The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

SkinsFreak wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:You go ahead and preach on your soap box about what HAS been done. I'll live in the present, go ahead and keep talking about, "I remember when Danny screwed us by..." in the past tense.

But... but... Vet, the record... I have the record over a specific period of time on my side. We were good at one point in time, but since then, even under the same previous ownership that produced championships, we became mediocre. Since the recent past record is mediocre, that proves the future record will be mediocre as well. It's a fact. Just look at the Patriots. Before they started winning championships in the 2000's, they were... umm... champions... or something. No wait... they were mediocre before winning championships, but brought in a new coach and started winning championships against mediocre teams. Yeah, that's it. No wait... that's not right either, because according to RiC, once mediocre, always mediocre, and therefore, fans shouldn't be... umm... fans... or homers... or something.

This isn't a game or a sport, it's REAL life, so you can't be optimistic with each new hand dealt. Snyder is just trying to trick us. He's trying to keep the team mediocre so we'll keep giving him all our money. Snyder is trying to take over the world. Fear him... he'll take all your money. He'll purposely keep a mediocre team on the field... you know, just so we'll get excited and optimistic about each upcoming season and end up giving him all our money so he can build his empire to one day take over the world and kill us all. Yeah... that's it. He's just another Jim Jones. I knew it! He'll take all my money with his evil plan and leave me to die.

THIS IS A CALL TO ARMS MY BROTHERS!!!! STAND UP... REVOLT AGAINST THE EVIL EMPIRE!!! FEDEX IS JONESTOWN... I MEAN SNYDERTOWN!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!!!!!!

that is a little over the top - a post that is not all drivel but pretty close to it

Countertrey wrote:I see that one of the two major complaints that I had with the team last year has been addressed in a most satisfactory manner.

I note that a similar opportunity to address the other major concern did not materialize.

I'll take what I can get.

I am, now and forever, a Redskins fan... no matter how incompetent the owner may be. I can be nothing else.

I must be getting old and grumpy because I agree with CT.

And RiC, while you may not appreciate being the obvious target of SF's post, it was funny...

After 10 years of snyder's ownership, I am glad that we seem to be getting better as a team but I'm still frustrated by the fact that we are where we are as a team - I'm still a Redskins fan - some here just do not seem to want to look at how things are as of August 2009 and why - they seem to want to come up with excuses for the reasons that we are not a consistently good football team - that is all this is about

unlike some here, I am not under any allusion about anything, I'm just pointing out the obvious





when people cannot discuss and have to allude to "who's the real idiot here ...." statements AND resort to stupid posts to try and make their point, it's probably time to just move on

What about terminally negative one trick ponies...do they reign supreme?

PulpExposure wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:]these 2 bozos

SkinsJock wrote: 2 bozos

SkinsJock wrote:these 2 bozos

SkinsJock wrote: 2 bozos

I think someone has a thing for clowns...

Just one clown in particular.

SkinsJock wrote:when people cannot discuss and have to allude to "who's the real idiot here ...." statements AND resort to stupid posts to try and make their point, it's probably time to just move on

Time to move on, you say? We should just move on?

Gee... there's an idea. ... ... ...

Ever think about taking your own advice? Or does shouting the same thing over and over again, like a broken record, make it easier for you to sleep better at night or somehow make your point stronger?

Dude... we get it. So what? What are you gonna do? Tell us about it again?... So you can sleep better tonight?

I also agree with CT... it's pointless. What are you going to do... rise up against the machine? We all feel the frustration... SO WHAT? It's a game for entertainment. Some of us just see it for what it is, and decide to... ... ... MOVE ON!

Countertrey wrote:Does it matter?

Hold the owner accountable?

Rage against the machine?

To what end? How?

I have one weapon (witholding support)... and am not capable of using it.

This, therefore, is a pointless exercise in targeting the optimistic, whom, for you, serve as surrogates for the Danny, in all his sinister glory as the master of all that is evil.

Nothing I do, nothing YOU do, nothing WE are willing to do, will impact the course taken by the Danny one iota.

Pointless exercise. Protests to the contrary are voiding into the wind. The net result is, you get wet and smelly.



Frustration? I get it. I feel it. SO WHAT???

I see that one of the two major complaints that I had with the team last year has been addressed in a most satisfactory manner.

