The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

chaddukes wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

chaddukes wrote:Look, this is ridiculous. I don't want to keep going down this road with you. You don't seem to understand my point. Thats fine. Just don't try to humiliate me or imply that I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't think that this stupid argument in a forum from two guys who support that same team is going to do anything positive for either of us or the team. I don't draw any personal satisfaction out of these kinds of exchanges, so right, wrong or indifferent, I'm done.

I never intended to humiliate you. We like the same team. I just wanted to understand why GW's always getting trashed on this site. I'll ask someone else. And as you say, we can agree on GO SKINS!!!!!

Just so you know I don't think that GW is a bad coach. I just think that in that game he dropped the ball!

So?

So? What does that even mean?

GW keeps getting trashed on this site because he is the defenseive cordinator and our D sucks! Because he hand picked Arch, because he thinks his system can overcome lack of talent, because he hand picked Andre Carter, bceause he has let "core guys" go.

redskins12287 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

chaddukes wrote:Just so you know I don't think that GW is a bad coach. I just think that in that game he dropped the ball!

So?

So? What does that even mean?

GW keeps getting trashed on this site because he is the defenseive cordinator and our D sucks! Because he hand picked Arch, because he thinks his system can overcome lack of talent, because he hand picked Andre Carter, bceause he has let "core guys" go.

"So" means I was not taking a poll on who supports GW and chaddukes added nothing by telling me he thinks "GW dropped the ball."

The problem is that I can think of a lot of reasons our D sucks and blaming GW is only one. I don't understand those who do that without addressing how he was successful in the past and had top ten defenses his first two years here and suddenly became incompetent. How did that happen?

I agree the D sucks and GW is not having a good year, but I'm not ready to blame him based on your message board talking points. Can you actually explain why you blame GW for our bad D and why you are not willing to allow a single bad season?

BTW, you may want to do some research on the legendary hall of fame coaches and how many of them would not have been if the standard of no bad season is forgivable were applied to them and they are to blame because of their title.



-

Hey, boys, how 'bout we focus on THIS week's game?

It looks liek you all are using up some good material that more than likely will be useful following the game against the Eagles.

Don't get spent on the Dirty Birds.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

redskins12287 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

chaddukes wrote:Just so you know I don't think that GW is a bad coach. I just think that in that game he dropped the ball!

So?

So? What does that even mean?

GW keeps getting trashed on this site because he is the defenseive cordinator and our D sucks! Because he hand picked Arch, because he thinks his system can overcome lack of talent, because he hand picked Andre Carter, bceause he has let "core guys" go.

"So" means I was not taking a poll on who supports GW and chaddukes added nothing by telling me he thinks "GW dropped the ball."

The problem is that I can think of a lot of reasons our D sucks and blaming GW is only one. I don't understand those who do that without addressing how he was successful in the past and had top ten defenses his first two years here and suddenly became incompetent. How did that happen?

I agree the D sucks and GW is not having a good year, but I'm not ready to blame him based on your message board talking points. Can you actually explain why you blame GW for our bad D and why you are not willing to allow a single bad season?

BTW, you may want to do some research on the legendary hall of fame coaches and how many of them would not have been if the standard of no bad season is forgivable were applied to them and they are to blame because of their title.



-

When will you be ready to say that the defenseive problems come back to the defensive cordinator? When we blow another lead? What, do we have to lose by 50 points?

What are these other raeasons you have for out D being so terrible?

redskins12287 wrote:When will you be ready to say that the defenseive problems come back to the defensive cordinator? When we blow another lead? What, do we have to lose by 50 points?

- GW is "responsible" I will say now. GW is to "blame" I will say when it's not an aberation (which won't be this year because of his many years of success) or someone can make a compelling case. The basic argument of the GW bashers is to fail to grasp the distinction between "blame" and "responsiblity."

redskins12287 wrote:What are these other reasons you have for out D being so terrible?

Keep in mind I'm not saying why the D sucks, I'm asking. Here are some possiblities off the top of my head. Note they are not mutually exclusive and you don't have to pick one.

