The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

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PAY THE MAN.................

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or

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PAY THE MAN

SkinsJock wrote:I'm as hopeful of a turnaround for this franchise as anyone but until Dan Snyder realizes that he doesn't have a clue about running or managing an NFL franchise, we are kidding ourselves if we think that having good players and good coaches can overcome his stupidity - that is not happening

If we had good players and good coaches, how could you then say that Dan Snyder does not have a clue about running an NFL franchise?

Seems like flawed logic.

Raiders quarterback Derek Carr is now the highest paid quarterback in league history. Sort of.

Under the so-called “new money” analysis, Carr’s five-year, $125 million extension has a value of $25 million, via Ian Rapoport of NFL Media. That trumps the $24.769 million new-money average received a year ago by Colts quarterback Andrew Luck by a mere $271,000.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... 00-higher/

I find two things here interesting.

1) Carr getting more money than Luck has nothing to do with him being a better or worse QB. Salaries go up every year. Not sure why that is always so hard for fans to come to terms with.

2) Its also interesting that Carr increased that QB salary - but not massively so. It seems like a similar deal for Cousins should be a realistic and affordable possibility, and the Carr deal has set some parameters for this year. I don't want to get into the "is he worth it" debate, but I would argue that a long term deal like that now will look like a bargain two or three years from now. The "wait and see him prove it" strategy has been a huge fail.

Outside of the McCloughan mess, I've liked the draft and roster approach this year so far. I'll be pretty disappointed though if they don't get a deal done with Cousins this year.

riggofan wrote:

Raiders quarterback Derek Carr is now the highest paid quarterback in league history. Sort of.

Under the so-called “new money” analysis, Carr’s five-year, $125 million extension has a value of $25 million, via Ian Rapoport of NFL Media. That trumps the $24.769 million new-money average received a year ago by Colts quarterback Andrew Luck by a mere $271,000.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... 00-higher/

I find two things here interesting.

1) Carr getting more money than Luck has nothing to do with him being a better or worse QB. Salaries go up every year. Not sure why that is always so hard for fans to come to terms with.

2) Its also interesting that Carr increased that QB salary - but not massively so. It seems like a similar deal for Cousins should be a realistic and affordable possibility, and the Carr deal has set some parameters for this year. I don't want to get into the "is he worth it" debate, but I would argue that a long term deal like that now will look like a bargain two or three years from now. The "wait and see him prove it" strategy has been a huge fail.

Outside of the McCloughan mess, I've liked the draft and roster approach this year so far. I'll be pretty disappointed though if they don't get a deal done with Cousins this year.

I'd argue that two or three years from now, when Cousins still hasn't won a playoff game, the Redskins are going to look like the same incompetent boobs they've looked like since 1999.

I'm officially off the "at any cost" train. Regular season stats don't mean jack crap and that's all Cousins has to show. The list of regular season QBs is long. The list of regular season QBs who have done more than Kirk Cousins is even longer and as long as Tim Effing Tebow has more playoff wins than Kirk Cousins there needs to be a hard cap on what the Redskins are willing to pay.

Stupid is as stupid does and no organization does stupid like our Washington Redskins.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:I'd argue that two or three years from now, when Cousins still hasn't won a playoff game, the Redskins are going to look like the same incompetent boobs they've looked like since 1999.

Yeah, anything is possible. I'm not going to say you're crazy for that opinion. For me personally, I'd just rather see them roll the dice on stability. I've already seen the movie where they "find a QB in the [draft/free agency/wishful thinking]", and I wouldn't be hyped to see the team save $22m by starting Nate Sudfeld.

Either way, not arguing that Cousins is the right guy or not. I'm just saying IF they want to keep him, this Carr kind of money should not be a deal breaker.

Well Derek Carr has never started in a playoff game....yet. KC has at least gotten to one, and with the team he lead to an NFCE title. And....it does take good play in the regular season to even make it to the post season. So without a good regular season QB, there will be no opportunity for post season play.....where great QB's go to earn gold jackets.

