The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

VetSkinsFan wrote:

John Manfreda wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

John Manfreda wrote:once again your ignoring the facts.

What are you ten? Your resulting to childish name calling because you know I have you nailed and you can't defend Campbell anymore because he sucks. I am going to head out, when you guys are resulting to this, and saying Todd Collins is our saviour, than it shows that you can't back up any assessment with facts, and that it shows you all are wrong and, idiotic with dumb theories that just don't workout in reality.

So, once again, as it's been pointed out NUMEROUS times...just b/c TC won four games and then blew it in the playoffs, he's the savior? The FACT is that he was in that last system 10 years. This is new, just like it is for JC and Colt. There's no way you can guarantee that Collins would have done better? Your fact is starting four whole games in a 10 year sample period? You're telling me that you know better than countless HC/FO/Team Pres/hundred of scouts? Is that REALLY what you're saying?

I don't think that John is saying he is our savior. Those were words put into his mouth (and in maybe the most immature way -- by "staff" no less). Placing words into others mouths' is something (and for good reason) the "staff" here tends to look down upon, but I guess it is unnecessary to heed their own instruction....not you, though, vet --- I tend to bunch the staff together, so I cannot say which names --- I think fios and countertrey have made those distinctions to me in my one month stay here but I may be mistaken. If I am mistaken, I apologize to fios and countertrey for that.

While I agree that you cannot guarantee TC or Colt would have done a better job, it is fairly obvious that they couldn't have done any worse.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

John Manfreda wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

John Manfreda wrote:once again your ignoring the facts.

What are you ten? Your resulting to childish name calling because you know I have you nailed and you can't defend Campbell anymore because he sucks. I am going to head out, when you guys are resulting to this, and saying Todd Collins is our saviour, than it shows that you can't back up any assessment with facts, and that it shows you all are wrong and, idiotic with dumb theories that just don't workout in reality.

So, once again, as it's been pointed out NUMEROUS times...just b/c TC won four games and then blew it in the playoffs, he's the savior? The FACT is that he was in that last system 10 years. This is new, just like it is for JC and Colt. There's no way you can guarantee that Collins would have done better? Your fact is starting four whole games in a 10 year sample period? You're telling me that you know better than countless HC/FO/Team Pres/hundred of scouts? Is that REALLY what you're saying?

I don't think TC is the saviour for THIS offense.

But TC did show that our offensive line and WR's are better than they appear to be while under Jason's command. To me, thats undeniable.

I find it funny that for Jason, we blame the line, the coaches, the wr's, the refs, the wind, gravity, magnetism, solar flares and knomes on his issues. But when it comes to that SEA game, Todd just blew it? C'mon now.... U know he didn't just blow that on his own. I'd give that crown to garbage man Swishy.

YES. YES. YES.

The double standard for JC and against TC is unbelievable on this board. It is actually quite nosiating.

There's a reason John's getting piled on.

markshark84 wrote:I don't think that John is saying he is our savior. Those were words put into his mouth (and in maybe the most immature way -- by "staff" no less).

While I agree that you cannot guarantee TC or Colt would have done a better job, it is fairly obvious that they couldn't have done any worse.

That's fine to say. That's your opinion, and I understand it. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I also don't think it's meritless.

However, John Manfreda said something completely different:

John Manfreda wrote:calling JC an okay Qb is overstatement, he is horrible. He is the wrost Qb we have had since Heath Shuler.

And after I posted a list of some of the trash QBs we've had (Danny Wuerrfle, Tony Banks, etc.), he responded:

John Manfreda wrote:He has done far more damage to our organization than any of those Qb's that you have just named. Yes he is the wrost Qb we have had based on the damage done to our organization since Heath Shuler.

JC is the worst QB the Redskins have had since Shuler, and has "damaged" the organization.

And then he posted afterwards that we couldn't respond to him because he was posting "facts."

You post drivel like the above, and you will get called out on it. And please, feel free to call me, likewise.

PulpExposure wrote:There's a reason John's getting piled on.

markshark84 wrote:I don't think that John is saying he is our savior. Those were words put into his mouth (and in maybe the most immature way -- by "staff" no less).

While I agree that you cannot guarantee TC or Colt would have done a better job, it is fairly obvious that they couldn't have done any worse.

That's fine to say. That's your opinion, and I understand it. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I also don't think it's meritless.

However, John Manfreda said something completely different:

John Manfreda wrote:calling JC an okay Qb is overstatement, he is horrible. He is the wrost Qb we have had since Heath Shuler.

