The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I think Grudens' boneheaded stupid gadget play 'on side' kick is what cost the game. What was he thinking? Is he stupid enough to think we would actually get the ball? Is he that feeble? The defense did exactly what they should do and the result is that we have the ball on our 1 yard line and inside the 10yard line for the next 2 following series? That is what he did by calling the 'on side' kick.
Seattles' staff is giddy with delight that he called that play.
I doubt Morris touched the ball more than 15 times, premier running back, one of the best in the game sits on the bench.
Unbelievable.
Its a wonder the team does as well as it does.

oj wrote:I think Grudens' boneheaded stupid gadget play 'on side' kick is what cost the game. What was he thinking? Is he stupid enough to think we would actually get the ball?

barf. I think this is just lame second guessing. We clearly needed SOME kind of game changer if we wanted to beat that team. We didn't get any turnovers. I can't blame the coach for giving the onside kick a try. You know full well that you and every other fair weather fan would be kissing his butt this morning if he'd surprised the Seahawks with the onside kick and got that ball.

I don't agree that it remotely "cost us the game", but yeah it did end up hurting us in field position through the second half.

My two complaints about the game were:

1) I give Haz credit for adjusting, but this is another game where the defense just looked unprepared to start. The first drive or two by the Seahawks were just ridiculous. Like they had no idea Wilson might run the ball.

2) IMO this is another game that we lost mainly because of special teams. I just don't understand what the problem is there. We didn't get to return a single kickoff because they booted the ball out of the back of the endzone everytime. On the flip side, we were so scared to kick anywhere near Harvin that we pooched every kickoff and basically spotted them the ball at the 35 yard line. WTF??

We allowed two 20+ yard punt returns. Got beat on a fake field goal and didn't execute the onside kick.

I didn't have a problem with the onside kick at all. We had 1 sustained drive in that game and showed no capability of driving the length of the field so we needed something like the onside kick or a turnover. We lost the game because we aren't good enough in all 3 phases of the game. We can't kickoff and pin teams back, we can't cover punts although it appears we may have found a punter and we don't generate much in the ST return games. We couldn't run the ball and we couldn't stop Seattle from running the ball. Orakpo lost containment countless times crashing down on Lynch and we didn't have anyone athletic enough to match him once he got in the open field, Wilson was the biggest difference in this game IMO. This team needs an attitude adjustment, I'm reading on the THN homepage how Orakpo's talking about how they went toe to toe with the defending SB champs and that's such B.S. This game wasn't that close and if our players are drawing moral victories that's sad to me, that's for fans to do lol. We have good players and guys such as Rak should be leaders and should be pissed off. We need someone, more than one probably, on the defensive side of the ball to be a leader and show some emotion and be pissed off about all the losing. Someone who's gonna get the guys fired up out on the field and on the sidelines and someone who's gonna bring a nasty attitude to the field to let the other team know this is gonna be a tough game , i do love Hatcher however. I like Gruden but hearing the team was over confident against the Giants and now hearing Rak feels good about going toe to toe makes me sick and makes me curious about the mental toughness of this team.

Snout wrote:How I long for the old days, back when the Redskins had no excitement on draft day because Bobby Beathard had already traded the top three draft picks to other teams in exchange for proven players. Despite having those three Super Bowl rings during the Gibbs years, most of those teams were not dominant teams. They were "very good" teams that typically won it in years when the other powerhouses had an off year. I remember one broadcast where John Madden quoted Joe Gibbs as saying "We want to be one of the 'lookout teams' as in 'Lookout for the Redskins.'" As good as we were, we were not feared as much as New York and San Francisco. We never needed a savior. We just needed some guys on the team to step up their games.

Part of what has changed in the Snyder era is that we now need a superstar to carry us. Griffin or Cousins or Orakpo needs to be the savior. And every year the problem is the same: The Redskins have no depth. Hmm. Maybe there is a connection there?

Stop overpaying. Get a team of all above-average guys and see if a few of them can step up their games. Shun the superstar saviors who just give us one heartbreak season after another.

I agree with most of your points except the highlighted portion. The '91 team was arguably the best team in the history of the NFL, and the '82 team (SB losers, granted) set a scoring record that lasted almost two decades. The biggest difference in the Gibbs years from the present, was they were built from the trenches. We don't need superstars at the skill positions to win. If we could build two solid lines, we could be contenders.

HELL YEAH! - we need linemen, both offensive and defensive ...

this is a team game and those guys set the tone, big time

OT: But the Washington team that did have a chance to win last night did so. Way to go Nats!

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:

Kilmer72 wrote:
Okay let's talk wins and losses After his 2012 injury Griffin is 3-11 and looks utterly pathetic. His hapless play cost the Skins the Texan's game, Cousins would have won it.

Had he played tonight Griffin would've been sacked 6-7 times and gotten battered drifting out of the pocket to the right like he does when he tries to remember what they told him to do in practice. Mercifully, his more able teammate played and made a game of it.

There are 11 more games, I think Couisins will put together a nice string of wins and give the new staff something to build on going into the draft.

I admire your optimistic posts these days.. from doomsday filled garbage to churching up your boy no matter what. I find it ironic that you bash any rgiii supporters and then wear your Kirk goggles inspite of poor performance after poor performance.

I think everyone can agree that the TEAM is the problem not the qb.. you can sit there and say that rgiii wouldve completed less then cousins ~58% and presume hed be sacked all night just as I can say he wouldve made the easy throws captain Kirk MISSED.. AND would've put his legs to use like Wilson did prologngin drives giving our D some rest and winning the game. Its fun to guess... I KNOW rgiii wouldn't have layed the egg Kirk did last Thursday. . And I also know that he wouldve hit a wide open Garcon vs Philadelphia to keep us in the game at the end..

Kirk didnt play well.. our D stomped the seahawks in the third and we couldnt getnout of our side of the field. Cousins did ok in the fourth- garbage time? Vs a lax/ worn out D? Three tds were called back for Harvin- lets not pretend this game was "close"- ok?

Now I have the luxury of being a supporter of BOTH qbs.. and I see things differently. I see a game where had it been Robert w the exact same performance, youd be frothing at the mouth in his bashing! Youd call him a bust and say Cousins this Cousins that.. FACT is Cousins is a good BACKUP. Robert is still the man who got us back to the playoffs IN SPITE of the poor team around him.

I understand your optimism as I share it.. I just cant stand the give Cousins a chance but Robert is a bum talk. Now that Robert is getting what Cousins had in ncaa (pro style pocket qb guidance) its not fair to either qb to write them off.

I predict a grossman roller coaster ride until Robert is healthy. We play dullass and he wins. Cousins suites up we probably lose.
this team isnt sb material, yet.

Open comp for qb next off-season?so be it. But the Wilson that the announcers were gushing over is exactly what Rgiii can do. Kirk can fire off target missiles all day- but thats only good enough to beat bottom of the league teams.

I hate to rant and jump all over- but come on man, give it a rest. Lets look at Cousins objectively until Robert is back and see what happens. The Rgiii wouldve lost worse is plum dumb stupid and childish as can be. Honestly the O was slow to start and made some nosie when it was too little too late EXACTLY like the woes of last year.
/rant off

So much to comment about!!!!

