as a result of injuries. Depsite playing in less games, with worse blocking, and a worse passing game, Portis ran for 7 td's (which led the NFC when his season ended). Betts, playing in 15 games and starting 8, only has 4 td's. Betts also has more fumbles (5) than td's this season (4). Portis, with his 7 td's this year, didn't fumble the ball once.

Portis, in his career, has 158 receptions and 1385 rushing attempts, 56 td's, and only 16 fumbles. Betts on the other hand, has 99 receptions and 546 rushes, yet has only managed to score 10 td's and has fumbled a staggering 10 times. Portis has a nose for the endzone and protects the ball. Betts fumbles and doesn't score often.

Betts also doesn't have anywhere near the breakaway speed that Portis does. Betts' longest career run is 27 yards. That's right, only 27 yards. Portis' long is 65 yards. Portis' shortest season long run is 38 yards (this season), which is still 11 yards longer than Betts' career long.

Betts is more injury prone than Portis. Despite the amount of carries that Portis has racked up during his career so far this is the first year in which he has missed significant time because of injury. Betts, despite being a full time backup before this season, has missed significant time in half of his NFL seasons.

Portis is also a far superior pass blocker than Portis. I don't have any stats for you on that but it's clear from watching them that Portis is much better in this area than Betts.

Incredible post Canes, you single handedly ended this stupid debate. I can't wait to see what Brad says next.

I bet $2 he either...

1. Disreguards the facts in your post and goes in a different direction.
2. Disreguards the facts in your post and attack me.

i commend you SkinzCanes

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sUQuaza4ytM

just watch that and you'll remember why Portis is better.

SkinzCanes wrote:

Look at what happened to Mike Anderson after he left Denver. It is the system, not the backs.

Droughs ran for 1232 yards in 2005 for the Browns, which was only 8 yards short of the career high of 1240 that he had with the Broncos in 2004.

So you're saying that Jake Plummer puts defenses on their heels? Lol. I mean how else could Portis have done well right?

Again check your facts. Plummer only started 11 games in which Portis played while he was on the Broncos, all in 2003. And in those 11 games Plummer posted a qb rating 91.2, threw 15 td's and only 7 int's. So yes he was putting defenses on their heels that season.

Do you care to back up your argument with stats or anything? Or do you want to continue to make the same uniform comments as everyone else. I will agree that the fumbles are an issue though. He needs to get the Tiki treatment in the offseason. You didn't even pay attention to my argument. Yes, portis set the redskins rushing record, but he only averaged 4.3 a carry. That means that A. the accomplishment isn't THAT impressive, and B. Gibbs ran him to death last year. I like Portis ok and all, but he was NOT worth Champ Bailey. His production has fallen off severely since he left denver. That was a dumb move, runningbacks are everywhere. Corners... not so much. I think the skins proved that this year.

You keep harping on Betts' 4.7 yards per carry. Well you conviniently ignore, or didn't take the time to research, the quality of the defenses that Betts faced this season compared to the types of defenses that Portis ran against last season in setting the Skins single season record and averaging 4.3 ypc. The fact is that the defenses that Betts has rushed against this season are pathetic against the run. In his starts he has faced the 31st, 10th, 13th, 17th, 24th, and 26th ranked rushing defenses. Last season Portis faced some of the best rushing defenses in the NFL, including the 1st, 2nd, 6th, 7th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 15th(twice) ranked defenses. Porits, in 16 starts last year, only ran againt 4 defenses ranked outside the top 15 against the run. Betts, this years, in his 6 starts has only faced 2 defenses ranked higher than 15th, the other 4 were all in the bottom half of the NFL against the run.

Portis played in 8 games this season, 6 of which were starts and 2 games saw him only get a few carries as a result of injuries. Depsite playing in less games, with worse blocking, and a worse passing game, Portis ran for 7 td's (which led the NFC when his season ended). Betts, playing in 15 games and starting 8, only has 4 td's. Betts also has more fumbles (5) than td's this season (4). Portis, with his 7 td's this year, didn't fumble the ball once.

Portis, in his career, has 158 receptions and 1385 rushing attempts, 56 td's, and only 16 fumbles. Betts on the other hand, has 99 receptions and 546 rushes, yet has only managed to score 10 td's and has fumbled a staggering 10 times. Portis has a nose for the endzone and protects the ball. Betts fumbles and doesn't score often.

