The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Deadskins wrote:We don't necessarily know that. After the reinjury, early in the game, he may still have required off-season surgery. There is no way of knowing what might have been had he been pulled at that point.

If he had been pulled at the half, the coaches have time to adjust the game for Kirk. Kirk is then given time to adjust to the game and get into a rhythm. Regardless if RGIII had destroyed the knee at that point, the team still would have had a legit chance to continue in the playoffs.

RGIII not leaving the game until he completely destroyed the knee removed any chance. It was obvious to anyone watching that he was done and the offense was stalled.

I totally agree. I was commenting on his being able to help us with OTAs this year.

Deadskins wrote:I totally agree. I was commenting on his being able to help us with OTAs this year.

Great point and I agree, sorry for the mix up. I think it's safe to assume that if he had been pulled, even if it did require surgery it wouldn't have been as invasive. Maybe he misses OTA's but he'd be there for camp. Something like that.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Post-game, ruined the existing knee and setback his other knee cus they need parts for the reconstruction.

They said it was strained, but there is speculation that the injury was more serious all along, and might have still required off-season surgery. As for the other knee, I thought I read that the part that was borrowed regenerates with time, so that after a year or so, it's completely healed (and could be borrowed again ).

Deadskins wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Post-game, ruined the existing knee and setback his other knee cus they need parts for the reconstruction.

They said it was strained, but there is speculation that the injury was more serious all along, and might have still required off-season surgery. As for the other knee, I thought I read that the part that was borrowed regenerates with time, so that after a year or so, it's completely healed (and could be borrowed again ).

Wow, didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Post-game, ruined the existing knee and setback his other knee cus they need parts for the reconstruction.

They said it was strained, but there is speculation that the injury was more serious all along, and might have still required off-season surgery. As for the other knee, I thought I read that the part that was borrowed regenerates with time, so that after a year or so, it's completely healed (and could be borrowed again ).

Wow, didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

That's news to me, too. Good news, mind you.

I agree that he should have come out at the half. I also think that if he had, we win that game.

I also think that Griffin is one of the smartest and gutsiest players I've heard about and certainly that have played for our team. It is my belief (supported not one real shred of evidence other than anecdotal) that the biggest rehab and deepest improvement that will result from what he is dealing with now, will be his maturation when it comes to protecting himself. Above all else, I fully expect to see a better developed sense of when to push for that extra inch and when not to. Personally, I sense that that end result of the injury will be that this growth takes place exponentially faster than it otherwise would have. Its one thing to learn by listening, its another to learn by suffering the consequences of not having learned something in the first place.

I heard the same thing about the regeneration
PLUS
there has been some amazing information about how helpful, the use of stems cells have been with the recovery/rehab from these operations


IMO the physical part of it is not as much of a concern as the mental ...

RG3 has to KNOW that he (and we) cannot afford to have him making the kind of mistakes in judgement that he made on the field at the end of last season

HE HAS TO LEARN TO GET DOWN SOONER - the defensive players are going to be even more aggressive this season - we all know that the right knee will be targeted

even 'late' defensive hits will be 'encouraged' if they can impede his playing ability

the physical nature of the game is part of the game - RG3 (as CLL is saying) REALLY needs to change his ways - we cannot afford this loss of time and nether can he

emoses14 wrote:I agree that he should have come out at the half. I also think that if he had, we win that game.

Oh! I think so too! We were still up 14-0 weren't we? Our offense tired the defense out, they were exhausted from the three and outs. I'm sure that Kirk could have gotten us another 7 points and some consistent drives to give the defense a breather.

The game essentially ended for us when RGIII got hurt.

emoses14 wrote:He is a kid. A great kid, but just a kid. Because of how great a person, not a player, but a person, he appears to be, I simply think it highly likely that this entire exercise results in a meteoric elevation in his game.

And I think his general level of maturity causes us to forget that he's just a kid sometimes. I'm prolly guilty of that. All young QB's hold the ball too long, but he just payed a higher price than most do for it.

SkinsJock wrote:HE HAS TO LEARN TO GET DOWN SOONER

This is the most important thing, I'm glad you said it. It's not just getting down, but it's getting down EARLY!!!! Even in his slides, he's waiting too long to do it. Those extra two yards aren't worth it.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:HE HAS TO LEARN TO GET DOWN SOONER

This is the most important thing, I'm glad you said it. It's not just getting down, but it's getting down EARLY!!!! Even in his slides, he's waiting too long to do it. Those extra two yards aren't worth it.

+ A Superbowl win when he learns that.

Yeah, there's no argument there.

Deadskins wrote:

riggofan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:in another thread, Chris points to a slightly different point "where would we be, IF RG3 had taken himself out of the game ... " - he'd be available to help with the OTAs and the 'new' offense that I think we're going to see .. AND .. we would not be hoping that he will be ready to play on opening day - we might even have won that game ....

Is this even true? No doubt RGIII worsened the injury by staying in, but it seems pretty clear that his knee was damaged even before the game. This is admittedly just a guess on my part, but I would bet he was facing some kind of off-season surgery either way.

Count me in the RGIII optimists camp though on his bouncing back.

