Here comes the cousins talk.

[riggofan]

I cannot see Dan Snyder signing off on taking two steps backwards. To his credit he has been patient with this rebuild, especially for him. His patience is not limitless. If the team goes backwards from here both Gruden and McCloughan are on borrowed time. We don't want McCloughan on borrowed time and Gruden has been better than he is given credit for by many fans. I just think the nuclear fallout from not signing Cousins far exceeds any future benefit saving a couple of million dollars a year might provide.

Its so weird to think, but would be funny if you were right about Snyder on this one. I hope it all works out. I'm hoping they pay Cousins and focus on building the defense through the draft.

the FO is not going to structure the contract to 'save a couple of million dollars' - they need to pay him whatever it takes and ensure that they can pay all the other players as well

I didn't respond to that comment yesterday, but I doubt its "a couple million dollars". If you don't pay Cousins $22m or whatever next year, a guy like Ryan Fitzpatrick is $12m/yr. Freaking Colt McCoy is only making $3m. Do the math.

McCloughan will be given more time - Gruden needs to finish this season with 9 wins - 8 might not cut it

Anything is possible, but I haven't heard anything remotely like that concerning Gruden. He's on the third year of a five year contract, and by most accounts he is still Bruce Allen's boy. I'd argue that Gruden has significantly improved his stock over the past year and a half.

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

I cannot see Dan Snyder signing off on taking two steps backwards. To his credit he has been patient with this rebuild, especially for him. His patience is not limitless. If the team goes backwards from here both Gruden and McCloughan are on borrowed time. We don't want McCloughan on borrowed time and Gruden has been better than he is given credit for by many fans. I just think the nuclear fallout from not signing Cousins far exceeds any future benefit saving a couple of million dollars a year might provide.

Its so weird to think, but would be funny if you were right about Snyder on this one. I hope it all works out. I'm hoping they pay Cousins and focus on building the defense through the draft.

the FO is not going to structure the contract to 'save a couple of million dollars' - they need to pay him whatever it takes and ensure that they can pay all the other players as well
McCloughan will be given more time - Gruden needs to finish this season with 9 wins - 8 might not cut it

That would be a great point if that was what I said.

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

I didn't respond to that comment yesterday, but I doubt its "a couple million dollars". If you don't pay Cousins $22m or whatever next year, a guy like Ryan Fitzpatrick is $12m/yr. Freaking Colt McCoy is only making $3m. Do the math.

It is a couple of million dollars a year. There is a huge drop-off from Andy Dalton at $16MM a year to Ryan Fitzpatrick (the next highest paid QB) at $12MM a year.

Dalton signed his contract two years ago when the cap was $133MM. It was $155.27MM last season. And it's going up again.

The top 12 quarterbacks in the league (Luck, Palmer, Brees, Flacco, Rodgers, Wilson, Roethlisberger, Manning, Rivers, Newton, Ryan, Brady) are averaging salaries over $20MM a year.

The next tier of quarterbacks includes Ryan Tannehill, who signed a 4 year, $77,000,000 contract with the Miami Dolphins (2015), including a $11,500,000 signing bonus, $45,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $19,250,000.

The drop-off from there to Cutler, Romo, Bradford, Stafford, Smith, who average around $18MM a year, is only about $1.5MM.

Cousins, by any reasonable measure, is somewhere between the bottom of the top tier and the top of the second tier, which is somewhere between $18MM and $20MM a season.

He hasn't won a Super Bowl, like most of the top tier, but he has done at least as much as Ryan Tannehill, and certainly as much as the next group.

If the difference between keeping Cousins and letting him walk is paying him $20MM a year instead of $18MM a year, or $21MM a year instead of $19MM a year, they're paying him.

Cousins and his agent would have to ask for upwards of $21MM a year for the Redskins to even consider letting him walk.

