Campbell To Compete For No. 2 Spot In Training Camp

[crazyhorse1]

ive always said that jason wil come in in a couple of the early games late if we have a substantial lead in addition to preseason play. i think gibbs is gonna want to give him as many reps in the regular season as possible so he can be our starter next season. of course if he sucks in preseason im glad we picked up collins

You will be a little less glad we picked him up after watching him play.

[Chris Luva Luva]

I hate pessimists. Especially those who cry and moan without any facts or information to support their nervous breakdown.

We were 2 games from the Superbowl. Added Al Saunders and Jerry Gray to our staff. Got a Pass Rushing DE. Signed not one but TWO good receivers. Added a proven TE. Added a hard hitting Safety.
We have a 6 foot 4 230 lb, mobile and accurate QB waiting in the wings, and the draft coming up.

ALL YOU HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IS NEGATIVE CRAP???

Boooo to all of you....Brunell played well with one reciever last year. This year we have more weapons and an effecive scheme and all you people do is moan and whine about Brunell.

He shut your traps last year and he will do it again this year. If not, Campbell will prove why Gibbs was a genius for drafting him. What the heck is there to be crying and complaining about?

Gibbs is not going to play Campbell just because some anxious non-athlete wants to see Campbell give it a whirl. Get your popcorn ready for the pre-season, you will see him play then. If Brunell gets hurt, you'll see him play then. If not, next year.

Quit acting frantic...about 25 teams in the NFL would love to have our situation at QB.

My goodness, Hogsters post needed to be quoted again for those who missed it.

[skinsfan#33]

Answer me this. Who do he have to throw two after Thanksgiving?

He ONLY had one WR. His degredation in stats are not 100% his fault. 6 game winning streak anyone?

Brunell wasn't throwing to Patten when he was healthy so not having Patten in the lineup isn't a very good excuse for Brunell's declining stats last year. And even when Patten played he was dropping balls all the time so it's not like defenses were keying on him anymore than they were on our other receivers.

There was a clear difference in the Skin's offensive production once Patten was hurt. Moss' yards per catch went way down and so did his number of TDs. Patten should have had 4 or 5 TDs but Mark underthrew him by 5-10 yards and allowed the toasted DBs to make a play on the ball. Patten's number don't reflect the impact that he had on the team!

[Mursilis]

How do the fortune tellers here now Jason is going to succeed? I dont want him to but he's still a huge question mark.

How do we know he's going to succeed? Well honestly, I have no idea - he hasn't taken a single snap in an NFL game yet, so we just can't know. How many great college QBs have been total busts in the pro's? Too many to count, really. Heath Shuler, anyone? But I do know we traded three draft picks for him, so we might as well find out if he can play at some point. And speaking of huge question marks, how do we know Brunell's even going to finish the season? If we know he's not getting any younger, and has an injury history, is it the wiser choice to let him compete for the #1 job in camp, or let him make his debut in the playoffs when Mark goes down?

Gibbs won with 3 QB's he's not scared to switch.

Which is why he stuck with Brunell so long in '04, even when he had terrible numbers (Aaron Brooks was better that year!) and a completion rate of less than 50%. And before anyone blames the receivers again, note that Ramsey had a better completion rate by nearly 13 points with the exact same team that same year. We all better pray Brunell stays healthy, because he's going to be in there whether he's healthy or not.

[Irn-Bru]

How is he coming along nicely? The only thing he's learning by sitting on the bench is how to carry a clipboard. There is only so much that a qb can learn sitting on the bench.

You and I don't know much about Campbell. Luckily, there are people that do. If you think Gibbs can't know anything about Campbell from camps, preseason, meetings (talking Xs and Os), and practices throughout the entire season, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Why does everyone assume that we have access to all of the the knowledge available and then criticize Gibbs based on it?

But I do know we traded three draft picks for him, so we might as well find out if he can play at some point.

I'm not sure who the "we" is in that sentence. Do you mean the Redskins coaches? The Redskins organization? The concept of the Washington Redskins football team?