Betts also doesn't have anywhere near the breakaway speed that Portis does. Betts' longest career run is 27 yards. That's right, only 27 yards. Portis' long is 65 yards. Portis' shortest season long run is 38 yards (this season), which is still 11 yards longer than Betts' career long.

Betts is more injury prone than Portis. Despite the amount of carries that Portis has racked up during his career so far this is the first year in which he has missed significant time because of injury. Betts, despite being a full time backup before this season, has missed significant time in half of his NFL seasons.

Portis is also a far superior pass blocker than Portis. I don't have any stats for you on that but it's clear from watching them that Portis is much better in this area than Betts.

Who was the other Qb? Griese? That is even worse. And did you try and use Portis career reception numbers against betts? Of course Portis will have more because he has started the last 5 years. Betts has been a backup and has like 2/3 the amount as portis still. Clinton Portis couldn't catch a cold half the time. Other than that, i suppose the rush defense argument is valid. Portis still wasn't worth bailey, who would have stayed here for the right price. Like I said, Portis numbers have fallen off a lot since Denver, and Bailey has been great.

brad7686 wrote: Portis still wasn't worth bailey, who would have stayed here for the right price. Like I said, Portis numbers have fallen off a lot since Denver, and Bailey has been great.

Need to check them facts AGAIN Champ was out of here regardless of the offer and he made that known to anyone that would listen. Portis numbers are down but that's what you get when you change teams (new Lineman to get use to, and the line has to learn the back). This is the type of debate that teams that don't go anywhere have.

Two good backs both capable of carrying the load if one goes down, both complement the other and we debate which one should be traded.

A better argument would be... Who would bring in the most?

One... will be coming off his worst year as a pro and was plagued by injuries, he had more carries the year before his injury year than any year in his career and if you get him now it'll be just in time because he's coimg up on the tale-end of a backloaded contract.

or

The Other One... Never given a second look by anone in the league until this past month but having a hell of a year over a 1000 yards on the ground and a game to go. Good hands which will come in handy running in the flats (you don't want to leave him back there for blitz pick up). He's already been paid a nice signing bonus but the we'll want a little something for taking care of that for them.

Who brings in the most is a better way to look at it.

Then we can look at what is lost when we split this pair up and would it be worth it.

brad7686 wrote:[Portis still wasn't worth bailey, who would have stayed here for the right price. Like I said, Portis numbers have fallen off a lot since Denver, and Bailey has been great.

Are you ignoring the fact that Bailey did not want to be a redskin?

Great post, SkinzCanes. You went exactly where I would have. Here's a question for you, brad.

Let's say the Skins run a backfield with both Betts and Portis. Which one do you think the defensive coordinator is more concerned with?

Betts, who can't run past 15 yards (well, when he does, he fumbles it seems), or Portis who is a threat to go the distance every single time he touches the ball.

Hmm. That's a tough one.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

brad7686 wrote:[Portis still wasn't worth bailey, who would have stayed here for the right price. Like I said, Portis numbers have fallen off a lot since Denver, and Bailey has been great.

Are you ignoring the fact that Bailey did not want to be a redskin?

Let alone the "right price" is more than Springs & Griffin were signed for. Each year.

9 million a year was Bailey's "right price". Not like a Redskins contract, with a hyperinflated end value, his contract averaged to 9 million per year, every year.

Bailey is paid more than Brees & only a million less per year than Peyton Manning. If that's your "right price" have at it.

I think he is more concerned with the guy who can actually get first downs on a consistent basis. And bailey is worth 9 milllion a year with the responsibility of corners these days, and the lack of ones that can do the job.

brad7686 wrote:I think he is more concerned with the guy who can actually get first downs on a consistent basis. And bailey is worth 9 milllion a year with the responsibility of corners these days, and the lack of ones that can do the job.

I'm a Bailey guy, but c'mon ....really. Bailey was gone no matter what. He hated this team...they SUCKED!!!! He was leaving no matter what Snyder tried to throw his way. GET OVER IT!!!

As far as the THREAD is concerned, Portis worries defenses MUCH more than Betts. I have no facts (they've already been posted), but I can see the way the box is stacked against Portis and not Betts. Portis was our only option with Brunell in there. Now we actually have someone that will at least TRY to throw the deep ball. That alone will keep the D more honest. Not to mention, this line is blocking its collective ARSE off now, and able to do so due to the lack of defenders coming their way.