I guess I should have read all the new posts before responding to SJ, because I thought the exact same thing. I'm sure he will bounce back, but like CLL, I'm worried about a reversion to instinctive behavior in the heat of battle when it comes to protecting himself.

I don't know man that might pan out in our favor. Its a fine line however, between losing instinctive behavior and becoming more cautious.

Given what we've seen, I think he's too stubborn/fearless to be hindered, but hopefully whatever hindered nature he incurs will merely be a more cautious RG3.

You ever see his high school highlight reel on youtube? The one I saw had him looking a lot more like a pocket passer...looked awesome (he still did some runs, just a lot less...ironically, his runs appeared less predictable and were more fruitful). I think that's our worst case scenario for RG3, but I just don't see him not running. Cutting back some hopefully.

CLL nailed it about the effectiveness of our line, they're rock solid on the run, have some leaks on pass protection. We've seen what RG3 can do as a scrambler in the pocket and throwing on the run. In fact, that was the biggest buzz I heard about him in the beginning; how accurate he could throw running full speed.

Point is, our running game will still be effective even with a reduced/limited read option. Its annoying to hear people talk about Morris just an average RB; how many times did we see four guys struggling to bring him down? Dude has powerful legs.

RGIII has to learn that there is such a thing as being rash — that wanting to go all out isn't always brave. Bravery requires a bit of wisdom, knowing what's worth risking yourself for and what isn't. A classic litmus test on the football field is whether your staying in hurts rather than helps the team. It was obvious in the Seattle game that was the case, and a mature player would have stayed on the sidelines. It's not bravery or dedication to pretend you aren't hurt when your injury hurts the team.

I don't have much blame for RGIII on that account, though, as part of our coaches/doctors job is to step in and help make that assessment.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

riggofan wrote:No doubt RGIII worsened the injury by staying in, but it seems pretty clear that his knee was damaged even before the game.

Worsened, is putting it lightly lol. Pre-game, we were still dealing with a strained ligament. Post-game, ruined the existing knee and setback his other knee cus they need parts for the reconstruction. Big difference.

There's definitely a market for this and I know the technology already exists, but Andrews should find a better way to provide artificial knee ligaments.

With all the ligament injuries I would have thought a more durable, career extending way to do this. Unless I missed the memo...the biggest issue was plastic breakdown and "creep" (assuming they mean the plastic stretching over time).

I know that I've been preaching a bit as far as what we're going to see from RG3 ....

THE MOST IMPORTANT evidence will be his showing everybody that he's learned that the 'extra yards' and/or added time to 'make a play' are just not worth it

I have a lot of faith in this kid's ability to learn from his mistakes - physically he should be good to go - his decision making needs to change


Both RG3 and the Redskins need him on the field and able to do his thing - the only way that happens is for him to play his game BUT NOT TAKE unnecessary risks

Deadskins wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Post-game, ruined the existing knee and setback his other knee cus they need parts for the reconstruction.

They said it was strained, but there is speculation that the injury was more serious all along, and might have still required off-season surgery. As for the other knee, I thought I read that the part that was borrowed regenerates with time, so that after a year or so, it's completely healed (and could be borrowed again ).

Say what???!!! I hope so!! Never heard of that...that would change a lot of negative outlooks!!!

Irn-Bru wrote:RGIII has to learn that there is such a thing as being rash — that wanting to go all out isn't always brave. Bravery requires a bit of wisdom, knowing what's worth risking yourself for and what isn't. A classic litmus test on the football field is whether your staying in hurts rather than helps the team. It was obvious in the Seattle game that was the case, and a mature player would have stayed on the sidelines. It's not bravery or dedication to pretend you aren't hurt when your injury hurts the team.

I don't have much blame for RGIII on that account, though, as part of our coaches/doctors job is to step in and help make that assessment.

+1

It was a failure across the board.

HTTRRG3ALMO wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

riggofan wrote:No doubt RGIII worsened the injury by staying in, but it seems pretty clear that his knee was damaged even before the game.

Worsened, is putting it lightly lol. Pre-game, we were still dealing with a strained ligament. Post-game, ruined the existing knee and setback his other knee cus they need parts for the reconstruction. Big difference.

There's definitely a market for this and I know the technology already exists, but Andrews should find a better way to provide artificial knee ligaments.

With all the ligament injuries I would have thought a more durable, career extending way to do this. Unless I missed the memo...the biggest issue was plastic breakdown and "creep" (assuming they mean the plastic stretching over time).