The fans?


Well, luckily enough there's a man that's paid millions of dollars a year to make sure that we get the best out of Campbell and every player on our team. He'll get his chance to shine.

[sch1977]

Patrick Ramsey is no longer on OUR team!! Whether you agree with the decision or not, he is gone-Get over it!!

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

If Campbell ends up as our 3rd string QB... then what a waste of draft picks. I don't believe that Gibbs and staff could have been that wrong about moving up to draft Campbell if they were not at least somewhat confident that he could perform and be our future.

Gibbs is just trying to say the right thing here. The only thing that Brunell can offer that Jason can't is experience. Jason can out perform Brunell in every other catagory. He can run faster, scramble better and has a much stronger and more accurate arm than Brunell. Campbell had a different offensive coordinator all 4 years at Auburn, meaning he had to learn a new offense every year. Jason is very intelligent and learns quickly.

Why do I say this.. because I have seen Campbell play quite a bit. Some of you may remember me saying this a while ago. After we drafted Campbell, I TIVO'ed all of Auburns games from the prior season. They replay all the SEC games in the off-season here in Florida. I was VERY impressed, as were all the commentators in every game. Seeing him play in a couple of preseason games last year with the 2nd and 3rd string teams does not give a accurate picture of this guys capabilities. He is a true stud. They say "don't knock it til' you've tried it." I say "don't knock him til' you've seen him."

Now, with that said, I like Brunell. He has done a fine job for us. I also feel quite comfortable that Gibbs and Saunders will make the right choice. The better man will obviously start. But IMO, playing Brunell will only postpone our future. I am pulling for Campbell, as that is evident. He will bring a new and better dynamic to the offense.

That's not a fair assessment. I believe that Mark would outperform Jason against the very same SEC teams Auburn played that year. I'm convinced, that, if given the chance, he could certainly lead those Auburn kids to a national championship.

[Chris Luva Luva]

Ramsey is NO LONGER a Redskin.
If you love him so much become a Jets fan.
If he was so good why did we get such a low pick for him?
If he was so much better than Brunell than why did he lose the preseason competition to Brunell?
It was clear that Gibbs wanted to bench Ramsey again but he gave him enough rope to hang himself.
Crazyhorse, those stats you spit out can be flipped and made to look any kind of way you want them to just like when you post at the political crap. On gameday, Ramsey hasn't shown up enough to have faith in him.
Ramsey is a jitterbug who never looked comfy in the pocket.
Ramsey has no pocket prescence and would have taken more hits than Brunell would have.

Brunell got us to our deepest playoff run in more than a decade.
He made this run with ONLY ONE WR SINCE THANKSGIVING.
He made this run with a 40 year old guy on the line.
He helped the team win games even after a 300lb man hit his knee.
In 2005 he never single handedly lost a game for us by throwing 3+ picks in a game.
Why remove a QB who got us that far into the playoffs just to replace him with a rookie?
Prove to me that Patrick would not have been hobbled by that hit to the knee?

Its my OPINION that this team would NOT have made the playoffs with the loss of Patten. Brunell is smarter with the ball than Ramsey and I feel that he would have tried to fit the ball into doulble/triple coverage like in years past. I'd rather have a QB who will throw the ball away and not set the team back. Patrick is not Brett and even Brett really stunk it up last year. The difference is that Brett is actually acurate and a competent (to say the least) QB.

[Chris Luva Luva]

Now, with that said, I like Brunell. He has done a fine job for us. I also feel quite comfortable that Gibbs and Saunders will make the right choice.

You're right, they already have made the right choice.

The better man will obviously start. But IMO, playing Brunell will only postpone our future. I am pulling for Campbell, as that is evident. He will bring a new and better dynamic to the offense.

What proof do you have that Jason can bring these things to the table at a NFL level?

Jason Campbell lead us to the playoffs last season....oops I mean Mark Brunell.

We all HOPE that he will. Just like there were people were excited about Shuler!

