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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:26 am
by crazyhorse1
PulpExposure wrote:crazyhorse1 wrote:ACTUALLY, Ramsey's 193 yds per start puts him in the company of Hall of Famer John Elway for one. In his first four years, Elway averaged 200 yds per start on a far better team than Ramsey ever played for and with far better protection than Ramsey ever had.
Also, and here's a really interesting fact. Ramsey had a completion percentage of 56.9% and Elway had a completion percentage of 54%.
Let me preface this by saying I like Ramsey a lot, and I think he has a lot of potential. But he hasn't proven to be a very good NFL quarterback.
Comparing Elway to Ramsey is hilarious. You might have forgotten one big difference. Elway could run, well. Ramsey is a freaking statue. Elway was dangerous because he could run it when the play broke down. If the play breaks down on Ramsey, he throws one hell of a nice interception or takes a nice sack.
193 yards per game on a 16 game season would be 3088 yards. Considering the great NFL quarterbacks throw for 4000 regularly, I'm not sure how you can compare him to "the greats".
Elway averaged 219 yards per game anyways. He also had a 57:43 TD to INT ratio. Ramsey has a 53:47 TD to INT ratio. Factor in Elway's running, and I have no idea how you can compare Ramsey to Elway.
Ramsey's career stats are pretty similar to Frerottes, actually.
Pat Ramsey. 55.7% career completion. 34 TD, 29 INT, 5649 yards, 6.6 Yards per attempt. Career rating of 75.0.
Gus Frerotte. 54.1% completion. 95 TD, 79 INT, 18093 yards. 6.9 yards per attempt. Career rating of 75.3.
Looks like to me that Frerotte is actually a better quarterback.
Heck, just for fun, let's look at Charlie Batch.
Charlie Batch. 56.2% Competions. 50 TD, 41 INT. 9309 Yards, 6.8 Yards per attempt. Career rating? 76.9.
Ouch.
Try not to use sneaky stats. For instance, don't sneak in Elway's career percentages when we're talking about the first four years of QB's career. In his first four years, Elway averaged 200 a game his first four years, not the 219 figure you've sneaked in.
You've also slipped in career ratings of Ferrotte and Charlie Batch. You're a bad boy. Of course QB's get better over time. You're talking trash.
You also tell me to factor in Elway's running, then don't bother to factor it in. Why not? I'll tell you, why not. Because his imaginary yardage is greater than his actual yardage. Nice trick.
You also say I compare Ramsey to football greats. Actually, I said his stats put him in the company of the NFl's finer QB's, not the greats. Second, I said only that his four year stats puts him in the company of the four year stats of John Elway.
Nothing you said in rebuttal touched my assertion.
You attempted to rebut it purely with misdirection, false representations of my position, and stats that have no application to my assertion.
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:51 am
by Redskin in Canada
SirSmizzy wrote:Delusional. We can't afford him? Why are we cutting everybody ? To fit him under the cap. Ive got a candy bar for you. Go somehwere and eat it.
Missy,
So, if he is traded because you can not and will not afford him, we get YOU to swallow all of that bar in your mouth, Right?
You and the whole world know that this franchise tag was applied with no other purpose but to retain him while getting something of value in return. While nobody can claim that the move is ill-advised, the motive is transparent to EVERYBODY.
Abe is being displayed for the best trade value he can attract. Good luck on your first-year reconstruction process (sarcasm)
NY Jets are the new Bungles of the NFL.
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:03 pm
by box
Pram compared to Elway? LMAO.......... Stop just Stop
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:07 pm
by KPrince1975
Isn't humorous how ever topic can go back to the argument about Patrick Ramsey. I think he needs a fresh start somewhere else. Too much drama involving him here.
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:10 pm
by KPrince1975
HEROHAMO wrote:Skinsfan55 wrote:Um, that is insane... How could that be possible?
We'd be ripping the Jets a new one, surely we would have to offer a lot more in terms of players and this would probably mean we have to cut Arrington (providing it would save us money, there are still issues with the CBA), Hall, Bowen, etc.
I would LOVE for this to happen, don't get me wrong, but geez, it's an awful lot to expect.
