The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

year two (this year)... off season is used to build a superbowl quality D. we now have a pass rush! pressure is put on qbs and we get more turnovers. gives our points per game a bump. still no help on the other side of the ball.. we make the playoffs but cant score against a good D.

his goal for year two? continue to build JCs connections with the young wide outs (kelly and thomas) and make the playoffs. a more explosive O but with some holes. but boy is our D scary...

If our offense has trouble scoring points again this season JC wont be around of year 3 and Zorn might not be either.

El Mexican wrote:Can anyone tell me what's the longterm plan of this team?

You can't tell me it's giving Campbell enough time to develop because he is playing in a contract year and, basically, if he does not produce he's gone. Oh, and then there's the Sanchez/Cutler courtship of this last offseason.

Or maybe it's installing Zorn as a prominent head coach for some time? (Although I highly doubt it after the way he became HC. You know, the whole "signing coordinators before the HC is in place thing").

Or is it riding the defense to a championship? Building the best O-line in the league? Having the best backfield?

Abrupt changes. That has become the hallmark of the Redskins, IMO. Besides reeling in highpriced free agents year after year, I'm not sure we have a "philosophy" in place, a long term plan to follow.

I honestly have no idea. That, I bellieve, is solely the responsability of the FO. And right now I'm not even sure if THEY know what they are doing.

You hit the nail on the head with this post. The biggest problem with Vinny and the Dan is a lack of a consistent plan for what the team should look like. The best teams have a consistent plan and find players to fit into that plan. Snyder doesn't know what will work because he's never stuck with one plan long enough to see if it will work, aside from spending big on FA's, we know that hasn't worked. Without a plan, they are left flailing - one year let's sign older FA's with a proven track record, next year let's build through the draft, next year let's sign big name young guys.

I appreciate the guys on here who are trying to be optimistic and look to the future, but any question about Snyder as an owner was answered with the hiring of Zorn. I'm rooting for Zorn and like him a lot, but he was not qualified to be HC at the time he was hired. He was a default hiring because anyone with legitimate credentials to take the job either would not interview or turned the job down. Snyder, with some help from John Kent Cooke, has taken one of the plum jobs in the league and made it into a graveyard.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

year two (this year)... off season is used to build a superbowl quality D. we now have a pass rush! pressure is put on qbs and we get more turnovers. gives our points per game a bump. still no help on the other side of the ball.. we make the playoffs but cant score against a good D.

his goal for year two? continue to build JCs connections with the young wide outs (kelly and thomas) and make the playoffs. a more explosive O but with some holes. but boy is our D scary...

If our offense has trouble scoring points again this season JC wont be around of year 3 and Zorn might not be either.

i dont get how the front office can expect any improvment when the entire off season was used to bolster the D. they better understand that JC lives and dies and the hands of the O line. ... thats why at the end i expressed if danny allows zorn and JC three years (ie one more offseason) to get it going he will not be the worst owner in the NFL. if he cuts them loose? hes a moron.

TincoSkin wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

year two (this year)... off season is used to build a superbowl quality D. we now have a pass rush! pressure is put on qbs and we get more turnovers. gives our points per game a bump. still no help on the other side of the ball.. we make the playoffs but cant score against a good D.

his goal for year two? continue to build JCs connections with the young wide outs (kelly and thomas) and make the playoffs. a more explosive O but with some holes. but boy is our D scary...

If our offense has trouble scoring points again this season JC wont be around of year 3 and Zorn might not be either.

i dont get how the front office can expect any improvment when the entire off season was used to bolster the D. they better understand that JC lives and dies and the hands of the O line. ... thats why at the end i expressed if danny allows zorn and JC three years (ie one more offseason) to get it going he will not be the worst owner in the NFL. if he cuts them loose? hes a moron.

The problem though is that after this season JC will be a free agent. If he doesn't show significant improvement it doesn't make sense to sign him to a longterm deal. This is going to be his 5th NFL season and 2nd in this offense. Either he produces or he's gone.

PulpExposure wrote:And RiC, while you may not appreciate being the obvious target of SF's post, it was funny...

Fun and clowns is what the thread will probably come down to in the end.

The only little detail is that this website becomes a very unhappy place every time a season ends up in mediocrity. The clowns are not that funny then.

Countertrey wrote:Does it matter?

Hold the owner accountable?

Rage against the machine?

To what end? How?

I believe in the power of public opinion. I believe in telling the truth. I believe in reality as the measure to distinguish between truths and lies.