While we can fault KC for his play in that last game last season.....we cannot fault him for missing a FG in London that would have given us a 9-7 record vice a 8-7-1....we cannot fault him for another woeful defense where the team's fortunes rested solely with the offense and production there more often than not.

The price for KC is in the same ballpark as the price was for Carr. While KC may not single handedly lead us to the playoffs and a return to the SB.....we will be a lot closer to that goal with him than without. If we think McCoy and Sudfield are the ultimate answers here.....then we certainly will look like incompetent boobs. Don't think we will look that way by signing our franchise starter to a LTD with a big pay day.....even if it just doesn't work out. The alternatives just are not that realistic to me.

rskin72 wrote:Well Derek Carr has never started in a playoff game....yet. KC has at least gotten to one, and with the team he lead to an NFCE title. And....it does take good play in the regular season to even make it to the post season. So without a good regular season QB, there will be no opportunity for post season play.....where great QB's go to earn gold jackets.

While we can fault KC for his play in that last game last season.....we cannot fault him for missing a FG in London that would have given us a 9-7 record vice a 8-7-1....we cannot fault him for another woeful defense where the team's fortunes rested solely with the offense and production there more often than not.

The price for KC is in the same ballpark as the price was for Carr. While KC may not single handedly lead us to the playoffs and a return to the SB.....we will be a lot closer to that goal with him than without. If we think McCoy and Sudfield are the ultimate answers here.....then we certainly will look like incompetent boobs. Don't think we will look that way by signing our franchise starter to a LTD with a big pay day.....even if it just doesn't work out. The alternatives just are not that realistic to me.

Derek Carr has 12 4th quarter comebacks in three seasons. Kirk Cousins has 7 in five seasons. So, even by regular season standards there is a case that Carr is the better player.

riggofan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:I'm as hopeful of a turnaround for this franchise as anyone but until Dan Snyder realizes that he doesn't have a clue about running or managing an NFL franchise, we are kidding ourselves if we think that having good players and good coaches can overcome his stupidity - that is not happening

If we had good players and good coaches, how could you then say that Dan Snyder does not have a clue about running an NFL franchise? Seems like flawed logic.

Because the guys in charge have ZERO idea of what it takes - getting good players and having good coaches who don't suit each other is a recipe for disaster
fact is with the players we've had and the coaches we've had this franchise is still in disarray and the product on the field is not playing to it's potential nor are the results on a par with the players and coaches we have - this is totally due to top organizational failure and ZERO accountability

why is anything going to change here if the system and management remain the same?

IF I'm Cousins, I'm looking to play elsewhere ASAP - by the same token it does not help this franchise in the long term to sign Cousins to the contract that he's now going to get and thoroughly deserves because they were stupid not to sign him to a long term deal before this

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

rskin72 wrote:Well Derek Carr has never started in a playoff game....yet. KC has at least gotten to one, and with the team he lead to an NFCE title. And....it does take good play in the regular season to even make it to the post season. So without a good regular season QB, there will be no opportunity for post season play.....where great QB's go to earn gold jackets.

While we can fault KC for his play in that last game last season.....we cannot fault him for missing a FG in London that would have given us a 9-7 record vice a 8-7-1....we cannot fault him for another woeful defense where the team's fortunes rested solely with the offense and production there more often than not.

The price for KC is in the same ballpark as the price was for Carr. While KC may not single handedly lead us to the playoffs and a return to the SB.....we will be a lot closer to that goal with him than without. If we think McCoy and Sudfield are the ultimate answers here.....then we certainly will look like incompetent boobs. Don't think we will look that way by signing our franchise starter to a LTD with a big pay day.....even if it just doesn't work out. The alternatives just are not that realistic to me.

Derek Carr has 12 4th quarter comebacks in three seasons. Kirk Cousins has 7 in five seasons. So, even by regular season standards there is a case that Carr is the better player.

So here are some other stats. Some favor Carr, some KC. At the end of the day...reasonable arguments could be made either way. But Carr has now gotten paid. KC has been tagged twice now, once for 19.95 mil, and now for just under 24mil. Why would he sign any deal that did not have his salary at a value where we just tagged him this season? And KC is our QB....just as Carr is the Raiders. Will the Raiders look foolish if, in 5 years or so, Carr does not pan out as expected? Maybe, but what are the alternatives there? Just as here....what are the reasonable alternatives to KC....especially considering the record over the past couple of seasons, and KC's part in that. Do we really think that we would have had the same records with any other QB on the roster, and our bottom tier D?

