Is this taking it too far in the name of "amnesty"

[Redskin in Canada]

Thinking that it was done for humanitarian reasons only shows two things: You've never lived in Europe and are totally naive.

The first argument was not made and you do not have the slightest idea about the second.

[1niksder]

RIC this is OUR issue. The issue at hand is not how the world handles immigration. I did think that you were an educated person who was capable of intelligent conversation but the more this goes on the more you show that you feel the need to be right and to belittle people because they do not have the education you do or perhaps the world experience you do.

I'm finally disagreeing with you NikiH. But not on this point

We get it, you're an international traveler, you're a better educated person. That does NOT give you the right to step into a matter that does not concern you and call all of those of us that believe illegal immigrants should carry their weight wrong.

I don't know RiC so I don't know if he is educated or not, based on previous interaction with him, I'd say so. Based on this thread I'd have to wonder. 5 page thread and he still doesn't get it's not about imagration but that it's about illegal aliens and that the two don't go hand in hand.

I live here. I see people everyday that try to get around the system. These illegal aliens do NOT want to pay taxes, they want to keep things exactly the way they are. They want to get by without being noticed. I will give you several examples of this behavior if you would like. I DEAL WITH THESE PEOPLE FACE TO FACE ON A DAILY BASIS! If you'd like to pass judgement on me for disagreeing with your educated opinion you go right ahead. I have work to do, a child to raise, and an education to acquire. Meanwhile saying you don't have the right to look down your nose at those of us who do not bow to your superior intellect does not mean you are not allowed an opinion it does however mean that you do not have the right to pass judgement on our society, that you are not part of. We want the 33% of our paychecks that go to taxes to be used to better our own, not illegal aliens that could give a crap about us, obviously.

NikiH again you are talking about illegals and RiC only see them as illegal because he feels our laws are outdated and obsolete. A educated man would understand that those that are illegal can't and won't be the ones to make the first move in getting the laws changed unless the show they can follow them first. I think the problem is Ric travels and is always labled a expatriate. RiC seems to have a educated opinion on imagration but doesn't have a clue on illegal aliens and the impact they are currently having on this nation.

Calling out TRO shows his ignorance on the true subject, as there were rallys around the country today held by imagarnts (both citizen and non-citizen) in protest of the rally that the illegals held

[Redskin in Canada]

With respect to foreign policy, I have much greater respect for Switzerland than I do any other European country.

Do you mean to say that the best foreign policy (for countries others than yours, of course) is only one of impartiality and non-intervention?

The EU statement was a qualified one as a standard for comparison purposes. I stand by it. The relations among EU countries is better than the relations among countries in North America.

I am glad we share the Redskins in this board. There would be a lot less some of you and I would have in common otherwise. I will stay away from political threads in the future.

[NikiH]

You'd do fine in all threads if you left the elitest attitude at home.

Your theory on how things should work is just that a theory so don't act like you're better then everyone else because of it.

[1niksder]

I am glad we share the Redskins in this board. There would be a lot less some of you and I would have in common otherwise. I will stay away from political threads in the future.

You have a opinion and are able to express it, You post in political threads as often as I do You seemed to be a little off base on this one IMO so I chimed in. At least we proved we could be civil. Politics and message boards who would have figured the wouldn't go together.

[Redskin in Canada]

You'd do fine in all threads if you left the elitest attitude at home.

You see? THAT is -my- problem. I am typing from home.

Do not be angry at me Niki. We can still enjoy the Redskins. Same to all others in this thread.

[Irn-Bru]

Do you mean to say that the best foreign policy (for countries others than yours, of course) is only one of impartiality and non-intervention?

Can't tell if you're laughing at the concept or at how obvious it was that I was going to say that. Either way, I can't do much but shrug my shoulders and say, 'what else could you expect from me at this point?'

I will stay away from political threads in the future.

I tell myself that from time to time, but then always find myself right back in it far too soon.

[BossHog]

Think about it... you're all arguing about immigrants rights in a melting pot society... ridiculous... you might as well all be having sex to protest your right to be a virgin.

I'm not getting involved in the scemantics of this but some of you telling people to take a 'broader look' should really maybe step back a little yourselves...

