U.N. Resolutions - Do They Work?

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:26 pm

Sooooooo....give me a source you will believe and I will try to find it there. Thanks.

yupchagee · Post by **yupchagee** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:17 pm

dnpmakkah wrote:Sooooooo....give me a source you will believe and I will try to find it there. Thanks.

Foxnews, Jelusalem Post, Christian Broadcasting Network.

The issue isn't if Lebanese civilians were killed. It's if It was deliberate On Israel's part. Bad things happen in war. They happen more when 1 side uses civilians as human shields. Israel has (& is in this latest round) endangered her own soldiers to reduce casualties among enemy civilians. What other armies do that?

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:32 am

The issue isn't if Lebanese civilians were killed. It's if It was deliberate On Israel's part. Bad things happen in war. They happen more when 1 side uses civilians as human shields. Israel has (& is in this latest round) endangered her own soldiers to reduce casualties among enemy civilians.

He doesn't care. It's that whole "moral equivalence" thing... you know... "evil is just an alternative form of good", and all that.

What other armies do that?

How about ours? Britain? Canada? Italy? Do you see a (hint: NATO) pattern here?

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:05 pm

Mike: "Hey Tom?"
Tom: "Yes Mike?"
Mike: "Please leave your house, I am going to kill your wife tonight"
Wife: "You are going to kill me?"
Mike: "Yep...remember you stole my parking spot today?"
Wife: "So I'm not giving it back, till you give me newspaper back"
Mike: "Well then I'm just going to kill you unless you give it back"

Tom: Tom takes the advice and leaves the house.
Mike: Enters the residence late at night and kills the wife.

Police: "You are under arrest Mike for murdering this mans wife"
Mike: "But officer I WARNED him and the wife I was going to do it"

Police: "Oh you WARNED them, well why didn't you say so?"
Mike: "So what is going to happen officer?"
Police: "Nothing Mike you are free you go, you WARNED them. everything is ok."

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:16 pm

1982:Israeli attacks leave up to 14,000 Lebanese and Palestinian civilians dead. Shiite Muslims form the militant group Hezbollah, which becomes the main opposition to the Israeli occupation.

1996:Israeli artillery kills more than 100 Lebanese civilians sheltering at a U.N. base in Qana, south Lebanon.

FOX NEWS LINK

UK Skins Fan · Post by **UK Skins Fan** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:42 pm

yupchagee wrote:
dnpmakkah wrote:
11 April 1996
On 18 April Israel shells a UN base at Qana killing about one hundred of 800 civilians sheltering there. A later UN report implies the attack was intentional, though Israel denies this.

Link Here

Seems to be a bit of history regarding this type of 'accident'.

The BBC has a long history of anti Israel bias. They are about as reliable as Pravda in the days of the Soviet Union.

OK, you've made the accusation - you want to back it up?

If you think the BBC is biased against Israel, then I suggest that you never watch Channel Four news - that would really get you mad.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:32 pm

dnpmakkah wrote:Mike: "Hey Tom?"
Tom: "Yes Mike?"
Mike: "Please leave your house, I am going to kill your wife tonight"
Wife: "You are going to kill me?"
Mike: "Yep...remember you stole my parking spot today?"
Wife: "So I'm not giving it back, till you give me newspaper back"
Mike: "Well then I'm just going to kill you unless you give it back"

Tom: Tom takes the advice and leaves the house.
Mike: Enters the residence late at night and kills the wife.

Police: "You are under arrest Mike for murdering this mans wife"
Mike: "But officer I WARNED him and the wife I was going to do it"

Police: "Oh you WARNED them, well why didn't you say so?"
Mike: "So what is going to happen officer?"
Police: "Nothing Mike you are free you go, you WARNED them. everything is ok."

I'm sure Tom's wife didn't need the entire paper, Mike could have asked Tom to give him back the parts that his wife wasn't reading, if you are just going to walk into some one's home and tell one resident to leave due to the fact that the other would be killed. Tom's kids would only grow up to hate Mike's family.

