The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Deadskins wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:He was a default hiring because anyone with legitimate credentials to take the job either would not interview or turned the job down.

Really? Jim Fassel (with a winning record as a head coach), and Steve Mariucci don't count?

Why would they count? They aren't legitimate candidates for any other jobs. The last time Fassell had a job, he was hired as a favor by his friend Billick in Baltimore. Billick, his friend, had to fire him during the season. Marriucci has already been fired twice. He's a poor man's Norv Turner.

Really? I don't remember any Norv Turner coached team ever making a SB, much less winning one.

Which of those coaches ever won a super bowl? I remember the Giants going, but not winning. I don't remember Marriucci making a super bowl. Maybe I'm forgetting something. Regardless of either winning a super bowl, neither is currently a legitimate candidate for any other coaching jobs in the league. As I said, the last time Fassell was given a job to help resusitate his career, he had to be fired by a longtime friend during the season. If anyone was even considering Fassell for a job he wouldn't have had to accept a job with the UFL.

I do think that Snyder was close to hiring Fassell. I like to think the fan outcry and the calls to Redskins Park made him reconsider.

Fassel went and lost. Marriucci went and won.

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:

El Mexican wrote:To SF: there's one slight problem with your excellent synthesis: we all know that Snyder is the one running the show, not Cerrato.

Was Cerrato the one who tried to land Cutler and Sanchez this offseason? No. Everyone knows it was Snyder. Is Cerrato responsable in signing Fat Albert? No. We also know that it was Snyder all along pulling the strings.

Were exactly do you draw the line between these two?

For some time that has been the real issue with the FO, not Vinny's ability to judge talent.

That's my point as well....but we are being told it's Vinny gig now...many here give Vinny a pass for the past...the proof will come and I'll pose this question to SF...IF the season goes south and DS decides to fire someone..who should go first Vinny or Zorn??

A couple of points... Vinny doesn't "get a pass" for the past... because he wasn't calling the shots as some continue to assert. As I previously said, before Gibbs' retired, Vinny merely headed up the scouting department and Gibbs was the HC/President/GM. So if you're frustrated with what happened during Gibbs' tenure... blame Gibbs and Williams. Prior to Gibbs returning, I blame Snyder for the miscues and he's recently acknowledged those mistakes. Since Zorn and Cerrato took over, I like what I see and will reserve judgment until after this season concludes.

Second... there's not one bit of evidence to conclude Snyder is the sole person responsible for currently pulling the strings. In his early years... yes, but not since Gibbs took over. Is Snyder involved with the interview process of potential draft choices and free agents? Sure, the man writes the checks. But to assert he calls all the shots is just uninformed. Gibbs even spoke about this many times in the past. An integrated process narrowed down which players were desired and that list was subsequently presented to Snyder for the purposes for determining if said player is financially feasible. Gibbs and Cerrato have both said that Snyder doesn't sit in on meetings or film study and isn't the one selecting players.

As far as DE's question regarding who gets fired first... I'll say this. At this point in time, I don't think either deserves to be fired. But I've already said I believe Vinny has done a decent job since he took over as GM. Camp starts in two days, so at this point, the onus is on the coaches and the players. There's not a heck of a lot Vinny can do right now. He's done his offseason work and I've said I like it and agree with it. In my opinion, Zorn deserves the chance to play out his contract, and I believe, regardless of what happens this year, he will get that chance.

It's a game with opponents, so anything can happen. But again, it would be illogical to conclude before the season starts that a 2nd year in a system wouldn't produce better results... and I think it will. As much as I love Jim Zorn, a lot is riding on his shoulders right now. But I think he'll get it done. I don't buy into the media's hype about Zorn necessarily being on the hot seat. Logic tells me that the powers that be knew he was a first-time head coach and play caller, and therefore there has to be time afforded for a learning curve. Some talk about last year being a failure... I don't see it that way. I think they took a huge step forward and Zorn and Cerrato are partially responsible for that. We all hope in continues.

As far as Zorn and his philosophies, I highly recommend folks read this.

SnyderSucks wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:He was a default hiring because anyone with legitimate credentials to take the job either would not interview or turned the job down.

Really? Jim Fassel (with a winning record as a head coach), and Steve Mariucci don't count?

Why would they count? They aren't legitimate candidates for any other jobs. The last time Fassell had a job, he was hired as a favor by his friend Billick in Baltimore. Billick, his friend, had to fire him during the season. Marriucci has already been fired twice. He's a poor man's Norv Turner.

Really? I don't remember any Norv Turner coached team ever making a SB, much less winning one.