- Injuries
- Insufficient time for new players to integrate into the team
- Our D talent level is lower
- Players have talent but don't have compatible capabilities
- It's key defenders that are having a bad year
- Referees are calling penalties, like holding and interference differently
- D is coming along but needs more time to hone schemes.

The only one you could think of was GW?

BTW, it's ironic that everyone's been bashing Snyder for not sticking with anyone and now that he's trying to a bunch of people want him to clean house and jump back on the coaching carousel. THe right answer is we have to s-t-o-p. We have a talented team and staff, let's give them a shot.

One other thing you might want to think of. We are interviewing GW's reaplacement. The candidate asks:

GW had two top 10 Ds and then one bad year and you fired him. Why on earth would I ever want to work for you?!?!?! Have you lost your mind?!?!?!?! Al Davis is more stable then you!!!!

And you WANT that? Please?

- Injuries
- Insufficient time for new players to integrate into the team
- Our D talent level is lower
- Players have talent but don't have compatible capabilities
- It's key defenders that are having a bad year
- Referees are calling penalties, like holding and interference differently
- D is coming along but needs more time to hone schemes.

Injuries?? Everybody has injuries at this point in the season.

Talent level on D is lower because GW and the front office decided to toy with the defense and in the past 2 seasons have let more good players go than they have brought in.

Players not having compatible capabilities falls on GW. He is the DC and he has a lot to do with personnel decisions.

Who are you referring to when you say "key defenders"?

Blaming the referees?? Pathetic.

D needs to hone in on the schemes? Or maybe other teams have figured out how to beat the schemes? How many times this season have we gone into the half either leading or in close game, and then come out in the second half and gotten beaten bc the other team made adjustments and we didn't.

SkinzCanes wrote:Injuries?? Everybody has injuries at this point in the season.

Injuries hit the Defense hard this year Springs has missed about half the season, Rogers has missed time due to injury, Prielou hasn't played a down on D, Troy Vincent didn't get here until after the bye and has missed games. That's just the secondary but Marshall and Washington have played hurt. Williams had to start 2 rookies on the D line one game.

SkinzCanes wrote:Talent level on D is lower because GW and the front office decided to toy with the defense and in the past 2 seasons have let more good players go than they have brought in.

The defense only added two new starters so I don't know if that's the issue here

SkinzCanes wrote:Players not having compatible capabilities falls on GW. He is the DC and he has a lot to do with personnel decisions.

I think GW screwed up when he tried to tweak his staff, AA has proven to be a bad move but he's been on the bench, Taylor hasn't been Taylor and Rogers forgot how to catch.

SkinzCanes wrote:D needs to hone in on the schemes? Or maybe other teams have figured out how to beat the schemes? How many times this season have we gone into the half either leading or in close game, and then come out in the second half and gotten beaten bc the other team made adjustments and we didn't.

That too falls on The DC

Im seriuosly at a loss...it seems like we don't have the talent at certain positions...i.e. Marshall is better on the weakside....we need a couple of legit cover corners...Springs is getting older and he is injured a lot. But at the same time, you don't want to constantly overhaul the roster...we also have few draft picks....and don'thave a reliable GM...what the heck can we do to improve the D.

The O will improve with time and experience together. Even with our guys healthy, they are aging.

SkinzCanes wrote:

- Injuries
- Insufficient time for new players to integrate into the team
- Our D talent level is lower
- Players have talent but don't have compatible capabilities
- It's key defenders that are having a bad year
- Referees are calling penalties, like holding and interference differently
- D is coming along but needs more time to hone schemes.

Injuries?? Everybody has injuries at this point in the season.

Talent level on D is lower because GW and the front office decided to toy with the defense and in the past 2 seasons have let more good players go than they have brought in.

Players not having compatible capabilities falls on GW. He is the DC and he has a lot to do with personnel decisions.

Who are you referring to when you say "key defenders"?

Blaming the referees?? Pathetic.

D needs to hone in on the schemes? Or maybe other teams have figured out how to beat the schemes? How many times this season have we gone into the half either leading or in close game, and then come out in the second half and gotten beaten bc the other team made adjustments and we didn't.

HELLO!!!!! KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK. HELLOOOO!!!!!!!