I dont think so really. The Jets have not renewed Penningtons contract and are surely in need of a Qb. They just might think Ramsey is the answer. Also Abraham has been unhappy playing for the Jets for a while now. Something might be able to happen. Truthfully Id trade Ramsey for a first round pick or a couple of picks a second and third round pick. I love Ramsey but hey sometimes sacrifices must be made. All in all I doubt any of this will happen but hey well see.
\
There aren't any teams that will trade a 1st round pick for Ramsey. His value is a third round pick, and that is just one of the reasons why it will be hard for us to get rid of him.
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:36 pm
by Steve Spurrier III
crazyhorse1 wrote:ACTUALLY, Ramsey's 193 yds per start puts him in the company of Hall of Famer John Elway for one.
For every John Elway, there are hundreds of quarterbacks who didn't make the leap. Try not to cherry-pick.
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:14 pm
by PulpExposure
crazyhorse1 wrote:You've also slipped in career ratings of Ferrotte and Charlie Batch. You're a bad boy. Of course QB's get better over time. You're talking trash.
Gus Frerotte had a 79 passer rating in his 2nd full season starting, and made the ProBowl. Charlie Batch's first two seasons, he had a 83.5 and an 84.1 passer rating. Both are higher than their career averages. Looks like they got worse as they went on.
You also tell me to factor in Elway's running, then don't bother to factor it in. Why not? I'll tell you, why not. Because his imaginary yardage is greater than his actual yardage. Nice trick.
Didn't bother because I thought it was obvious. Patrick Ramsey career rushing stats: 45 rushes, 83 yards, 2 TDs in 34 games.
John Elway, in his first 26 games played: 84 rushes, 383 yards, 2 TDs. In 8 less games, it's far more.
His next season? 51 rushes, 253 yards.
Why should I have had to do this? It's self-evident.
You also say I compare Ramsey to football greats. Actually, I said his stats put him in the company of the NFl's finer QB's, not the greats.
Throwing for 3000 yards a season puts him in the company of the Frerottes and Batches of the NFL, not the "league's finer quarterbacks".
Nothing you said in rebuttal touched my assertion.
You attempted to rebut it purely with misdirection, false representations of my position, and stats that have no application to my assertion.
No, I expected you to use deductive reasoning. I don't like to spell out every last bit for people. I assume people have a modicum of intelligence and are able to extrapolate from data provided. I am also constantly disappointed.
I guess that's a flaw with me.
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:23 pm
by crazyhorse1
Coming up with 2 examples like Batches and Ferotte is the definition of cherry picking. However, providing data you should have provided earlier is commendable. Previous info you provided failed to provide opportunities for either deduction or extrapolation. You were simply undiscliplined, if not ingenuine.
Also, as I'm sure you understand, you have still not made a respectable case against the skills of Patrick Ramsey in comparison to Elway's. Ramsey only played about 20 games in his first four seasons and you have unfairly compared his rushing totals for those 20 games with Elway's rushing totals for 26 games and made no allowances for Denver's far superior line. I remind you that Washington's OL led the league in allowing sacks during the Spurier years. At any rate, adding about 12 yds or so to Elways's passing yds gives him 212 yds per game, and adding Ramsey's 4 yds of rushing per game to his passing total gives him 201 per game. This allows us to observe that Elway and Ramsey kept company yardage wise per game during their first four years in spite of the fact the Ram was throwing to poorer receivers and was playing behind the worse protection system in professional football.
The fact that this is so counter to reality as perceived by almost everyone should awaken our curiousity, not our scourn and dismissal. I don't care who the better QB was or will in the end be. I do think, however, Ramsey is underrated at this point in his career, and I would like to know why. One thing that occurs to me is that he looks uncertain and often seems to get the snap only at the last second. Another is that he moves his feet when he throws. A third is that he has looked really bad on several occasions when receivers have broken the wrong way. That he misses passes or throws inadvised passes for interceptions is not a cause- he's no more guilty of that than others. He does looks a little crazy around the eyes.
Gibbs done him wrong, and Gibbs defenders are trying to justify the unjustifiable.By putting Patrick on the bench in 2004, Gibbs threw away a chance to go to the playoffs. By leaving him on the bench, Gibbs threw away a chance to go to the SB. If he puts Patrick on the bench or trades him this years, Gibbs may be putting the Skins in last place in the division.