[Mursilis]

Brunell got us to our deepest playoff run in more than a decade.

So what? Trent Dilfer got HIS team not only deep into the playoffs a few years back, but into the Super Bowl, and WON, yet is there anyone who thinks he's a great QB? Like Brunell, he had the help of a great defense, a decent running game, one quality TE (Shannon Sharpe), and not much else. Just like great QBs can elevate average receivers (like Brady in New England), great receivers (like Moss and ey) can elevate average QBs.

[Mursilis]

What proof do you have that Jason can bring these things to the table at a NFL level?

Funny you should ask that; aren't you always ragging on people for not trusting Coach Gibbs? Well, Gibbs traded three draft picks to get Campbell - what more proof do you need?

As for me, I've said before and all along, I just don't know. On the one hand, JC was a star in college on an undefeated team, so he obviously has talent, but on the other hand, college QBs flame out all the time in the pros, so I don't claim to be able to see the future. I just think he should be given a shot to compete for the starting job in camp. At some point, he's going to have to play; we can't just keep him on the bench forever for the indefinite "future".

[Chris Luva Luva]

Exactly, your point is that they help each other win. Thats what this offense is, a machine. Its not a one man show like in ATL.

Dilfer was the head of the offense and he NEVER LOST the game for them. You didn’t seem him throwing the ball into double/triple coverage. He didn’t make a highlight reel and so what? He has a ring on his finger. You’d rather have a QB who is boring and brings home a SB or one that makes a highlight reel all season and doesn’t do squat to make the playoffs.

Brunell – gives us our best chance to win now.
Jason – if we start him now may or may not be good. If he stinks it up, it’ll be finicky people who sway with the win who will want Gibbs fired for not going with our best option at the time and taking a chance.

[SkinsFreak]

Some of you have mentioned that Jason may not be ready and needs to sit longer.

This line of thinking just doesn't make much sense. If Gibbs had planned for Campbell to sit for 2 years or more, we could have used those picks (that we used on Jason) to fill other needs at that time. Then 2 or 3 years later draft a solid QB. Why would Jason need to sit any longer? Mark played ok but he has passed his prime. He is not going to get any younger, any stronger or any better. I am the same age as Brunell and can assure you that your body does not recover from exhaustion and injury as well. Your reflexes slow down and you can't recover as fast. Sorry, but for you younger guys, this is an inevitable fact. Gibbs knows this. Jason is young, entering his prime and adds to the youth we now have on this team. He merely needs a chance.

[Chris Luva Luva]

This line of thinking just doesn't make much sense. If Gibbs had planned for Campbell to sit for 2 years or more, we could have used those picks (that we used on Jason) to fill other needs at that time.

Wrong. You're thinking of Jason as a tool. Gibbs picked him for specific reasons, reasons that are unique to Jason. There will NEVER be another JC in the draft.

Then 2 or 3 years later draft a solid QB. Why would Jason need to sit any longer?

Because HE'S not ready.

Mark played ok but he has passed his prime.

So did Darrell Green, whats your point? They both are/were still effective and valuable assets to the team.

He is not going to get any younger, any stronger or any better.

That doesn't mean he's getting worse.

I am the same age as Brunell and can assure you that your body does not recover from exhaustion and injury as well. Your reflexes slow down and you can't recover as fast. Sorry, but for you younger guys, this is an inevitable fact. Gibbs knows this.

True, you've said nothing new. Gibbs even stated what you said and that they're taking measures to relieve some work from Brunell to pass on to Jason to aide his development.

Jason is young, entering his prime and adds to the youth we now have on this team.

This statement will be true next year when he'll most likely get the nod or get a chance to fight for the #1 position. Even if Brunell goes down he's going to come back when he's healed. I think at that point Gibbs will allow Jason to battle for the #1 spot if he deserves it then he'll win it.
Im glad he's taking a slow approach with Jason. Ramsey was thrown to the wolves and look how that turned out.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

Some of you have mentioned that Jason may not be ready and needs to sit longer.