Why is Tom and Mike's wife in and out of each other's homes so freely anyway?. Where was Tom's wife when the paper went missing? What's so important in this paper that Tom would threaten death to Tom's wife, yet warn Tom no to be around? What's up with Tom and Mike? How does Tom's wife feel about Mike's wife being killed, and then living with a killer?
Did Tom later sue the Publishers of the Paper?

I had no idea what this had to do with the subject at hand, until I started asking these questions. Yeah I was trying to be funny, but then I thought about it and wondered... Shouldn't UNcIe FIL have seen what was going on with all the traffic between Tom and Mike's homes? Why didn't UNcIe FIL tell dad/Big Brother what was going on? UNcIeFIL knew what was going on why didn't he duck when Tom started shooting?

This is why I don't get into politics, most have questions, nobody suggest any answers, everybody pointing blame.

This_Heat · Post by **This_Heat** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:34 pm

yupchagee wrote:
dnpmakkah wrote:Sooooooo....give me a source you will believe and I will try to find it there. Thanks.

Foxnews, Jelusalem Post, Christian Broadcasting Network.

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:36 am

1niksder wrote:This is why I don't get into politics, most have questions, nobody suggest any answers, everybody pointing blame.

Which is why it's so wonderful that Redskins season is upon us in just a couple days and an actual game a few weeks from now. But until then...this thread has kept me entertained. It's just nice to hear everyones opinion even though I disagree with some.

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:17 pm

Over 750 Lebanese, mostly civilians, have been killed in Israel's devastating assault on the country, with around 50 Israelis, most of them military, dead from Lebanese Shiite movement Hezbollah's rockets

LINK HERE

52 villagers, including 30 children were killed in the pre-dawn air raid which left homes in ruins and villagers trapped under the rubble.

Israel expressed "regret" over the civilian deaths and ordered an inquiry but said it had warned residents to leave and pinned the blame on Shiite Muslim militia Hezbollah for launching rockets from the village.

Reaction to the Qana carnage was fierce across the Arab world, and even Britain, Washington's closest ally, branded the Qana attack as "quite appalling."

EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana said "nothing can justify" the deadly bombardment and Syria, Lebanon's former powerbroker, described it as "state terrorism."

LINK HERE

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:11 pm

dnpmakkah wrote:
Over 750 Lebanese, mostly civilians, have been killed in Israel's devastating assault on the country, with around 50 Israelis, most of them military, dead from Lebanese Shiite movement Hezbollah's rockets

LINK HERE

52 villagers, including 30 children were killed in the pre-dawn air raid which left homes in ruins and villagers trapped under the rubble.

Israel expressed "regret" over the civilian deaths and ordered an inquiry but said it had warned residents to leave and pinned the blame on Shiite Muslim militia Hezbollah for launching rockets from the village.

Reaction to the Qana carnage was fierce across the Arab world, and even Britain, Washington's closest ally, branded the Qana attack as "quite appalling."

EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana said "nothing can justify" the deadly bombardment and Syria, Lebanon's former powerbroker, described it as "state terrorism."

LINK HERE

Had Lebonnon controled it's borders, none of this would be happening.

Speaking of those that did take control of the border...
If you want to fight someone, you let your intentions be known (punch them in the mouth, Kick em in the balls whatever) then you stand your ground. You don't run and hide behind the little old lady with her grandkids that thought see was about to see a good fight.

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:32 am

Lets go back 2 weeks in time and change the story a bit. Lets say Hamas and Hezbollah milita men strapped a couple of bombs to them and blew themselves up on a bus killing innocent Israeli people. The world leaders (mostly the west) would condemn that action as terrorism. We as regular folks would also condemn it because of the fact that civilians were targeted.

If the situation above was what directly caused the actions of the latest operation by Israel...I wouldn't have much complaint against it. I understand that any nation has a right to defend itself. I know that Israel is frequently targeted by missles and suicide attacks from 2 fronts and they can't just roll over and die and must defend themselves. But I also feel that Israel has some spiders in its closet as well and for anyone to think otherwise is just ridiculous. I would venture out and bet my life on it that there have been many times where Israel initiated many situations either by kidnappings, missle strikes, blockades or just imposing their will anytime they want (in essence being a bully).