And after I posted a list of some of the trash QBs we've had (Danny Wuerrfle, Tony Banks, etc.), he responded:

John Manfreda wrote:He has done far more damage to our organization than any of those Qb's that you have just named. Yes he is the wrost Qb we have had based on the damage done to our organization since Heath Shuler.

JC is the worst QB the Redskins have had since Shuler, and has "damaged" the organization.

And then he posted afterwards that we couldn't respond to him because he was posting "facts."

You post drivel like the above, and you will get called out on it. And please, feel free to call me, likewise.

I understand what you are saying here. I do, however, John may have some validity on the second part of the post (while I do not agree with the first) if he meant that he has hurt the organization because: JC was a first round draft pick that was a flop (which could have been used on another need), he has been a four year project and people continue to say he "needs" even more time to develop (after 4 GD years), and he has paid zero dividends as a player up to this point. We have been to the playoffs twice since he has been here; neither time has he been the starter who got us there.

All in all, we used a first round draft pick on him and seen no dividends. On all the others, since Shuler (and why I believe there was the reference --- especially because Shuler's tenure was not as long as JCs), we have gotten them through free agency or as low draft picks and did not sacraficed anything to get them. But yes, the others were worse (except J. George is debatable).

Now John may not have said what I did in my post and quite frankly I am not sure he meant those things because I am not a mind reader, but I can see where he is coming from if he meant what I stated (obviously).

Much of the "staff" that "loves" JC is not doing that. What I'm trying to say is that it's not all JC's fault. Last year, when TC was our savior of our season, we had an o-line that, for the 1st time that year, had the same 5 guys starting for a few consecutive games. That is HUGE. The o-line has to be in sync or it's a disaster. They have to "know" what one another is doing on a subconscious level, which you cannot learn in a matter of days when you are forced to rotate guys out WEEKLY.

AM I saying TC and JC had NO influence on the outcome of the games? NO.

Am I saying that TC, being a 10 year study of an offense, had an edge of JC? YES.

Am I saying JC's NOT at fault, at least partially, for this year? NO, but it's ludicrous to suggest that a career back-up (under the same O-Coord for a decade, no less) is any better in a new system than anyone else based on performance in an old system is naive at best.

BTW, read back thru the last couple of pages, and John IS in fact supporting TC over JC, saying TC WOULD HAVE WON THE DIVISION IF STARTING last year.

markshark84 wrote:All in all, we used a first round draft pick on him and seen no dividends. On all the others, since Shuler (and why I believe there was the reference --- especially because Shuler's tenure was not as long as JCs), we have gotten them through free agency or as low draft picks and did not sacraficed anything to get them. But yes, the others were worse (except J. George is debatable).

We have spent a first on Campbell, Ramsey, and Brad Johnson. Of the three, Campbell has played the most games as a Redskin. Johnson had the best season (10-6, going to the playoffs), but we traded a 1st and 3rd for essentially a 2 year rental of a 32 year old QB.

As for Ramsey, Campbell's had a more successful redskins career (20 starts, 59.9% completions, 6942 yards, 34 TDs, 23 INTs, 20 fumbles) than Ramsey (24 starts, 55.7% completions, 5649 yards, 34 TDs, 29 INTs, 25 fumbles). Campbell has more completion percentage, more yards, same TDs, less INTs and less fumbles...in less games. Ramsey was, by all measurements, more of a bust than Campbell.

Has Campbell turned into a great QB. Not by a long shot. But it's completely disingenious to pretend he's the only guy who cost us a 1st round pick.

Look, when it comes to Jason I think everything will work itself out...by that I mean we've haven't giving him a truckload of money, he's coming up on the last year of his contract...I say don't give him a new deal he has not done enough to even ask...he gets a second year in the same system, that will give everyone full 32 games to decide if we want to move forward with him or move in another direction. Doesn't that seem fair to all involved??

VetSkinsFan wrote:Much of the "staff" that "loves" JC is not doing that. What I'm trying to say is that it's not all JC's fault. Last year, when TC was our savior of our season, we had an o-line that, for the 1st time that year, had the same 5 guys starting for a few consecutive games. That is HUGE. The o-line has to be in sync or it's a disaster. They have to "know" what one another is doing on a subconscious level, which you cannot learn in a matter of days when you are forced to rotate guys out WEEKLY.

AM I saying TC and JC had NO influence on the outcome of the games? NO.