You forgot a key part of my point. Did you notice this little sentence.

"Keep in mind I'm not saying why the D sucks, I'm asking. Here are some possiblities off the top of my head. Note they are not mutually exclusive and you don't have to pick one."

I answered the question in your post, you were stumped as to how if the D is bad it could be anything but GW's fault. You had no idea. I said there are other possiblities.

HELLOOO!!!!!!!

Can you respond to what I said, not what I didn't please?

Also, you might take a shot at actually answering my question rather than responding to a point I didn't make.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

SkinzCanes wrote:

- Injuries
- Insufficient time for new players to integrate into the team
- Our D talent level is lower
- Players have talent but don't have compatible capabilities
- It's key defenders that are having a bad year
- Referees are calling penalties, like holding and interference differently
- D is coming along but needs more time to hone schemes.

Injuries?? Everybody has injuries at this point in the season.

Talent level on D is lower because GW and the front office decided to toy with the defense and in the past 2 seasons have let more good players go than they have brought in.

Players not having compatible capabilities falls on GW. He is the DC and he has a lot to do with personnel decisions.

Who are you referring to when you say "key defenders"?

Blaming the referees?? Pathetic.

D needs to hone in on the schemes? Or maybe other teams have figured out how to beat the schemes? How many times this season have we gone into the half either leading or in close game, and then come out in the second half and gotten beaten bc the other team made adjustments and we didn't.

HELLO!!!!! KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK. HELLOOOO!!!!!!!

You forgot a key part of my point. Did you notice this little sentence.

"Keep in mind I'm not saying why the D sucks, I'm asking. Here are some possiblities off the top of my head. Note they are not mutually exclusive and you don't have to pick one."

I answered the question in your post, you were stumped as to how if the D is bad it could be anything but GW's fault. You had no idea. I said there are other possiblities.

HELLOOO!!!!!!!

Can you respond to what I said, not what I didn't please?

Also, you might take a shot at actually answering my question rather than responding to a point I didn't make.

What are you talking about?

How about instead of you're "little sentence" that I guess voids you from taking a postion on the subject, you come up with something definitve before demanding it from everyone else.

I can't understand why you get pissed every time someone responds to the actaully content in your posts. Aside from smack, that I think, is the entire point of these message boards.

You stumped no one. My self and others have given reasons as to why we think the D's poor performance this year comes back to GW and is therfore his fault. You for somereason can't seem to see our point, and instead of understanding where we are coming from, and then try to offer soemthing else for us to consider, you prefer to tell people to wake up and then make vague statements.

redskins12287 wrote:What are you talking about?

How about instead of you're "little sentence" that I guess voids you from taking a postion on the subject, you come up with something definitve before demanding it from everyone else.

I can't understand why you get pissed every time someone responds to the actaully content in your posts. Aside from smack, that I think, is the entire point of these message boards.

You stumped no one. My self and others have given reasons as to why we think the D's poor performance this year comes back to GW and is therfore his fault. You for somereason can't seem to see our point, and instead of understanding where we are coming from, and then try to offer soemthing else for us to consider, you prefer to tell people to wake up and then make vague statements.

I can't ask why you blame GW unless I have the answer? OK, sure. You made the point of being anti-GW. My questions, I"m not seeing the answer in your posts were:

- How did GW suddenly become incompetent? He had 2 top 10 Ds and is certainly down this year, but why does that mean it's his fault? A Defense is a collection of coaches and players. How is he to blame now when before this year he was successful?

- Who is going to take the job when we're already being bashed for being a coaching carousel and you want it to spin faster? Who would work for us when two top 10 Ds are followed by a bad year and we're going to can them?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

redskins12287 wrote:What are you talking about?

How about instead of you're "little sentence" that I guess voids you from taking a postion on the subject, you come up with something definitve before demanding it from everyone else.

I can't understand why you get pissed every time someone responds to the actaully content in your posts. Aside from smack, that I think, is the entire point of these message boards.

You stumped no one. My self and others have given reasons as to why we think the D's poor performance this year comes back to GW and is therfore his fault. You for somereason can't seem to see our point, and instead of understanding where we are coming from, and then try to offer soemthing else for us to consider, you prefer to tell people to wake up and then make vague statements.