RiC isn't fit to post his opinion because he lives in Canada? The guy knows more about foreign policy than 99% of this board COMBINED... it's his JOB. I'm not defending his position, I'm just saying that some of you talking about 'elitist attitudes' and the like should have a quick look around and check the score. You all seem to forget that NOT being an American often means being the ones that look at it from a non-slanted American view. That might not 'work' for some of you, but it doesn't make it wrong either... especially to the REST OF THE WORLD. No offense, but most of you aren't even qualified to speak about foreign policy issues, let alone argue them... you can't even look at anything from OUTSIDE the American box. If you want to act like you care about 'foreign policy' then you're going to have to listen to what 'foreigners' have to say at some point, aren't you? Apparently not in American foreign policy. Isn't it then just domestic policy that you're trying to force feed to the rest of the world?


And as for geography... I'm a Canadian too... guess I'm not qualified to speak about AMERICAN football either... guess I should just close the site and let an American open one where you can spew your propoganda without challenge...

There is one exciting thing about this thread though... I think I can stack all the soap boxes high enough to finally make that trip to the moon that I've been dreaming about. Where do I go to get my moon visa? :-"

[Chris Luva Luva]

I can ship you this "win a trip to space" sweepstakes card I just got for purchasing a plantronics B/T earpeice.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

Think about it... you're all arguing about immigrants rights in a melting pot society... ridiculous...

With all due respect, the conversation is about illegal immigrants, not just immigrants.

That's where I have an issue with where the debate (in general, not just on THN) has headed. The government is seeking ways to "secure" our borders from people who enter by breaking the law, and someone, somehow, interpreted that stance as the Gov. saying "we don't want no immigrants".

Believeing THAT is what's "ridiculous".

[BossHog]

Like I said... I refuse to argue the scemantics of it... I don't expect you to understand. I'm just not fortunate enough to have the time required to beat my head off the wall... right now anyway.

[NikiH]

This issue is not about foreign policy. Perhaps if there were 1 million people at the border waiting to cross and the government was ignoring it, it'd be foreign policy. These people are already in the country and making demands upon our society. That makes this a domestic issue and as such people from other countries are entitled to their opinion but when it comes right down to making the decision as to what to do with these individuals the choice will not directly effect either of you.

It directly effects anyone living inside of the United States.

I know you and RIC are both very intelligent people but you seem to be overlooking the simple fact that this issue is something that we need to fix. Is the solution to just allow them all to stay here and live off of the economy that all of us work so hard everyday to promote.

I know this society is not perfect but since the days of 9-11 things MUST change. I may not have even voiced an opinion on the subject prior to the attacks but living through that fear is not something I want my children or grandchildren to ever encounter. If that means toughening up the immigration laws to make sure that every person in this country is documented then so be it.

[Redskin in Canada]

I know this society is not perfect but since the days of 9-11 things MUST change. I may not have even voiced an opinion on the subject prior to the attacks but living through that fear is not something I want my children or grandchildren to ever encounter. If that means toughening up the immigration laws to make sure that every person in this country is documented then so be it.

Yep, I say we blame the whole thing, the attacks, the war in Iraq, bad intelligence, the no end to the war, threats of all kinds to the USA, the oil crisis, the high price of gold and for all intents and purposes the arrival of Steve Spurrier to the Redskins on ...

... poor illegal immigrants.

As paranoia goes it is pretty good but it is also terrible logic, Niki. I hate to say it but this is what prejudices are built upon.

But your main argument is that I am free to express an opinion -as long- as it is not critical and it is not purported by yourself to be only -your- problem. I will really shut up then.

I offered to leave this topic behind in a previous post in good terms but you would not accept. Too bad. Have a nice day.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

I went back and checked the link on my original post, and the article has been removed from MSN. Here's what the WP wrote on the controversial translation of the U.S. National Anthem:

An Anthem's Discordant Notes
Spanish Version of 'Star-Spangled Banner' Draws Strong Reactions

By David Montgomery
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 28, 2006; A01



Oh say can you see -- a la luz de la aurora?

The national anthem that once endured the radical transformation administered by Jimi Hendrix's fuzzed and frantic Stratocaster now faces an artistic dare at least as extreme: translation into Spanish.

The new take is scheduled to hit the airwaves today. It's called "Nuestro Himno" -- "Our Anthem" -- and it was recorded over the past week by Latin pop stars including Ivy Queen, Gloria Trevi, Carlos Ponce, Tito "El Bambino," Olga Tañon and the group Aventura. Joining and singing in Spanish is Haitian American artist Wyclef Jean.