[SkinsJock]

I just think the nuclear fallout from not signing Cousins far exceeds any future benefit saving a couple of million dollars a year might provide.

the FO is not going to structure the contract to 'save a couple of million dollars' - they need to pay him whatever it takes and ensure that they can pay all the other players as well

That would be a great point if that was what I said.

fair enough - however - this has been my question all along - IF the market value for Cousins is say $20M - don't you agree that this FO will pay $21M or $22M if that 'deal' means that they can also pay all the players they have or may want to add

[SkinsJock]

with the new salary cap - the Redskins can pay him and afford to pay the other players as well

The Redskins FO will only let Cousins walk if the deal restricts what they need to do

[riggofan]

I didn't respond to that comment yesterday, but I doubt its "a couple million dollars". If you don't pay Cousins $22m or whatever next year, a guy like Ryan Fitzpatrick is $12m/yr. Freaking Colt McCoy is only making $3m. Do the math.

It is a couple of million dollars a year. There is a huge drop-off from Andy Dalton at $16MM a year to Ryan Fitzpatrick (the next highest paid QB) at $12MM a year.

No, its not a couple million dollars. You're missing the point. McCloughan isn't going to let Cousins go at $22m/yr just to sign someone not as good like Jay Cutler for $18m a year. That would be stupid.

What he could decide though is that he can get the same production from McCoy and Sudfeld. Or something along those lines. A Chase Daniels type QB who only costs $7m year. Hell, Brian Hoyer for $2m/yr. That's $15-$20m to spend on other positions.

I'm not saying that this would be a good idea. I'm just saying its the argument I've been hearing.

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

I didn't respond to that comment yesterday, but I doubt its "a couple million dollars". If you don't pay Cousins $22m or whatever next year, a guy like Ryan Fitzpatrick is $12m/yr. Freaking Colt McCoy is only making $3m. Do the math.

It is a couple of million dollars a year. There is a huge drop-off from Andy Dalton at $16MM a year to Ryan Fitzpatrick (the next highest paid QB) at $12MM a year.

No, its not a couple million dollars. You're missing the point. McCloughan isn't going to let Cousins go at $22m/yr just to sign someone not as good like Jay Cutler for $18m a year. That would be stupid.

What he could decide though is that he can get the same production from McCoy and Sudfeld. Or something along those lines. A Chase Daniels type QB who only costs $7m year. Hell, Brian Hoyer for $2m/yr. That's $15-$20m to spend on other positions.

I'm not saying that this would be a good idea. I'm just saying its the argument I've been hearing.

OK. We're having two different discussions here.

I'm only talking about the difference between Cousins signing and not signing.

What you're talking about is deciding to get by with a lesser QB in order to spend more money in free agency. That doesn't sound like Scot McCloughan to me. Does it to you?

[SkinsJock]

Brady is like the 20th highest paid QB in the league. He's repeatedly cut his salary to ridiculous, below market levels, so the team could sign other players. I think he's on year three of a $9m/yr contract extension

Brady has earned $196,157,208 in his NFL career. Actual money paid. Cousins is about $175 million short of that.

OK - back to Cousins - he looks like he's going to be able to get somewhere in the vicinity of $20M-$22M (maybe more)
can the Redskins give him that and be able to pay all the other players they need to - let me add that I don't think this FO is much interested in having to bring in free agents unless they are forced to - these guys seem like they're committed to the draft

I'm not concerned about the $ - many/most QBs are getting more than they're worth - can we pay him & pay the other players?

franchises that cannot afford to fairly compensate all the players they need, do not remain competitive for very long

an average team with a really good QB is still an average team

it would be nice to have Cousins and surround him with good players - we'll get there, it will just take longer without him

[mastdark81]

Is Kirk the type that can win games with a lesser cast and make his receiving corp better or is he only able to excel in a particular system with an elite group of receivers?

22+ mil per yr is steep. Redskins always find a way though thats for sure, but can we sign MMoses for 10+mil, Djax for 9-11mil, Baker for 8+mill? Probably so, like I said we have done it before.

I think it ultimately comes down to if the front office feels Kirk is capable of leading us to a SB win. If so they will sign him, if not then I trust their decision. Sometimes taking two steps back to get your foundation right will not hurt. Not like we been knocking on the SB anyway.