It does not matter whether I can change the ownership or not. It matters that the truth be told and acknowledged. It is sufficient to have the right to have a voice and express an opinion based on facts.

A voice is all a fan has. I am exercising a right as a fan and as a member of this board. The view and the form of expressing it might be dabatable, controversial or even unpleasant to some but the facts are the facts and the record is the record.

El Mexican wrote:Can anyone tell me what's the longterm plan of this team?

Nobody can assure you that Zorn will be here for the 2010 season and you are asking for a plan???

El Mexican wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

El Mexican wrote:Can anyone tell me what's the longterm plan of this team?

To win.

To "win" now? A la the 2000 Skins?

To win for a considerable time period? A la the Patriots?

To win in two years? Three?

It's consistency I'm looking for and this FO has been anything but that.

Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

Deadskins wrote:There are many here who are arguing that this FO has been nothing if not consistent.

More would agree if you truncated your statement:

this FO has been nothing

SnyderSucks wrote:He was a default hiring because anyone with legitimate credentials to take the job either would not interview or turned the job down.

Really? Jim Fassel (with a winning record as a head coach), and Steve Mariucci don't count?

PulpExposure wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:He was a default hiring because anyone with legitimate credentials to take the job either would not interview or turned the job down.

Really? Jim Fassel (with a winning record as a head coach), and Steve Mariucci don't count?

Fassel is on record as saying he thought, for a time, the job was his, and voicing his disappointment...

sounds like everyone is on board - let's get the bus rolling again

This is the year

can't wait

El Mexican wrote:Can anyone tell me what's the longterm plan of this team?

I honestly have no idea. That, I bellieve, is solely the responsability of the FO. And right now I'm not even sure if THEY know what they are doing.

I believe they do have a plan. Since Vinny and Zorn took over last year, I've seen evidence of that. Just because we don't have the forecasted blueprint in front of our faces for review doesn't mean there isn't one. I seriously doubt any reasonable fan would expect their team to fully disclose their strategies and intentions to the entire NFL community... no team in any sport does that.

Quotes from Cerrato wrote:This could be an important season for Cerrato as well. The evaluation of his first draft class hinges on the development of Thomas, Kelly and Davis. He recommended Zorn to Snyder and fully supported the partial shift in offensive philosophy. This is his show.

"To me, you learn something every day," Cerrato said. "When you stop learning, you stop growing and you stop developing. When you do that, you have no chance. You learn about the people, you learn about the players, you learn about the weaknesses [and] you learn about what you need to do better. . . . If we thought everything was great, then we wouldn't have gone out and signed Albert and did those types of things. It helps when you have a clear vision of what needs to be done. We have that."

The "plan" changes when a new coaching staff takes over. I believe a small percentage of fans conveniently forget or ignore relevant circumstances. After giving Spurrier his shot at the NFL level, everyone wanted him gone. Snyder got rid of him and to everyone's surprise, was successful in hiring the beloved Joe Gibbs. Joe Gibbs was given the title of head coach and team president with full GM responsibilities... and no one had a problem with that. For four years, the ship was steered by Gibbs himself... and Vinny merely headed up the scouting department.

Well... the HoF'er, Joe Gibbs, retired. It was at that point that the plan and future direction would change... once again. But that wasn't Snyder's fault. Gibbs retired, and at that time, many here were complaining about an outdated offensive system. So by the circumstance of Gibbs' early retirement, the plan was going to change... and damn near everyone wanted it to.

Many here say Vinny needs to be held accountable, just the same as every employee of any business is, and everyone... let me repeat that.... EVERYONE agrees with accountability. Vinny has only been in the GM role for a year and a half... not even two full seasons. So in all fairness, he deserves a chance to build a body of work to be accurately and fairly judged on. When Gibbs retired and Vinny was subsequently promoted, that's when Vinny became fully accountable.

SkinsJock wants to thank me for "admitting frustration" and asked if that was so hard to do. Well again, that's an inaccurate interpretation, as it ignores the time lines of circumstance. During Gibbs' four year run, my previous frustration with the front office subsided, as Gibbs acting as the head coach, team president and GM... Gibbs WAS the front office and change became evident.