The different voices contribute lines the way 1985's "We Are the World" was put together by an ensemble of stars. The national anthem's familiar melody and structure are preserved, while the rhythms and instrumentation come straight out of Latin pop.

Can "The Star-Spangled Banner," and the republic for which it stands, survive? Outrage over what's being called "The Illegal Alien Anthem" is already building in the blogosphere and among conservative commentators.

Timed to debut the week Congress returned to debate immigration reform, with the country riven by the issue, "Nuestro Himno" is intended to be an anthem of solidarity for the movement that has drawn hundreds of thousands of people to march peacefully for immigrant rights in Washington and cities across the country, says Adam Kidron, president of Urban Box Office, the New York-based entertainment company that launched the project.

"It's the one thing everybody has in common, the aspiration to have a relationship with the United States . . . and also to express gratitude and patriotism to the United States for providing the opportunity," says Kidron.

The song was being prepared for e-mailing as MP3 packages to scores of Latino radio stations and other media last night, and Kidron was calling for stations to play the song simultaneously at 7 Eastern time this evening.

However, the same advance buzz that drew singers to scramble for inclusion in the recording sessions this week in New York, Miami, Texas, Mexico, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic has also spurred critics who say rendering the song in Spanish is a rejection of assimilation into the United States.

Even some movement supporters are puzzled by the use of Spanish.

"Even our Spanish media are saying, 'Why are we doing this, what are you trying to do?' " said Pedro Biaggi, the morning host with El Zol (99.1 FM), the most popular Hispanic radio station in the Washington area. "It's not for us to be going around singing the national anthem in Spanish. . . . We don't want to impose, we don't own the place. . . . We want to be accepted."

Still, Biaggi says he will play "Nuestro Himno" this morning if the song reaches the station in time. But he will talk about the language issue on the air and solicit listeners' views. He says he accepts the producers' explanation that the purpose is to spread the values of the anthem to a wider audience. He adds he will also play a version of "The Star-Spangled Banner" in English -- as he aired the Whitney Houston version earlier this week, when the controversy was beginning to brew.

In the Spanish version, the translation of the first stanza is relatively faithful to the spirit of the original, though Kidron says the producers wanted to avoid references to bombs and rockets. Instead, there is "fierce combat." The translation of the more obscure second stanza is almost a rewrite, with phrases such as "we are equal, we are brothers."

An alternate version to be released next month includes a rap in English that never occurred to Francis Scott Key:

Let's not start a war

With all these hard workers

They can't help where they were born

"Nuestro Himno" is as fraught with controversial cultural messages as the psychedelic "Banner" Hendrix delivered at the height of the Vietnam War.

Pressed on what he was trying to say with his Woodstock performance in 1969, Hendrix replied (according to biographer Charles Cross), "We're all Americans. . . . It was like 'Go America!' . . . We play it the way the air is in America today."

Now the national anthem is being remade again according to the way the air is in America, and the people behind "Nuestro Himno" say the message once more is: We're all Americans. It will be the lead track on an album about the immigrant experience called "Somos Americanos," due for release May 16. One dollar from each sale will go to immigrant rights groups, including the National Capital Immigration Coalition, which organized the march on the Mall on April 10.

But critics including columnist Michelle Malkin, who coined "The Illegal Alien Anthem" nickname, say the rendition crosses a line that Hendrix never stepped over with his instrumental version. Transforming the musical idiom of "The Star-Spangled Banner" is one thing, argue the skeptics, but translating the words sends the opposite message: We are not Americans.

"I'm really appalled. . . . We are not a bilingual nation," said George Taplin, director of the Virginia Chapter of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, part of a national countermovement that emphasizes border control and tougher enforcement, and objects to public funding for day-laborer sites. "When people are talking about becoming a part of this country, they should assimilate to the norm that's already here," Taplin said. "What we're talking about here is a sovereign nation with our ideals and our national identity, and that [anthem] is one of the icons of our nation's identity. I believe it should be in English as it was penned."

Yet, even in English, 61 percent of adults don't know all the words, a recent Harris poll found.