What gets me really fed up with the actions this time around is this. Civilians weren't targeted...Suicide bombs weren't used. Hezbollah and Hamas kidnapped Israeli solders not civilians. I'm not saying its right but to take a situation where it was military vs military and expand it to include bombings of roads, bridges, hospitals, apartment buildings, factories, electrical systems, water systems and in the process killing over 500 civilians is a bit OVER THE TOP.

I see absolutely NO benefit from the current onslaught. There is no way Hezbollah or Hamas will be defeated. These two organizations don't really exist in the phyical sense as much as they do spirtually. This is only going to create more PR for them and bad rep for Israel.

I'm sure Israel knows this, they would be stupid not to. The only benefit to it is that you slow Hezbollah and Hamas down for the time being the downside is that in the future you have created more hatred. I don't have an answer...but I do know this is not working.

I hope whoever created modern weaponary goes to hell when the time comes. What happened to the good ole days of fist fights.

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:49 am

yupchagee wrote:
dnpmakkah wrote:Sooooooo....give me a source you will believe and I will try to find it there. Thanks.

Foxnews, Jelusalem Post, Christian Broadcasting Network.

I'm shocked, SHOCKED! :shock:

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:28 pm

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:01 pm

dnpmakkah wrote:http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

I don't see that site on the approved list. :roll:

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:40 pm

JSPB22 wrote:
dnpmakkah wrote:http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

I don't see that site on the approved list.

Oops my fault. Please ignore it then.

yupchagee · Post by **yupchagee** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:21 pm

dnpmakkah wrote:
Over 750 Lebanese, mostly civilians, have been killed in Israel's devastating assault on the country, with around 50 Israelis, most of them military, dead from Lebanese Shiite movement Hezbollah's rockets

LINK HERE

52 villagers, including 30 children were killed in the pre-dawn air raid which left homes in ruins and villagers trapped under the rubble.

Israel expressed "regret" over the civilian deaths and ordered an inquiry but said it had warned residents to leave and pinned the blame on Shiite Muslim militia Hezbollah for launching rockets from the village.

Reaction to the Qana carnage was fierce across the Arab world, and even Britain, Washington's closest ally, branded the Qana attack as "quite appalling."

EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana said "nothing can justify" the deadly bombardment and Syria, Lebanon's former powerbroker, described it as "state terrorism."

LINK HERE

Would you be happier if there were more dead Jews?

The reason for the disparity in civilian casualities (to the extent that reports from Hisbollah are true) is that Israel sends its civilians to bomb shelters. Arabs send their civilians to shelter bombs.

Even rhe UN has acknowledged this.

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:47 pm

yupchagee wrote:
The reason for the disparity in civilian casualities (to the extent that reports from Hisbollah are true) is that Israel sends its civilians to bomb shelters. Arabs send their civilians to shelter bombs.

No...the difference this time is that Hezbollah has been targeting the Israeli military thus more soldiers are dead than civilians in contrast the Israeli military aims wherever it wants (i.e. bridges, roads, apartment buildings) just to possibly kill 1 Hezbollah member but if in the process they kill....oh lets say 60 civilians then its cool.

I like you man...sometimes I do smile when I read your point of view. Keep it up. Like I said before, I hope you are right. I hope by the end of this when 1000 or more Lebanesse are dead I hope Israel gains peace because if it doesnt work I'll be here to say "told ya so"

yupchagee · Post by **yupchagee** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:12 pm

dnpmakkah wrote:
yupchagee wrote:
The reason for the disparity in civilian casualities (to the extent that reports from Hisbollah are true) is that Israel sends its civilians to bomb shelters. Arabs send their civilians to shelter bombs.

No...the difference this time is that Hezbollah has been targeting the Israeli military thus more soldiers are dead than civilians in contrast the Israeli military aims wherever it wants (i.e. bridges, roads, apartment buildings) just to possibly kill 1 Hezbollah member but if in the process they kill....oh lets say 60 civilians then its cool.