This line of thinking just doesn't make much sense. If Gibbs had planned for Campbell to sit for 2 years or more, we could have used those picks (that we used on Jason) to fill other needs at that time. Then 2 or 3 years later draft a solid QB. Why would Jason need to sit any longer? Mark played ok but he has passed his prime. He is not going to get any younger, any stronger or any better. I am the same age as Brunell and can assure you that your body does not recover from exhaustion and injury as well. Your reflexes slow down and you can't recover as fast. Sorry, but for you younger guys, this is an inevitable fact. Gibbs knows this. Jason is young, entering his prime and adds to the youth we now have on this team. He merely needs a chance.

I understand what you're saying, and I'd probably think the same way, if I was not looking at the entire portrait that Gibbs is painting with the decisions he's made so far.

First, in year one, he acquired the canvas. The old painting looked awful, when he tried to " retouch" what was already in place.

Second, last year he was able to add colors HE wanted to his picture. He had a nice foundation, but still some of the brushes weren't giving him the results he wanted. He exchanged 3 potential foam brushes to acquire an important a natural bristle brush for future use. True, it cost a lot to acquire that brush (JC), but it would have cost him more to acquire three sub-par brushes (picks), since eventually they would need to be replaced.

This year, he making strides in competing his portrait. He's worked hard to acquire proven instruments of productivity which will allow him to complete the portrait in the time he set out too (5 yrs).

He might use that natural bristle brush he acquired last year (JC), but the trusty pallette that's holding his colors in place (Brunell) is still doing its job.

In short...

Joe Gibbs the master painter is acquiring the tools he needs to complete what he set out to do. He's not using them all at once, for he knows it's a process that requires time. Though his time is shortening and, for some, impatience is growing, he remains in control, and he will decide when he will use the tools in his toolbox.

Now, let the man paint. The Skins haven't looked this good in toooo long.

[Steve Spurrier III]

Because HE'S not ready.

We don't know that until we see him on the field.

That doesn't mean he's getting worse.

We don't know that either. At some point, the lack of playing time is going to do more harm than good. And for all we know, we may have already passed that point.

Ramsey was thrown to the wolves and look how that turned out.

How many times do we have to go over this? Ramsey and Campbell are in completley different situations. Ramsey played his frist game Weed 4 while Campbell has already missed an entire season. The offenses are completely different. We know that Campbell won't endure a beating similar to the one Ramsey did. And finally, Campbell is a much better player to begin with.

I could say Roethlsiberger was thrown to the wolves and look how that turned out just as easily, but that too would be a ridiculous argument.

[SkinzCanes]

This statement will be true next year when he'll most likely get the nod or get a chance to fight for the #1 position. Even if Brunell goes down he's going to come back when he's healed. I think at that point Gibbs will allow Jason to battle for the #1 spot if he deserves it then he'll win it.
Im glad he's taking a slow approach with Jason. Ramsey was thrown to the wolves and look how that turned out.

The problem is that very rarely can a young, inexperienced qb actually beat out an experienced, veteran nfl qb in an open competition in training camp. Firstly, young qb's obviously struggle at first and secondly, having a veteran looking over your shoulder and being a threat to take over your job is not the way to bring along a young qb. That's why Palmer was given the job instead of having a competition with Kitna. If they had competed in camp Kitna most likely would've beaten out Palmer and he probably would've outperformed him during the season. However, the coaches knew that in the long term Palmer was better and that he had the potential to post much better numbers past his rookie season. Whether or not the Skins do this this season or next season, at some point they are going to have to put their faith in Campbell and give him the starting nod.

[PulpExposure]

Totally true. Frankly, a lot of us fans of facing the facts, are becoming extremely fatigued with a-factual representations of Ramsey performances and so called failures. His stats are better than Brunell's as a Redskin... he's gained far more yards than Brunell in fewer games and, in the Gibbs era-- under identical conditions Brunell faced-- done a better job not turning the ball over.