I can't ask why you blame GW unless I have the answer? OK, sure. You made the point of being anti-GW. My questions, I"m not seeing the answer in your posts were:

- How did GW suddenly become incompetent? He had 2 top 10 Ds and is certainly down this year, but why does that mean it's his fault? A Defense is a collection of coaches and players. How is he to blame now when before this year he was successful?

- Who is going to take the job when we're already being bashed for being a coaching carousel and you want it to spin faster? Who would work for us when two top 10 Ds are followed by a bad year and we're going to can them?

Just because something worked in the past, it does not mean it will always work and does not warrant for it to go un-questioned when it stops working because of previous success. And if they played a few bad games it would be OK, but this D has been one of the worst in the leauge all season. It is his fault because it is his defense. He runs it. Yes, it is a collection of different players and coaches, players that GW chooses, players GW coaches.

Lets take a quick look at his record:
-The 04-05 D finishes 3rd, then we let go Pierce and Smoot, draft carlos rogers
-The 05-06 D finishes 9th, then we let go Clark, pick up Adam Archuleta and Andre Carter
-The 06-07 D is currently what, 28th at best?

I see a pattern, don't you? We drop players, GW hand selects their replacements, and we get worse. GW's fault.

I am not saying the the 'skins should fire GW. I don't know why you keep suggesting I am.

The 06-07 D is currently what, 28th at best?

27th

Reversing the order:

redskins12287 wrote:I am not saying the the 'skins should fire GW. I don't know why you keep suggesting I am.

You joined a conversation on a side which can make it hard to distinguish between what you are and are not supporting. So fair enough, you are not advocating firing GW.

redskins12287 wrote:Just because something worked in the past, it does not mean it will always work and does not warrant for it to go un-questioned when it stops working because of previous success. And if they played a few bad games it would be OK, but this D has been one of the worst in the leauge all season. It is his fault because it is his defense. He runs it. Yes, it is a collection of different players and coaches, players that GW chooses, players GW coaches.

Lets take a quick look at his record:
-The 04-05 D finishes 3rd, then we let go Pierce and Smoot, draft carlos rogers
-The 05-06 D finishes 9th, then we let go Clark, pick up Adam Archuleta and Andre Carter
-The 06-07 D is currently what, 28th at best?

I see a pattern, don't you? We drop players, GW hand selects their replacements, and we get worse. GW's fault.

Yes, there is a pattern. And Patterns are to be examined, no question. On the other hand you chose the last 3 years and his defensive success goes back more than 3 years. Three years isn't a lot of data points. If you track the stock market 3 years in a row and conclude it's going the same direction the 4th you could lose a lot of money.

We also did some good things personnel wise those years, like dumping "Bonus Baby" Arrington. He also has had clear player evaluation successes too. Would we have missed Ryan or Pierce had he not given them the opportunities? Smoot was benched in Minnesota. Don't players have responsiblity for their own play?

And you discounted injuries, but we have been decimated in the secondary and unfortunately the most clear player pickup mistake was there, AA. I'm not arguing GW's perfect, I just don't blindly accept he's to "blame" for our D woes this year. Rogers has struggled in his sophomore year and Taylor's had pass protection issues. If they were playing well, we could blitz more. Do we dare with a depleted, struggling secondary?

And just to be clear, I want to repeat we agree GW's "responsible." He's the D coordinator. It's his job to lead fixing the problems and if they are as bad next year as this year I'll be a lot more negative on him. The question now is "blame." Blame and responsibility are completely different things. When you say he "dropped the ball" it's blame. That's what I'm questioning.

So can you clarify what exactly your position on GW is then? What should we do regarding GW?

I think we should keep him, but I think he needs to understand that his system, not matter how good it is, can not turn players lacking talent into solid players. I also think he has to be willing to make adjustments when his plan is not working. This one is arguable, but after the Atlanta game, it makes sense to me. And I think he and the entire organization need to do a better job at evaluating talent, weather it be in draft prospects or free agents.

redskins12287 wrote:I think we should keep him, but I think he needs to understand that his system, not matter how good it is, can not turn players lacking talent into solid players. I also think he has to be willing to make adjustments when his plan is not working. This one is arguable, but after the Atlanta game, it makes sense to me. And I think he and the entire organization need to do a better job at evaluating talent, weather it be in draft prospects or free agents.