Since Gibbs retired and Vinny was promoted, the plan changed and I fully support the direction the team is now taking. So at this point in time, while still wishing for a run at the championship, I'm not frustrated to the same degree I was prior to Gibbs' return. Last year was Vinny's first year as the man and in my opinion, we had a very good offseason. I believe Vinny had a very good draft, as that was his primary focus last year, and no free agents were signed. I also liked his second offseason, in which I believe we had a very good draft and only two free agents were brought in... and both free agents addressed areas that needed significant upgrades with quality and youth. The other free agent was already on the team and was merely given a new contract... and the securing of Hall's services was paramount.

So I agree Vinny needs to be held accountable, but since he's been the main guy, I believe he's done a good job. I like the direction the team is taking and as SkinsJock himself admits, the team includes many pretty darn good players and coaches. It now becomes their responsibility to get it done on the field and it would be illogical to think a second year in a new system wouldn't produce better results.

SkinsFreak wrote:

El Mexican wrote:Can anyone tell me what's the longterm plan of this team?

I honestly have no idea. That, I bellieve, is solely the responsability of the FO. And right now I'm not even sure if THEY know what they are doing.

I believe they do have a plan. Since Vinny and Zorn took over last year, I've seen evidence of that. Just because we don't have the forecasted blueprint in front of our faces for review doesn't mean there isn't one. I seriously doubt any reasonable fan would expect their team to fully disclose their strategies and intentions to the entire NFL community... no team in any sport does that.

Quotes from Cerrato wrote:This could be an important season for Cerrato as well. The evaluation of his first draft class hinges on the development of Thomas, Kelly and Davis. He recommended Zorn to Snyder and fully supported the partial shift in offensive philosophy. This is his show.

"To me, you learn something every day," Cerrato said. "When you stop learning, you stop growing and you stop developing. When you do that, you have no chance. You learn about the people, you learn about the players, you learn about the weaknesses [and] you learn about what you need to do better. . . . If we thought everything was great, then we wouldn't have gone out and signed Albert and did those types of things. It helps when you have a clear vision of what needs to be done. We have that."

The "plan" changes when a new coaching staff takes over. I believe a small percentage of fans conveniently forget or ignore relevant circumstances. After giving Spurrier his shot at the NFL level, everyone wanted him gone. Snyder got rid of him and to everyone's surprise, was successful in hiring the beloved Joe Gibbs. Joe Gibbs was given the title of head coach and team president with full GM responsibilities... and no one had a problem with that. For four years, the ship was steered by Gibbs himself... and Vinny merely headed up the scouting department.

Well... the HoF'er, Joe Gibbs, retired. It was at that point that the plan and future direction would change... once again. But that wasn't Snyder's fault. Gibbs retired, and at that time, many here were complaining about an outdated offensive system. So by the circumstance of Gibbs' early retirement, the plan was going to change... and damn near everyone wanted it to.

Many here say Vinny needs to be held accountable, just the same as every employee of any business is, and everyone... let me repeat that.... EVERYONE agrees with accountability. Vinny has only been in the GM role for a year and a half... not even two full seasons. So in all fairness, he deserves a chance to build a body of work to be accurately and fairly judged on. When Gibbs retired and Vinny was subsequently promoted, that's when Vinny became fully accountable.

SkinsJock wants to thank me for "admitting frustration" and asked if that was so hard to do. Well again, that's an inaccurate interpretation, as it ignores the time lines of circumstance. During Gibbs' four year run, my previous frustration with the front office subsided, as Gibbs acting as the head coach, team president and GM... Gibbs WAS the front office and change became evident.

Since Gibbs retired and Vinny was promoted, the plan changed and I fully support the direction the team is now taking. So at this point in time, while still wishing for a run at the championship, I'm not frustrated to the same degree I was prior to Gibbs' return. Last year was Vinny's first year as the man and in my opinion, we had a very good offseason. I believe Vinny had a very good draft, as that was his primary focus last year, and no free agents were signed. I also liked his second offseason, in which I believe we had a very good draft and only two free agents were brought in... and both free agents addressed areas that needed significant upgrades with quality and youth. The other free agent was already on the team and was merely given a new contract... and the securing of Hall's services was paramount.

So I agree Vinny needs to be held accountable, but since he's been the main guy, I believe he's done a good job. I like the direction the team is taking and as SkinsJock himself admits, the team includes many pretty darn good players and coaches. It now becomes their responsibility to get it done on the field and it would be illogical to think a second year in a new system wouldn't produce better results.

Very well written and thought out. I don't see a piece in there that I disagree with. If only I could write like that...

To SF: there's one slight problem with your excellent synthesis: we all know that Snyder is the one running the show, not Cerrato.