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:46 pm
by Steve Spurrier III
crazyhorse1 wrote:Coming up with 2 examples like Batches and Ferotte is the definition of cherry picking.
But coming up with the lone example of Elway is not? You can't just dismiss examples like Batch and Frerotte (and the hundreds more like them) but continue to argue about Elway.
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:12 am
by crazyhorse1
Steve Spurrier III wrote:crazyhorse1 wrote:Coming up with 2 examples like Batches and Ferotte is the definition of cherry picking.
But coming up with the lone example of Elway is not? You can't just dismiss examples like Batch and Frerotte (and the hundreds more like them) but continue to argue about Elway.
You're right. I cherry picked Elway. It takes a cherry picker to catch one. We should be the best of friends.
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:35 am
by SirSmizzy
Redskin in Canada wrote:SirSmizzy wrote:Delusional. We can't afford him? Why are we cutting everybody ? To fit him under the cap. Ive got a candy bar for you. Go somehwere and eat it.
Missy,
So, if he is traded because you can not and will not afford him, we get YOU to swallow all of that bar in your mouth, Right?
You and the whole world know that this franchise tag was applied with no other purpose but to retain him while getting something of value in return. While nobody can claim that the move is ill-advised, the motive is transparent to EVERYBODY.
Abe is being displayed for the best trade value he can attract. Good luck on your first-year reconstruction process (sarcasm)
NY Jets are the new Bungles of the NFL.
Oh I never said we were keeping Abe...He will be traded. but saying we can't afford him means he will walk to wherever he wants. We will get something in retuen for him.
Poke all you want. I don't bite.
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:41 am
by SkinsBigtime
crazyhorse1 wrote:By leaving him on the bench, Gibbs threw away a chance to go to the SB. If he puts Patrick on the bench or trades him this years, Gibbs may be putting the Skins in last place in the division.
Are you being serious?
You have GOT to be kidding me. . .
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:43 am
by Scottskins
box? why does that name sound familiar?
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:18 am
by Steve Spurrier III
crazyhorse1 wrote:You're right. I cherry picked Elway. It takes a cherry picker to catch one. We should be the best of friends.
I wasn't the one who came up with the Batch/Frerotte argument, so I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to.
But admitting that comparing Ramsey to Elway is ridiculous is good enough for me.
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:51 pm
by crazyhorse1
SkinsBigtime wrote:crazyhorse1 wrote:By leaving him on the bench, Gibbs threw away a chance to go to the SB. If he puts Patrick on the bench or trades him this years, Gibbs may be putting the Skins in last place in the division.
Are you being serious?
You have GOT to be kidding me. . .
Are you telling me that it wasn't obvious that an injured Brunell wasn't going to be putting up points on the board against Seattle. That was one of the most foregone conclusions I've ever seen in football. A joke. Seattle had eight men in the box to stop Portis.
All Gibbs had to do to get Seattle out of that defense was send Ramsey in the game.
You don't think Ramsey's likely to get the Skins three scores in a game? Check his record.
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:10 pm
by Steve Spurrier III
crazyhorse1 wrote:You don't think Ramsey's likely to get the Skins three scores in a game? Check his record.
In his 24 career starts, the Redskins have scored 21 or more points eight times, and six of those games came in the Spurrier years. Going by that record, it would not be likely.
Not that any of this relevant to Ramsey's value in the trade market.
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:12 pm
by PulpExposure
crazyhorse1 wrote:You're right. I cherry picked Elway. It takes a cherry picker to catch one. We should be the best of friends.
You are ridiculous. I picked Frerotte and Batch because I knew that they were average quarterbacks. And that's exactly what Ramsey has been. Average. I'll just go with QB rating, since I'm tired of posting stats you summarily dismiss.
Jeff Blake. 78 Career average. 76.2 his first year starting, 82.1 his second year starting. 80.3 his third.
Aaron Brooks. 79.7 Career average. 85.7 his first year starting. 76.4 his second. 80.1 his third.
Jay Fiedler. 77.1 career average. 74.5 his first full year starting. 80.3 the next. 85.2 the year after that.
Tim Rattay owns a 81.6 career average. TIM RATTAY. 96.6 his first year starting, 78.1 the next year. Both in San Fran, where he played with a demonstrably worse team than Ramsey has ever had.