I like you man...sometimes I do smile when I read your point of view. Keep it up. Like I said before, I hope you are right. I hope by the end of this when 1000 or more Lebanesse are dead I hope Israel gains peace because if it doesnt work I'll be here to say "told ya so"

You are wrong. Hisbollah is targeting Israeli cities (Haifa, Kiryot Shemona, etc. Israeli are living in bomb shelters or have temporarily moved south. Israel targets terrorists, but they hide behind women & children. In this latest incident, the building was used to launch rockets. It stood 6 hrs after the explosion. Why were there children in the building at the time it colapsed?

Think. Who benefits from the deaths of civilians on both sides?

Yup. Hizbollah. So who do you think arranged for these deaths? Same answer.

Israel loses when Lebanese civilians are killed, so why would they target them?

I never said that this would give Israel peace. There does not seem to be a limit to Arabs' hatred of Jews.

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:25 am

yupchagee wrote:
Israel loses when Lebanese civilians are killed, so why would they target them?

Because the nation of Israel and it's people are no better than anyone else. They should not be held to a higher standard then the rest of the world. The citizens might be noble but just like every other governement in the world...it's run by evil doers. Some might think its idiotic for me to think this of Israel...but I find it foolish for those that think Israel is beyond this type of behavior.

yupchagee wrote: I never said that this would give Israel peace. There does not seem to be a limit to Arabs' hatred of Jews.

Or a limit to the support that the Jewish nation can get from some around the world regarding this atrocity.

UK Skins Fan · Post by **UK Skins Fan** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:15 pm

OK, this may be a completely inappropriate parallel to draw between two dissimilar situations, but let's substitute Israel with Britain, and then substitute Hezbollah with the IRA. Now, as I said, this may not be a direct parallel, but what would Americans have been saying if Britain had started bombing Dublin and the Irish civilian infrastructure, whilst complaining that the terrorists were hiding amongst the civilian population?

And if these aren't two similar situations, then why not?

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:02 pm

I think your hypothetical is reasonable. There are many parallels between the two situations. An indiginous people who claim rights to the disputed territory... A circumstance charged with religious fervor... The use of terrorism as the primary means of warfare by one side... A terrorist organization creating a political wing with the intent of appearing legitimate, and appeasing the gullible...

Assuming that Ireland had witnessed the IRA launching similar missions from it's territory, and refusing to even attempt to manage it's borders, we'd say the same thing. That constitutes an act of war.

If you claim to be a sovereign nation, then you assume the responsibility to police your own borders. This not only means controlling access to your sovereign territory, but it also means that you do not permit your citizens to commit acts of war against your neighbor, as Hezbollah has done. Lebanon's failure to even attempt to manage it's borders effectively makes it complicit.

Israel has every right, indeed, obligation to defend herself, as would Britain in your hypothetical.

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:53 pm

I have a hypothetical question as well. Lets take for example the below situation.

If nation (1) has its land invaded and stolen by nation (3) and given to nation (2) to occupy without mutual consent from all parties does nation (1) have a right to defend itself?

Maybe to modernize and localize the situation a bit more take this for example. If Saudi Arabia invaded the U.S. and gave the entire East Coast to Pakistan, would this invasion by the Saudis and the occupation by Pakistan constitute an act of war?

Would America be justified in their hatred of both parties, the Pakis for occupying the land and the Saudis for dividing it? Would it be ok for America to go to war against these two nations to get their land back?

DesertSkin · Post by **DesertSkin** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:48 pm

And if these aren't two similar situations, then why not?

They are fairly similar in that they are both insurgencies, but in addition to what countertrey mentioned, the biggest problem with the two being the same is their different political objectives.

The IRA mission was "liberation and land/be part of Ireland" (from what I understand, not an expert on the IRA), not the destruction of Britian.

The Hezbollah's openly admitted mission is the destruction of Isreal which will result in a complete territorial gain.

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:09 pm

If nation (1) has its land invaded and stolen by nation (3) and given to nation (2) to occupy without mutual consent from all parties does nation (1) have a right to defend itself?

Since the nation who's land became Israel was Jordan, and since Jordan has made peace with Israel, I'd say your hypothetical is flawed.