The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Yeah, I was around in 2004, matter of fact I was around for the Kilmer/Jurgenson debate. I hope Jason Campbell is the next star in the league. Maybe a mix of Manning-McNabb-Brady, now that would be nice wouldn't it, but we haven't seen him take but a handful of pre-season snaps, how can we determine he is the answer from that. We have to trust our coaches. When they make the change, and they will, I'll support the move. And for the record, I was begging for Ramsey in '04, but you'll have to admit Brunell played some pretty decent football in '05. Now we are back to searching for an identity, it is more than the quarterback. How about that 31st ranked defense?

Irn-Bru wrote:
Thinking about the future is fine if the season is over, but I haven't given up hope, and I don't think that Gibbs and co. have, either.

I think that you can make a change and still have hope. The one thing for certain is that we don't know what JC can or cannot do if given the chance. We just don't know so the only thing that we have is either hope or gloom.

Hey, as much as I hate the Cowpukes, it was a gutsy move that Parcells made that worked out going to Romo. If you watched that game you could see the immediate impact Romo had not from a throwing stand point but from his ability to get out of the pocket. Whereas Bledsoe has cement feet and limits that offense that doesn't have a very good O-line. Romo's ability to move gives him another second or two to either throw or run. Obviously, he is smart and the Cowpukes called a game that kept it effective but safe. With the $2million dollar OC we have and the fact that JC can move, we can't do that????

Most of us here want Campbell and I think we will see him play soon. The only thing that bugs me a little is that IMO if our defense was playing better or at the very least playing to the level we were at last year we would not be having this much concern about our QB. There would still be some who will never be satisfied with Gibbs or whoever he has as our QB

Brunell looks like he will be our starter for a little while longer and he will get my support but I'm excited about seeing Campbell play.

I just know that we are not going to start winning games until our defense picks it up a lot and that has nothing to do with who our QB is.

SkinsJock wrote:Most of us here want Campbell and I think we will see him play soon. The only thing that bugs me a little is that IMO if our defense was playing better or at the very least playing to the level we were at last year we would not be having this much concern about our QB. There would still be some who will never be satisfied with Gibbs or whoever he has as our QB

Brunell looks like he will be our starter for a little while longer and he will get my support but I'm excited about seeing Campbell play.

I just know that we are not going to start winning games until our defense picks it up a lot and that has nothing to do with who our QB is.

I hear ya.... But the other thing that is interesting is that they are so secretive at Redskins Park it's borderline NSA, CIA, FBI..... No one has said anything about how JC looked last week with the first team. I think that the people that pay these guy's salaries, the fans, have a right to know if JC can or cannot play. Either way, you are going to hear a rumble from the fans. If he's a bust, then you mortgaged our future for the next 3-5 years for a kid who can't play; or he is ready but Gibbs' crazy connection to Brunell has him to blind or too stubborn to put this kid in which means you've possibly throw away 2-3 games by sticking with the broken #8 car....

roybus14 wrote:But the other thing that is interesting is that they are so secretive at Redskins Park it's borderline NSA, CIA, FBI..... No one has said anything about how JC looked last week with the first team. I think that the people that pay these guy's salaries, the fans, have a right to know if JC can or cannot play.

Secretive, refusal to say 'anything', people's right to know. . .what is this, the American government? You're arguing from an absurd view of what it means to be a Redskins fan, and you're drawing all of your analytical conclusions from silence.

roybus14 wrote:Either way, you are going to hear a rumble from the fans. If he's a bust, then you mortgaged our future for the next 3-5 years for a kid who can't play; or he is ready but Gibbs' crazy connection to Brunell has him to blind or too stubborn to put this kid in which means you've possibly throw away 2-3 games by sticking with the broken #8 car....

I'll re-post an argument that you haven't addressed but that I think answers this kind of post (which we've seen plenty of in the past few weeks on the board):

It seems like if we are to believe that Campbell is the better option for winning next week, we need to believe two things:

(1) The coaches are probably wrong about Campbell.
(2) The odds of Campbell being an inexperienced stud (i.e. another Tom Brady) are pretty good.

If either one of those premises are false, then starting Campbell cannot be the best option for QB against Dallas. (And, I would reject both of those premises, but that's just me).