Yes, you read correctly. Check it out yourself. You've let an imaginery world supersede the real one.

Okay, let's look. As you said, in the Gibbs era:

Ramsey played in 13 games. 1944 yards (1665 in 2004, 279 in 2005). 11 TDs, 12 INTs, 1 fumble (not lost).

Brunell played in 25 games. 4244 yards (1194 in 2004, 3050 in 2005). 30 TDs, 16 INTs, 6 fumbles (3 lost).

So, let's see what assertions you made. The yardage thing is silly, since Ramsey has never even thrown for 3000 yards in a season. Heck, his career high is 2166 yards under Spurrier. If you look at the numbers above, Ramsey has played in roughly half the number of games Brunell did. And if you do the math, twice his total of 1944 is 3888. Brunell has 4244, which...is more.

The turnover thing? Ramsey had 12 turnovers in 13 games under Gibbs, meaning .92 turnovers per game.

Brunell had 19 turnovers in 25 games. 0.76 turnovers per game.

Let's look at touchdowns, that's fun too (and neither had a rushing TD under Gibbs). Ramsey had 10 TDs in 13 games, meaning .77 touchdowns per game. Brunell had 30 TDs in 25 games, meaning 1.2 TDs per game.

So...let's see. Ramsey committed 21% more turnovers per game, and Brunell produced 64% more touchdowns per game. Brunell has thrown for more yards.

Please don't let the facts get in the way of what you want to say.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

Totally true. Frankly, a lot of us fans of facing the facts, are becoming extremely fatigued with a-factual representations of Ramsey performances and so called failures. His stats are better than Brunell's as a Redskin... he's gained far more yards than Brunell in fewer games and, in the Gibbs era-- under identical conditions Brunell faced-- done a better job not turning the ball over.

Yes, you read correctly. Check it out yourself. You've let an imaginery world supersede the real one.

Okay, let's look. As you said, in the Gibbs era:

Ramsey played in 13 games. 1944 yards (1665 in 2004, 279 in 2005). 11 TDs, 12 INTs, 1 fumble (not lost).

Brunell played in 25 games. 4244 yards (1194 in 2004, 3050 in 2005). 30 TDs, 16 INTs, 6 fumbles (3 lost).

So, let's see what assertions you made. The yardage thing is silly, since Ramsey has never even thrown for 3000 yards in a season. Heck, his career high is 2166 yards under Spurrier. If you look at the numbers above, Ramsey has played in roughly half the number of games Brunell did. And if you do the math, twice his total of 1944 is 3888. Brunell has 4244, which...is more.

The turnover thing? Ramsey had 12 turnovers in 13 games under Gibbs, meaning .92 turnovers per game.

Brunell had 19 turnovers in 25 games. 0.76 turnovers per game.

Let's look at touchdowns, that's fun too (and neither had a rushing TD under Gibbs). Ramsey had 10 TDs in 13 games, meaning .77 touchdowns per game. Brunell had 30 TDs in 25 games, meaning 1.2 TDs per game.

So...let's see. Ramsey committed 21% more turnovers per game, and Brunell produced 64% more touchdowns per game. Brunell has thrown for more yards.

Please don't let the facts get in the way of what you want to say.

[/discussion]

[John Manfreda]

If Jason has to earn his way up the ranks, Mark should have to earn the right to be the starter. Just saying he was #1 last year doesn't cut it, in my opinion. After all, Ramsey was clearly the better QB in '04, and look how quickly he was benched in '05. Being the incumbent then sure didn't win him any love.

He was given a chance during the preseason and look horrible. Who's fault is that?
Rothersburger looked horrible in the preseason also, I think he did okay. Or maybe its just me, so did Hasselback. Presiason doesn't mean anyhting anyone that has half a brain knows that.

[crazyhorse1]

Brunell sucks. We could have won 12 or 13 games without brunell for sure. Ill take my shots for this comment but I dont care. He is a fumble waiting to happen. He will get his shot at starter but I am rooting for Campbell. Get a shot at no. 2 come on!!!