Carr
350 573 61.1% 3987YDS 32TD 13 INT
357 560 63.8% 3937YDS 28TD 6 INT

Cousins
379 543 69.8% 4166YDS 29TD 11 INT
406 606 67.0% 4917YDS 25TD 12 INT

SkinsJock wrote:getting good players and having good coaches who don't suit each other is a recipe for disaster

Sure, but that's not what you wrote. You said: "we are kidding ourselves if we think that having good players and good coaches can overcome his stupidity". You didn't say anything about those players/coaches "suiting each other" whatever that means.

So again, my question is: if the team has acquired good players and good coaches, hasn't the management team proven that they can run an NFL franchise?

SkinsJock wrote: fact is with the players we've had and the coaches we've had this franchise is still in disarray and the product on the field is not playing to it's potential nor are the results on a par with the players and coaches we have - this is totally due to top organizational failure and ZERO accountability

Sorry, but that's not a fact at all. That's the opinion of some guy on the Internet. They've had two consecutive winning seasons with what any objective person would say is an average roster and a subpar defensive roster. Zero accountability? That's nonsense. Where is Joe Barry these days? Ask Matt Jones about accountability.

I'll give you that the McCloughan thing looked terrible this offseason, but I'm still not sure it showed the team in disarray at all. Scot left in a messy situation, but it looks to me like the rest of the organization has continued on pretty much the same way it has run the past three years.

SkinsJock wrote: why is anything going to change here if the system and management remain the same?

The bigger question is if you believe this to be true, why bother following the team at all? That just seems dumb.

If I honestly believed that this team was completely hopeless under Dan Snyder's ownership, I can guarantee you I'd quit wasting my time watching games on Sunday.

I don't mean to beat up on you personally man, but I'm kind of tired of this opinion. We'll find out this fall if the team is in disarray or not.

Derek Carr signs $125M contract. 5yrs. @ $25M/yr. NICE. I think KC would look for something in this range.

SKINS#1 wrote:Derek Carr signs $125M contract. 5yrs. @ $25M/yr. NICE. I think KC would look for something in this range.

I think KC is looking for something in the two years, $58 Million range, which is a third franchise tag and a transition tag.

He isn't signing a mother loving thing. Zero incentive.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

SKINS#1 wrote:Derek Carr signs $125M contract. 5yrs. @ $25M/yr. NICE. I think KC would look for something in this range.

I think KC is looking for something in the two years, $58 Million range, which is a third franchise tag and a transition tag.

He isn't signing a mother loving thing. Zero incentive.

My hunch: Cousins played with a "tag" last season. That's a risk for him, and one that the Redskins forced. He will make a hefty salary playing another year while tagged, and each game gives him less incentive to sign with the Redskins. What did he make in 2016 and how much will he make in 2017? Close to $50 million?

On other matters: like Jock, I distrust Snyder. I have no hope that the Redskins will be a good team as long as Snyder controls things. However, I was born a Redskin fan. My earliest memories are Mickey Vernon and Eddie LaBaron, and Dad telling me that our team had had the greatest quarterback ever. About that year, I was given a Choo Choo (Charlie) Justice uniform from Hechts.

"Dan Snyder" means instability, means the franchise has been on a tread-mill since he bought it. Mark off that time and then count the Redskin head coaches, starting QB's, and GM's. Then compare to the Giants over the same period. The Redskins were as well-run as the Giants from the minute Edward Bennett Williams took control until Snyder. Painful.

riggofan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:why is anything going to change here if the system and management remain the same?

The bigger question is if you believe this to be true, why bother following the team at all? That just seems dumb.

If I honestly believed that this team was completely hopeless under Dan Snyder's ownership, I can guarantee you I'd quit wasting my time watching games on Sunday.