If one argues instead that we should find out about Campbell one way or another soon--since he's the future anyway--we've now left the realm of talking about how we're going to win next week and next week only. (That is, unless you accept (1) and (2) above.)


Normally I don't advocate copying and pasting the same thing but I wonder why it is that you won't take on this argument itself. The best I can seem to get is "I see what you're saying but *restatement of what I'm trying to debate against with my post*"

I want Campbell to play because I think this season is on life support, and unfortunately that gives us the luxury of sitting through a young QB's learning curve much like the Giants did when they yanked Warner in favor of Manning...

That being said, the coaches don't have that luxury. They have to look at this as a must win game. And if you look at your 3 QBs and say, "which one of these guys do I know for a fact has the ability to fight hard and play smart and get the things done we need to win this one huge huge game?" The only possible answer is Brunell... doesn't mean he'll get it done, just means he's the safest bet with what you have to work with... so I think Brunell will start until the coaches agree the season is a wash... which may not be long...

If we lose to Dallas and Campbell doesn't start...I will wonder what the heck the problem is with Gibbs. Hard to say which QB gives us the best chance, having not seen them play yet, but I do think the team would rally around Campbell and play better to help him out...and that spark could help the team tremendously.

Brunell is a prototypical backup...he plays better on rest, and will not too many mistakes when he has to come in.

WAKE UP WASHINGTON

Mursilis wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:The fact is that while we may feel the season is over, it really isn't. Joe is played to play to win until it really is over. You don't tell the owner and the fans after 7 games you're throwing in the towel.

Why do you insist on suggesting starting JC = throwing in the towel?
I, and others here, strongly believe playing Campbell now is the best way of salvaging THIS season, AS WELL AS playing for the future. True, no one knows what JC can do on the field in a real live game, but we do know what Brunell can do, and it's nothing special. To me, sticking with Brunell IS throwing in the towel.

Edit: Check out the poll results - JC wins by a huge margin.

You are a fan, I'll give you that. I want JC to start, as I said I think long term Skins success, I'm not anti-Cambell at all.

However, there are very, very few first year starters who do well. To me that is WHY I want him to play now. I think our odds are better long term playing younger players, particularly our 2nd year QB and I hope to God Brunell does not start for us after this year.

However, from Gibbs perspective, if he is not playing the QB who he believes gives us the best chance to win against Dallas, he is throwing in the towel on the season. And Gibbs believes that is Brunell.

If you really in your heart believe JC gives us the best chance to win this one game on Sunday, I admire your passion for the Skins, but question your judgement.

Irn-Bru wrote: Secretive, refusal to say 'anything', people's right to know. . .what is this, the American government? You're arguing from an absurd view of what it means to be a Redskins fan, and you're drawing all of your analytical conclusions from silence.

Absurd, IMO, no. My opinion, yes. What is the "real and factual" definition of what a Redskins Fan is??? Is it in Webster's? Probably not so I just like any other fan has the right to an opinion just like you have the right to call it absurd. Come on, it's no secret that they are closed mouth at Redskins Park, whether silent or not. And it's not the U.S. Govt. I just made a comparision of how secretive "I" think that they are at Redskins Park. Once again, my opinion. Oh and the last time I checked, I do reserve the right to my "analytical conclusions"....

Alot of people on this board are die-hard fans but there are some folks on this board that call their loyality into question because they are expressing themselves and what to know what is wrong with their beloved team. It doesn't make anyone any less of a fan if they question what is going on with their team. Any fan, of a team in this league that is not winning, has the absolutely right to question everything that their team is doing. Especially those that are forking over good money to be at every single home game.

So what is this board for if fans can't express themselves, absurd or not????

roybus14 wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote: Secretive, refusal to say 'anything', people's right to know. . .what is this, the American government? You're arguing from an absurd view of what it means to be a Redskins fan, and you're drawing all of your analytical conclusions from silence.

Absurd, IMO, no. My opinion, yes. What is the "real and factual" definition of what a Redskins Fan is??? Is it in Webster's? Probably not so I just like any other fan has the right to an opinion just like you have the right to call it absurd. Come on, it's no secret that they are closed mouth at Redskins Park, whether silent or not. And it's not the U.S. Govt. I just made a comparision of how secretive "I" think that they are at Redskins Park. Once again, my opinion. Oh and the last time I checked, I do reserve the right to my "analytical conclusions"....

