The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

And one other thing, if he was playing with a broken foot to the point where it was affecting his abilities, he should have advised the coaching staff.

JP,
It must be nice in your world, man. I respect you as a fan, but wonder about your fuzzy logic. You seem to believe things because someone tells you to....odd in an educated man, very odd.
Brutal is playing with a broken everything. His head, his arm, his feet, his confidence, his team's confidence in him, his fan's(I know that's an oxymoron)confidence in him, you name it, it's broke-busted-flat-zip-zilch-nada-zero.....
GET IT??????

Brutal is playing with a broken everything. His head, his arm, his feet, his confidence, his team's confidence in him, his fan's(I know that's an oxymoron)confidence in him, you name it, it's broke-busted-flat-zip-zilch-nada-zero.....

Skinner, I would have expected more out of you than this rambling diatribe with no real substance to it. I would like to know your source for insinuating that Brunells teammates don't have confidence in him? Name the player that has said he doesn't have confidence in Brunell. Oh, also, could you also include the comments that that player made so I can form an opinion based on that comment? Also, if Brunell has broken everything (i.e. arm, feet, head, etc..) name the specific injuries that he has. Have you met with Brunell to be able to ascertain if he has all these "broken everythings"? You as a fan can certainly say you don't have confidence in him, but as far as having confidence in him, Joe Gibbs does and that's all that matters.

GET IT??????

Not from your post I don't. I really don't see any real substance in your arguement. The only thing I see in your post is wanton allegations that have no substance or basis.

I think Gibbs has proved his loyalty to Brunell. At what point is it safe for him to say "You're just not playing well"?

Ok here...whoever thinks that Mark Brunell is a good decision because of loyalty is the biggest pile of BS I have ever heard. The nfl consists of players who produce at their position...and if they dont then they are not in the nfl. Brunell each week flat out stinks up the joint. From the games I have been watching I think Brunell has had 3 games....3 games(ALMOST HALF OF THE GAMES) of below 100 yards passing. And those of you who say give it time....the guy has had 8 games to prove himself and has not even come close to doing that. Brunell has had his fair shot now what about Ramsey?...you gonna base your opion on 1 half of a game against the giants when he had to come in and try to clean up Mark's mess...give me a break....Joe Gibbs does have all of you fooled.

I think Gibbs has proved his loyalty to Brunell. At what point is it safe for him to say "You're just not playing well"?

That's a good point riggofan! And, all I can come up with as an asnwer is more than eight games into his first season back. Other than that, maybe after we've been mathematically eliminated from playoff contention.

Other than that, maybe after we've been mathematically eliminated from playoff contention.

You don't need mathematics to tell you that we've been eliminated from the playoffs. Brunell completing less than 50% of his passes and throwing for under 100 yards might get the job done against the Bears and Lions, but that's not going to get it done against the Eagles and Steelers, who account for 3 of our next 5 games. We should beat the Bengals and the 49ers but we'll be lucky to beat anyone else with our passing game in it's current condition.

You are assuming that because he doeasn't say it publically, that he doesn't say it to Brunell himself. That is the Gibbs style, and I would be willing to bet that they have discussed it behind closed doors where it should be discussed.

JPFair wrote:Thank you SJ. FINALLY someone sees the point that I'm making.

First off, I know Patrick 'can move us' because he has. He came right in off the bench and took us to the redzone 4 times. One pass was dropped that should have been a TD, but we settled for a field goal and the other three were picked.

Three picks? In ONE half? Has Brunell did that this year? It doesn't matter if Ramsey can throw for 500 yards a game if the picks are going to destroy any momentum. If you look at those picks he threw, had they not been thrown, that game would have been won.

And, let me tell you, you do NOT know that Patrick can move us downfield. You merely THINK he can. It's not for YOU or anyone of us to decide whether he can or not. It's up to Joe Gibbs. And with all due respect to you, I'd beleive Joe Gibbs' abilities to run a football team long before I beleive yours.

I am accusing Joe because Joe is accusing Joe. Get with the program. He has said many times its his coaching that cost us the game, when we all know it's QB.

Again, you THINK it's the QB. I'll beleive whatever Joe Gibbs tells me. As far as Joe Gibbs blaming himself, he absolutely should be blaming himself. Authority can be delegated, but responsibility can not be. Joe Gibbs is responsible for what happens to this team? Are you hinting that we should bench Joe Gibbs?

And I am not saying that Brunell is the better QB. I personally think that in time, Ramsey will be the better QB. I think Brunell earned the starters job. He did not earn a job contingent on his production halfway through the season. He is the starter. You do NOT abandon your plan just because things are going bad after only eight games. That's ludicrous. Do I wanna see Ramsey in there? ABSOLUTELY I do. I'd love to see what he can do. But, do I have patience? Yep!! I've seen what Joe Gibbs is capable of, and if he replicate even 25% of what he's done for this franchise and it's fans, I'm willing to wait as long as it takes. I have all the faith in the world in Joe Gibbs. If I ever lost that faith, I can assure you it won't come after eight games in his first season back. He took this job for a reason, and he knows what he's up against. It's going to take time.