1. then wear your Kirk goggles inspite of poor performance after poor performance. --- would you consider that "poor"? Cousins went 21-36, 287 yards, and 2 TDs against arguably the best DEF in the NFL. That isn't "poor".

2. I think everyone can agree that the TEAM is the problem not the qb. --- Agree. We have serious issues at OL, DL, and DB. We need to address those.

3. Cousins did ok in the fourth- garbage time? Vs a lax/ worn out D? -- Really??? Come on. Nothing is considered "garbage time" when it is a 1 SCORE GAME in the 4th. And the "worn D" --- SEA beat us in TOP by 10 MINS!!!! These types of comments make you look completely subjective and foolish.

4. Now I have the luxury of being a supporter of BOTH qbs. --- Are you????? Just because you say it doesn't make it true -- at least supporting them equally. You may "support" both QBs simply because they are both redskins, but you CLEARLY support one over the other. After all, you championed RGIII (saying he "wasn't perfect but played good in most areas") after his 29-37, 267 yard, 0 TD, 3 sack, 29.7 QBR, 6 point performance against HOU..... then you say Cousins' 21-36, 287 yards, 2 TD, 1 sack, 49.4 QBR, 17 point performance against a superior DEF was "poor" and he "didn't play well". If that isn't subjective and one-sided --- I have no clue what is.

5. We play dullass and he wins. Cousins suites up we probably lose. -- Those are strong words, considering the fact RGIII will be coming back from injury and is 3-11 as a starter since 2012. After all, the redskins have the worst record in the NFL since the end of 2012. I am not sure what makes you logically think we will win @ DAL.

6. this team isnt sb material, yet. -- Dude, I have to love your optimism. I have been told I can be overly critical and hyper-analyze. I sometimes wish I could have your outlook -- and I say that seriously.

7. But the Wilson that the announcers were gushing over is exactly what Rgiii can do. -- They were, but what everyone in media land was discussing -- in particular on Mike & MIke this am --- was that what makes Wilson so dynamic is his ability to AVOID contact. That is what separates the 2. Until RGIII can do that, he is only similar to Wilson in theory.

8. lets look at Cousins objectively until Robert is back and see what happens. --- Yes PLEASE!!! I'd love to see you do that. Hey -- I do like you as a poster, but you aren't objective when it comes to RGIII and Cousins. Just tell it like it is. You have different standards for the 2.

9. Honestly the O was slow to start and made some nosie when it was too little too late EXACTLY like the woes of last year. -- We made it a one score game with 4 mins to play; a DEF stop and we have the ball with more than 2 mins. It wasnt' too little too late. If that were RGIII, you would have been championing his resilentcy and how the DEF failed him......

Cousins and RGIII are vastly different QBs. I personally thought Cousins' performance vs SEA was average. I don't think you can say it was poor. Our running game was atrcious, my boy Morris had one of the worst games of his career, and we had to rely on Cousins to make plays --- and he made plays. We had horrible field position the entire game (although the OFF just needs to overcome that and I don't consider that a factor). SEA's game plan was solid. The refs kept us in the game --- the first 2 TD flag calls were valid; the PF on #77 wasn't. SEA is clearly the superior team in all areas. The redskins FO should take notes on how to build a team from SEA -- build via the draft, find value in rounds 3-6, build depth....... then again, in order to do that you need to have competency in the FO and support from ownership...... oh well.

markshark84 wrote:Cousins and RGIII are vastly different QBs. I personally thought Cousins' performance vs SEA was average. I don't think you can say it was poor.

The guy didn't throw any picks. He threw for nearly 300 yards and two TDs including two spectacular big plays to DJax against supposedly the best secondary in the league. Average??? I think we all have to give Cousins credit for playing pretty well last night. And like you said, he did that without any help from the running game at all.

Unfortunately he was starting opposite Russell Wilson who was playing out of his freaking mind last night.

I thought Cousins' problem mostly was being inconsistent. Some of those third down passes that he misses end up really hurting us.

riggofan wrote:
I thought Cousins' problem mostly was being inconsistent. Some of those third down passes that he misses end up really hurting us.

Apparently he doesn't do so well on 3rd down overall. Saw this from ESPN today:

Let’s start with Cousins. Quarterbacks earn their money in the red zone and on third down. Too often, though, that’s been a troubling down as Cousins ranks last in the NFL among quarterbacks who have appeared in at least three games with a 49.8 passer rating on this down. Cousins has completed 21-of-37 passes for 204 yards, no touchdowns and two interceptions.

In three starts last season, Cousins had a 64.5 passer rating -- that was 25th in the NFL during that stretch. He completed 24 of 39 passes for 224 yards, one touchdown and two interceptions.

Ouch. Not all is his fault of course, but last is...ugly.

markshark84 wrote:Hey -- I do like you as a poster, but you aren't objective when it comes to RGIII and Cousins. Just tell it like it is. You have different standards for the 2.

I don't want to get in the middle of your debate, but he's supposed to have different standards for the two QBs. RG3 was drafted to be the starter, lead the team and win games, while Cousins was drafted to be his back-up. Cousins' only job is to hold the ship afloat until Robert comes back, and then it's back to holding the clipboard for him.

riggofan wrote:

markshark84 wrote:Cousins and RGIII are vastly different QBs. I personally thought Cousins' performance vs SEA was average. I don't think you can say it was poor.

The guy didn't throw any picks. He threw for nearly 300 yards and two TDs including two spectacular big plays to DJax against supposedly the best secondary in the league. Average??? I think we all have to give Cousins credit for playing pretty well last night. And like you said, he did that without any help from the running game at all.

Unfortunately he was starting opposite Russell Wilson who was playing out of his freaking mind last night.

I thought Cousins' problem mostly was being inconsistent. Some of those third down passes that he misses end up really hurting us.

I would consider last night's performance by Cousins as being average. He had a 49.4 QBR -- a stat I have come to appreciate -- which is pretty horrendous. I think his inability to convert 3rd downs had a good deal to do with the low QBR. We only scored 17 points, which is below my self-proclaimed 23 offensive points scored "mendoza line". We did have bad field position throughout the game, but much of that can be attributed to our offense not being able to move the ball out to mid-field. That being said, there were also some drops last night by our receivers --- I recall Roberts, Paulson, Paul, and Jackson having costly drops.

All in all, I wasn't unhappy, but I wasn't happy with Cousins' performance. I WAS unhappy with the run game; I WAS unhappy with the WR/TE drops; I WAS unhappy with ST support; I was to a degree unhappy with the playcalling. Cousins made some very good plays and honestly, he didn't make that many "poor" plays. And the fact Cousins didn't throw any INTs doesn't impress me. The SEA DEF has a total of 2 INTs this year.

Personally, I didn't think Cousins got much help from the rest of the team -- but he got enough to have a better game than he had. I recall watching the game last night and thinking how if I were QB, I would have been chewing certain OFF players out on the sideline in a similar manner to how Brady occasionally does it.

But you have to play the hand you are dealt. Cousins had to make it work and he wasn't able to.

fabe wrote:

markshark84 wrote:Hey -- I do like you as a poster, but you aren't objective when it comes to RGIII and Cousins. Just tell it like it is. You have different standards for the 2.