Was Cerrato the one who tried to land Cutler and Sanchez this offseason? No. Everyone knows it was Snyder. Is Cerrato responsable in signing Fat Albert? No. We also know that it was Snyder all along pulling the strings.

Were exactly do you draw the line between these two?

For some time that has been the real issue with the FO, not Vinny's ability to judge talent.

To SF: there's one slight problem with your excellent synthesis: we all know that Snyder is the one running the show, not Cerrato.

Was Cerrato the one who tried to land Cutler and Sanchez this offseason? No. Everyone knows it was Snyder. Is Cerrato responsable in signing Fat Albert? No. We also know that it was Snyder all along pulling the strings.

Where exactly do you draw the line between these two?

For some time that has been the real issue with the FO, not Vinny's ability to judge talent.

I'll agree with most of that - my only concern is that we continue with the "plan" that, I agree, Gibbs started - namely, we hold onto draft picks and, as we did this year, bring in the odd FA to also improve the team

I wonder at why we almost (I know close only counts in horseshoes) but we ALMOST gave up 2 first round picks for a QB? That must have filled Campbell with a lot of confidence AND this is a QB that some here think can be quite good

I wonder what will happen if the offense & Zorn are good this year & we go 9-7 or 10-6 and do not win the NFC East and there are all these future HOF coaches out there trying to add to their retirement accounts?

I am just nervous about these 2, I do not think they know what they are doing & I do not think they will continue with the so called plan.

as I've said, I'm looking for some real progress with this team & just hope that after a good to decent season we don't then try a new direction without giving the current group here enough time - I have always thought that we have the beginings of a good team of players & coaches here & the next 2 years we can add to that .... BUT, we shall see




it will also be interesting to see who here accepts the challenge from Redskin in Canada?

PulpExposure wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:He was a default hiring because anyone with legitimate credentials to take the job either would not interview or turned the job down.

Really? Jim Fassel (with a winning record as a head coach), and Steve Mariucci don't count?

Why would they count? They aren't legitimate candidates for any other jobs. The last time Fassell had a job, he was hired as a favor by his friend Billick in Baltimore. Billick, his friend, had to fire him during the season. Marriucci has already been fired twice. He's a poor man's Norv Turner.

I've already stated, for the record, several times that I believe we are going to win the division this year. So RiC will just have to do his crow eating once we have clinched the division title.

SnyderSucks wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:He was a default hiring because anyone with legitimate credentials to take the job either would not interview or turned the job down.

Really? Jim Fassel (with a winning record as a head coach), and Steve Mariucci don't count?

Why would they count? They aren't legitimate candidates for any other jobs. The last time Fassell had a job, he was hired as a favor by his friend Billick in Baltimore. Billick, his friend, had to fire him during the season. Marriucci has already been fired twice. He's a poor man's Norv Turner.

Really? I don't remember any Norv Turner coached team ever making a SB, much less winning one.

El Mexican wrote:To SF: there's one slight problem with your excellent synthesis: we all know that Snyder is the one running the show, not Cerrato.

Was Cerrato the one who tried to land Cutler and Sanchez this offseason? No. Everyone knows it was Snyder. Is Cerrato responsable in signing Fat Albert? No. We also know that it was Snyder all along pulling the strings.

Were exactly do you draw the line between these two?

For some time that has been the real issue with the FO, not Vinny's ability to judge talent.

That's my point as well....but we are being told it's Vinny gig now...many here give Vinny a pass for the past...the proof will come and I'll pose this question to SF...IF the season goes south and DS decides to fire someone..who should go first Vinny or Zorn??

Deadskins wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:He was a default hiring because anyone with legitimate credentials to take the job either would not interview or turned the job down.

Really? Jim Fassel (with a winning record as a head coach), and Steve Mariucci don't count?

Why would they count? They aren't legitimate candidates for any other jobs. The last time Fassell had a job, he was hired as a favor by his friend Billick in Baltimore. Billick, his friend, had to fire him during the season. Marriucci has already been fired twice. He's a poor man's Norv Turner.

Really? I don't remember any Norv Turner coached team ever making a SB, much less winning one.

Which of those coaches ever won a super bowl? I remember the Giants going, but not winning. I don't remember Marriucci making a super bowl. Maybe I'm forgetting something. Regardless of either winning a super bowl, neither is currently a legitimate candidate for any other coaching jobs in the league. As I said, the last time Fassell was given a job to help resusitate his career, he had to be fired by a longtime friend during the season. If anyone was even considering Fassell for a job he wouldn't have had to accept a job with the UFL.