I mean hell. Ty Detmer has a 74.7 QB rating. He's only started 9 or more games 2 seasons his entire career. 80.8 rating the first, 91.1 the second.
I mean...is this enough for you? These are solidly average to below average QBs, and in many ways he hasn't done as well as they have. And yes, it's early in his career, which is why I pointed out their early averages.
I remind you that Washington's OL led the league in allowing sacks during the Spurier years
If this is true, why did David Carr set NFL sack record in 2002 (with 76) and Houston QBs ate another 36 the next year? Skins were sacked 43 times in 2003, and 27 times in 2002. (43+27) 70 does not equal 112 (76 and 36). It's not even close. We might have felt we allowed a ton of sacks, but it wasn't anywhere close to worst in the NFL. I remind you that your reminder is false.
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:57 pm
by Redskin in Canada
SirSmizzy wrote:Oh I never said we were keeping Abe...He will be traded. but saying we can't afford him means he will walk to wherever he wants. We will get something in retuen for him.
You are trading him because you can not afford him at the tag price. You are trading him because he does not want to play for your team.
All I am saying is why can they all not get along?
I argue that the Jets -should- keep him with ALL of his cap space and disgruntled play. God knows he might even get "healthy" and play a couple of games for you next season (maybe not at the end of the season though). Maybe things can be worked out and everybody can be happy. I would be. (sarcasm)
Long live the Green Bungles from NY!
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:50 pm
by skinsfan#33
Steve Spurrier III wrote:crazyhorse1 wrote:Coming up with 2 examples like Batches and Ferotte is the definition of cherry picking.
But coming up with the lone example of Elway is not? You can't just dismiss examples like Batch and Frerotte (and the hundreds more like them) but continue to argue about Elway.
How about comparing Ramsey's first three years to the first three years of the last three HOF QBs; Aikman, Young, Moon.
Aikman 31 TDs/46 INTs, TDs/game(g) .82, INTs/g 1.2, Yrds/g 186.4, comp%
58.3
Young 21 TDs/21 INTs, TDs/game(g)
.78, INTs/g
.78, Yrds/g
140.3, comp%
53.2
Moon 40 TDs/59 INTs, TDs/game(g) .89, INTs/g 1.3, Yrds/g
211.1, comp% 54.4
Ramsey 33 TDs/28 INTs, TDs/game(g)
1.1, INTs/g .85, Yrds/g 179, comp% 55.7
I am not saying Ramsey is a future HOFer, but what I am saying is thet very few QBs do very well their first three years. So now we have four HOF QBs that Ramsey's first three years compares well to. I didn't include Ramsey's fourth year because Gibbs benched him just because he felt more comfortable with Brunnel, not because of the way Ramsey played.
Ramsey wasn't last in any category and in fact he had the best TD/g ratio and the second best INT/g ratio, so that gave him the best TD/INT ratio. I put in bold the best and underlined the worst. Steve Young was actually the worst in thre categories.
The jury has far from reached a verdict on Ramsey. Based on how he compares to the last four HOF QBs, the facts are, given the right situation he COULD develope into a HOF QB. The facts certainly don't disprove that hypothesis.
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:27 pm
by box
Numbers dont mean JACK! Why do you think all these other guys kept playing past 3 yrs? How about intangibles like leadership, game management, heart, desire? Need i go on? Big Ben got them, and not the numbers but he has a ring cause of all the things except the NUMBERS!!!!! Please, been watching ball a long time, and Pram just dont have IT
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:43 pm
by sch1977
crazyhorse1 wrote:SkinsBigtime wrote:crazyhorse1 wrote:By leaving him on the bench, Gibbs threw away a chance to go to the SB. If he puts Patrick on the bench or trades him this years, Gibbs may be putting the Skins in last place in the division.
Are you being serious?
You have GOT to be kidding me. . .
Are you telling me that it wasn't obvious that an injured Brunell wasn't going to be putting up points on the board against Seattle. That was one of the most foregone conclusions I've ever seen in football. A joke. Seattle had eight men in the box to stop Portis.
All Gibbs had to do to get Seattle out of that defense was send Ramsey in the game.
You don't think Ramsey's likely to get the Skins three scores in a game? Check his record.
With 8 men constantly in the box, Ramsey would have been on his arse all game.
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:44 pm
by air_hog
This deal won't happen.