I don't want to get in the middle of your debate, but he's supposed to have different standards for the two QBs. RG3 was drafted to be the starter, lead the team and win games, while Cousins was drafted to be his back-up. Cousins' only job is to hold the ship afloat until Robert comes back, and then it's back to holding the clipboard for him.

Clearly that was the plan in 2012 but after the serious injuries and apparent loss of mobility I dunno if that is the game plan anymore and neither do you. We'll have to see how things play out over the rest of the season.

I won't be surprised if the guy that is relatively slow upstairs is the one holding the clipboard. Cousins looks like Gruden only needs to fine tune him to limit the interceptions and improve consistency because he is serviceable in Gruden's offense. Many of you on this board are convinced Cousins has a low ceiling, but you're not Gruden. Cousins can make Gruden's playbook come alive and I bet Jay likes it.

Griffin on the other hand is a real project. Should Gruden let Griffin run the read option until the next injury, keep him in pocket and run Gruden's WCO or some hybrid? In addition to lacking basic QB skills there is the issue of Griffin's durability, how fragile is he now? Was he just unlucky with the ankle or does he have delicate legs? Thoroughbred horses are amazing but they have delicate legs and because of are unsuitable for ranch work. Griffin's durability is an issue the Skins have to factor into their plans.

OldSchool wrote:Clearly that was the plan in 2012 but after the serious injuries and apparent loss of mobility I dunno if that is the game plan anymore and neither do you. We'll have to see how things play out over the rest of the season.

I won't be surprised if the guy that is relatively slow upstairs is the one holding the clipboard. Cousins looks like Gruden only needs to fine tune him to limit the interceptions and improve consistency because he is serviceable in Gruden's offense. Many of you on this board are convinced Cousins has a low ceiling, but you're not Gruden. Cousins can make Gruden's playbook come alive and I bet Jay likes it.

Griffin on the other hand is a real project. Should Gruden let Griffin run the read option until the next injury, keep him in pocket and run Gruden's WCO or some hybrid? In addition to lacking basic QB skills there is the issue of Griffin's durability, how fragile is he now? Was he just unlucky with the ankle or does he have delicate legs? Thoroughbred horses are amazing but they have delicate legs and because of are unsuitable for ranch work. Griffin's durability is an issue the Skins have to factor into their plans.

I'm not speaking for everyone, but I've never been convinced that Cousins had a low ceiling. I've been a fan of him since he played in Michigan State, and I've been saying to myself over the years that he could be a good starting QB on some other team. Sure, he could become one with the 'Skins, but his chances of becoming the full-time starter, in my opinion, are low (at least for now). If Cousins or Griffin were to go to other teams in the future, I would still be fans of both of them because I think they are both good QBs.

There's a lot of speculation in your final point, and I don't know how to respond to that, so I'll just quote you in saying "We'll have to see how things play out over the rest of the season."

Cousins is showing that he's a good QB - I am not convinced that Griffin cannot be the type of QB that Gruden wants him to be

PLUS

Griffin has a better arm, better speed and mobility, better leadership and he inspires better play from everyone when he's "on"

Cousins is a good QB and a really good back up QB

SkinsJock wrote:Cousins is showing that he's a good QB - I am not convinced that Griffin cannot be the type of QB that Gruden wants him to be

PLUS

Griffin has a better arm, better speed and mobility, better leadership and he inspires better play from everyone when he's "on"

Cousins is a good QB and a really good back up QB

I suppose you are referring to the post 2012 injury Griffin that we saw in 2013 and 2014. My take is Griffin has a stronger arm than Cousins. I don't know if Griffin's arm strength is elite like Cutler's but I remember him throwing it 80 yards so it is certainly stronger than most NFL QBs and Kirk's. Cousins has a strong enough arm as he demonstrated against Seattle and Philly on bombs to Jackson, but not elite arm strength.

Accuracy is a more complicated discussion. Cousins throws before the break to the spot the receiver is expected to be whereas I think Griffin isn't able to do this yet and waits until after the break and targets the receiver. Throwing receivers open assumes the receiver runs a proper route and timing becomes critical. I think both QBs are accurate enough and have good arms but agree with you that Robert has a better arm because it is stronger.

Better speed and mobility. Cousins is certainly mobile enough and throws well on roll outs so he more than meets the standard for NFL mobility. Griffin had really off the chart mobility in 2012 before his injury. Since then it's not clear to me how much of his speed and agility is left. He doesn't look as quick and has been caught by linebackers/defensive ends this year so I don't know. I would expect Griffin to beat Cousins in a foot race but I honestly don't know if Griffin has better than average mobility now. I'm not asserting it's gone but I haven't seen use it since 2012 and he looks gimpy at times.

Better leadership. On this point I respectfully disagree because members on team have called Griffin out for failing to take ownership of mistakes and failures. No one could say that of Kirk and it's evident when he's on the field he has the respect and trust of the team. Kirk has a delicate job to provide effective leadership for the team but until he is named the full time starter for at least the balance of the season it's hard to be as assertive as he would be but I think Cousins' has the edge here.

Inspiring better play when he is on. I give the nod to Cousins unless we are we talking about 2012 Griffin. Prior to getting to getting hurt Griffin's running and scrambling were a game changer that elevated the team. In 2013 and 2014 I don't see how he is that impactful.

Cousins on the other hand does make the offensive line play better. I think even you would agree Kirk is easier to block for because he releases it quickly and stays in the pocket which explains the reduction in sacks and holding calls when Kirk is playing. Kirk also sees the whole field so the 3rd and 4th options need to be alert because the ball might be coming, I think that is another way he helps his teammates play better.

Now let's look at what is really important for QB's the mental game. This is easily the most important quarterback function, it dwarfs everything else a quarterback does. Competent QBs get their teams out bad plays and protection schemes and into good. Kirk quickly and accurately identifies the defense, the open guy and pulls the trigger. Cousins has already jumped the biggest hurdle, Griffin is a question mark.

Can Griffin learn? The returns thus far aren't good. Does every intelligent person have the ability to learn how read and process at NFL speed? Maybe not and after all the investment of time by two coaching staffs it is fair to question if Griffin can be taught. The Shannys and now Gruden worked with Griffin and he hasn't progressed much if at all.

Cousins does thus very well and very fast so he is already serviceable running Gruden's WCO. With Kirk the issue is can he be coached up from being serviceable to be very good or great. Who knows today but I am hopeful. You may think Kirk has a low ceiling I don't. As for Griffin I think it fair to question if Robert can learn how to process fast enough to be functional in a WCO and if he is durable enough to run a hybrid.

Durability. Cousins no issue, Griffin major question mark.

^ I need to be honest.. if you didn't repeatedly assert that Griffin "doesn't have what it takes up stairs" "cant process information" basically saying he isn't smart enough to be a qb, id be able to have a conversation with you. Constantly saying he is dumb leads me to believe its the poster not the qb.

RG3 has made changes at the line and hit his 3rd + look all offseason and his limited play this season... So to say he cant is false.