I do think that Snyder was close to hiring Fassell. I like to think the fan outcry and the calls to Redskins Park made him reconsider.

SnyderSucks wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:He was a default hiring because anyone with legitimate credentials to take the job either would not interview or turned the job down.

Really? Jim Fassel (with a winning record as a head coach), and Steve Mariucci don't count?

Why would they count? They aren't legitimate candidates for any other jobs. The last time Fassell had a job, he was hired as a favor by his friend Billick in Baltimore. Billick, his friend, had to fire him during the season. Marriucci has already been fired twice. He's a poor man's Norv Turner.

Really? I don't remember any Norv Turner coached team ever making a SB, much less winning one.

Which of those coaches ever won a super bowl? I remember the Giants going, but not winning. I don't remember Marriucci making a super bowl. Maybe I'm forgetting something. Regardless of either winning a super bowl, neither is currently a legitimate candidate for any other coaching jobs in the league. As I said, the last time Fassell was given a job to help resusitate his career, he had to be fired by a longtime friend during the season. If anyone was even considering Fassell for a job he wouldn't have had to accept a job with the UFL.

I do think that Snyder was close to hiring Fassell. I like to think the fan outcry and the calls to Redskins Park made him reconsider.

Fassel went and lost. Marriucci went and won.

DEHog wrote:

El Mexican wrote:To SF: there's one slight problem with your excellent synthesis: we all know that Snyder is the one running the show, not Cerrato.

Was Cerrato the one who tried to land Cutler and Sanchez this offseason? No. Everyone knows it was Snyder. Is Cerrato responsable in signing Fat Albert? No. We also know that it was Snyder all along pulling the strings.

Were exactly do you draw the line between these two?

For some time that has been the real issue with the FO, not Vinny's ability to judge talent.

That's my point as well....but we are being told it's Vinny gig now...many here give Vinny a pass for the past...the proof will come and I'll pose this question to SF...IF the season goes south and DS decides to fire someone..who should go first Vinny or Zorn??

A couple of points... Vinny doesn't "get a pass" for the past... because he wasn't calling the shots as some continue to assert. As I previously said, before Gibbs' retired, Vinny merely headed up the scouting department and Gibbs was the HC/President/GM. So if you're frustrated with what happened during Gibbs' tenure... blame Gibbs and Williams. Prior to Gibbs returning, I blame Snyder for the miscues and he's recently acknowledged those mistakes. Since Zorn and Cerrato took over, I like what I see and will reserve judgment until after this season concludes.

Second... there's not one bit of evidence to conclude Snyder is the sole person responsible for currently pulling the strings. In his early years... yes, but not since Gibbs took over. Is Snyder involved with the interview process of potential draft choices and free agents? Sure, the man writes the checks. But to assert he calls all the shots is just uninformed. Gibbs even spoke about this many times in the past. An integrated process narrowed down which players were desired and that list was subsequently presented to Snyder for the purposes for determining if said player is financially feasible. Gibbs and Cerrato have both said that Snyder doesn't sit in on meetings or film study and isn't the one selecting players.

As far as DE's question regarding who gets fired first... I'll say this. At this point in time, I don't think either deserves to be fired. But I've already said I believe Vinny has done a decent job since he took over as GM. Camp starts in two days, so at this point, the onus is on the coaches and the players. There's not a heck of a lot Vinny can do right now. He's done his offseason work and I've said I like it and agree with it. In my opinion, Zorn deserves the chance to play out his contract, and I believe, regardless of what happens this year, he will get that chance.

It's a game with opponents, so anything can happen. But again, it would be illogical to conclude before the season starts that a 2nd year in a system wouldn't produce better results... and I think it will. As much as I love Jim Zorn, a lot is riding on his shoulders right now. But I think he'll get it done. I don't buy into the media's hype about Zorn necessarily being on the hot seat. Logic tells me that the powers that be knew he was a first-time head coach and play caller, and therefore there has to be time afforded for a learning curve. Some talk about last year being a failure... I don't see it that way. I think they took a huge step forward and Zorn and Cerrato are partially responsible for that. We all hope in continues.

As far as Zorn and his philosophies, I highly recommend folks read this.

If we don't have a winning record and/assuming Snyder gets rid of Zorn, that'll prove he didn't learn jack and is still a dummy.. if he keeps him for another year to try again, I'd say good job DannyBoy. Of course, a winning season will eliminate all of that.