I don't mean to beat up on you personally man, but I'm kind of tired of this opinion. We'll find out this fall if the team is in disarray or not.

you obviously don't get it - insanity is simply described as doing the same thing and expecting a different result - I can't quit being a fan because the owner is an idiot
you may be tired of this opinion but I'm tired of fans thinking that things might get better here when we keep doing things the same way and expecting different results

there is zero accountability here from top to bottom

I don't see Cousins signing a LTD here, mainly because of this idiot owner

Well, I have not been a Snyder cheerleader......and I was at the stadium on the Monday night when some fans (right above where my wife and I were sitting) brought in the now infamous Dumb and Dumber poster that featured pics of Snyder and Cerrato. That got all posters banned from FEDEX for a few weeks.

But I actually think Snyder has taken more of a back seat.....starting with the firing of Cerrato and the hiring of Shanny and Allen. I have noticed that Snyder is no longer even on the dais when major Redskin announcements are made. BA takes care of that business. And while I do not know what actually goes on behind closed doors in the FO....neither does anyone else. It is all speculation and conjecture....and Snyder's stupid mistakes of the past may be carrying over to the present to incorrectly brand him in the mind of some fans.

What I see is a team that could be on the rise (based in large part on what happens with KC). While I was not a Gruden fan at first, he has grown on me as a HC. I liked our offensive hires, especially our Oline coach. While losing our OC was a blow, the offense will always be under the guidance of Gruden. Our D has been the issue for the past several seasons.....Hazlost was just that. And I was not a fan of the Barry hire when other, proven, DC's were available. If our D improves to just average.....that will add some wins to our tally. Hopefully we have now found the correct combination of FO and coaching staff that will sustain us for the foreseeable future.

While it seemed like the team was in disarray when we let McCloughan go....we did not seem to miss a beat in FA or the draft. And while we will need to wait to see the on field results of the draft....it certainly appears that we made some solid choices...and we were not in disarray portrayed in the media. And again, we do not know what happened there either....and to me if Scot really thought he was mistreated here, there would have been some legal challenges.....or at least some leaked stories from his part about the FO and such. But I have read nothing of the sort....making me think that there were some other reasons behind that firing that McCloughan does not want revealed.

Anyhow....as all fans are....I am very optimistic for my team this season, and going forward. A key will be to retain KC....if that does not happen then we are back riding the struggle bus....which is why I am so disheartened that a LTD has not been reached yet. And it may very well be that KC just does not want to play his career (or the next several seasons) here. We will see. But I think our young talent base is on the rise. Other teams are now taking our players from us....which for a long time did not happen. We had back to back winning seasons that we can build on.

SkinsJock wrote: insanity is simply described as doing the same thing and expecting a different result

That's also the definition of practice. And people who trot out that lame quote should be kicked in the balls publicly.

SkinsJock wrote:
you may be tired of this opinion but I'm tired of fans thinking that things might get better here when we keep doing things the same way and expecting different results

Its just a BS analysis and an oversimplification of the situation. If we were truly "doing things the same way" we would have signed five over the hill big name veterans to ridiculous contracts in the off season. Adrian Peterson would have been a Redskin this year on a five year $80m contract. We would have fired Gruden last year and paid millions to lure Nick Saban to the NFL. We would have traded three first round draft picks to move up in the draft and pick Mitch Trubisky.

You can't argue that we're "doing things the same way" because that is demonstrably false. The team seems to have been doing things the Bruce Allen way since Shanahan left. And like him or not, the results haven't been terrible. They've been ok.

Honestly, I'm not arguing that the team has changed for the better or that they've truly figured things out. But I'll give the coaches and players an opportunity to show me this season whether they're on the right track or not. Definitely not going to spend all summer whining that they're hopeless. WTF is the point of that?

rskin72 wrote:But I actually think Snyder has taken more of a back seat.....

Yeah, there's no doubt he's wisely lowered his public profile. Unfortunately - and this is where I agree with SkinsJock and many others - we often find that he's more involved in the football decisions than most of us would like.

We'll see. He's either going to let the football guys do their jobs or he's not. He can either learn from past mistakes or continue to be a joke.