To say that Cousins finds the open man and pulls the trigger is kind of churching him up in an area I feel he needs to work on the most! Look at NYG as a PRIME example of making quick choices- but the WRONG choice. Just because he made it fast doesn't make it any less wrong.

One is a back up quality qb who can certainly improve to starting caliber.. the other is a starting quality qb who broke records- not just with his legs mind you- who has a stronger arm and better accuracy.

Even if you throw his runs away, I like what Robert brings to the table over Cousins skill set- getting rid of the ball faster can be taught... Throwing it more accurately and/or further is much harder to "teach".

markshark84 wrote:

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:

Kilmer72 wrote:
Okay let's talk wins and losses After his 2012 injury Griffin is 3-11 and looks utterly pathetic. His hapless play cost the Skins the Texan's game, Cousins would have won it.

Had he played tonight Griffin would've been sacked 6-7 times and gotten battered drifting out of the pocket to the right like he does when he tries to remember what they told him to do in practice. Mercifully, his more able teammate played and made a game of it.

There are 11 more games, I think Couisins will put together a nice string of wins and give the new staff something to build on going into the draft.

I admire your optimistic posts these days.. from doomsday filled garbage to churching up your boy no matter what. I find it ironic that you bash any rgiii supporters and then wear your Kirk goggles inspite of poor performance after poor performance.

I think everyone can agree that the TEAM is the problem not the qb.. you can sit there and say that rgiii wouldve completed less then cousins ~58% and presume hed be sacked all night just as I can say he wouldve made the easy throws captain Kirk MISSED.. AND would've put his legs to use like Wilson did prologngin drives giving our D some rest and winning the game. Its fun to guess... I KNOW rgiii wouldn't have layed the egg Kirk did last Thursday. . And I also know that he wouldve hit a wide open Garcon vs Philadelphia to keep us in the game at the end..

Kirk didnt play well.. our D stomped the seahawks in the third and we couldnt getnout of our side of the field. Cousins did ok in the fourth- garbage time? Vs a lax/ worn out D? Three tds were called back for Harvin- lets not pretend this game was "close"- ok?

Now I have the luxury of being a supporter of BOTH qbs.. and I see things differently. I see a game where had it been Robert w the exact same performance, youd be frothing at the mouth in his bashing! Youd call him a bust and say Cousins this Cousins that.. FACT is Cousins is a good BACKUP. Robert is still the man who got us back to the playoffs IN SPITE of the poor team around him.

I understand your optimism as I share it.. I just cant stand the give Cousins a chance but Robert is a bum talk. Now that Robert is getting what Cousins had in ncaa (pro style pocket qb guidance) its not fair to either qb to write them off.

I predict a grossman roller coaster ride until Robert is healthy. We play dullass and he wins. Cousins suites up we probably lose.
this team isnt sb material, yet.

Open comp for qb next off-season?so be it. But the Wilson that the announcers were gushing over is exactly what Rgiii can do. Kirk can fire off target missiles all day- but thats only good enough to beat bottom of the league teams.

I hate to rant and jump all over- but come on man, give it a rest. Lets look at Cousins objectively until Robert is back and see what happens. The Rgiii wouldve lost worse is plum dumb stupid and childish as can be. Honestly the O was slow to start and made some nosie when it was too little too late EXACTLY like the woes of last year.
/rant off

So much to comment about!!!!

1. then wear your Kirk goggles inspite of poor performance after poor performance. --- would you consider that "poor"? Cousins went 21-36, 287 yards, and 2 TDs against arguably the best DEF in the NFL. That isn't "poor".

2. I think everyone can agree that the TEAM is the problem not the qb. --- Agree. We have serious issues at OL, DL, and DB. We need to address those.

3. Cousins did ok in the fourth- garbage time? Vs a lax/ worn out D? -- Really??? Come on. Nothing is considered "garbage time" when it is a 1 SCORE GAME in the 4th. And the "worn D" --- SEA beat us in TOP by 10 MINS!!!! These types of comments make you look completely subjective and foolish.

4. Now I have the luxury of being a supporter of BOTH qbs. --- Are you????? Just because you say it doesn't make it true -- at least supporting them equally. You may "support" both QBs simply because they are both redskins, but you CLEARLY support one over the other. After all, you championed RGIII (saying he "wasn't perfect but played good in most areas") after his 29-37, 267 yard, 0 TD, 3 sack, 29.7 QBR, 6 point performance against HOU..... then you say Cousins' 21-36, 287 yards, 2 TD, 1 sack, 49.4 QBR, 17 point performance against a superior DEF was "poor" and he "didn't play well". If that isn't subjective and one-sided --- I have no clue what is.

5. We play dullass and he wins. Cousins suites up we probably lose. -- Those are strong words, considering the fact RGIII will be coming back from injury and is 3-11 as a starter since 2012. After all, the redskins have the worst record in the NFL since the end of 2012. I am not sure what makes you logically think we will win @ DAL.

6. this team isnt sb material, yet. -- Dude, I have to love your optimism. I have been told I can be overly critical and hyper-analyze. I sometimes wish I could have your outlook -- and I say that seriously.

7. But the Wilson that the announcers were gushing over is exactly what Rgiii can do. -- They were, but what everyone in media land was discussing -- in particular on Mike & MIke this am --- was that what makes Wilson so dynamic is his ability to AVOID contact. That is what separates the 2. Until RGIII can do that, he is only similar to Wilson in theory.

8. lets look at Cousins objectively until Robert is back and see what happens. --- Yes PLEASE!!! I'd love to see you do that. Hey -- I do like you as a poster, but you aren't objective when it comes to RGIII and Cousins. Just tell it like it is. You have different standards for the 2.

9. Honestly the O was slow to start and made some nosie when it was too little too late EXACTLY like the woes of last year. -- We made it a one score game with 4 mins to play; a DEF stop and we have the ball with more than 2 mins. It wasnt' too little too late. If that were RGIII, you would have been championing his resilentcy and how the DEF failed him......

Cousins and RGIII are vastly different QBs. I personally thought Cousins' performance vs SEA was average. I don't think you can say it was poor. Our running game was atrcious, my boy Morris had one of the worst games of his career, and we had to rely on Cousins to make plays --- and he made plays. We had horrible field position the entire game (although the OFF just needs to overcome that and I don't consider that a factor). SEA's game plan was solid. The refs kept us in the game --- the first 2 TD flag calls were valid; the PF on #77 wasn't. SEA is clearly the superior team in all areas. The redskins FO should take notes on how to build a team from SEA -- build via the draft, find value in rounds 3-6, build depth....... then again, in order to do that you need to have competency in the FO and support from ownership...... oh well.

Sorry for the delay- I wanted to be reply appropriately and couldn't do so from my cell...

so here we go!

1. You may be correct that his play wasn't POOR.. but at times it WAS painful. ie missing open receivers throwing behind Roberts, which people called a drop. His HORRIBLE third down play... the inability to move the ball in the third when we needed him to. Hitting open LBs in the chest counts as an INT in my assertion of his play- even though the stat line doesn't show it. I can respectfully change it to average or borderline mediocre. Before the last scoring drive in the 4th quarter his stats were rather dismal- ~50% completion rate and some rather poor passes attributed to my score of "poor."