[mastdark81]

The alternatives dont look good but they never do! Romo getting injured wasnt the end of the world. You all say in Scot we trust but you must dont really trust him bc you willing to pay Kirk whatever he wants cuz we are 5-3-1 and 3rd in the division.

If we lose him, I know it is bc a legitimate gm has a plan. He is probablu the best talent evaluator on paper at least since we had Bobby Beathard. He has a plan and maybe the leaks is just contract leverage.

[riggofan]

What you're talking about is deciding to get by with a lesser QB in order to spend more money in free agency. That doesn't sound like Scot McCloughan to me. Does it to you?

Nope it doesn't at all, definitely a reason I'm skeptical of that reporting. I don't think SM has any desire to be a big player in free agency.

The way you're framing it is kind of skewed though. The GM might decide that a less expensive QB (i.e. McCoy) could deliver comparable results in this system which leaves more money to spend on retaining our own players.

[riggofan]

Is Kirk the type that can win games with a lesser cast and make his receiving corp better or is he only able to excel in a particular system with an elite group of receivers?

Not sure I buy into the elite receivers stuff. Our receivers have been better than average, but there's no Julio Jones in that group. Pretty sure I saw Cousins connecting with Maurice Harris multiple times on Sunday while the elite DJax was out.

The question about the system is a good one though.

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

What you're talking about is deciding to get by with a lesser QB in order to spend more money in free agency. That doesn't sound like Scot McCloughan to me. Does it to you?

Nope it doesn't at all, definitely a reason I'm skeptical of that reporting. I don't think SM has any desire to be a big player in free agency.

The way you're framing it is kind of skewed though. The GM might decide that a less expensive QB (i.e. McCoy) could deliver comparable results in this system which leaves more money to spend on retaining our own players.

You'll have to forgive me if I laugh at the notion that any less expensive QB could deliver comparable results. What would Cousins cost right now if he were a 1st round draft pick working on his second contract?

I'll take "More than Andrew Luck for $1,000.00, Alex!"

The quarterbacks who cost less than Cousins as of right now are marginal starters at best. Every one of those teams would take Cousins over their current starter.

I can guarantee you Miami would take Cousins over Tannehill. If Tannehill is worth upwards of $19MM a year then Cousins is worth at least that much.

The Skins forced Cousins to bet on himself. Cousins did and he doubled down. And he's winning the bet.

[SkinsJock]

from what I'm 'interpreting' here - the FO may be willing to pay Cousins $18M-$20M - Cousins QB 'value' is likely $21M-$22M

If we can pay Cousins $22M and be able to pay all the other players we have and may add, there's no problem - sign him up

There is no way we give him (or any player) a contract that inhibits fairly paying all the players

IF the FO thinks he's good at $18M and that "fits" financially, then that's what we should do

Scot and this FO are not going the FA route and I very much doubt they are 'overpaying' players

[StorminMormon86]

The GM might decide that a less expensive QB (i.e. McCoy) could deliver comparable results in this system which leaves more money to spend on retaining our own players.

If he honestly believes this, IMO, he's not as smart as people make him out to be. Durability issues aside, there is no way we have the same record with McCoy as our starter this year. No way possible.

[SkinsJock]

.. The Skins forced Cousins to bet on himself. Cousins did and he doubled down. And he's winning the bet.

totally agree ... but - it appears that Cousins value to all the other franchises is different than Cousins value to this franchise

this FO has to be able to pay Cousins and all the other players - while Cousins has definitely proven his ability, the fact remains that this FO needs to make this team better and should not make the same mistake that other franchises have made in overpaying players

This FO will give Cousins as big a deal as they can and still be able to pay all the other players

it certainly looks like Cousins 'value' is going to be way up there and he should take full advantage of that

[riggofan]

You'll have to forgive me if I laugh at the notion that any less expensive QB could deliver comparable results.

hah I forgive you! Believe me, I have the same reaction as you do, but that's the story some of the beat reporters have been discussing on the radio this week. I've actually seen it suggested that freaking SUDFELD would be the next up!

