The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

chicosbailbond wrote:stay with ramsey b/c he is cheaper...

Stay with Ramsey because he is better

1niksder wrote:

chicosbailbond wrote:stay with ramsey b/c he is cheaper...

Stay with Ramsey because he is better

point taken... I agree with that...

RhodeSkin wrote:Ol' Danny Boy may no longer be the long arm of the law but he still holds the purse strings. And in case you didn't notice, Gibbs has never had a problem with two starting QB's. Do yourself a favor and go back in history: count just how many times, including this season, that Gibbs intentionally hired two starting caliber QBs. (1988, 1991, 1983/84, 2004)

Joe Gibbs is the King of Depth. That is a fact. Danny is trying to prove that he the the King of the Cap. That is a fact. Money is not an issue -- its the play that counts.

Of course Dan holds the purse strings, he's the owner. But, he has delgated all responsibility to Joe Gibbs to resurrect the franchise, and that mean Joe gets what Joe wants.

Joe Gibbs never brought 2 starting quality QBs in. He brought one guy in to be the starter and another guy who was serviceable or drafted a guy to train.

1983 QBs-Joe Theismann and Bob Holly
1984 QBs-Joe Theismann and Jim Hart
1988 QBs-Mark Rypien, Doug Williams and David Archer
1991 QBs-Mark Rypien and Jeff Rutledge
2004 QBs-Brunell, Ramsey and Hass


Can't find complete info on who the third QBs were in 83, 84 and 91, but that doesn't change the fact that Joe won with pretty average QBs most of the time. Aside from Theismann, the rest were helped tremendously by Gibbs system. Which one of those backups was a starting quality QB brought in to challenge the starter? I can't seem to figure it out myself...

I'm not saying Gibbs wants inept backups. I just mean if we had Manning on our team, you wouldn't see Joe go out and try and bring Culpepper in here. I believe that Joe wants his #1 guy to KNOW he's the #1 guy. Brunell was brought in because Joe didn't think Ramsey was ready to be the #1 guy. Ramsey is in the process of proving to Joe that he is and will be the #1 guy next year. Once he does that, you won't see Joe going out and bringing in another guy whose getting offers from other teams to BE their starting guy. That's all I meant

Wait, Ramsey has 29 TDs and only 24 ints? I thought he was an interception machine?

Montana-
Go back to your cabin in the middle of the boonies, and SHUSH!!!!!
PRam is THE MAN. He's tough, smart, fairly mobile, and can thread a needle with a football from fifty yards. He needed time to clear his head of Spurrieritis and learn Gibbs' way. Mission now accomplished. He's our future-as Gibbs pointed out at the beginning of the season.
We have backup as well in Mr. H., while Brunnell can sell peanuts for all I care, or join you and the sheep in Montana pondering deep thoughts......

I think the QB's stay the same!

I think next year we will be looking at the other poitions because:
Patrick will prove he's the future!
unfortunately, I do not think we can move Brunell because of the cap ramifications
Hasselback is a pretty good back-up.

Next year those 2 will get the opportunity to be the #2.

I know we all are V disapointed in Mark but he can be a good influence on both our QB's and we are kind of "commited" to him for next year anyway.

Scottskins wrote:

RhodeSkin wrote:Ol' Danny Boy may no longer be the long arm of the law but he still holds the purse strings. And in case you didn't notice, Gibbs has never had a problem with two starting QB's. Do yourself a favor and go back in history: count just how many times, including this season, that Gibbs intentionally hired two starting caliber QBs. (1988, 1991, 1983/84, 2004)

Joe Gibbs is the King of Depth. That is a fact. Danny is trying to prove that he the the King of the Cap. That is a fact. Money is not an issue -- its the play that counts.

Of course Dan holds the purse strings, he's the owner. But, he has delgated all responsibility to Joe Gibbs to resurrect the franchise, and that mean Joe gets what Joe wants.

Joe Gibbs never brought 2 starting quality QBs in. He brought one guy in to be the starter and another guy who was serviceable or drafted a guy to train.

1983 QBs-Joe Theismann and Bob Holly
1984 QBs-Joe Theismann and Jim Hart
1988 QBs-Mark Rypien, Doug Williams and David Archer
1991 QBs-Mark Rypien and Jeff Rutledge
2004 QBs-Brunell, Ramsey and Hass


Can't find complete info on who the third QBs were in 83, 84 and 91, but that doesn't change the fact that Joe won with pretty average QBs most of the time. Aside from Theismann, the rest were helped tremendously by Gibbs system. Which one of those backups was a starting quality QB brought in to challenge the starter? I can't seem to figure it out myself...