2. OL is, imo, by far the worst.. our MLBs should be responsible for getting Wilson down before he scratches off a 45 yard run- id say they also get the blame for plays like their last 3rd down conversion when Kerrigan was chasing Wilson down and he tossed it to a wide open Lynch. I think Perry has taking a HUGE step back this year. I think our DBs aren't as bad as last year- need some continuity to develop, but losing our #1 CB definitely hurt the unit.

3. I should have been more detailed in my "garbage time?" question- it was more in reference to how people wrote off Roberts decent stats last year... bare with me here- I think that Seattle "gave" Kirk some of that 4th quarter play. If you read Sherman's spew on Garcon you'll see that Seattle felt like they were up 40-10, and honestly they probably should have been (three TDs for Harvin called back). If you minus the one scoring drive in the fourth- Kirks stats look a lot worse. His inability to do that when Seattle's D was still playing hard in the 3rd is kind of what I'm getting at. it was a question nonetheless

4. I look at their play objectively and support both as our players in burgundy and gold.. I definitely feel Robert is the better qb and hope he backs that up. Bias? Of course. everyone leans more to one side then the other so that's not a surprise.
Looking at your example though- Robert had a very accurate game vs HOU (can you really say that D is much inferior?) and some very bad luck set it back. Had a quick pass been called instead of a run resulting in a rezone fumble and had Reed been the one running instead of Paul- that would've been six instead of another redzone fumble. So ya 6 points is all we got but Robert put us in position for more then that- even if you point the finger at him for the botched handoff- it was ENTIRELY his fault, like the 5 turnovers Kirk had vs NYG. I pray for an encore of Jax for Kirk, but I also know Colt McCoy probably would've had the same game vs the worse team in the NFL. He has yet to show that he can get it done in crunch time. Despite our piss poor play last year Robert already has won his debut game vs NO, beat dullass on national tv on Thanksgiving, AND won a nationally televised NFC East championship game. Kirk missing Garcon w the game on the line- and having only beaten Cleveland as a starter has me questioning if he can handle pressure.

5. Bold prediction for sure. I think Robert gives us the best chance to win vs the pukes.. they can't stop the run and a mobile qb has already had a ton of success vs them. Who ever suites up- REALLY needs to play well. This fan base doesn't have much to be happy about so far this season. A clean sweep of the pukes this year will definitely make the overall record easier to swallow!

6. One can only hope right?? haha Onnnnne day!

7. Robert has done things like Wilson did last night- the 4th down plays vs nyg in 2012 come to mind. In his defense, he appeared to slide and avoid hits much better in the Jaguar game. His biggest problem imho has been trying to do to much by himself to make a play. Unfortunately we found out last year that who ever plays the position here almost has to go above and beyond in order to get the W- am I wrong??

8. I guess you are right to a degree.. clearly I want Rg to be the dude again.. I also want Cousins to play lights out tho! Having two killer qbs would be a great problem to have! I guess I just get sick of the double standards and hypocrisy. Kirk has a game like mon and people toot his horn and paint a picture that is a little fluffed- yet had it been Bob?? FORGET IT! I just want to be realistic about Cousins play, not church it up nor play it down. Why does he get the "give him time" card but Robert (who cost a grip and also rejuvenated the fan base in 2012) doesn't? They are both third year players.. and both are in a new system. YES its a system Kirk has more exp in from ncaa, but that doesn't mean Rg3 shouldn't be allowed the same patience.

9. While we did get to within one score.. I cant say I ever felt the game was close. I DID get that all to familiar glimmer of hope when we scored late... but the score board was not a very good measurement of how we played. I remember when Philly(?) blowing us out last year then Robert getting some points on the board late making it close, the majority of posters were on griff for the slow start etc etc. Maybe I have some of that resentment pent up and want to return the favor! lmao

In all honesty I just feel like people are soooo hard on Rg3 but soooo forgiving with Kirk. like it just isn't a fair play. That's why I might be a little on the hard side with Kirk, playing the role of the Griff haters reversed. Regardless of who it was on Monday- I kept saying god dammit man... wtf was that?! I think a lot of people churched up his play due to the one solid drive in the 4th- but where was that all night? The John Kliem report and others paint a picture that I feel is more accurate. It was not a great outing, and he is ranked last or near last in a lot of categories. Hopefully he improves, but until then im going to calls em as I sees em

*edited

Ckrg3,

I never said Griffin was stupid, reread my post, I said that maybe even some intelligent people can't be taught to correctly process fast enough for the NFL. Perhaps being able to do so is a special kind of intelligence like a musical or artistic gift. I don't know but in any case the Redskins invested far more time trying to teach their prize draft choice and intended franchise QB how to do this and he can't while the afterthought QB does it very well. In my view masterery of the mental game and processing speed is they key success deteriment for a QB not foot speed or arm strength.

Your handle here and icon identify you as a Griffin superfan, and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm a team fan and a believer in the WCO and pocket passers and great defense. We have a WCO coach and a budding pocket passer in Cousins. I'd like like to see the Skins have Gruden work with Cousins over the next few years while they improve the defense and OL through the draft.

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:

Sorry for the delay- I wanted to be reply appropriately and couldn't do so from my cell...

so here we go!

1. You may be correct that his play wasn't POOR.. but at times it WAS painful. ie missing open receivers throwing behind Roberts, which people called a drop. His HORRIBLE third down play... the inability to move the ball in the third when we needed him to. Hitting open LBs in the chest counts as an INT in my assertion of his play- even though the stat line doesn't show it. I can respectfully change it to average or borderline mediocre. Before the last scoring drive in the 4th quarter his stats were rather dismal- ~50% completion rate and some rather poor passes attributed to my score of "poor."

2. OL is, imo, by far the worst.. our MLBs should be responsible for getting Wilson down before he scratches off a 45 yard run- id say they also get the blame for plays like their last 3rd down conversion when Kerrigan was chasing Wilson down and he tossed it to a wide open Lynch. I think Perry has taking a HUGE step back this year. I think our DBs aren't as bad as last year- need some continuity to develop, but losing our #1 CB definitely hurt the unit.

3. I should have been more detailed in my "garbage time?" question- it was more in reference to how people wrote off Roberts decent stats last year... bare with me here- I think that Seattle "gave" Kirk some of that 4th quarter play. If you read Sherman's spew on Garcon you'll see that Seattle felt like they were up 40-10, and honestly they probably should have been (three TDs for Harvin called back). If you minus the one scoring drive in the fourth- Kirks stats look a lot worse. His inability to do that when Seattle's D was still playing hard in the 3rd is kind of what I'm getting at. it was a question nonetheless

4. I look at their play objectively and support both as our players in burgundy and gold.. I definitely feel Robert is the better qb and hope he backs that up. Bias? Of course. everyone leans more to one side then the other so that's not a surprise.
Looking at your example though- Robert had a very accurate game vs HOU (can you really say that D is much inferior?) and some very bad luck set it back. Had a quick pass been called instead of a run resulting in a rezone fumble and had Reed been the one running instead of Paul- that would've been six instead of another redzone fumble. So ya 6 points is all we got but Robert put us in position for more then that- even if you point the finger at him for the botched handoff- it was ENTIRELY his fault, like the 5 turnovers Kirk had vs NYG. I pray for an encore of Jax for Kirk, but I also know Colt McCoy probably would've had the same game vs the worse team in the NFL. He has yet to show that he can get it done in crunch time. Despite our piss poor play last year Robert already has won his debut game vs NO, beat dullass on national tv on Thanksgiving, AND won a nationally televised NFC East championship game. Kirk missing Garcon w the game on the line- and having only beaten Cleveland as a starter has me questioning if he can handle pressure.