You get the Emperor has No Clothes Award and my vote for fan of the week. Don't let them know your address.

[crazyhorse1]

Exactly, your point is that they help each other win. Thats what this offense is, a machine. Its not a one man show like in ATL.

Dilfer was the head of the offense and he NEVER LOST the game for them. You didn’t seem him throwing the ball into double/triple coverage. He didn’t make a highlight reel and so what? He has a ring on his finger. You’d rather have a QB who is boring and brings home a SB or one that makes a highlight reel all season and doesn’t do squat to make the playoffs.

Brunell – gives us our best chance to win now.
Jason – if we start him now may or may not be good. If he stinks it up, it’ll be finicky people who sway with the win who will want Gibbs fired for not going with our best option at the time and taking a chance.

As I've pointed out to you, and you seem to forget, Ramsey has a better record of holding on to the ball in the Gibbs era than Brunell has. Brunell is actually the guy most likely to turn it over. How can you contest the stats? and why repeatedly make a claim that can so easily be refuted?

[SkinzCanes]

Okay, let's look. As you said, in the Gibbs era:

Ramsey played in 13 games. 1944 yards (1665 in 2004, 279 in 2005). 11 TDs, 12 INTs, 1 fumble (not lost).

Brunell played in 25 games. 4244 yards (1194 in 2004, 3050 in 2005). 30 TDs, 16 INTs, 6 fumbles (3 lost).

Check your stats. Brunell had 6 fumles in 2004 (3 lost) and 11 fumbles last season (6 lost).

So in terms of turnover it's a lot closer than you make it out to seem. 12 tunrovers for Ramsey and 25 for Brunell in the games that they have played. Ramsey's td/turnover ratio isn't very good but Brunell's isn't exactly something to brag about either.

[Chris Luva Luva]

We don't know that until we see him on the field.

Obviously Gibbs does and thats why he made the decision. He saw him everyday of every practice.

We don't know that either. At some point, the lack of playing time is going to do more harm than good. And for all we know, we may have already passed that point.

I agree but its only year 2. Brady didn't start right away. Gibbs knows what he's doing.

How many times do we have to go over this? Ramsey and Campbell are in completley different situations. Ramsey played his frist game Weed 4 while Campbell has already missed an entire season. The offenses are completely different. We know that Campbell won't endure a beating similar to the one Ramsey did. And finally, Campbell is a much better player to begin with.

I haven't gone over this with you at all. The only difference here is the blocking schemes. Sure Jason won't be hit but his confidence still can sink just like Ramseys did. Reading coverages wrong, throwing picks, possibly losing games will illadvised throws... Its all a possibility and a very real one.

I could say Roethlsiberger was thrown to the wolves and look how that turned out just as easily, but that too would be a ridiculous argument.

How often in the history of the sport has that happened? Once. He is the 1 in 2 billion chance that things like that happen. He is not the norm.

[John Manfreda]

I want Campbell in there as much as anyone, but Mark Brunell can get us a Superbowl victory this season. If Mark stays healthy, Gibbs will keep going with him. I also have no doubt that Campbell will be ready when/if his number gets called. QBs are Gibbs specialty. Look at the guys we won Superbowls with people.

Mark can get us to the show and win it. Gibbs would love nothing more than to let Jason sit another year. If that happens, there will be no learning curve once he starts. He'll just come in and be good. If he has to come in this year, he may struggle a bit, but nothing major IMO. Roethlesburger(?) isn't a very good QB IMO, but he took Pittsburgh to a 15-1 record last year and won the Superbowl this year. That's a huge testament to his team, and our team is now better than Pittsburghs

We are going to be fine no matter who lines up at QB...

Big Ben is one of the best in football and the best young Qb in football. Don't give me this crap about his surronding cast every superbowl winning Qb had a great surronding cast. If the Steelers offered me Big Ben for Campell I would do it in a flash and everyone on this board would too.