I'm not saying Gibbs wants inept backups. I just mean if we had Manning on our team, you wouldn't see Joe go out and try and bring Culpepper in here. I believe that Joe wants his #1 guy to KNOW he's the #1 guy. Brunell was brought in because Joe didn't think Ramsey was ready to be the #1 guy. Ramsey is in the process of proving to Joe that he is and will be the #1 guy next year. Once he does that, you won't see Joe going out and bringing in another guy whose getting offers from other teams to BE their starting guy. That's all I meant

Let's get the facts straight here:

1983/84: We picked up Jim Hart at the tail end of 1983. He was an extremely succesful QB from St. Louis. Actually, a four time pro bowler. Who else was on the roster? Joe Theisman. A two-timer himself.

1988: Mark Rypien (1991 SB MVP) and, who else, Doug Williams. Another success story from Tampa who along with Mark brought us to the SB.

1991: Mark Rypien and, who else, Jeff Rutledge a former long time, and again, succesful Giants backup/starter behind Phil Simms. We also, more importantly, employed Stan Humphries who went on to SD becoming a franchise staple.

2004: While Mark's play this year has been downright terrible, wasn't there a QB "controversy?" How could that happen between a clear starter and backup? No, they were both projected starters this preseason. Gibbs didn't make up his mind until week 1. BRUNELL started until week 8. That would make him a starting QB, at least in Coach (the best mind in football) Gibbs' book.

PRam played well against the G-Men. He may play well for the rest of his career and that would be just fine with me. My point was that Gibbs has many times had two starting QB's. Again I say, that is a fact.

Jim Hart? He played one season with us and it was his 19th!!! You might wanna check his stats out. He wasn't a very good QB. Pro bowls are popularity contests, not awards of skill. Just ask Nate Newton.

As to Rypien and Williams, We had Shroeder left over after Theismann got whacked. Williams was brought in as a backup. He had a very average career in Tampa Bay as the starter, and he was 3 years removed from the NFL when we picked him up. We drafted rypien in the 6th round in 86. He was a rookie. How is that a starting caliber QB when he was brought to the tem?

Jeff Rutledge? Your joking right? Check his stats again. His whole career he had 16 TDs and 29 Interceptions.

Yes there was a QB controversy this season. Gibbs first year back from a 12 year layoff. What would you expect? He likes vets. That's why he brought Mark in here in the first place. Ramsey was an unknown quantity to Gibbs. All Gibbs knew was that Ramsey had bad form and didn't know "how" to play NFL QB yet.

You simplify your arguement by saying Gibbs has had two starting QBs on his rosters a lot. So what? There are lots of starters in this league who suck. I was under the impression we were talking about good QBs. 50% career completion percents and close to as many Ints as TDs isn't a quality starter. Gibbs brings in average QBs or young QBs and molds them into quality starters.

The point of all this is that if Gibbs has his starter, he will bring in somebody who he thinks will be a good backup. A guy who can win a few games for him if they have to. He's not going to bring in someone who will undermine the current starter if that starter is serviceable. And that's a fact.

Who on earth ever said anthing about undermining a starter? Not me. A little competition is generally good for the team. Secondly, no one stays healthy all season. While a backup is there for only a couple games every season, you want to win those too.

You're debasing rant on our fomer QB's is sad. My stats are clear -- and by the way, so are pro-bowl votes. It's who the fans say rock. Period. Are you saying the fans were stupid? Wrong?

If I were you, I might go back in time. Maybe watch some old press conferences, old film. These guys were great -- Two at a time.

ScottSkins: Gibbs brings in average QBs or young QBs and molds them into quality starters.

Are we talking about the same Joe Gibbs? Joe like veteran leadership. Why do you think Brunnel started this season as long as he did. Wow, Joe Gibbs want young QB's. What's next? Does Joe Gibbs employ a West Coast Offense, too?

RhodeSkin wrote:Who on earth ever said anthing about undermining a starter? Not me. A little competition is generally good for the team. Secondly, no one stays healthy all season. While a backup is there for only a couple games every season, you want to win those too.

You're debasing rant on our fomer QB's is sad. My stats are clear -- and by the way, so are pro-bowl votes. It's who the fans say rock. Period. Are you saying the fans were stupid? Wrong?

If I were you, I might go back in time. Maybe watch some old press conferences, old film. These guys were great -- Two at a time.

I said undermining a starter. That's what bringing in a quality NFL starter does to the current starter in most cases. You said Gibbs always brings in two quality starting QBs. Competition is usually good for most positions on the team, but QB isn't usually one of them. Most QBs are fragile mentally until they become great. That's where that deer in the headlights look comes from. Once that happens, it's usually over for them. That's why Joe didn't want to start Patrick until Joe had him ready, and that's why Mark Brunell was brought in in the first place.