I have to expand my questions. Maybe then I can understand what's intutitive to you.

1) If GW thinks it's just his system and not his players, why did he have us spend so much money on AC and AA?

2) Why do players deserve credit "his system can't turn players lacking talent into solid players" but only he gets blame "the defenseive problems come back to the defensive cordinator?"

3) AA, AC obviously showed a lot of talent on film, do they deserve any of the credit for their less than stellar performances as Redskins or just GW deserves the blame for evaluation? Does Rogers deserve any of the blame for his poor Sophmore performance? Does Taylor deserve blame for his being burned repeatedly by the same passing plays game after game? Should our weak side linebackers have just played better? What about the rest of the D coaching staff?

4) If evaluating talent were easy or non-risk, why do other teams have so much trouble too? Why are there ever busts?

5) Also, what didn't we do for Atlanta? He was w/o half his secondary, should he have blitzed? That was the only specific I've heard so far . It was before you were in the conversation, so what did he not do for Atlanta?

BTW, I'm in favor of hiring a GM, though I don't think it would be the panacea many of the posters seem to think it would be.

1) I don't know what we gave AA so much money, no one else wanted him, kind of like when we gave brunell so much money, it's just what the 'skins so I guess.

2) I, and alot of people gave GW most of the credit when our D was doing so well, especially his first season here when the year before our D was horrible.

3) That talent seen on film must have been some old film, because netiher one of them have done much in the past like 2 years. Yes Rogers deserves the blame for his crappy season, but then again, shouldn't some of that fall on the man that drafted him and coaches him everyday? Same with Taylor. As far as linebakers, Williams let Pierce go, and apparantlet drafted a bust in McIntosh. The rest of the D coaching staff, those are GW's guys.

4) We just seem to do a very poor job of evaluating talent and it seems like more often than not we make the wrong choice.

5)I thought Springs was the only one out? Yes, we should have blitzed, at least, more often than we did. As some one explained earlier, that is how 4 teams before us stoped Vick and beat Atlanta. If you don't put pressure on Vick, then you get what we saw on Sunday. It may not have made sense when we were up, but when they are moving the ball on every drive, you have to try something different.

Best I can tell other than the injuries to the defense the worst thing that happened to the defense this year is we let DeWayne Walker leave for UCLA.
That explains the Jackson/Gray issue, Taylor and and Rogers both having off years, and the corners not knowing what the safetys are doing. There were more changes to the D staff than players on the field.
BTW: Carters play has picked up over the last month, and AA has only allowed 1 blocked punt (although Mike took the blame for it)

KazooSkinsFan wrote:If GW thinks it's just his system and not his players, why did he have us spend so much money on AC and AA?

redskins12287 wrote:I don't know what we gave AA so much money, no one else wanted him, kind of like when we gave brunell so much money, it's just what the 'skins so I guess.

May be true, but misses the point of my question.

First Brunell's O and we're talking GW. You didn't mention AC. And you can't be serious that you think they signed AA for $30 mil because that's what they do. They may or may not evaluate talent well, but they're not stupid and that would just be stupid. BTW, most players are not in fact signed for anywhere near $30 mil undercutting the theory.

No, GW WANTED those two. But if he thought it was just his schemes, why did he feel he needed particular players? Why not sign cheap players and let Gibbs spend the bulk on O? This question goes to the heart of your point, he thinks it's his schemes not the players.

And by the way, how do you know he "thinks" it's his schemes not the players anyway.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:Why do players deserve credit "his system can't turn players lacking talent into solid players" but only he gets blame "the defenseive problems come back to the defensive coordinator?"

redskins12287 wrote:I, and alot of people gave GW most of the credit when our D was doing so well, especially his first season here when the year before our D was horrible.

OK, sort of answers my question. Though I think you are having a hard time distinguising between blame and responsiblity still.