Alot of people on this board are die-hard fans but there are some folks on this board that call their loyality into question because they are expressing themselves and what to know what is wrong with their beloved team. It doesn't make anyone any less of a fan if they question what is going on with their team. Any fan, of a team in this league that is not winning, has the absolutely right to question everything that their team is doing. Especially those that are forking over good money to be at every single home game.

So what is this board for if fans can't express themselves, absurd or not????

I think that you're misreading my post. When I say that you have an absurd view of what it means to be a Redskins fan, I'm refering to the notion that somehow we have rights as fans and deserve to be able to make demands on coaches for information. You can have the opinion that you should know these things, but to act as if the organization is withholding information that people should know by right takes it to a new level (i.e. the level of obligating the Skins to do something based on your opinion).

You are also free to draw your conclusions of Jason Campbell based on silence. When I said that you were doing so, I was refering to the fallacy known as "arguing from silence". In other words, you can't (not to be confused with "you don't have the right to") make a positive assessment about Campbell--that he must stink, for example--based on the coaches' silence on the issue.

Please don't read my posts as denouncing your fan citizenship or denying your 'rights' as a fan somehow. . .I'm just trying to get this discussion beyond fallacious reasoning and absurd analagies.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:If you really in your heart believe JC gives us the best chance to win this one game on Sunday, I admire your passion for the Skins, but question your judgement.

Before you say that, you should know that what I've really been advocating since the offseason (there's a large thread in the 'training camp' forum that bears this out) is that Gibbs should've named Campbell the starter shortly after last season ended, or at least made it an open competition at camp, instead of giving Brunell a lock on the spot. With a full off-season to prepare, JC could've been ready (or at least as ready as Brunell is). Starting JC since the opener couldn't have turned out much worse than where we are now, at 2-5 and heading into 'rebuilding' mode yet again, but at least we'd have the upside of JC getting some actual gametime experience. As it is, sticking with Mark "our best chance to win now" Brunell sure hasn't produced much winning, AND hasn't resulted in any experience gained on the field or in the Saunders system for JC. It's been lose/lose.

Irn-Bru wrote:

roybus14 wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote: Secretive, refusal to say 'anything', people's right to know. . .what is this, the American government? You're arguing from an absurd view of what it means to be a Redskins fan, and you're drawing all of your analytical conclusions from silence.

Absurd, IMO, no. My opinion, yes. What is the "real and factual" definition of what a Redskins Fan is??? Is it in Webster's? Probably not so I just like any other fan has the right to an opinion just like you have the right to call it absurd. Come on, it's no secret that they are closed mouth at Redskins Park, whether silent or not. And it's not the U.S. Govt. I just made a comparision of how secretive "I" think that they are at Redskins Park. Once again, my opinion. Oh and the last time I checked, I do reserve the right to my "analytical conclusions"....

Alot of people on this board are die-hard fans but there are some folks on this board that call their loyality into question because they are expressing themselves and what to know what is wrong with their beloved team. It doesn't make anyone any less of a fan if they question what is going on with their team. Any fan, of a team in this league that is not winning, has the absolutely right to question everything that their team is doing. Especially those that are forking over good money to be at every single home game.

So what is this board for if fans can't express themselves, absurd or not????

I think that you're misreading my post. When I say that you have an absurd view of what it means to be a Redskins fan, I'm refering to the notion that somehow we have rights as fans and deserve to be able to make demands on coaches for information. You can have the opinion that you should know these things, but to act as if the organization is withholding information that people should know by right takes it to a new level (i.e. the level of obligating the Skins to do something based on your opinion).

You are also free to draw your conclusions of Jason Campbell based on silence. When I said that you were doing so, I was refering to the fallacy known as "arguing from silence". In other words, you can't (not to be confused with "you don't have the right to") make a positive assessment about Campbell--that he must stink, for example--based on the coaches' silence on the issue.

Please don't read my posts as denouncing your fan citizenship or denying your 'rights' as a fan somehow. . .I'm just trying to get this discussion beyond fallacious reasoning and absurd analagies.