I note that a similar opportunity to address the other major concern did not materialize.

I'll take what I can get.

I am, now and forever, a Redskins fan... no matter how incompetent the owner may be. I can be nothing else.

SkinsFreak wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Campbell may develop into a very good QB but that is certainly not a given and look at how long he's been here and we are still not sure that he's a top 10 QB in the NFL - no wonder we are not one of the teams that people consider a certainty for the playoffs Twisted Evil

Campbell isn't anywhere close to being one of the top 10 best qbs in the NFL. It really is quite sad how poor our qb situation has been over the last ten years or so. Since 1999 all of following players have started at least one game for us:

Brad Johnson
Tony Banks
Jeff George
Shane Matthews
Patrick Ramsey
Danny Wuerffel
Tim Hasselbeck
Mark Brunell
Jason Campbell
Todd Collins

9 seasons and 10 different qbs that have started games for us.

I agree that's a less than impressive list

In that case I think you are both wrong. It is perhaps on the 'heavier' side but really not uncommon at all.

What is a list that goes back 10 years supposed to tell us? Are we supposed to make inferences about QB rotation and succes?

Personally, I think that list is somewhat pointless (perhaps disingenuous — not that CanesSkins is, but that the list comes across as "worse" than it really is)

Here are five other teams that have similar QB profiles and have had varying degrees of success over the last ten years. (Together with the Skins, that's 20% of the league, btw.) One team (Arizona) is a recent success, although they've been solidly building in the last few years, culminating in the Super Bowl. Some teams have been successful throughout the 10 years. Some have been teams people cite for solid QB play. Others have had Super Bowl victories and/or appearances in the last 10 years. At any rate, all of the quarterbacks on this list meet CanesSkins criteria:

Cardinals (8 QBs in 10 years; Super Bowl appearance; known for good QB play [Warner, Plummer]):
Kurt Warner
Matt Leinhart
Josh McCown
Shaun King
John Navarre
Jeff Blake
Jake Plummer
Dave Brown


Carolina Panthers (9 QBs in 10 years; Super Bowl appearance; multiple playoff appearances; known for good QB play):
Jake Delhomme
Vinny Testaverde
David Carr
Matt Moore
Chris Weinke
Rodney Peete
Randy Fasani
Matt Lyttle
Steve Beuerlein


Baltimore Ravens (12 QBs in 10 years; Super Bowl appearance; multiple playoff appearances):
Joe Flacco
Kyle Boller
Steve McNair
Troy Smith
Anthony Wright
Chris Redman
Jeff Blake
Elvis Grbac
Randall Cunningham
Tony Banks
Trent Dilfer
Stoney Case

Tampa Bay (11 QBs in 10 years; Super Bowl victory; multiple playoff appearances; only 3 losing seasons)
Jeff Garcia
Brian Griese
Luke McCown
Bruce Gradkowski
Chris Simms
Tim Rattay
Brian Griese
Brad Johnson
Rob Johnson
Shaun King
Eric Zeier


St. Louis (10 QBs in 10 years; Super Bowl victory; multiple Super Bowl appearances; multiple playoff appearances; known for good QB play [Warner, Bulger]):
Marc Bulger
Trent Green
Gus Frerotte
Brock Berlin
Jamie Martin
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Chris Chander
Kurt Warner
Scott Covington
Trent Green


There's SOME merit to the study. New England and Indianapolis come to mind as teams with a lot of stability at QB—basically one guy for the last ten years. New York, Philly, Green Bay are some others who have been successful and have had stability.

But most teams that are successful (i.e., make the playoffs) often don't have QB stability, especially stability going back 10 years. That's such a random stat to pull out of the hat.

. . .And, there are other teams with the stability CanesSkins is looking for but who haven't been impressive: the Texans, Minnesota Vikings, and the Buffalo Bills. So there really isn't too much correlation one way or the other. Instead of talking about "quarterback stability" in the abstract, it's better to identify who the superstars are (Brady, Manning, etc.) and work from there.

But then, that wouldn't put the Skins in the worst possible light.