Am I saying that TC, being a 10 year study of an offense, had an edge of JC? YES.

Am I saying JC's NOT at fault, at least partially, for this year? NO, but it's ludicrous to suggest that a career back-up (under the same O-Coord for a decade, no less) is any better in a new system than anyone else based on performance in an old system is naive at best.

BTW, read back thru the last couple of pages, and John IS in fact supporting TC over JC, saying TC WOULD HAVE WON THE DIVISION IF STARTING last year.

agree with what you are saying for the most part. I do not however, agree with the amount of blame you place on JC. I also believe that TC or Colt could have done just as well this year as JC based on the fact that I believe any QB coudl have done just as well as JC except for a few horrendous QBs.

Also for John's statement: I don't think that anyone can really say with certainty that he is incorrect. The skins did go 4-0 with TC. They played good teams in that 4-0 stretch. I don't think you can say it is that crazy, but then again it isn't something that can be easily inferred. Therefore, I don't see how someone can make the assertion that it is this insanely crazy idea, while at the same time say the statement with certainty of it occuring.

DEHog wrote:Look, when it comes to Jason I think everything will work itself out...by that I mean we've haven't giving him a truckload of money, he's coming up on the last year of his contract...I say don't give him a new deal he has not done enough to even ask...he gets a second year in the same system, that will give everyone full 32 games to decide if we want to move forward with him or move in another direction. Doesn't that seem fair to all involved??

With 5 months of this offense under his belt, there's been no improvement in the offensive passing game, though. The offense has actually lost a step (or 2) when CP started getting dinged up. The beginning of the year was on CP's shoulders. What progress warrants yet ANOTHER year? There's been NO progress throughout the year.

PulpExposure wrote:

markshark84 wrote:All in all, we used a first round draft pick on him and seen no dividends. On all the others, since Shuler (and why I believe there was the reference --- especially because Shuler's tenure was not as long as JCs), we have gotten them through free agency or as low draft picks and did not sacraficed anything to get them. But yes, the others were worse (except J. George is debatable).

We have spent a first on Campbell, Ramsey, and Brad Johnson. Of the three, Campbell has played the most games as a Redskin. Johnson had the best season (10-6, going to the playoffs), but we traded a 1st and 3rd for essentially a 2 year rental of a 32 year old QB.

As for Ramsey, Campbell's had a more successful redskins career (20 starts, 59.9% completions, 6942 yards, 34 TDs, 23 INTs, 20 fumbles) than Ramsey (24 starts, 55.7% completions, 5649 yards, 34 TDs, 29 INTs, 25 fumbles). Campbell has more completion percentage, more yards, same TDs, less INTs and less fumbles...in less games. Ramsey was, by all measurements, more of a bust than Campbell.

Has Campbell turned into a great QB. Not by a long shot. But it's completely disingenious to pretend he's the only guy who cost us a 1st round pick.

Absolutely valid points, but at the same time the organization (and fans) did not give Ramsey quite the chances we are giving JC. I compare Ramsey and JC a lot during games because they seem to be clones of one another (except JC is more moble). But Ramsey's situation was vastly different than JCs currently is. Ramsey hasn't been hand-held like JC has been. After four years of Ramsey and two different coaches (one of which didn't have a pro style offense of any nature and was exposed by the pre-season of his first year), people were not asking for another year of "development" (he wasn't even given 4 years). Ramsey was only given 2 years to prove himself (and I don't count the final year as the decision to get rid of him had already been made) --- far less than what the apologists are giving JC.

I disagree with Johnson only because he lead us to our last division championship and longest playoff run. He paid dividends. JC and Ramsey provided us nothing. Now, I agree with you that the cost was substantial, but we cannot say that he set us back any because he did at least get us to the post season.

I agree that Ramsey got a raw deal. The guy could've been a decent QB, but by the time we were done with him, he was so beat up that I think he was gun-shy.

He hasn't exactly gone off to a stellar career anywhere else.

The fact is that Campbell's numbers have improved this year compared to last.

His completion percentage and QB rating has climbed and his turnover numbers have declined. That's a good thing.

I don't blame him solely for all of our offensive woes, but he is certainly a contributer.

You know what I realized about him. He doesn't improv well. If a play breaks down, he doesn't find a way to make it work. Sure, he occasionally pulls the ball down and runs with it, but you see the great ones somehow find an open guy.

I don't think you'll find a staffer on this board who is ready to annoint Campbell as our QB of the future, but most of us will defend unfair, overly harsh assements about him.