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:20 am
by runbillo
Why not trade Lavar for Abe? 2 high priced players that have been hurt and not played a full season in 2 years.
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:23 am
by 1niksder
runbillo wrote:Why not trade Lavar for Abe? 2 high priced players that have been hurt and not played a full season in 2 years.
Abe played the whole year
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:32 am
by hkHog
OK, lets get back on topic shall we:
Monday, February 27, 2006
Sources say Jets talking Abraham deals at combine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com
Upset at having been tagged as a franchise player for a second straight year, New York Jets defensive end John Abraham told the New York Post over the weekend that he has "overstayed [his] welcome" with the club and that "it's time to move on."
Team officials apparently agree.
Multiple league sources said that the Jets have been offering Abraham in trade talks during the NFL scouting combine in Indianapolis, and have discussed potential scenarios with a number of teams. It is believed that the talks have not moved to the substantive stage with any suitors and that a deal is not imminent, but that the Jets' intention remains to deal Abraham, probably for a package of draft choices.
Among the several teams with whom the Jets have spoken in recent days are the Washington Redskins and the Denver Broncos.
In a move that had been anticipated, the Jets last week designated Abraham a franchise player, essentially making him a one-year qualifying offer of $8.33 million, but also severely limiting his mobility in free agency. New York used the franchise tag a year ago, as well, to retain Abraham, and he missed all the offseason programs and training camp before signing the one-year deal, worth $6.66 million just days before the start of the season.
The team's rationale in using the franchise restriction this year, however, seems aimed at trying to fetch something in return for Abraham, who prefers a long-term contract. In a statement, new Jets general manager Mike Tannenbaum said last week that applying the franchise tag to Abraham "speaks volumes about what type of player we feel he is." That has not kept the Jets, though, from speaking to other teams about the six-year veteran and three-time Pro Bowl performer.
It is not known what the Jets are seeking in return for Abraham, but any trade would certainly have to include a first-round draft choice. Abraham might be able to force the hand of the cap-strapped Jets by signing the qualifying offer, which would guarantee the money. The $8.33 million already counts against the New York cap for 2006, but guaranteeing the money might be a tough swallow for a club facing a major overhaul because of a debilitating cap overage.
Without specifically citing Abraham, Denver defensive coordinator Larry Coyer allowed at the combine that the Broncos hope to add a pass-rusher in the offseason. Despite statistically ranking No. 15 in total defense in 2005, the Broncos were 29th in defense versus the pass, and a big part of that was that Denver generated just 28 sacks, third fewest in the league. No Broncos defender had more than four sacks in 2005.
"I know this about [head coach] Mike Shanahan," said Coyer. "There will be a move."
Washington, which was said to be enamored with Abraham a year ago, also needs a consistent upfield pass-rush threat. Although the Redskins had 35 sacks in 2005, the lack of a pass rusher means that inventive defensive coordinator Gregg Williams has to work that much harder to create sack opportunities. The only Redskins defensive lineman with more than four sacks last season was end Phillip Daniels, but six of his eight sacks came in the final three games, including a four-sack performance.
One problem shared by both Denver and Washington is the state of their respective salary caps. Both teams are squeezed by the spending limit and, like other franchises around the league, are reluctant to make any kind of move until the NFL's collective bargaining issues are resolved. Plus, since he is not under contract, Abraham cannot be dealt until he either signs the one-year qualifying offer or a long-term contract.
Termed by Cleveland Browns coach Romeo Crennel as "head and shoulders" above any pass rusher available this offseason, Abraham certainly is a proven sack man. One of the Jets' four first-round selections in the 2000 draft, Abraham has consistently been among the top pass rushers in the NFL, when healthy. Limited to just 19 appearances in 2003-2004 because of injuries, Abraham played in all 16 games for the Jets in 2005, only the third time in six years he has played a full schedule.
He registered 67 tackles, 10½ sacks, six forced fumbles, one recovery and two passes defensed. For his career, the former South Carolina star has 328 tackles, 53½ sacks, 18 forced fumbles, five recoveries and eight pass deflections in 73 games. Players of his ilk don't often become available in the league, but the relationship between Abraham and Jets officials may have reached the point where a trade would be the best scenario for both parties.
Well, we don't have a first rounder so who knows what will happen?