SkinsFreak, thanks for admitting that we are all frustrated about the ownership and his 'butt-boy' Cerrato - that wasn't so hard was it

It got a little tiresome seeing all that diatribe about everything else but the point that we seem to be destined for mediocrity with these 2 bozos

Hail to the Redskins and let's have a great season

SkinsJock wrote:SkinsFreak, thanks for admitting that we are all frustrated about the ownership and his 'butt-boy' Cerrato - that wasn't so hard was it

It got a little tiresome seeing all that diatribe about everything else but the point that we seem to be destined for mediocrity with these 2 bozos

Hail to the Redskins and let's have a great season

...and you've illustrated the exact point why I'm frustrated. How exactly are we destined for mediocrity? Danny admitted he was young and foolish, and we've gotten progressively better in the FA/trade market. That wouldn't support the terminegativity that we are destined for mediocrity, but it would support that we're still elevating our game.

This is only the 2nd year with Vinnie in charge of personnell. Lrt's see how this years & last years draft picks perform. I think that will be a better measure of how well the FO is doing.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:SkinsFreak, thanks for admitting that we are all frustrated about the ownership and his 'butt-boy' Cerrato - that wasn't so hard was it

It got a little tiresome seeing all that diatribe about everything else but the point that we seem to be destined for mediocrity with these 2 bozos

...and you've illustrated the exact point why I'm frustrated.

How exactly are we destined for mediocrity?

Danny admitted he was young and foolish, and we've gotten progressively better in the FA/trade market. That wouldn't support the term negativity that we are destined for mediocrity, but it would support that we're still elevating our game.

I did not say that mediocrity was a certainty - that is what has happened here after 10 years
I am just not that convinced that these guys are getting that much better
we might be OK under their guidance but I would feel a lot better with guys who know what they are doing - that's all


I have very little faith in these 2 because of what they have done recently:
I understood that we (and I presume the Redskins' management group) were concerned about various issues at the beginning of this season:

The aging offensive line
The WR group
The defensive line's lack of a pass rush
The Specail Team's performance and especially the punter and kicker

these seemed to me to be at the forefront and in all honesty I think that we have helped the team and managed the draft and the acquisitions as well as we could hope.

What concerns me is that we then made an effort to get both Cutler and reportedly looked at the possibility of trading for Sanchez, weren't you concerned about that?
Why would we do that - we understand what we have and we also are looking to keep all of our draft picks for next year and then we do that

In my estimation this was a sign that Snyder and Cerrato were making that decision and IMHO they do not think that Campbell is a QB that can help the team.

WHY NOT GIVE HIM A CHANCE? what do we really have to lose right now?

WHY WOULD YOU RISK LOSING 2 X 1ST ROUND DRAFT PICKS? we need our draft picks because we have many parts of the team to help get better

we both want the same thing - I am just concerned that these 2 have not learned very much from their mistakes is all



I do not think that they know what's best for this team's future or have a long term plan for handling it

After this season, I say we should keep all the good players, coaches and management staff that know what they are doing and get rid of the deadwood - we need an owner but we would be a lot better off without Cerrato

I often laugh when we say (me included) lets cut people and start from scratch. I wonder what the team/management say about us fans??

"hey man, those THN fans, totally hate us.. let's get rid of them and start from scratch"

SkinsJock wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:SkinsFreak, thanks for admitting that we are all frustrated about the ownership and his 'butt-boy' Cerrato - that wasn't so hard was it

It got a little tiresome seeing all that diatribe about everything else but the point that we seem to be destined for mediocrity with these 2 bozos

...and you've illustrated the exact point why I'm frustrated.

How exactly are we destined for mediocrity?

Danny admitted he was young and foolish, and we've gotten progressively better in the FA/trade market. That wouldn't support the term negativity that we are destined for mediocrity, but it would support that we're still elevating our game.

I did not say that mediocrity was a certainty - that is what has happened here after 10 years

SkinsJock wrote:we seem to be destined for mediocrity with these 2 bozos

What exactly does destined mean then?

SkinsJock wrote:
I am just not that convinced that these guys are getting that much better
we might be OK under their guidance but I would feel a lot better with guys who know what they are doing - that's all


I have very little faith in these 2 because of what they have done recently:
I understood that we (and I presume the Redskins' management group) were concerned about various issues at the beginning of this season:

The aging offensive line we've picked up a few free agents and brought back Dock. That's something
The WR group I guess our two 2nd rounders are 1 and done?
The defensive line's lack of a pass rush I guess Orakpo and Haynesworth have no influence on this
The Specail Team's performance and especially the punter and kicker Didn't we bring in a new punter? We also have some new blood on PR/KR that I'm sure we'll see in pre-season

these seemed to me to be at the forefront and in all honesty I think that we have helped the team and managed the draft and the acquisitions as well as we could hope.