Okay. But is it too much to ask or wonder how JC did or performed with the first team last week? Right now, everybody is searching for answers from the coaches to the players on down to the fans. So I am sure that you won't see the last of "fallacious reasoning and absurd analogies" on this board as long as this team continues to struggle.

If you really want to attempt to put this all into perspective: everything you have posted, I have posted, and everyone else has posted is basically what fans do. You are going to have "fallacious and absurd" analogies; dead on points; dead-off points; posts that are utterly ridiculous and just plain stupid. It's all a part of being fans. There are alot of good and alot of bad but the passion is or is close to being the same. It's what makes the world go around and I think that it is very healthy. Six out of ten people may read our posts on this and say Roybus is nutz; two out of that ten may say you are nutz; and the other two of of that ten may say you both sound stupid, shut up!!

But it's all good!!!!!!

Well, I certainly agree with you there, roybus.

IMHO it's a little stupid to play the guys who you think give you the best chance to win the upcoming game, or the next game, at the expense of the next several seasons of football. The biggest joke is that Brunell's successor isn't even preparing as the 2nd QB, so he's going to be expected to jump from running the practice squad to starting.

Mursilis wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:If you really in your heart believe JC gives us the best chance to win this one game on Sunday, I admire your passion for the Skins, but question your judgement.

Before you say that, you should know that what I've really been advocating since the offseason (there's a large thread in the 'training camp' forum that bears this out) is that Gibbs should've named Campbell the starter shortly after last season ended, or at least made it an open competition at camp, instead of giving Brunell a lock on the spot. With a full off-season to prepare, JC could've been ready (or at least as ready as Brunell is). Starting JC since the opener couldn't have turned out much worse than where we are now, at 2-5 and heading into 'rebuilding' mode yet again, but at least we'd have the upside of JC getting some actual gametime experience. As it is, sticking with Mark "our best chance to win now" Brunell sure hasn't produced much winning, AND hasn't resulted in any experience gained on the field or in the Saunders system for JC. It's been lose/lose.

I swear I remember Gibbs saying in a press conference at the end of last year, that he had a meeting with Campbell and told him "get ready, time to change hats..." or something like that. I know that this comment came before the addition of Saunders however.

At 2-5, with Mark's current injuries (ribs, elbow and toe) and at Mark's age, Gibbs really thinks he can "save the season" with Brunell? Brunell really gives the team the best chance to win in the second half of the season? Has Mark found the Fountain of Youth?

Has anyone ever heard Saunders offer praise for Brunell. I live outside of the viewing area and have not heard or read anything. Has anyone ever heard any praise about Mark from anyone other than Gibbs???

In an effort for ALL to understand, I'm a little confused as to why the media hasn't been drilling Gibbs about his QB choice. It always seems that they are reluctant to ask. And when they do, you can easily read the body language of Gibbs, like he's the Tuna being questioned about T.O. Or has Gibbs said to the media before the camera's start rolling... "I refuse to explain or elaborate why Brunell gives us the best chance to win and why Jason doesn't." We can speculate that one all day, but I'd rather hear it from Gibbs.

And just because a player looks good in practice, obviously doesn't mean that they will be good in live games. Brunell must look really, really good in practice; all 'game' evidence to the contrary.

Before the Titans game, Gregg Williams was questioned about the secondary and the big plays the D was giving up. He replied saying the secondary had made numerous interceptions and batted down many balls that day in practice. My question is, who was throwing all those interceptions??? I believe that Brunell was taking all the snaps with the 1st team at that point.

This news just in - an error has been found on Mark Brunell's birth certificate. His true age is 26, and he will be playing NFL football for another 10 years.

Now, don't shoot the messenger - I'm just passing the news on.

However, there are very, very few first year starters who do well.

That's not really all that accurate. There have been plenty of first time starters that have done well the past few seasons.....Big Ben, Carson Palmer, Philip Rivers, Gradkowski, Leinart, Vince Young, Grossman (doing well in his first healthy season). Go back a few more seasons....Bulger and Brady were succesful in their first seasons.

Mursilis wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:If you really in your heart believe JC gives us the best chance to win this one game on Sunday, I admire your passion for the Skins, but question your judgement.