But if GW's doing the things you say, why did he turn around the D? You say he thinks it's his schemes not the players. You concede the D was bad before he got it. How did he turn it around in the first place if your accusations over this year are true?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:AA, AC obviously showed a lot of talent on film, do they deserve any of the credit for their less than stellar performances as Redskins or just GW deserves the blame for evaluation? Does Rogers deserve any of the blame for his poor Sophmore performance? Does Taylor deserve blame for his being burned repeatedly by the same passing plays game after game? Should our weak side linebackers have just played better? What about the rest of the D coaching staff?

redskins12287 wrote:That talent seen on film must have been some old film, because netiher one of them have done much in the past like 2 years. Yes Rogers deserves the blame for his crappy season, but then again, shouldn't some of that fall on the man that drafted him and coaches him everyday? Same with Taylor. As far as linebakers, Williams let Pierce go, and apparantlet drafted a bust in McIntosh. The rest of the D coaching staff, those are GW's guys.

To me again it goes back to responsiblity versus blame. You're conceding others have come short. The difference:

- Responsiblity: He owns the problem and needs to own solving it.
- Blame: It's his fault.

I say he's responsible. Based on his past success and other issues I am willing to let this year go without blame. But that isn't a pass becuase I'm expecting the situation to be better next year and if it isn't I'll start looking at him.

You keep saying he's to blame. I just don't get that based on his past success and even you admit the players have come up short. And you say for the staff they're his too.

You don't manage anyone, do you? I don't mean it as a slam, I'm just saying there's not perfect way to manage and if you are personally blamed by your superiors for every problem in your organization you'd just stop managing because it would be impossible.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:If evaluating talent were easy or non-risk, why do other teams have so much trouble too? Why are there ever busts?

redskins12287 wrote:We just seem to do a very poor job of evaluating talent and it seems like more often than not we make the wrong choice.

I think you're being kinda tough in that you're focusing on the failures and ignoring the successes and not acknowledging that evaluation is an art not a science, no one doesn't make a lot of mistakes.

But, I can't disagree that we could do better and like you I want to hire a GM to separate the jobs. Not in hindsight, but the two huge mistakes to me are AA and Ducket. AA becuase Taylor is already weak on the pass, why hiring another safety with the same fault? And Duckett who was signed as insurance for Portis, and even though Portis was out most of the year we still don't play him. Those should have been a GM saying "N-O."

KazooSkinsFan wrote:Also, what didn't we do for Atlanta? He was w/o half his secondary, should he have blitzed? That was the only specific I've heard so far . It was before you were in the conversation, so what did he not do for Atlanta?

redskins12287 wrote:I thought Springs was the only one out? Yes, we should have blitzed, at least, more often than we did. As some one explained earlier, that is how 4 teams before us stoped Vick and beat Atlanta. If you don't put pressure on Vick, then you get what we saw on Sunday. It may not have made sense when we were up, but when they are moving the ball on every drive, you have to try something different.

We were also missing Vincent. So keep in mind what you are saying is:

We were missing our top Corner and our better pass protection safety. We were left with Sophmore struggling Rogers in the secondary and Taylor who's soft on pass and subs.

And GW screwed up by not blitzing more because that's how other teams beat Vick? I am going to have to disagree with you. We were burned in previous games by blitzing with our weak secondary and Vick is no passing slouch.

And remember Atlanta has film to, don't you think they were aware of our depleted and struggling secondary? And don't you think GW knew they knew that?

To put more guys blitzing to me would have been insane. Instead of failing to stop them they would have just torched us for TDs. We were already in trouble just because of the secondary staff available. Again, responsibility verus blame?

I'm not saying that on every individual play when some one screws up, I point to GW and say, all your're fault! I am saying that the over all poor play of the defense this entire season is his fault.

It just turns my mnd inside out. Last year, Williams is a genius. Year before, the same. Now he's a dunce. Did he fall on his head or something?

redskins12287 wrote:I'm not saying that on every individual play when some one screws up, I point to GW and say, all your're fault! I am saying that the over all poor play of the defense this entire season is his fault.

Let's talk again when you're older and more experienced. We may disagree on this, but we'll both be rooting for the skins more many, many years.