Jason Campbell is the 17th rated QB in the league. That's not necessarily great, but it's also not the worst by far. Here are some people that he is rated higher than, along with their team records:

18th Brett Favre, Jets, 9-6
20th Jake Delhomme, Panthers, 11-4
21st Ben Roethlisberger, Steelers, 11-4
22nd Kerry Collins, Titans, 13-2
24th Joe Flacco, 10-5

So yeah, it's hard to say that he is entirely to blame, or that he is "the worst QB ever" when the stats don't support that.

Skinsfan55 wrote:I think we're gonna see next season when Jason Campbell finally has a second consecutive season in the same system that he'll be a very good player.

He had a second consecutive season 2006-2007 under Saunders and got worse. His scoring stats during his first 7 games in 2006 were much better than his13 games in 2007. And, he had a decent first 5 games this year and has gotten progressively worse. This is a pattern, and there is no evidence to suggest that familiarity with an offense has anything whatsoever to do with Jason Campbell's performance.

The dirt balls he was throwing Sunday has nothing to do with "a system", and he was getting time to throw and threw some real stinkers.

And don't tell me about dropped passes. Every team has dropped passes. In the case of the Redskin receivers, some of the drops could be because they're so darned surprised to see the ball.

There is no denying this....10 points a game is becoming a Redskin trademark under Campbell, and he IS the common denominator.

Mark, I understand your points, but I just hate when people spew hyperbole (the worst, the most damaging, etc.) when it's clearly not true.

There's just no way that Campbell is a worse QB than Danny Wuerffle or Tim Hasselbeck (remember the game with his 0.0 passer rating?)

It's one thing to say you don't think Campbell will succeed, or he's had his chances and he's not improving, etc. It's another to say what John is saying; when you conflate the two, it makes it appear as if you agree he's the worst since Shuler, etc. And I am almost 100% certain that you don't hold the same thoughts.

Bob 0119 wrote:I agree that Ramsey got a raw deal. The guy could've been a decent QB, but by the time we were done with him, he was so beat up that I think he was gun-shy.

Oh yeah, I completely think he got destroyed by Spurrier's looney blocking schemes. Block the middle blitz? Pshaw, why bother!

(watch Ramsey get piledriven by Roy Williams).

Just to throw some fuel on the fire, at least Ramsey got 2 years starting in the same system

PulpExposure wrote:Just to throw some fuel on the fire, at least Ramsey got 2 years starting in the same system

Dangit! I thought that said position instead of system.... I had a joke ready and lined up!

PulpExposure wrote:Mark, I understand your points, but I just hate when people spew hyperbole (the worst, the most damaging, etc.) when it's clearly not true.

There's just no way that Campbell is a worse QB than Danny Wuerffle or Tim Hasselbeck (remember the game with his 0.0 passer rating?)

It's one thing to say you don't think Campbell will succeed, or he's had his chances and he's not improving, etc. It's another to say what John is saying; when you conflate the two, it makes it appear as if you agree he's the worst since Shuler, etc. And I am almost 100% certain that you don't hold the same thoughts.

Bob 0119 wrote:I agree that Ramsey got a raw deal. The guy could've been a decent QB, but by the time we were done with him, he was so beat up that I think he was gun-shy.

Oh yeah, I completely think he got destroyed by Spurrier's looney blocking schemes. Block the middle blitz? Pshaw, why bother!

(watch Ramsey get piledriven by Roy Williams).

Just to throw some fuel on the fire, at least Ramsey got 2 years starting in the same system

No, I can agree with that.

But, I must say (and I am 100% sure you and everyone that reads this thread knows this) that I am not happy with JC as the QB and the excuses that are made for his poor, below average play. Now, is he the worst ever? No way.

Yeah, Ramsey got 2 years in the Spurrier offense, the fact he still has legs is a miracle.

PulpExposure wrote:

markshark84 wrote:All in all, we used a first round draft pick on him and seen no dividends. On all the others, since Shuler (and why I believe there was the reference --- especially because Shuler's tenure was not as long as JCs), we have gotten them through free agency or as low draft picks and did not sacraficed anything to get them. But yes, the others were worse (except J. George is debatable).

We have spent a first on Campbell, Ramsey, and Brad Johnson. Of the three, Campbell has played the most games as a Redskin. Johnson had the best season (10-6, going to the playoffs), but we traded a 1st and 3rd for essentially a 2 year rental of a 32 year old QB.