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Why are you trying to turn this into the fans Vs. Joe Gibbs showdown, Instead of it being Fans vs. Brunell and his lack of abilities??

We are saying the QB sucks and you get off base by saying "Trust Joe."
We do trust Joe, but that does not neglect the fact that Brunell sucks. If you don’t see that Brunnell sucks, then I am wasting my time here.


For you to respect Joes QB decision, you have to be elated that we have a kick butt defense.

I can only say that I cringe a lot while watching Brunell play. Last year I cringed a lot watching Ramsey play - usually because he was getting pounded into the turf.

At this point I don't know if Ramsey will be good, average or better than Brunell, what I DO know is Brunell is painful to watch (through my eyes and I gather other eyes).

Sometimes a new quarterback can create a spark for the team, and this offense could use a spark - or a blowtorch.

Since this is MY team (I was here before Joe came and God willing will be here after he's gone) I feel obligated to voice my opinion!!!

At this point I don't know if Ramsey will be good, average or better than Brunell, what I DO know is Brunell is painful to watch (through my eyes and I gather other eyes).

Absolutely right!!! I want Ramsey in but there are no guarantees. What I believe will benefit us is the ability to evalaute his progress.

Why are you trying to turn this into the fans Vs. Joe showdown, Instead of Fans Vs. Brunell and his lack of abilities??

Me turning it into a fans vs Joe showdown? Absolutely NOT. But, if you look at the tone of many of the posts from the last two days, you'll see a growing sense of anger at Joe Gibbs, not at Brunell, for keeping him in there. Two particular posts stand out, where one poster said he didn't think Joe should have been hired in the first place. Another one said Joe is starting to really piss him off. So, no, I'm not making it fans vs Joe Gibbs, but I truly beleive that we should support Joe Gibbs in his decision to keep Brunell in there. We might not like it, but we can still support Gibbs and Brunell for his decision. I'm not trying to turn it into anything, I'm just expressing my opinion. And, my opinion is that I don't like the negativity towards Joe Gibbs over the last couple of days over the Brunell thing. That's just MY opinion. I think we owe it to Joe Gibbs to support his decision.

We are saying the QB sucks and you get off base in a "message board" by trying to overlap our opinions with yours

Isn't that what this message board is all about? Aren't we here to express our opinions and open them up for discussion? Who's turning it into a showdown? I'm merely expressing my opinion on what I think is the wrong attitude by a number of people towards Joe Gibbs. That's all!

Who care who respects Joe?

I would hope that you would, and the fans would. I'm sure most of the fans do. As for you, that's your decision which you are entitled to.

Only thing I care about as fan is winning

That's ALL you care about? Boy, that really is sad. Me, I care about the Redskins whether they win or lose. I care about this team and how our Coach can bring this organization back to respectability and eventual glory. I care about the lack of support that our Coach gets, in spite of the countless hours that he's putting in trying to right this ship. I care about a hell of a lot more than just winning. Maybe you should too. Just a suggestion!

JP - I have seen those posts as well and I just ignore them because they are not worth acknowledging. We all want to win - you especially - one more trophy for your avatar.

FYI - you are due for an upgrade. PM me.

JPFair wrote:

Why are you trying to turn this into the fans Vs. Joe showdown, Instead of Fans Vs. Brunell and his lack of abilities??

Me turning it into a fans vs Joe showdown? Absolutely NOT. But, if you look at the tone of many of the posts from the last two days, you'll see a growing sense of anger at Joe Gibbs, not at Brunell, for keeping him in there. Two particular posts stand out, where one poster said he didn't think Joe should have been hired in the first place. Another one said Joe is starting to really piss him off. So, no, I'm not making it fans vs Joe Gibbs, but I truly beleive that we should support Joe Gibbs in his decision to keep Brunell in there. We might not like it, but we can still support Gibbs and Brunell for his decision. I'm not trying to turn it into anything, I'm just expressing my opinion. And, my opinion is that I don't like the negativity towards Joe Gibbs over the last couple of days over the Brunell thing. That's just MY opinion. I think we owe it to Joe Gibbs to support his decision.

We are saying the QB sucks and you get off base in a "message board" by trying to overlap our opinions with yours

Isn't that what this message board is all about? Aren't we here to express our opinions and open them up for discussion? Who's turning it into a showdown? I'm merely expressing my opinion on what I think is the wrong attitude by a number of people towards Joe Gibbs. That's all!

Who care who respects Joe?