SkinsJock wrote:What concerns me is that we then made an effort to get both Cutler and reportedly looked at the possibility of trading for Sanchez, weren't you concerned about that?
Why would we do that - we understand what we have and we also are looking to keep all of our draft picks for next year and then we do that

What's wrong with trying to better your team? You never know what's out there until you inquire, and that's what they did.

SkinsJock wrote:
In my estimation this was a sign that Snyder and Cerrato were making that decision and IMHO they do not think that Campbell is a QB that can help the team.

WHY NOT GIVE HIM A CHANCE? what do we really have to lose right now?

WHY WOULD YOU RISK LOSING 2 X 1ST ROUND DRAFT PICKS? we need our draft picks because we have many parts of the team to help get better

Almost and shouldas don't burn picks. Like I said, it was an inquiry that obviously didn't pan out. We've got enough to worry about that IS happening. Let's not talk about what almost, but didn't, happen.

SkinsJock wrote:we both want the same thing - I am just concerned that these 2 have not learned very much from their mistakes is all

Every skins fan, I hope, would want the team to be the best that it can be. The problem is what everyone's opinion is of 'best.'

SkinsJock wrote:I do not think that they know what's best for this team's future or have a long term plan for handling it

Jarmon's pick up is long term. Barnes pick up is long term. We've brought in mid round and FA lineman to groom, b/c anyone iwth any sense knows you can't build O-line cohesion instantly.

Many people cry about no long term view, but then want wide receivers to be all pro in one year. They want 3rd round interior lineman to start week 1. If anyone expects every guy ot get on the field immediately and produce, then go hit that power button on your Xbox or PS(2 or 3), because that's the only way it's going to happen.

There's a reason that there's only 1696 professional football players every year. There's a reason why these guys make more money in a few years than some people will make in a lifetime. If it was that easy, we'd be in pads makin those millions, instead of 'debating' on an internet forum.

SkinsJock wrote:SkinsFreak, thanks for admitting that we are all frustrated about the ownership and his 'butt-boy' Cerrato - that wasn't so hard was it

It got a little tiresome seeing all that diatribe about everything else but the point that we seem to be destined for mediocrity with these 2 bozos

Hail to the Redskins and let's have a great season

Just to save SkinsJock a little arthritis, can we get a clown emoticon? :bozo or something like that?

Maybe :cerrato

PulpExposure wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:SkinsFreak, thanks for admitting that we are all frustrated about the ownership and his 'butt-boy' Cerrato - that wasn't so hard was it

It got a little tiresome seeing all that diatribe about everything else but the point that we seem to be destined for mediocrity with these 2 bozos

Hail to the Redskins and let's have a great season

Just to save SkinsJock a little arthritis, can we get a clown emoticon? :bozo or something like that?

Maybe :cerrato

We already have a Cerrato image.. look again bro-> <-

SkinsJock* wrote:I did not say that mediocrity was a certainty - that is what has happened here after 10 years

Not exactly. We had seven years of the same before The Danny took over. And the last five years have shown definite signs of improvement. Truthfully, the final Turner/Robiske year and the Spurrier years are the only years I have a problem with The Danny's ownership. If he had just stuck with Marty instead of opting for more coaching turnover, I think we would have had much more success the past decade.

Deadskins wrote:

SkinsJock* wrote:I did not say that mediocrity was a certainty - that is what has happened here after 10 years

Not exactly. We had seven years of the same before The Danny took over. And the last five years have shown definite signs of improvement. Truthfully, the final Turner/Robiske year and the Spurrier years are the only years I have a problem with The Danny's ownership. If he had just stuck with Marty instead of opting for more coaching turnover, I think we would have had much more success the past decade.

I am glad he made his mistakes with firing Schotty and hiring Spurrier. If it weren't for those two actions, Gibbs would never have come back to coaching. I was able to relive a childhood dream of mine when Gibbs was coaching the team so I am thankful for that. I know he didn't achieve as much success, but he did give everyone hope; the little tingles when he returned to coach again. We all can thank Snyder for that, because without his Snyders "big splashisms," it is hard telling who would have coached the team. Add on top of that he wouldn't have learned some things from Gibbs on how to run a football operation.