Get off your high horse Brad and just admit that you're in love with Bailey and have a vendetta against Portis.

Bailey is a more valuable player than Portis. If we could have kept Bailey and signed him long term and gotten this sortof production out of Betts for the last 3 years, I'm sure anyone would've made that move.

But that wasn't an option. Bailey wanted out so we had to accomodate him. Would you rather have waited until Bailey was an FA and then lost him for nothing?

The Portis-Bailey trade worked out well for both teams. Why we threw in a 2nd round pick I'm not sure.

But I digress...

Turning back to the question at hand: the best thing that we can do to help the development of Jason Campbell is to keep the pass rush away, and don't put the ball game in his hands every week. Best way to do that is to have a running game that is a threat on every down, and will pound the opposition to a point where the play action pass is wide open.

We have a chance of having that kind of running game, especially now that Gibbs seems to have reiterated the need to run the ball, and why anybody would want to throw it away by trading Portis or Betts is beyond me.

Well, that's a lie - it's not beyond me. I do understand why somebody might argue that the defence needs fixing - let's trade whatever marketable assets we have for draft picks. But it's plain wrong; this goes back to fantasy football style roster management. We have a strength here, so let's keep it. Our running game is something that we can build a team around. To jeopardise that in order to go running after the latest leak that has appeared on the team (ie the whole damn defence) would be folly.

Ok Brad, its apparent that you like to ignore the facts. Lets take this one question at a time.

1. Explain why Betts should start when he is oft injured in contrast to Portis? How do we have faith in a player who is injured THAT MUCH and NEVER STARTED till this year?

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Ok Brad, its apparent that you like to ignore the facts. Lets take this one question at a time.

1. Explain why Betts should start when he is oft injured in contrast to Portis? How do we have faith in a player who is injured THAT MUCH and NEVER STARTED till this year?

Oh, I think that's called blind faith.

I'm watching the saints game again. I didn't know that Betts fumbled in that game too.

@ those thinking we should rely soley on a RB that can't hold on to the ball..., thats 2 games in a row. He got lucky we got the ball back against the Saints, if not that could have cost us the game. Say what you may about the defense last week, Betts lost that game.

As much as I´d like to see both CP and LB carry the running next year, history has proven that the best method of running is just using one featured back.

When dividing carries you break rythym of the ball carrier, you get players saying they need more touches, your O-line has to adjust. In theory the 1-2 punch sounds great, but no so much in reality. The problem is both CP and LB are the same type of runner, they don´t compliment each other.

Betts has had a fantastic year. Too bad the stable is not that big for our two workhorses.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Ok Brad, its apparent that you like to ignore the facts. Lets take this one question at a time.

1. Explain why Betts should start when he is oft injured in contrast to Portis? How do we have faith in a player who is injured THAT MUCH and NEVER STARTED till this year?

Actually the FACT of the matter is that Portis is the one who messed up his shoulder and his wrist in one year, and has dropped over a whole yard per carry since leaving denver. Betts is the one who is averaging 4.7 ypc and actually moving the chains behind a line in which a good runningback should move the chains.

brad7686 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Ok Brad, its apparent that you like to ignore the facts. Lets take this one question at a time.

1. Explain why Betts should start when he is oft injured in contrast to Portis? How do we have faith in a player who is injured THAT MUCH and NEVER STARTED till this year?

Actually the FACT of the matter is that Portis is the one who messed up his shoulder and his wrist in one year, and has dropped over a whole yard per carry since leaving denver. Betts is the one who is averaging 4.7 ypc and actually moving the chains behind a line in which a good runningback should move the chains.

Please dont try to compare and contrast injury history between the two. Thats another battle that you dont want to lose. Portis gets injured for the 1st time in his career and you want to bench him for a guy who has been injured A LOT for a bench warmer? Im loving your logic.

Explain Betts fumbling issues....
Gibbs hates guys who turn the ball over. How many fumbles does Betts have before he gets in the dog house? He's at about 1 per game.

Lets not mention that he failed to get out of bounds to stop the clock against the saints before the half.

Betts is a good guy and a good player but he's no CP. No matter what you say.

This thread makes me laugh.

If I were the GM, the only way I would trade Portis is if I got a 1st round pick for him. Then I would use the two 1st round picks on RB Adrian Peterson and a tall receiver like Jeff Samardzija or Calvin Johnson.

I know we need defensive help, but these guys would be nice to have.