As for Ramsey, Campbell's had a more successful redskins career (20 starts, 59.9% completions, 6942 yards, 34 TDs, 23 INTs, 20 fumbles) than Ramsey (24 starts, 55.7% completions, 5649 yards, 34 TDs, 29 INTs, 25 fumbles). Campbell has more completion percentage, more yards, same TDs, less INTs and less fumbles...in less games. Ramsey was, by all measurements, more of a bust than Campbell.

Has Campbell turned into a great QB. Not by a long shot. But it's completely disingenious to pretend he's the only guy who cost us a 1st round pick.

Correction: if I'm not mistaken, didn't we spend 2 1st round picks on Campbell?

Additionally, where are you getting your stats from? Campbell has had 35 starts, and 34 TDs. His first 7 games he had 10 TD's, since then, he's had 24 TD in 28 games. whereas Ramsey threw 34 TD's in 24 starts.

Compare Campbell's numbers to Eli Manning......Manning has thrown 24 Td's in 2005, 24 in 2006, 23 in 2007, and 21 this year.

ANY WAY YOU SPIN IT, Campbell's scoring numbers are down right PATHETIC. Tyler Thigpen has better numbers. Matt Ryan (the Rookie has as many TD's this year as Campbell has had in the last 28 games!

I don't like the whole comparing quarterback ratings game. It just doesn't tell the whole story. The reason Campbell doesn't throw picks and therefore has a fairly decent quarterback rating is because he doesn't throw the ball downfield. He also doesn't take any chances, which this has already been brought up in this forum. I mean it is easy to have a good completion percentage when you just throw screens the whole time ha ha ha. Thats just funny to even consider that. I don't think he has had a completion of over 30 yards for the past 8 or 9 weeks. Pretty pathetic. I don't know how anybody defends this guy. We will have open tryouts during the offseason and he will get beaten.

funbunch65 wrote:I mean it is easy to have a good completion percentage when you just throw screens the whole time ha ha ha.

This is the same forum that celebrated Mark Brunell setting that completion record... He was mocked by the national media for the disgusting and outright shameful way in which he got it.

RayNAustin wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

markshark84 wrote:All in all, we used a first round draft pick on him and seen no dividends. On all the others, since Shuler (and why I believe there was the reference --- especially because Shuler's tenure was not as long as JCs), we have gotten them through free agency or as low draft picks and did not sacraficed anything to get them. But yes, the others were worse (except J. George is debatable).

We have spent a first on Campbell, Ramsey, and Brad Johnson. Of the three, Campbell has played the most games as a Redskin. Johnson had the best season (10-6, going to the playoffs), but we traded a 1st and 3rd for essentially a 2 year rental of a 32 year old QB.

As for Ramsey, Campbell's had a more successful redskins career (20 starts, 59.9% completions, 6942 yards, 34 TDs, 23 INTs, 20 fumbles) than Ramsey (24 starts, 55.7% completions, 5649 yards, 34 TDs, 29 INTs, 25 fumbles). Campbell has more completion percentage, more yards, same TDs, less INTs and less fumbles...in less games. Ramsey was, by all measurements, more of a bust than Campbell.

Has Campbell turned into a great QB. Not by a long shot. But it's completely disingenious to pretend he's the only guy who cost us a 1st round pick.

Correction: if I'm not mistaken, didn't we spend 2 1st round picks on Campbell?

Additionally, where are you getting your stats from? Campbell has had 35 starts, and 34 TDs. His first 7 games he had 10 TD's, since then, he's had 24 TD in 28 games. whereas Ramsey threw 34 TD's in 24 starts.

Compare Campbell's numbers to Eli Manning......Manning has thrown 24 Td's in 2005, 24 in 2006, 23 in 2007, and 21 this year.

ANY WAY YOU SPIN IT, Campbell's scoring numbers are down right PATHETIC. Tyler Thigpen has better numbers. Matt Ryan (the Rookie has as many TD's this year as Campbell has had in the last 28 games!

Yes. He is correct. Although I thought it was 34 starts.

he is healthy ramsey was a shocker to me when they snagged him from starting,

VetSkinsFan wrote:

DEHog wrote:Look, when it comes to Jason I think everything will work itself out...by that I mean we've haven't giving him a truckload of money, he's coming up on the last year of his contract...I say don't give him a new deal he has not done enough to even ask...he gets a second year in the same system, that will give everyone full 32 games to decide if we want to move forward with him or move in another direction. Doesn't that seem fair to all involved??