5. Bold prediction for sure. I think Robert gives us the best chance to win vs the pukes.. they can't stop the run and a mobile qb has already had a ton of success vs them. Who ever suites up- REALLY needs to play well. This fan base doesn't have much to be happy about so far this season. A clean sweep of the pukes this year will definitely make the overall record easier to swallow!

6. One can only hope right?? haha Onnnnne day!

7. Robert has done things like Wilson did last night- the 4th down plays vs nyg in 2012 come to mind. In his defense, he appeared to slide and avoid hits much better in the Jaguar game. His biggest problem imho has been trying to do to much by himself to make a play. Unfortunately we found out last year that who ever plays the position here almost has to go above and beyond in order to get the W- am I wrong??

8. I guess you are right to a degree.. clearly I want Rg to be the dude again.. I also want Cousins to play lights out tho! Having two killer qbs would be a great problem to have! I guess I just get sick of the double standards and hypocrisy. Kirk has a game like mon and people toot his horn and paint a picture that is a little fluffed- yet had it been Bob?? FORGET IT! I just want to be realistic about Cousins play, not church it up nor play it down. Why does he get the "give him time" card but Robert (who cost a grip and also rejuvenated the fan base in 2012) doesn't? They are both third year players.. and both are in a new system. YES its a system Kirk has more exp in from ncaa, but that doesn't mean Rg3 shouldn't be allowed the same patience.

9. While we did get to within one score.. I cant say I ever felt the game was close. I DID get that all to familiar glimmer of hope when we scored late... but the score board was not a very good measurement of how we played. I remember when Philly(?) blowing us out last year then Robert getting some points on the board late making it close, the majority of posters were on griff for the slow start etc etc. Maybe I have some of that resentment pent up and want to return the favor! lmao

In all honesty I just feel like people are soooo hard on Rg3 but soooo forgiving with Kirk. like it just isn't a fair play. That's why I might be a little on the hard side with Kirk, playing the role of the Griff haters reversed. Regardless of who it was on Monday- I kept saying god dammit man... wtf was that?! I think a lot of people churched up his play due to the one solid drive in the 4th- but where was that all night? The John Kliem report and others paint a picture that I feel is more accurate. It was not a great outing, and he is ranked last or near last in a lot of categories. Hopefully he improves, but until then im going to calls em as I sees em

1. Sounds good.

2. I agree with the MLB statement but would also throw in DB and OLB. Our DBs aren't as bad as last year, but they aren't close to being good or even average. I also have noticed Perry isn't as good as last year --- that being said, he has HUGE shoulders to fill.

3. The "garbage time" RGIII had last year was VASTLY different than the 4th Q against SEA. I recall the PHI game last year where he was horrible but the stats looked ok because he threw a couple TDs when we were down nearly 30. And you can't --- I repeat CAN'T --- pick and choose stats. You were doing this earlier in the year with RGIII -- but the other way around trying to take out his BAD plays. SEA's DEF was playing VERY HARD the ENTIRE game --- it is in their nature; especially when it was a 1 score game and we had momentum. To say SEA was dogging it would be an insult to SEA and WAS. And the fact they "felt" like they were up 45*-10 doesn't mean they were --- and you play the SCORE not what you feel the score is..... And 2 of those 3 calls were 100% correct and should have been called. I see no reason to discount a penalty when the penalty was 100% valid. Your #3 REALLY REALLY sounds like you are reaching for something that isn't there. You are trying to discount Cousins' stats when you do the opposite to RGIII when he plays. You are being what you say you despise: you're being totally hypocritical.

4. I find this point pretty comical only because you say you look at their performances objectively --- then you follow it up with completely subjective analysis. Being objective is taking ALL the data available and analyzing it purley based on output.

A good example --- you assert that RGIII had very accurate game against HOU, but fail to include his average pass went 3.4 yards (or was it 2.6, I forget). That is a consideration you have to make. Then you again attempt to support your "objectivity" by playing the what if game. Do you understand that the FOUNDATION of objectivity is FACTS -- not made up ficational scenarios that never happened and can't be proven. The McCoy statement --- you LITERALLY have no clue whether that's the case. After all, Rothlesburger went 26-36 for 1 TD against JAC -- not nearly as good as Cousins. And RGIII was NOT throwing the ball to Paul not Reed. And do we even know whether RGIII can get it done in crunch time? The games you provide happened a long time ago... and were before RGIII got hurt twice. We can't rely on things that happened that long ago which haven't been replicated since. That being said, I agree that there are serious concerns about Cousins' ability to perform in pressure situations.

5. If you're refering to the SF game, I also think DAL's 4 TOs, 14 points of TOs, and the ST TDs helped a little..... But I can understand why you made the statement --- I am just not sure it is accurate given Kaepernick only ran for 11 yards.

6. Absolutely!!!!

7. I think this is where we differ. I don't think we can accurately rely on the fact RGIII will ever be like he was in 2012. His play in 2013 or 2014 don't support it. He was only in for 7 plays against JAC. And you are correct in that the QB has to play very well to make up for the lack of depth and talent due to years of inept GMing.

8. I can understand that. RGIII in 2012 was simply amazing. But I honestly don't think there is a double standard. The QB position is about production. Had RGIII performed similarly to Cousins against SEA I would have actually had a HIGHER opinion since I would have considered it an improvement compared to his performances in 2013 or 2014. In general, skins fans want RGIII to succeed VERY VERY much. I personally don't consider the "new system" think an adequate excuse for poor play. You either have it or you don't. RGIII was able to come out of the gates on fire his rookie season with a new coach and system (and yes, it was a new system).

9. The SEA game was a 1 score game. I also got that glimmer, but most likely like yourself, I never thought it would come to fruition. I think I said this earlier in my post, but I also recall the PHI game and sorry to tell you, PHI went into full on prevent D. Prior to being down 33-7 and midway thru the 3rd Q, we had a total of 34 offensive yards. Once PHI went into prevent mode, we totaled close to 300 offensive yards. You can't compare the 2 games.

I'll never forget --- was once told by a coach "I am tough on talent, so be thankful I'm yelling at you". I think that also holds true for fans. There are no expectations for Cousins. We didn't sacrafice for Cousins like we did for RGIII; we didn't give up 3 #1s and a #2 for Cousins, Cousins doesn't have a $21 million contract. To hold them to the same standard would be unfair. We shouldn't expect Cousins to be as good as RGIII and we should expect RGIII to CLEARLY outperform Cousins -- which isn't happening.

3. your missing my point boss, had it been Robert itd be "junk time" but since its Kirk he is the comeback king? Where was that play all game? He did well enough to lose by two scores. awesome. Our D cant shoulder the entire blame as they held Sea to ZERO first downs in the 3rd quarter. I know we were backed up, but there were some terrible plays there and the qb gets the blame- or no?
I ASKED if it was considered garbage time. Robert got us to within one score last year, the philly game was just ONE example... people wrote off his late game stats as "garbage time" so I asked if Kirk deserved the same.