Which of those coaches ever won a super bowl? I remember the Giants going, but not winning. I don't remember Marriucci making a super bowl. Maybe I'm forgetting something. Regardless of either winning a super bowl, neither is currently a legitimate candidate for any other coaching jobs in the league. As I said, the last time Fassell was given a job to help resusitate his career, he had to be fired by a longtime friend during the season. If anyone was even considering Fassell for a job he wouldn't have had to accept a job with the UFL.

I do think that Snyder was close to hiring Fassell. I like to think the fan outcry and the calls to Redskins Park made him reconsider.

Fassel went and lost. Marriucci went and won.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Mariucci

I remeber the giants Super Bowl with Fassell.

I don't remember Mariucci ever getting close to a SB, and neither does his record on wikipedia.

DEHog wrote:I guess that was a answer???
OK let me put it another way...By Vinny getting a pass...I meant that he wasn't responsible for anything prior to him getting his current position...because there seem to be alot of question as to who is/has been calling the shots. Now most agree that Vinny is on the clock, however there are a few here that don't agree and believe that Vinny is just a figure head to quiet the critics who are calling for a GM.

SO I ask you again in another way...this time a two fold question.

1. If and when DS decides to fire Zorn, should Vinny be fired first??
2. If DS fires Zorn, doesn't that suggest that it DS calling the shots and not Vinny??

Yes or No...I don't need an analysis just YES or No!!

DEHog wrote:1. If and when DS decides to fire Zorn, should Vinny be fired first??

DEHog wrote:2. If DS fires Zorn, doesn't that suggest that it DS calling the shots and not Vinny??

SnyderSucks wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:He was a default hiring because anyone with legitimate credentials to take the job either would not interview or turned the job down.

Really? Jim Fassel (with a winning record as a head coach), and Steve Mariucci don't count?

Why would they count? They aren't legitimate candidates for any other jobs. The last time Fassell had a job, he was hired as a favor by his friend Billick in Baltimore. Billick, his friend, had to fire him during the season. Marriucci has already been fired twice. He's a poor man's Norv Turner.

Really? I don't remember any Norv Turner coached team ever making a SB, much less winning one.

Which of those coaches ever won a super bowl? I remember the Giants going, but not winning. I don't remember Marriucci making a super bowl. Maybe I'm forgetting something. Regardless of either winning a super bowl, neither is currently a legitimate candidate for any other coaching jobs in the league. As I said, the last time Fassell was given a job to help resusitate his career, he had to be fired by a longtime friend during the season. If anyone was even considering Fassell for a job he wouldn't have had to accept a job with the UFL.

I do think that Snyder was close to hiring Fassell. I like to think the fan outcry and the calls to Redskins Park made him reconsider.

Fassel went and lost. Marriucci went and won.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Mariucci

I remeber the giants Super Bowl with Fassell.

I don't remember Mariucci ever getting close to a SB, and neither does his record on wikipedia.

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:I guess that was a answer???
OK let me put it another way...By Vinny getting a pass...I meant that he wasn't responsible for anything prior to him getting his current position...because there seem to be alot of question as to who is/has been calling the shots. Now most agree that Vinny is on the clock, however there are a few here that don't agree and believe that Vinny is just a figure head to quiet the critics who are calling for a GM.

SO I ask you again in another way...this time a two fold question.

1. If and when DS decides to fire Zorn, should Vinny be fired first??
2. If DS fires Zorn, doesn't that suggest that it DS calling the shots and not Vinny??

Yes or No...I don't need an analysis just YES or No!!

Alright... I did answer your question, but I'll now reduce it for clairification purposes.

At this point in time, there is insufficient data to make such a conclusion. Vinny's work is done in the offseason and can be evaluated, to a large degree, when the offseason comes to an end. Zorn's work is done during the season and can be most accurately evaluated at the end of the season.

To date, Vinny has had two complete offseasons, and I've said I like what he's done and agree with the direction of the team. Zorn has only had one season, so until this season is over, I can't accurately assess his work. Does that make sense? Vinny's has had 2 offseasons to evaluate and Zorn only has 1 season to evaluate. So again, I'll reserve judgment until both parties have completed their work on equal basis.

SkinsFreak wrote:Further clairification...

DEHog wrote:1. If and when DS decides to fire Zorn, should Vinny be fired first??

Don't know yet. Zorn could fall flat on his face this year and deserve to be fired more than Vinny. We don't know that yet, the season has not been played.

DEHog wrote:2. If DS fires Zorn, doesn't that suggest that it DS calling the shots and not Vinny??

No, it doesn't. Again, Zorn could prove to be a bust as a head coach and perhaps Cerrato, the new GM, would want to fire him more than Snyder. Again, we don't have a full boat of data to discern that hypothetical question at this point in time. Zorn hasn't coached his second season yet.

DEHog wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Further clairification...

DEHog wrote:1. If and when DS decides to fire Zorn, should Vinny be fired first??