That's why I said Gibbs wants a good backup. Somebody that can come in and win a few games if they need to. I'm not debasing anyone, I'm simply stating the facts. They had bad numbers before they came here, and some of them while they were here. You expect me to give props to Heath Shuler as well, or how about Danny Wuerfel? Gibbs doesn't want competition at QB. He wants his starting QB to perform. All of this QB controversy started after Gibbs retired. He never ever wanted a QB competition because it hinders most guys performance at the QB position.

Yes, in fact I am saying some fans are stupid and wrong about some players when it comes to the pro bowl. They are also very very biased when they vote. It's a popularity contest pure and simple. Every year there are many many players who make it simply on reputation alone, regardless of what they did that season..


I don't need to watch film, I have the stats and I watched them when they played. Yes we had Mark Rypien and Doug Williams at the same time. So what? Joe didn't bring Mark in when Williams was the starter, to give him competition. He drafted him for the future. When Mark got in the game, he played great. How does that validate your arguement? You said he brought in two good QBs to compete with each other. That's not what he did at all.

RhodeSkin wrote:ScottSkins: Gibbs brings in average QBs or young QBs and molds them into quality starters.

Are we talking about the same Joe Gibbs? Joe like veteran leadership. Why do you think Brunnel started this season as long as he did. Wow, Joe Gibbs want young QB's. What's next? Does Joe Gibbs employ a West Coast Offense, too?

Yes Joe does want Young QBs. He wants them to sit and learn on the bench. In Joe's day, almost all QBs sat on the bench for at least two years. Patrick isn't a rookie, but he needed some time to unlearn a few things. On ESPN Radio today, they were talking about how at the start of the season Patrick just wanted to throw long all the time, even though Joe told him not to. He wasn't happy running it Joe's way. Now, 2 months later Patrick is really happy to do it Joe's way. The same way Joe USED to do it. Run run run, pass 5 yards, run, pass 5 yards, pass 40 yards.

I know how Joe Gibbs does things Rhodeskin. I watched it for years and years. You can act like I don't know what I'm talking about, but it really comes down to logic and my part and blanket statements on yours. We'll see in the offseason. I'll eat crow if Joe pays another QB $50 mil to come to the Redskins.

and btw, Gibbs offense IS the real west coast offense. He learned it from Don Coryell dontcha know....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside ... _football/

Wow, this is going really far. Never, ever, did I put Danny W or Heath Shuler in line with our former greats.

And by the way, I watched Joe's first tenure, too. I, as well, remember when Joe was the O-Coordinator in SD. I also happen to remember the tail end of Don Breaux's QB career there too. It's not West Coast Offense, though. Talk to Jim Mora -- I think he might object to which is the real deal WC.

(I know you were only being sacrcastic, by the way. Seems like we have something in common after all. )

lol, it's all good Rhodeskin. We are all rooting for the same team. After this weeks game is over, and we are 5-8, all I will be thinking about is the $30 bucks I won and what the best way to rub it in is =)

Then of course I got the Dallas bets two weeks from now, which include a 30 pack of beer(for winner no points), a 6 pack of beer(that we hold Julius under 71 yards), and loser wears the opposite teams pin on their shirt at work all day Monday(winner no points) =)

I haven't bet on the skins in years, god I hope they don't let me down as they have in the past...

Ummm...how about Hasselbeck ? He's already here, and he'll have been in the system a year already.
You have to like his smarts, if not his arm.

Remember...

way back when...WE just got Patrick? When He first started? He was an unknown to the Redskins organization, and in 2003, Spurriers little gun blasting pawn. But now, we see him turning into a good QB, who READS defense rather than skimming threw it and throwing and INT. He's playing JOE GIBBS conservative-style.

We have to realize that Pram is not a West Coast QB, and this will never be a West Coast offense. The whole Joe Gibbs scheme is protect the QB, and do Play Action. PRam is showing he can still gun sling, while at the same time putting up some good numbers. When he's in the pocket he's confident, and comfortable, and able to have a good eye for recievers. He's not aiming to high or too low. Coming into the Gibbs system from Spurriers was obviously hard for him because Spurrier gun slinged him 24/7 while Gibbs said he will only be passing to 2 WRs most of the time.

PRam is the future whether you like it or not because he's a weapon and he's finally being utilized the correct way.

He isnt a Peyton but he damn sure is above average.

Give this kid a shot in washington ( like so many are)