4. I already admitted im biased one way as most are- but that I want BOTH to do well. I think my HOU example is valid because Roberts play- he himself- was, while nothing heroic ala 2012, was enough to win the game. Special team fails and fumbles within the 10 yard line cost us the game. Its a fine example of people, yourself including, dog Robert for not getting the W- where Cousins play was poor to average all game save one drive that luckily someone didn't fumble, yet he gets accolades like he played a good game? He didn't do enough to win, and imo Robert DID in the HOU game. I know you cant blame either for other players or other units, but he was just as efficient at moving the ball, yet by some crazy standard Roberts play was poor where Cousins, who was to little to late played a good game- and even more gives us something to be proud of? Either a loss is a loss or we are looking at solely individual performances. Looking at that objectively means taking into account dropped INTs from the opposition as well as not discrediting scoring position due to bone head fumbles. I see how you can think im churching up Griff but im trying to read between the lines.. He didn't cause the niles fumble and Kirk shoulda lost by a lot more.

5. I thought St Louis ran all over them w some big runs from the qb too? I just seem to recall the run game being there for NO but they were to far behind and Foster giving me a GRIP of points.. Hopefully Kirk knows how important this game is to some of us if he plays- which I might add I think and hope he does. There is NO need to rush Robert back, win or lose these next couple weeks.

7. We actually agree more then you know. I don't want a 2012 RG3... a hybrid like Wilson but more like Luck, hell a big ben style or how bout Steve Young! He actually IS a pass first qb (all through ncaa) just had to make stuff happen to propel this mediocre team to victory. His accuracy at Baylor and through the pros is what I like- his deep ball, his throwing while on the move, and use his legs last. If I never see another 70 yard run im good.. ANY qb we field needs better protection and that's the bottom line. Has been for quite some time too.

8. There is a double standard. Kirk can do no wrong and Griff cant do enough good. Maybe not you, but to others its just how it is. Griffin NEVER had a melt down like Thursday night.. and had it been a 10 on Monday he would be getting ZERO love I can guarantee it- just cant prove it! ha ha

9. There are other examples.. I philly is good because numerically it looks ok on paper.. just like Seattle. Having watched every down of both games I know that we didn't have a chance in hell to win either. IMO the D vs the Seahawks was not playing the same on the one good drive of the second half. giving up the short stuff call it prevent. They knew the game was won. Wouldn't be surprised to see starters getting plays off.


Like everyone here, I just want to win.. and be relevant. Bashing the guy that last gave us that to me is just pitiful, more so when he isn't even suited up, yet STILL gets the blame!! Churching up back-up quality play from the back up is annoying too... I hope for his sake he steps it up big time, but I just don't see the fire in him. I will praise Kirk when its due- like after Philly, albeit with a HORRIBLE ending. This last game tho, it didn't give me any moral victory that he may have given some of his more rabid fans.

Unfortunately, it isn't likely either of these qbs wil take this team to the playoffs this year...

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:3. your missing my point boss, had it been Robert itd be "junk time" but since its Kirk he is the comeback king? Where was that play all game? He did well enough to lose by two scores. awesome. Our D cant shoulder the entire blame as they held Sea to ZERO first downs in the 3rd quarter. I know we were backed up, but there were some terrible plays there and the qb gets the blame- or no?
I ASKED if it was considered garbage time. Robert got us to within one score last year, the philly game was just ONE example... people wrote off his late game stats as "garbage time" so I asked if Kirk deserved the same.

4. I already admitted im biased one way as most are- but that I want BOTH to do well. I think my HOU example is valid because Roberts play- he himself- was, while nothing heroic ala 2012, was enough to win the game. Special team fails and fumbles within the 10 yard line cost us the game. Its a fine example of people, yourself including, dog Robert for not getting the W- where Cousins play was poor to average all game save one drive that luckily someone didn't fumble, yet he gets accolades like he played a good game? He didn't do enough to win, and imo Robert DID in the HOU game. I know you cant blame either for other players or other units, but he was just as efficient at moving the ball, yet by some crazy standard Roberts play was poor where Cousins, who was to little to late played a good game- and even more gives us something to be proud of? Either a loss is a loss or we are looking at solely individual performances. Looking at that objectively means taking into account dropped INTs from the opposition as well as not discrediting scoring position due to bone head fumbles. I see how you can think im churching up Griff but im trying to read between the lines.. He didn't cause the niles fumble and Kirk shoulda lost by a lot more.

5. I thought St Louis ran all over them w some big runs from the qb too? I just seem to recall the run game being there for NO but they were to far behind and Foster giving me a GRIP of points.. Hopefully Kirk knows how important this game is to some of us if he plays- which I might add I think and hope he does. There is NO need to rush Robert back, win or lose these next couple weeks.

7. We actually agree more then you know. I don't want a 2012 RG3... a hybrid like Wilson but more like Luck, hell a big ben style or how bout Steve Young! He actually IS a pass first qb (all through ncaa) just had to make stuff happen to propel this mediocre team to victory. His accuracy at Baylor and through the pros is what I like- his deep ball, his throwing while on the move, and use his legs last. If I never see another 70 yard run im good.. ANY qb we field needs better protection and that's the bottom line. Has been for quite some time too.

8. There is a double standard. Kirk can do no wrong and Griff cant do enough good. Maybe not you, but to others its just how it is. Griffin NEVER had a melt down like Thursday night.. and had it been a 10 on Monday he would be getting ZERO love I can guarantee it- just cant prove it! ha ha

9. There are other examples.. I philly is good because numerically it looks ok on paper.. just like Seattle. Having watched every down of both games I know that we didn't have a chance in hell to win either. IMO the D vs the Seahawks was not playing the same on the one good drive of the second half. giving up the short stuff call it prevent. They knew the game was won. Wouldn't be surprised to see starters getting plays off.


Like everyone here, I just want to win.. and be relevant. Bashing the guy that last gave us that to me is just pitiful, more so when he isn't even suited up, yet STILL gets the blame!! Churching up back-up quality play from the back up is annoying too... I hope for his sake he steps it up big time, but I just don't see the fire in him. I will praise Kirk when its due- like after Philly, albeit with a HORRIBLE ending. This last game tho, it didn't give me any moral victory that he may have given some of his more rabid fans.

Unfortunately, it isn't likely either of these qbs wil take this team to the playoffs this year...

3. See no, I don't believe that if RGIII had been in the game anyone on the planet would say that was "garbage time". And I don't think anyone on the planet thinks Kirk is close to being a "comeback king". And players aren't consistent througout the game. There are ebbs and flows. Playcalling has a ton to do with this. And our D CAN SHOULDER a GOOD DEAL of the loss HOWEVER our OFF is EQUALLY at fault. It is my general belief that a DEF does it's job if it holds an opposing OFF to <=23 and it is the job of the OFF to score >=23 points. Neither one did that. One quarter means next to nothing. What about the other 3... Again, YOU CAN'T PICK AND CHOOSE!!!!!!!