Having been through a similar surgery but with part of my hamstring (not a great option for Olympic caliber speed) , I see the use of his healthy legs patella as a positive. On top of the whole regeneration thing it forces him to rehab both legs. Not favoring one so much that it becomes stronger then the other- what happened with me. Rehabbing both legs should equate to a stronger healthier base for RGiii and may very well spell improved play and durability. Many see this sx as a negative, or a set back, where Im hopeful its a blessing in disguise. It's my assumption that the sx down at Baylor was a. Not as advanced as this one b. Didn't have the same millions upon millions of endorsing to provide the absolute best rehab c. May have been a rushed recovery (according to some articles his knee wasn't 100% on day 1- possibly stretched it rehabbing?) And d. Probably came back to soon, as young confident men often do. This surgery has the best of the best, and the progression as closely monitored as is possible. It's my belief that this knee is/will be an upgrade over the knee we drafted..... #wishfulthinking

Have some links about tendons, etc regenerating. Granted one of these is from yahoo answers but what she said about there not being enough blood getting to the ligaments sparked a thought...Andrews has been injecting stem cell which speeds up/enable rejuvenation:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080921131938AAhso2w

Short article in reference to stem cell and regeneration:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19539988

Another reference:
http://www.wisegeek.org/how-do-doctors-repair-torn-ligaments.htm

Older article, but still very good:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/health/20iht-stem.4970019.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Good luck, don't have the patience to read all through this one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3255293/

Sorry for all the posts/links. Have some more positive news

Shanahan says RG3 needs to learn to slide (obviously)

Also, in the article:
"Shanahan said that the read-option forces defensive linemen to read and react and slows down their rush.

'The option will help a quarterback stay healthy,' Shanahan said."

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... -to-slide/

We had this pegged in the pre-season in the "Where Can RGIII Improve" thread:

DarthMonk wrote:

Red_One43 wrote:This is and isn't my biggest concern with RGIII: Kyle!!!

The above was my first thought but as for RGIII himself:

He needs to know when to be daring. That's probably not in the 1st qtr. of the 1st game when he can take a risk and give us 2nd and 2 instead of 2nd and 8 near midfield. He might need to be lucky early until he learns when to be daring.

Vick still doesn't know.

DarthMonk

Looks like we used him recklessly and he did the same with himself.

Fingers crossed. Guy is ridiculously good.

The ONLY thing similar about Vick and Griffin is that they are both QBs - is there any doubt that one has a very high IQ and the other does NOT come even close


I do not have any doubt that RG3 is going to be a lot wiser about playing the QB position this season - NO DOUBT

I also think that there is going to be a lot stronger control on what he does from Mike - I doubt he gets much leeway after what happened


this is only a minor setback - we can still anticipate seeing #10 leading the B&G back to the NFC East title ... and maybe more

In my books a massive knee surgery such as this could possibly become a major setback. However, if anyone can come back stronger than ever it would be RG3. After his surgery at Baylor his accuracy improved immensely. He spent all that time playing catch with his Dad. He also took fewer chances after the injury. What ha has got to learn is to slide earlier. The pros are faster and stronger and you have to adjust. Hopefully he will.

On NFL AM, Fred Davis talked about he and RGIII rehab together at Redskins Park and that Robert "does all the drills and looks normal." He said he doesn't even look like he had surgery.

The Hogster wrote:On NFL AM, Fred Davis talked about he and RGIII rehab together at Redskins Park and that Robert "does all the drills and looks normal." He said he doesn't even look like he had surgery.

That's awesome news on many levels. However, I REALLY hope that there are at least 10 other sets of eyes not belonging to Fred Davis watching our Franchise go through drills and rehab (I'm sure there are ).

For what its worth, I also like that Fred sounds so amazed/encouraged about RGIII because I still think that will be a large factor in his deciding to sign here.

emoses14 wrote:

The Hogster wrote:On NFL AM, Fred Davis talked about he and RGIII rehab together at Redskins Park and that Robert "does all the drills and looks normal."
He said he doesn't even look like he had surgery.

I REALLY hope that there are at least 10 other sets of eyes not belonging to Fred Davis watching our Franchise go through drills and rehab ...

after what happened .. i'm sure that everyone from Mike down ... and I mean everybody, is keeping close tabs on everything to do with RG3
RG3 is not getting the benefit of the doubt about how he 'says' he feels ..OR how he 'feels' his rehab is progressing ...
that boy is on a VERY short leash during this whole deal

I imagine he's going to get a lot of work soon on the various forms of sliding until he perfects it - just like everything else he does

For what its worth, I also like that Fred sounds so amazed/encouraged about RGIII because I still think that will be a large factor in his deciding to sign here.

Fred's best choice financially is to sign a 1 year deal and make sure that he get's a great deal next time up - IMHO of course

The Hogster wrote:On NFL AM, Fred Davis talked about he and RGIII rehab together at Redskins Park and that Robert "does all the drills and looks normal." He said he doesn't even look like he had surgery.

The man is an incredibly hard worker. Over time, he's going to prove the doubters wrong, because he's just going to outwork everyone else.

Irn-Bru wrote:

The Hogster wrote:On NFL AM, Fred Davis talked about he and RGIII rehab together at Redskins Park and that Robert "does all the drills and looks normal." He said he doesn't even look like he had surgery.

The man is an incredibly hard worker. Over time, he's going to prove the doubters wrong, because he's just going to outwork everyone else.

I will admit that trait is part of the reason that I think that RG3 will find a way to be as good as he can be - the kid is an unusually gifted athlete with incredible desire and drive

I also think that he's very smart and will be playing with a lot better understanding of what is better for both himself and the team

PLUS

He's going to be playing for a HC that will not let him do what he tried to get away with last season - NOT EVEN CLOSE