Appealing to such symbols of national identity to plug into their profound potency is how new movements compete for space within that identity. During the rally on the Mall, the immigrants and their supporters also waved thousands of American flags and recited the Pledge of Allegiance. But they didn't translate the pledge into Spanish. They said it in English.

Juan Carlos Ruiz, the general coordinator of the National Capital Immigration Coalition, said there's not a contradiction. The pledge was printed phonetically for Spanish speakers, and many reciting the sounds may not have understood the meaning. Putting the anthem in Spanish is a way to relay the meaning to people who haven't learned English yet, Ruiz said.

"It's part of the process to learn English," not a rejection of English, he said.

While critics sketch a nightmare scenario of a Canada-like land with an anthem sung in two languages, immigrant rights advocates say they agree learning English is essential. Studies of immigrant families suggest the process is inevitable: Eighty-two percent to 90 percent of the children of immigrants prefer English.

"The first step to understanding something is to understand it in the language you understand, and then you can understand it in another language," said Leo Chavez, director of Chicano/Latino Studies at the University of California at Irvine. "What this song represents at this moment is a communal shout, that the dream of America, which is represented by the song, is their dream, too."

Since its origins as the melody to an English drinking song called "To Anacreon in Heaven," circa 1780, "The Star-Spangled Banner" has had a long, strange trip. Key wrote the poem after watching the bombardment of Fort McHenry in 1814. It became the national anthem in 1931.

At least 389 versions have been recorded, according to Allmusic.com, a quick reference used by musicologists to get a sense of what's on the market. Now that Hendrix's "Banner" has mellowed into classic rock, it's hard to imagine that once some considered it disrespectful. The other recordings embrace a vast musical universe: from Duke Ellington to Dolly Parton to Tiny Tim. But musicologists cannot name another foreign-language version.

"America is a pluralistic society, but the anthem is a way that we can express our unity. If that's done in a different language, that doesn't seem to me personally to be a bad thing," said Michael Blakeslee, deputy executive director of the National Association for Music Education, which is leading a National Anthem Project to highlight the song and the school bands that play it in every style, from mariachi to steel drum.

"I assume the intent is one of making a statement about 'we are a part of this nation,' and those are wonderful sentiments and a noble intent," said Dan Sheehy, director of Smithsonian Folkways Recordings.

Benigno "Benny" Layton wonders. He's the leader of Los Hermanos Layton, a band of conjunto- and Tejano-style musicians in Elsa, Tex., 22 miles from Mexico. After the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, he recorded a traditional conjunto version of "The Star-Spangled Banner." It was instrumental.

"I'm a second-generation American," Layton said. "I love my country, and I love my [Mexican musical] heritage, and I try to keep it alive. But some things are sacred that you don't do. And translating the national anthem is one of them."

Unless they, too, remove this from their site, here's the link where this article can be found.

I get the feeling some people opined on the matter without having the benefit (or taking the time to) of reading the article on the subject. Hope this helps.

[NikiH]

Whatever RIC. The people who hijacked those plans were NOT in this country illegal. What does that make them? Illegal immigrants. Even if they were legal immigrants if you bother reading my ENTIRE post you will see that I believe that immigration on a whole needs to be scaled back.

You know what is pissing me off about this. You listen to only what you want to hear out of what I said. I said you entitled to your opinion. I never once said shut up or stop voicing it. I do not agree and I do not have to agree. Honestly this solution does not effect you the way it does citizens of this country. So jump to whatever wild conclusions you would like. Your attitude is really starting to get to me, so I'm done. You can be right (since you feel you have to be) and I'll just shut my mouth from this point on.

Oh and to clarify NONE of the previous post was directed at you. If you reread it you will see that I was speaking to Boss Hog. For a smart man you sure do overlook the obvious at times.

[DESkins]

Having sex to prove my virginity? Where do I sign up? I keep trying to lose it, and the damn thing keeps following me home!

[Irn-Bru]

Yep, I say we blame the whole thing, the attacks, the war in Iraq, bad intelligence, the no end to the war, threats of all kinds to the USA, the oil crisis, the high price of gold and for all intents and purposes the arrival of Steve Spurrier to the Redskins on ...