Cappster wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

SkinsJock* wrote:I did not say that mediocrity was a certainty - that is what has happened here after 10 years

Not exactly. We had seven years of the same before The Danny took over. And the last five years have shown definite signs of improvement. Truthfully, the final Turner/Robiske year and the Spurrier years are the only years I have a problem with The Danny's ownership. If he had just stuck with Marty instead of opting for more coaching turnover, I think we would have had much more success the past decade.

I am glad he made his mistakes with firing Schotty and hiring Spurrier. If it weren't for those two actions, Gibbs would never have come back to coaching. I was able to relive a childhood dream of mine when Gibbs was coaching the team so I am thankful for that. I know he didn't achieve as much success, but he did give everyone hope; the little tingles when he returned to coach again. We all can thank Snyder for that, because without his Snyders "big splashisms," it is hard telling who would have coached the team. Add on top of that he wouldn't have learned some things from Gibbs on how to run a football operation.

And I agree with that. I was just putting The Danny's decade as owner into perspective. It really hasn't been as bad as some have made it seem, and I think people are lumping the Norval years on his shoulders as well.

Can anyone tell me what's the longterm plan of this team?

You can't tell me it's giving Campbell enough time to develop because he is playing in a contract year and, basically, if he does not produce he's gone. Oh, and then there's the Sanchez/Cutler courtship of this last offseason.

Or maybe it's installing Zorn as a prominent head coach for some time? (Although I highly doubt it after the way he became HC. You know, the whole "signing coordinators before the HC is in place thing").

Or is it riding the defense to a championship? Building the best O-line in the league? Having the best backfield?

Abrupt changes. That has become the hallmark of the Redskins, IMO. Besides reeling in highpriced free agents year after year, I'm not sure we have a "philosophy" in place, a long term plan to follow.

I honestly have no idea. That, I bellieve, is solely the responsability of the FO. And right now I'm not even sure if THEY know what they are doing.

El Mexican wrote:Can anyone tell me what's the longterm plan of this team?

To win.

Deadskins wrote:

El Mexican wrote:Can anyone tell me what's the longterm plan of this team?

To win.

To "win" now? A la the 2000 Skins?

To win for a considerable time period? A la the Patriots?

To win in two years? Three?

It's consistency I'm looking for and this FO has been anything but that.

There are many here who are arguing that this FO has been nothing if not consistent.

El Mexican wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

El Mexican wrote:Can anyone tell me what's the longterm plan of this team?

To win.

To "win" now? A la the 2000 Skins?

To win for a considerable time period? A la the Patriots?

To win in two years? Three?

It's consistency I'm looking for and this FO has been anything but that.

i have posted my vision for the zorn experience before but here it is:

year one (last year)... zorn inherits the gibbs team built for clock managment and low risk O. he manages a great start but cant keep it together in the end of the season for reasons we can debate later.

his goal for year one? build JCs confidence, make sure he has the basics in QB skills, and results in a string of games with NO INTS!! woohoo

year two (this year)... off season is used to build a superbowl quality D. we now have a pass rush! pressure is put on qbs and we get more turnovers. gives our points per game a bump. still no help on the other side of the ball.. we make the playoffs but cant score against a good D.

his goal for year two? continue to build JCs connections with the young wide outs (kelly and thomas) and make the playoffs. a more explosive O but with some holes. but boy is our D scary...

year three (next year)... we use the off season to rebuild the Oline. maybe grab a prototypical wide out if our young guns dont work out.

his goal in year three? superbowl baby. we still have the scary D but now there is protection and time for JC. we have wide outs that are experienced and we have three years under the same coaching staff. JC can pick apart Ds using his growth under zorn and a much improved O line.



as far as the thread title goes, i dont see this as dannys plan. this is what i see as zorns plan. if the danny gets rid of zorn after we dont win the superbowl this year scratch winning anytime soon, and he will indeed be one of the worst owners out there.
IF on the other hand he lets zorn have some room, maybe zorny can get his multi year plan in effect. maybe the team he is starting to build will get a chance to perform. maybe danny will let his team make him look good.