I also wasn't aware the "garbage time" was a question. I have come to believe that everything posted on this site is a statement. That being said, I don't (and I think 99.999% of the universe) would think the 4th Q wasn't garbage time. I also believe that 99.999% of the universe would think the entire 4Q of the PHI game last year was. The last TD game with 1 min left in the game. So to answer your question, no I don't think anyone could consider the 4Q of the SEA as "garbage time". Not even close. I am being 100% objective here.

4. I just find it hard to hear that you support them both --- followed by a completely 1 sided and bias analysis. But the fact you understand you are biased towards RGIII helps. Now if you truly supported both players, would you be happy if Kirk played above average (sort of a combination of the SEA game and PHI game) the rest of his time prior to RGIII's return (at least his play was superior to RGIII's in 2013) and Gruden decided benched RGIII? This is a serious question. I don't think you would, but I am asking and don't want to assume.

As far as the RGIII game, I didn't "dog" RGIII. I am just not bias nor do I have a completely jaded perception of RGIII. We scored 6 FREAKING POINTS!!!! That is WELL below the 23 point threshold. RGIII's QBR was 29.7 -- 4th worst in the league that week!!! And your incorrect opinion that RGIII did enough to win in HOU shows complete bias towards RGIII. RGIII did NOT do enough to win in HOU. That literally couldn't have been more clear. His 29.7 QBR --- a stat driven by a QB's ability to ADD VALUE offensively -- proves this. RGIII was NOT efficient at moving the ball!!!! We amassed 125 yards on 7 drives in the first half!!! That is horrible. It's like an average drive of 15 yards. The second half was better, but still in totality not "efficient" in any sense of the word. Cousins' game against SEA was CLEARLY better than RGIII's against HOU. This is not even debatable. Cousins had more yards, 2 more TDs, more points, a higher QBR, a higher yards per pass, less sacks, a higher QB rating... he was literally better in every facet of the position (outside of meaningless completion %). He also did this with 0 run support. We had 131 rushing yards against HOU compared to 32 against SEA.

And being objective means taking the data at hand. You can't CREATE stats. If the DEF dropped an INT, it is NOT an INT --- just like a dropped pass isn't a completion. That is playing the "what if" game. Objectivity is taking FACTS. Saying a dropped INT is equivalent to an actual INT is not accurate nor is it objective. CREATING stats isn't reading between the lines. Taking factual, secondary source data that had even a marginal impact on performance is. The fumble from Paul -- yes that affected RGIII's offensive points scored. I agree that was a factor. But things like a dropped pass or "shoulda" "coulda" is not objective AT ALL. In fact, it literally couldn't be more subjective......

5. Incorrect. Davis (the STL QB) ran for -1 yard against DAL. As far as NO, the "run game" is VASTLY different than QB scrambles.

I agree that there is no need to rush RGIII back, but I hope he is back by AT LEAST the Tampa Bay game.

7. Well, I want the 2012 RGIII back!!! In 2012 he was a leader, confident, more accurate, and a playmaker. All I want him to do is put on weight (like 25 pounds -- I can be 50-50 fat to muscle; I don't care -- he needs to stop eating subway and start eating pappa johns...) and learn to scramble (and slide) like Wilson. Steve Young is a great comparison. RGIII MUST MUST MUST improve on quickening his release. For example, after RGIII takes his drop back (whether 3 or 5 step), he sets his shoulders. That takes time and is something he should be doing AS he drops back. He also needs to cycle thru at least is first 2 options before a 5 step drop and at least his first before he completes his 3 step drop. A QB read cycle/decision should be completed in 3 seconds. He does need better protection, but his is partially at fault. He needs to learn to move WITHIN the pocket as well as trust his receivers.

8. I agree that, like you, people have bias. I personally don't. I was in awe of RGIII in 2012. But I agree that if RGIII had had the game Cousins did against NYG, people would want him benched -- you don't need to prove that. I do, however, think the fans expect more because of what I said in my prior post. The expectations are (and should be) higher for RGIII. We gave up 3 #1s and a #2 for him. He has a $21 million contract. They should NOT be held to the same standards as far as expectations.

9. Again, SEA was a game we were in a position to win. We were clear the inferior team, but in the position nonetheless. We were never in that position against PHI. SEA never played prevent D. The only time was on the last play of the game.

I agree that bashing RGIII is not the route to go, but we can't pretend he is something he isn't. And I think you are being a little overprotective of RGIII. No one was bashing him after the SEA game. No one. But the fact is, right now, Cousins is playing better (collectively) than RGIII did in 2013 and the beginning of 2014. People recognize that and are frustrated --- especially after seeing the 2012 RGIII.

And I agree in that moral victories are worthless and for losers. You either win or lose. That is the game.

Also agree that we aren't going to the playoffs no matter who QBs. The reality is more likely we are looking straight into somewhere between 3 and 6 Ws this year....

OldSchool wrote:Ckrg3,

In my view masterery of the mental game and processing speed is they key success deteriment for a QB not foot speed or arm strength.

I'm a team fan and a believer in the WCO and pocket passers and great defense. We have a WCO coach and a budding pocket passer in Cousins. I'd like like to see the Skins have Gruden work with Cousins over the next few years while they improve the defense and OL through the draft.

Agree with first statement 100%.

As far as 2nd statement, would you say a guy like Steve Young fits well into the WCO? I personally think RGIII has the talent to evolve into a similar type of player. Whether he will is another issue, but don't you think it would be smart to have Gruden also work on RGIII evolving into that type of QB -- after all, we have him under contract up to 2016. RGIII, as we saw in 2012, is a rare talent --- but has an issue with injuries. I would be happy to see him put on weight and work hard to evolve his talents into a Steve Young type.

And a QB shouldn't need "a few years" to get to where he needs to go. I don't think Cousins needs more than a year to master the offense. RGIII (ironically given his draft status) has MORE to work on, but I also believe that due to his immense talent, it shouldn't take him more than the remaining 6 games he has this year (assuming he comes back against Tampa) and the offseason.

We 100% need to improve our DEF and OL, so I hear that.

I think it will take at least 2 or 3 seasons for the Skins to improve the defense and OL even if all their choices going forward workout, an unlikely prospect given the history of the franchise. I think if Cousins remains the starter over the next 2 or 3 seasons he'll still be improving and the supporting cast could be good enough then.

As for Griffin I honestly don't see the immense talent so many others see. To me he was an incredible athlete who was able to befuddle the NFL with a backyard game for a dozen games until the inevitable crunch occurred. Now I'm not sure if he is a special athlete anymore, he might be but he hasn't displayed great agility or speed since December of 2012. More importantly I've never seen any evidence he can mentally process at NFL speed, a prerequisite for real success at QB. If he can get over that bad big hurdle it changes things but they have invested a lot of time since 2012 and thus far the light hasn't come on.

I also think the biggest deal with RG3 isn't his legs, or his release, or whatever. It's actually his confidence. In 2012 it looked like he was confident, having fun. 2013 looked miserable. This year...well...who knows it didn't last long enough.

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:[Sorry for the delay- I wanted to be reply appropriately and couldn't do so from my cell...

Straight from work release?