Don't know yet. Zorn could fall flat on his face this year and deserve to be fired more than Vinny. We don't know that yet, the season has not been played.

DEHog wrote:2. If DS fires Zorn, doesn't that suggest that it DS calling the shots and not Vinny??

No, it doesn't. Again, Zorn could prove to be a bust as a head coach and perhaps Cerrato, the new GM, would want to fire him more than Snyder. Again, we don't have a full boat of data to discern that hypothetical question at this point in time. Zorn hasn't coached his second season yet.

So Vinny would get a pass on the Zorn Hiring??

yupchagee wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:I guess that was a answer???
OK let me put it another way...By Vinny getting a pass...I meant that he wasn't responsible for anything prior to him getting his current position...because there seem to be alot of question as to who is/has been calling the shots. Now most agree that Vinny is on the clock, however there are a few here that don't agree and believe that Vinny is just a figure head to quiet the critics who are calling for a GM.

SO I ask you again in another way...this time a two fold question.

1. If and when DS decides to fire Zorn, should Vinny be fired first??
2. If DS fires Zorn, doesn't that suggest that it DS calling the shots and not Vinny??

Yes or No...I don't need an analysis just YES or No!!

Alright... I did answer your question, but I'll now reduce it for clairification purposes.

At this point in time, there is insufficient data to make such a conclusion. Vinny's work is done in the offseason and can be evaluated, to a large degree, when the offseason comes to an end. Zorn's work is done during the season and can be most accurately evaluated at the end of the season.

To date, Vinny has had two complete offseasons, and I've said I like what he's done and agree with the direction of the team. Zorn has only had one season, so until this season is over, I can't accurately assess his work. Does that make sense? Vinny's has had 2 offseasons to evaluate and Zorn only has 1 season to evaluate. So again, I'll reserve judgment until both parties have completed their work on equal basis.

I don't agree. We won't know how well he did during the offseason till we see how well this year's (& last year's) draft picks play.

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Further clairification...

DEHog wrote:1. If and when DS decides to fire Zorn, should Vinny be fired first??

Don't know yet. Zorn could fall flat on his face this year and deserve to be fired more than Vinny. We don't know that yet, the season has not been played.

DEHog wrote:2. If DS fires Zorn, doesn't that suggest that it DS calling the shots and not Vinny??

No, it doesn't. Again, Zorn could prove to be a bust as a head coach and perhaps Cerrato, the new GM, would want to fire him more than Snyder. Again, we don't have a full boat of data to discern that hypothetical question at this point in time. Zorn hasn't coached his second season yet.

So Vinny would get a pass on the Zorn Hiring??

No. While Vinny my not be directly responsible for wins and losses on Sundays, he would be indirectly accountable for those losses if Zorn falls flat on his face, since it's been reported that Cerrato was credited the most for Zorn's hiring. Then, perhaps, both should be fired. But in all fairness, DEHog, we need to see the results of this year before we buy into what appears to be a biased and predetermined agenda.

Deadskins wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Further clairification...

DEHog wrote:1. If and when DS decides to fire Zorn, should Vinny be fired first??

Don't know yet. Zorn could fall flat on his face this year and deserve to be fired more than Vinny. We don't know that yet, the season has not been played.

DEHog wrote:2. If DS fires Zorn, doesn't that suggest that it DS calling the shots and not Vinny??

No, it doesn't. Again, Zorn could prove to be a bust as a head coach and perhaps Cerrato, the new GM, would want to fire him more than Snyder. Again, we don't have a full boat of data to discern that hypothetical question at this point in time. Zorn hasn't coached his second season yet.

So Vinny would get a pass on the Zorn Hiring??

No. While Vinny my not be directly responsible for wins and losses on Sundays, he would be indirectly accountable for those losses if Zorn falls flat on his face, since it's been reported that Cerrato was credited the most for Zorn's hiring. Then, perhaps, both should be fired. But in all fairness, DEHog, we need to see the results of this year before we buy into what appears to be a biased and predetermined agenda.

I think he's asking if Vinny hired Zorn in his capacity as GM, then shouldn't he go before Zorn, and if Vinny didn't hire him then doesn't that prove that The Danny is calling the shots, not Vinny?

SkinsFreak wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Further clairification...

DEHog wrote:1. If and when DS decides to fire Zorn, should Vinny be fired first??

Don't know yet. Zorn could fall flat on his face this year and deserve to be fired more than Vinny. We don't know that yet, the season has not been played.

DEHog wrote:2. If DS fires Zorn, doesn't that suggest that it DS calling the shots and not Vinny??