Common sense tells me that this is the team positioning before contract negotiation. hope so.

[mastdark81]

Is Kirk the type that can win games with a lesser cast and make his receiving corp better or is he only able to excel in a particular system with an elite group of receivers?

Not sure I buy into the elite receivers stuff. Our receivers have been better than average, but there's no Julio Jones in that group. Pretty sure I saw Cousins connecting with Maurice Harris multiple times on Sunday while the elite DJax was out.

The question about the system is a good one though.

DJax is probably top 10 deep threat of all time. Reed is probably the best route running TE I've seen (not best but as far as route running). But I was more referring to as a group that is why I said corp. I tend to believe talent wise our Reed, DJax, Garcon, Crowder, Davis group is better as top 5 receiving threat as a group than any other group in the league. Cousins gunned those passes to Maurice Harris and thats all him on that for sure! You actually do not see that often from our west coast system much. I don't think McCoy will make that one consistently.

But anyway I was just asking is he the type that elevate his cast or is he the type that need a group as we have to be able to perform to a certain level. Every qb needs some sort of talent but I must say biased we are deeper than any crew that I have seen in the league including the Falcons.

[mastdark81]

from what I'm 'interpreting' here - the FO may be willing to pay Cousins $18M-$20M - Cousins QB 'value' is likely $21M-$22M

If we can pay Cousins $22M and be able to pay all the other players we have and may add, there's no problem - sign him up

There is no way we give him (or any player) a contract that inhibits fairly paying all the players

IF the FO thinks he's good at $18M and that "fits" financially, then that's what we should do

Scot and this FO are not going the FA route and I very much doubt they are 'overpaying' players

And yes this is what I feel is the case. Think about it. We drafted Josh Doctson b/c he was the best player available, however another incentive in them making the pick I feel is because they know they won't be able to afford both Garcon and DJax. They are factoring in qb money. Every good GM plans ahead and have a budget 3 years in the future. If we already had Kirk locked up for lets say an unrealistic 10mil, they may have not drafted Doctson and went defensive which was a greater need.

Right before a Morgan Moses contract ends (which I assume he will want at least 10 mil per year) I don't want them saying well lets draft a OT in the first round bc we won't be able to afford him. I would like for them to have budgeted to sign Moses and had enough space and be able to draft at another position of need. That is my thoughts.

[mastdark81]

You'll have to forgive me if I laugh at the notion that any less expensive QB could deliver comparable results.

hah I forgive you! Believe me, I have the same reaction as you do, but that's the story some of the beat reporters have been discussing on the radio this week. I've actually seen it suggested that freaking SUDFELD would be the next up!

Common sense tells me that this is the team positioning before contract negotiation. hope so.

I think this is the case but people scoffing at the notion that Sudfeld cannot be an answer is crazy to me too b/c I think most felt that way about Cousins when he was drafted. Shanahan loved Cousins and believed in a 4th rd guy and you could have that same feeling with McCloughan and Sudfeld. Who thought Cousins would be the starter? Sudfeld was a MAN in college from what I remember and honestly didn't have alot of talent around him.

Some GMs I'm sure would have selected Sudfeld over Cousins if they both came out at the same time, however personally I believe Cousins excelled for 4 years compared to Sudfeld having just a few good years in college. Liked them both.

Don't sleep that is all i'm saying.

[riggofan]

I think this is the case but people scoffing at the notion that Sudfeld cannot be an answer is crazy to me too b/c I think most felt that way about Cousins when he was drafted.

Sure, anything is possible. But I'm not scoffing at the idea that Sudfeld could be a decent player. I'm scoffing that the alternative to Cousins would be to turn the offense over to a second year, third string, sixth round pick who has played zero regular season snaps. I don't care how much McCloughan likes him, I don't remotely buy that.