Before you say that, you should know that what I've really been advocating since the offseason (there's a large thread in the 'training camp' forum that bears this out) is that Gibbs should've named Campbell the starter shortly after last season ended, or at least made it an open competition at camp, instead of giving Brunell a lock on the spot. With a full off-season to prepare, JC could've been ready (or at least as ready as Brunell is). Starting JC since the opener couldn't have turned out much worse than where we are now, at 2-5 and heading into 'rebuilding' mode yet again, but at least we'd have the upside of JC getting some actual gametime experience. As it is, sticking with Mark "our best chance to win now" Brunell sure hasn't produced much winning, AND hasn't resulted in any experience gained on the field or in the Saunders system for JC. It's been lose/lose.

We agree on the main point that we want to see Cambell and that would be in the Skins long term interest.

You have higher belief in the quality QB Cambell would be this year then me. Maybe he makes more plays but he probably makes more stupid mistakes too. But it's a judgement call. Before the season probably more then now since we know Brunell is back to the one who sucked two years ago rather than was decent last year.

I'm just saying though the NFL is a really tough, competitive environment. Snyder didn't hire a 100 million team to play for next year and not all fans look at it like we do. From Gibbs perspective, his job to his owner and fan base is to win now. If he makes choices when the season is not over (even if we feel it is) that he does not believe give him the best chance to win, he is telling the owner and fans that it's over and he's not ready to do that and I don't blame him. Even though I still wish he would.

Going with Brunell is throwing in the towel? A couple examples going into this season Brunell is has 15 wins and 15 losses (includes 1-1 in the playoffs) as the Redskins starting QB and this season his record drops to 17 - 20. P. Ramsey (now the Jets 3rd string QB) was 4 - 4 as a the Skins Staring QB in 04 & 05. So basically we can expect Brunell to go no better than 4-5 from here on out giving the Skins a 6 - 10 record. But lets say he plays as good as his best 9 game run with this team he would win 6 and lose 3 (and that was with a dominate defense whcih we saddly don't have anymore) so the most optimistic out look is 8 - 8. Whoopy! That is provided #8 can duplicate his best 9 games again - any takers on those odds!

So the simple fact is with #8 the best this team can hope for is 8-8. I wonder what #17 or #15 could give us?

SkinzCanes wrote:

However, there are very, very few first year starters who do well.

That's not really all that accurate. There have been plenty of first time starters that have done well the past few seasons.....Big Ben, Carson Palmer, Philip Rivers, Gradkowski, Leinart, Vince Young, Grossman (doing well in his first healthy season). Go back a few more seasons....Bulger and Brady were succesful in their first seasons.

This point has been made before, and I agree completely. But regardless of how well JC would/would not have done, how has it benefited us to have started Brunell? He now has as many wins as a starter this season as Vince Young, rookie QB on a bad team. Where's the upside to having gone with Brunell over Campbell?

Hooligan wrote:IMHO it's a little stupid to play the guys who you think give you the best chance to win the upcoming game, or the next game, at the expense of the next several seasons of football. The biggest joke is that Brunell's successor isn't even preparing as the 2nd QB, so he's going to be expected to jump from running the practice squad to starting.

OK ... since everyone in the discussion agrees with this I'm not sure I'm sure who your humble opinion thinks are being stupid.

To catch up, we agree we want Gibbs to play Campbell and that's in our long term interest to do so.

We were debating if you focus on this year if Campbell or Brunell would do better. Any views on the discussion?

Maybe Boonell has something over Gibbs, his undying loyalty is sickening. If Portis doesn't practice he doesn't play but the cut on the Elbow BOO sustained, he played and now with a rib injury he is scheduled to start! I mean he can't throw with good ribs, how the hell can he throw with an injury? I am seriously losing all respect for Gibbs. By the way we can bombard him with email and I will be getting his email soon....More to come!!

Campbell hands down I say this because he has what BOO doesn't! physical accumen. Young legs, a cannon for an arm. BOO has problems with this offense and Campbell needs to get in, ASAP, too bad someone can't put some rat poisoning in BOO's water bottle, not enough to kill him but enough to ensure he isn't playing on Sunday!!