No, it doesn't. Again, Zorn could prove to be a bust as a head coach and perhaps Cerrato, the new GM, would want to fire him more than Snyder. Again, we don't have a full boat of data to discern that hypothetical question at this point in time. Zorn hasn't coached his second season yet.

So Vinny would get a pass on the Zorn Hiring??

No. While Vinny my not be directly responsible for wins and losses on Sundays, he would be indirectly accountable for those losses if Zorn falls flat on his face, since it's been reported that Cerrato was credited the most for Zorn's hiring. Then, perhaps, both should be fired. But in all fairness, DEHog, we need to see the results of this year before we buy into what appears to be a biased and predetermined agenda.

I think he's asking if Vinny hired Zorn in his capacity as GM, then shouldn't he go before Zorn, and if Vinny didn't hire him then doesn't that prove that The Danny is calling the shots, not Vinny?

I tried to answer that the best I could. If Vinny was responsible for the Zorn hiring -- which has been reported several times -- and Zorn proves to be a bust, then perhaps both Cerrato and Zorn should be fired, because I'm not sure what sense it would make to keep Zorn if he's a bust, even if you've already fired Cerrato. Both would be worthy of a pink slip. This hypothetical scenario is basically predicated on Zorn failing though. Because if Zorn has a good year, we're not having this discussion and neither Cerrato or Zorn should be fired in that case. Snyder was certainly involved with the hiring process, but it was said that Vinny made the biggest push for Zorn. If Zorn does work out well as the head coach however, will Vinny get credit for the hiring?

SnyderSucks wrote:From SI.com

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/f ... ml?eref=T1

They rank him third behind on Al Davis and Ford in Detroit. Hard to argue with Ford, but Davis has won multiple super bowls and has been to one during the time that Snyder has been owner.

I'm glad to see others ranking Snyder as a terrible owner. The simple truth is they will never be consistently good as long as he continues to own the team. Lifetime winning percentage of 41%. What do you think Snyder would do with a coach with that winning percentage? Who's the only consistent presence attached to that winning percentage?

Snyder Must Go!

Fios wrote:Thank god this thread is still going

Dave Allen wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:From SI.com

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/f ... ml?eref=T1

They rank him third behind on Al Davis and Ford in Detroit. Hard to argue with Ford, but Davis has won multiple super bowls and has been to one during the time that Snyder has been owner.

I'm glad to see others ranking Snyder as a terrible owner. The simple truth is they will never be consistently good as long as he continues to own the team. Lifetime winning percentage of 41%. What do you think Snyder would do with a coach with that winning percentage? Who's the only consistent presence attached to that winning percentage?

Snyder Must Go!

Yeah, he is an awful owner, he just goes out and gets anyone his head coach or semi-GM asks for ...

Snyder is the best kind of owner you could ask for. He says "just tell me what you need and I'll cut the check"

His issue is he is not a football guy and there are no football guys around him in the front office. If Snyder were the owner during the days of Beatherd and Cassiry, he would have had the same results that Jack Kent Cooke had.

Snyder is not the problem. The lack of a GM that knows his rear end from a hole in the ground is the problem

Dave Allen wrote:Snyder is not the problem. The lack of a GM that knows his rear end from a hole in the ground is the problem

Dave Allen wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:From SI.com

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/f ... ml?eref=T1

They rank him third behind on Al Davis and Ford in Detroit. Hard to argue with Ford, but Davis has won multiple super bowls and has been to one during the time that Snyder has been owner.

I'm glad to see others ranking Snyder as a terrible owner. The simple truth is they will never be consistently good as long as he continues to own the team. Lifetime winning percentage of 41%. What do you think Snyder would do with a coach with that winning percentage? Who's the only consistent presence attached to that winning percentage?

Snyder Must Go!

Yeah, he is an awful owner, he just goes out and gets anyone his head coach or semi-GM asks for ...

Snyder is the best kind of owner you could ask for. He says "just tell me what you need and I'll cut the check"

His issue is he is not a football guy and there are no football guys around him in the front office. If Snyder were the owner during the days of Beatherd and Cassiry, he would have had the same results that Jack Kent Cooke had.

Snyder is not the problem. The lack of a GM that knows his rear end from a hole in the ground is the problem

SkinsFreak wrote:

Dave Allen wrote:Snyder is not the problem. The lack of a GM that knows his rear end from a hole in the ground is the problem

Listen... I understand why some persistently claim we do not have a GM. When Joe Gibbs came back, we got a "Team President." After Gibbs retired, we got a "Vice President of Football Operations."

But no "General Manager."

Come on guys... open your eyes and look around. We DO have a GM. Take a look...


I was not talking about the title. I was talking about a GM that knows football. Do you think VC is that guy?













































































Told ya...

Dave Allen wrote:I was not talking about the title. I was talking about a GM that knows football. Do you think VC is that guy?