[SkinsJock]

.. this is what I feel is the case. We drafted Josh Doctson b/c he was the best player available, however another incentive in them making the pick I feel is because they know they won't be able to afford both Garcon and DJax. They are factoring in qb money. Every good GM plans ahead and have a budget 3 years in the future. If we already had Kirk locked up for lets say an unrealistic 10mil, they may have not drafted Doctson and went defensive which was a greater need.

Right before a Morgan Moses contract ends (which I assume he will want at least 10 mil per year) I don't want them saying well lets draft a OT in the first round bc we won't be able to afford him. I would like for them to have budgeted to sign Moses and had enough space and be able to draft at another position of need. That is my thoughts.

This FO does not and will not draft players for need
and
this FO was not comfortable in giving Cousins a long term deal - this will cost the Redskins a lot of money but they now have a much better idea of what Cousins is worth - Sudfeld has some value but not as a starting QB in the next 2 years, at least ...

DarthMonk has just posted this in another thread ... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43874

so - this FO will be able to give Cousins a huge deal and still be able (financially) to continue to follow their game plan

we are very fortunate that we now have people in charge that have a plan to make the franchise better and know how to execute it

[SkinsJock]

I'm not sure that we'll keep both Pierre and DeSean - but we could

[mastdark81]

I think this is the case but people scoffing at the notion that Sudfeld cannot be an answer is crazy to me too b/c I think most felt that way about Cousins when he was drafted.

Sure, anything is possible. But I'm not scoffing at the idea that Sudfeld could be a decent player. I'm scoffing that the alternative to Cousins would be to turn the offense over to a second year, third string, sixth round pick who has played zero regular season snaps. I don't care how much McCloughan likes him, I don't remotely buy that.

No I feel you and you are right most of the time success won't happen overnight but it could. Look at Dak prescott or even RG3 when he was a rookie. It happens. By the way you think we have what it takes anyway to win a Super Bowl within a few years? If so then it would make sense to go with the steady guy and overpay him a lil for that chance. I honestly think we are at least a few years away because the lack of real talent on defense. With that said, if we did get an alternative qb he would have time to improve. It is not like Cousins is really killing it out there, he is not taking it to teams...he is taking what is given to him in a short passing game that throw in bootlegs every now and then. Middle of the pack as far as quarterback rating I believe.

[mastdark81]

.. this is what I feel is the case. We drafted Josh Doctson b/c he was the best player available, however another incentive in them making the pick I feel is because they know they won't be able to afford both Garcon and DJax. They are factoring in qb money. Every good GM plans ahead and have a budget 3 years in the future. If we already had Kirk locked up for lets say an unrealistic 10mil, they may have not drafted Doctson and went defensive which was a greater need.

Right before a Morgan Moses contract ends (which I assume he will want at least 10 mil per year) I don't want them saying well lets draft a OT in the first round bc we won't be able to afford him. I would like for them to have budgeted to sign Moses and had enough space and be able to draft at another position of need. That is my thoughts.

This FO does not and will not draft players for need
and
this FO was not comfortable in giving Cousins a long term deal - this will cost the Redskins a lot of money but they now have a much better idea of what Cousins is worth - Sudfeld has some value but not as a starting QB in the next 2 years, at least ...

DarthMonk has just posted this in another thread ... http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43874

so - this FO will be able to give Cousins a huge deal and still be able (financially) to continue to follow their game plan

we are very fortunate that we now have people in charge that have a plan to make the franchise better and know how to execute it

I get it but trust me there is a balance and it is not a hard sale best player available like they say. When they say best player available on their board their not going to draft 3 offensive tackles if those are the best on their board in the 1st 3 rounds you hear what I'm saying? If it is close they will go with need. For example I hear Ryan Kelly and Doctson was their targets. They may rate Doctson a tad higher but since it was close they were going to take Ryan Kelly. Kelly was chosen by another team therefore they went Doctson.

If Cousins is overpaid in their mind, there is no evidence that we can't keep a contending team (although most teams don't do win SB's with their qb getting a blockbuster deal) but I can almost guarantee that some of the players on this team will have to be restructured or let go because of the extra 4-5 mil they did not budget for. May not be a big deal at all. We shall see.