With 5 months of this offense under his belt, there's been no improvement in the offensive passing game, though. The offense has actually lost a step (or 2) when CP started getting dinged up. The beginning of the year was on CP's shoulders. What progress warrants yet ANOTHER year? There's been NO progress throughout the year.

THE SYSTEM AND THE TEAM HAS DEVELOPED AND CAMBELL STUCK TROUGH ALOT i NEED SOME OLINEMEN FOR THE SAME REASON AS WE ALL DO. AND COULD ALREADY SEE PORTIS CHEWING UP YARDAGE

PulpExposure wrote:Mark, I understand your points, but I just hate when people spew hyperbole (the worst, the most damaging, etc.) when it's clearly not true.

There's just no way that Campbell is a worse QB than Danny Wuerffle or Tim Hasselbeck (remember the game with his 0.0 passer rating?)

It's one thing to say you don't think Campbell will succeed, or he's had his chances and he's not improving, etc. It's another to say what John is saying; when you conflate the two, it makes it appear as if you agree he's the worst since Shuler, etc. And I am almost 100% certain that you don't hold the same thoughts.

Bob 0119 wrote:I agree that Ramsey got a raw deal. The guy could've been a decent QB, but by the time we were done with him, he was so beat up that I think he was gun-shy.

Oh yeah, I completely think he got destroyed by Spurrier's looney blocking schemes. Block the middle blitz? Pshaw, why bother!

(watch Ramsey get piledriven by Roy Williams).

Just to throw some fuel on the fire, at least Ramsey got 2 years starting in the same system

It is true, first of all this shows you don't use facts, we spent a 1rst, 3rd, and 4th on Campbell, remember we traded up to get Campbell, Ramsey we just drafted. Todd Collins was more a saviour than JC ever will be. You also said Brad we spent a first on, yeah he only made the pro bowl and the next year he was 7-4, Jeff George pissed away that season. Once again you are not using the facts. Rodney Pete we gave up so much for him , same with Kent Graham and Tony Banks . Campbell we gave up a first, third, and 4th, and what do we get in return, he pisses away two seasons. Collins played better than Campbell's ever had, I don't care what they say, and with less of a chance. Ramsey did not piss away Spurrier's second season that was Spurrier. His third season, he didn't piss it away, Mark Brunell did. His 4th season they only gave him one quarter. He got a raw deal, unlike you I am a fair guy, I don't get pissed off at people when they get a raw deal. Todd Collins also showed that our line and Wr's are better than people think, and that JC is the main problem. There shouldn't be any baby time in the NFL, you can ether job done or can't. JC clearly can't. WCO isn't entirley new, we have the same running game, so he doesn't have to relearn that, and HE RAN THE WCO IN COLLEGE HIS SENIOR YEAR, HE HAS SOMETHING TO REFER BACK TO. He is learning a new offense statement is the biggest bunch of BS I have ever heard. Oh yeah and Ramsey showed some heart his second year, JC has not shown any heart as a Redskin, all he does is say its not all my fault man, its frustrating when you get all the blame and its not all your fault. He is not a leader and he won't sacrfice for this team. If he really was a leader he would publicty take responsibility and try to motivate his teammates. He has a very tiny heart, and it sickens me to see people make exscuses for people like him. He is a likeable guy, but is a bad Qb, and a bad leader.

Another reason I want to stick with Campbell is because if Campbell has another bad season he's going to fire Zorn...that way the new coach can bring in his guy.
I feel for Zorn for having to be hitched to Campbell...Wasn't there a rumor that Zorn didn't think JAson could be a NFL QB??

DEHog wrote:Another reason I want to stick with Campbell is because if Campbell has another bad season he's going to fire Zorn...that way the new coach can bring in his guy.
I feel for Zorn for having to be hitched to Campbell...Wasn't there a rumor that Zorn didn't think JAson could be a NFL QB??

Joe Gibbs, Al Saunders, now Zorn, Campbell is now a coach killer too.

18th Brett Favre, Jets, 9-6
20th Jake Delhomme, Panthers, 11-4
21st Ben Roethlisberger, Steelers, 11-4
22nd Kerry Collins, Titans, 13-2
24th Joe Flacco, 10-5

So yeah, it's hard to say that he is entirely to blame, or that he is "the worst QB ever" when the stats don't support that.[/quote]
So you honestly would trade any of those guys for JC. Man if thats true you would give Vinny a run for his money.