Right - this is the season that we see that Snyder's learned his lesson and the team is going to respond by playing better ... especially Kirk Cousins who has so much to play for

I'll be watching and I will not be gloating

riggofan wrote:

rskin72 wrote:But I actually think Snyder has taken more of a back seat.....

Yeah, there's no doubt he's wisely lowered his public profile. Unfortunately - and this is where I agree with SkinsJock and many others - we often find that he's more involved in the football decisions than most of us would like.

We'll see. He's either going to let the football guys do their jobs or he's not. He can either learn from past mistakes or continue to be a joke.

Since when is Bruce Allen a "football guy?" If they had actual football guys doing their jobs I think a lot of us would feel better about the situation.

John Dorsey is available and we have Bruce Allen.

riggofan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote: insanity is simply described as doing the same thing and expecting a different result

That's also the definition of practice. And people who trot out that lame quote should be kicked in the balls publicly.

SkinsJock wrote:
you may be tired of this opinion but I'm tired of fans thinking that things might get better here when we keep doing things the same way and expecting different results

Its just a BS analysis and an oversimplification of the situation. If we were truly "doing things the same way" we would have signed five over the hill big name veterans to ridiculous contracts in the off season. Adrian Peterson would have been a Redskin this year on a five year $80m contract. We would have fired Gruden last year and paid millions to lure Nick Saban to the NFL. We would have traded three first round draft picks to move up in the draft and pick Mitch Trubisky.

You can't argue that we're "doing things the same way" because that is demonstrably false. The team seems to have been doing things the Bruce Allen way since Shanahan left. And like him or not, the results haven't been terrible. They've been ok.

Honestly, I'm not arguing that the team has changed for the better or that they've truly figured things out. But I'll give the coaches and players an opportunity to show me this season whether they're on the right track or not. Definitely not going to spend all summer whining that they're hopeless. WTF is the point of that?

Well said

riggofan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote: insanity is simply described as doing the same thing and expecting a different result

Its just a BS analysis and an oversimplification of the situation. If we were truly "doing things the same way" we would have signed five over the hill big name veterans to ridiculous contracts in the off season. Adrian Peterson would have been a Redskin this year on a five year $80m contract. We would have fired Gruden last year and paid millions to lure Nick Saban to the NFL. We would have traded three first round draft picks to move up in the draft and pick Mitch Trubisky.

You can't argue that we're "doing things the same way" because that is demonstrably false. The team seems to have been doing things the Bruce Allen way since Shanahan left. And like him or not, the results haven't been terrible. They've been ok.

Honestly, I'm not arguing that the team has changed for the better or that they've truly figured things out. But I'll give the coaches and players an opportunity to show me this season whether they're on the right track or not. Definitely not going to spend all summer whining that they're hopeless. WTF is the point of that?

I'm not whining - that's just you being defensive and trying to make out like things are going OK here - this franchise has not been "going well" since Snyder took over

around July/August each season we get our hopes up and by January we all know we're not as good as we should be given the players on the roster and the coaching staff

I agree with you that the product on the field has been 'OK' - not good but not bad - the thing is, we've been the goddamn same, not good but not bad franchise since this weasel came here - I believe that the product on the field would be a lot better given the same players and coaches without Dan Snyder's meddling and that he thinks that he can make things better by continuing to be a part of the decision making

granted, we're doing things a little differently but it's still the "same ole same ole" bottom third of the league franchise, year in, year out - mostly bottom 5

I'm not whining - I'm just pointing out the reality of what we can expect each and every season until this idiot owner stops meddling

Like I said, I'll be surprised if he let's the NFL guys take over here and we see improvement this season but I will not be gloating when we see the same results

I'd also be surprised if Cousins signs a LTD - the main reason being because he has not been treated well by the little weasel owner

riggofan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote: insanity is simply described as doing the same thing and expecting a different result

That's also the definition of practice. And people who trot out that lame quote should be kicked in the balls publicly.

maybe your practice routine includes doing the same thing over and over but most practices I've been involved with included adding pieces as the "play" became familiar

sounds like your 'practices' were either not effective or boring

I predict we'll all die before this stupid thread dies.