I must say, I hadn't thought about blaming the Spurrier era on illegal immigrants. . . sounds like Fios and I have some work to do in our think tank.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

Yep, I say we blame the whole thing, the attacks, the war in Iraq, bad intelligence, the no end to the war, threats of all kinds to the USA, the oil crisis, the high price of gold and for all intents and purposes the arrival of Steve Spurrier to the Redskins on ...

I must say, I hadn't thought about blaming the Spurrier era on illegal immigrants. . . sounds like Fios and I have some work to do in our think tank.

Unfortunately, Fios is still boycotting the U.S.

[Redskin in Canada]

Oh and to clarify NONE of the previous post was directed at you. If you reread it you will see that I was speaking to Boss Hog. For a smart man you sure do overlook the obvious at times.

Really?

... but when it comes right down to making the decision as to what to do with these individuals the choice will not directly effect either of you.

Either of whom and whom then?

Writing in anger has never been helpful to encourage effective communication.

[Fios]

Yep, I say we blame the whole thing, the attacks, the war in Iraq, bad intelligence, the no end to the war, threats of all kinds to the USA, the oil crisis, the high price of gold and for all intents and purposes the arrival of Steve Spurrier to the Redskins on ...

I must say, I hadn't thought about blaming the Spurrier era on illegal immigrants. . . sounds like Fios and I have some work to do in our think tank.

We have a tank? That ROCKS ... can I drive?

[Fios]

Yep, I say we blame the whole thing, the attacks, the war in Iraq, bad intelligence, the no end to the war, threats of all kinds to the USA, the oil crisis, the high price of gold and for all intents and purposes the arrival of Steve Spurrier to the Redskins on ...

I must say, I hadn't thought about blaming the Spurrier era on illegal immigrants. . . sounds like Fios and I have some work to do in our think tank.

Unfortunately, Fios is still boycotting the U.S.

I boycott all nations, states, federations ... I exist in my own realm with my own, variable laws

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

Yep, I say we blame the whole thing, the attacks, the war in Iraq, bad intelligence, the no end to the war, threats of all kinds to the USA, the oil crisis, the high price of gold and for all intents and purposes the arrival of Steve Spurrier to the Redskins on ...

I must say, I hadn't thought about blaming the Spurrier era on illegal immigrants. . . sounds like Fios and I have some work to do in our think tank.

We have a tank? That ROCKS ... can I drive?

I think he meant one of these, Fios:



But, feel free to swim through the eyes of the skull nestled among the pebbles.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

BTW - For those of you keeping score at home, an OVERWHELMING number of THNers agree that "Nuestro Himno" was, in fact, a bad idea.

[NikiH]

Writing in anger has never been helpful to encourage effective communication.

I have a solution to this problem. Stop pissing me off!

[UK Skins Fan]

Crikey, what's been going on here then? I avoided this thread for a few days, because I couldn't be bothered to read yet another interminable thread on US politics. I had a read through the whole thread today, and I couldn't help having a little chuckle. It's just amazing how a thread can degenerate swiftly into a feeding frenzy, leaving everybody in a tattered mess at the end of it.

Please don't get me wrong; I'm not belittling the contributions of anybody to this thread. Truly, with very few exceptions, nearly everybody has posted something here which I can agree with, from either "side" of the debate.

However, the passion of these debates can blind all of us to the validity of the arguments of others. But there is the irony - take the passion out of the debate, and don't you risk apathy instead? And wouldn't apathy be a terrible thing?
There are so many points here on so many interwoven topics that I think I'd lose the will to live before addressing even half of them. So, I'll resist the temptation at this point to enter a substantive argument on the merits of the EU (and believe me, I have some pretty strong views on that one), Swiss foreign policy (do they have one?), immigrants, emigrants, illegals, 9/11, and the fear of terrorist attacks (something that the English and Irish were living with for years before most of the the Western world ever considered "Islamic Fundamentalism"), and the multitude of other deviations this conversation has taken.

The only point I'll address is this one made by RiC:

Redskin in Canada wrote:

I do not participate in political threads. And this one is turned from one with prejudice and ignorance into a racist and political thread very rapidly. The issue was posted in a stupid manner from the beginning as an "insult" poll and the debate can only go downhill from there.

I respect your opinions greatly RiC, but here I must beg to differ. I have no idea what your history is with Redeemed, but I honestly don't see the problem with his opening post. In my humble and sincere opinion, the thread started downhill from the moment your hostile opening remarks were posted.