I would hope that you would, and the fans would. I'm sure most of the fans do. As for you, that's your decision which you are entitled to.

Only thing I care about as fan is winning

That's ALL you care about? Boy, that really is sad. Me, I care about the Redskins whether they win or lose. I care about this team and how our Coach can bring this organization back to respectability and eventual glory. I care about the lack of support that our Coach gets, in spite of the countless hours that he's putting in trying to right this ship. I care about a hell of a lot more than just winning. Maybe you should too. Just a suggestion!

I care about losing too. Thats why I want Brunnell to sit down.

To me football is entertainment. I am not entertained at all.

I care about losing too.

You do? Didn't you just say that "all I care about as fan is winning"? Which is it? In any event, being a fan of the Redskins, I hope, is about more than just winning or losing. The objective might be to win, but it is by no means the only thing that one should care about.

I for one will eat a whole crow for wanting brunell to start the season. Now i think its time for a change. Brunell has passed for less than 100 yds in 4 out of 8. Why does anyone defend gibbs for keeping him in? Its not like we are winning. I dont know how long our D can keep the fire they do continually being on the field.
Does anyone know who craig krenzel is? A rookie who was inserted into the bears lineup after quinn struggled to pass for over 100 yds. a game.And guess what? he is winning and throwing for over 200 yds. a game. The bears arent folding camp thinking its over, so what makes me think our team would do the same? If anything i think a fire would be started and a possible playoff berth.

JPFair wrote:

I care about losing too.

You do? Didn't you just say that "all I care about as fan is winning"? Which is it? In any event, being a fan of the Redskins, I hope, is about more than just winning or losing. The objective might be to win, but it is by no means the only thing that one should care about.

Details, Details

Let it be clearly expressed that I will always be a Die Hard "Wahington Redskin" fan despite me thinking the 'Honorable Coach Gibbs'is making a big mistake with this QB situation.

I will point out again that JP's question was simply about whether the coach's decision to pull Mark and put in Pat was as easy as it might seem to all of us.

IMO this was not meant to create a very anti QB sentiment OR a question about our great coach. It was a question about where we might be if the decision to check him out proved to be wrong.

Joe seems to have decided that it will be a little longer before he decides to pull Mark and that's good enough for me.

I am still convinced his plan is to have a succesful program for the long term and not to satisfy this years dreams.

We do trust Joe, but that does not neglect the fact that Brunell sucks. If you don’t see that Brunnell sucks, then I am wasting my time here.


For you to respect Joes QB decision, you have to be elated that we have a kick butt defense.

I wanna see Ramsey in there as bad as the next person, but why the hurry? We're going to be Redskins fans next year too, aren't we? Yes, it would be nice to win and nice to see Ramsey in there. But, there's no point in rushing it and it would be even worse, I think, to question Joe Gibbs' decisions. Joe Gibbs has put his heart and soul into this team, and I think the least he deserves is our support.

Yes, Brunell is having an awful year and I too cringe when he drops back to pass. But is Ramsey really the solution right now? We'd like to think he is, but who are we? We're just fans. Let's see how this thing plays out, but give them a chance. Eight games is not giving them a chance. And yes, I'm ecstatic that our defense is so damn good. A good point! What was Joe Gibbs first move after deciding to come back and coach the Redskins? GREGG WILLIAMS!!!!

I don't think that Ramsey will play bad when he does finally come in. He'll make some mistakes, but just because he's going to try too hard. That's what happened in the Giants game. He will be a huge upgrade from Brunell undoubtedly. BUT, you guys are pouncing on JP when he only asked a simple question.

So I want to say, I agree with JP. Gibbs has his reasons for not throwing Ramsey in there right now or earlier in the season. He DOES know more than you, me and everyone else that is a fan or a writer about making a winning team. This team is making huge strides. Bitch and moan about Brunell all you want. I'm right there with you. It pains me to watch him play. But once you start degrading Joe Gibbs, you've crossed the line. Joe will get it done. There is no doubt about that in anyone's mind who has watched him for the last 20 years or so. If your so impatient after 12 years of losing that you can't give him a season, the why even watch football anymore?

JPFair wrote:

There is nothing like making generalized statements that are not correct. Last year Ramsey (playing with a broken foot) had a QB rating of 75.8 through 11 games, completed 53.1%, 2166 yards, and threw 14 TDs. So that would meen at a "usual" pace of 3 INTs per game he must have thrown 33 INTs. Heck at a 2 INT per game pace he would have thrown 22 or even at a 1 per game that would be 11. But he actually only threw 9 in 11 games (less than one per game). His rookie season he threw 8 in 10 games. Again, less than 1 per game!!! I think I made my POINT!

And how many of those games did the Redskins win? I think I made MY point! And one other thing, if he was playing with a broken foot to the point where it was affecting his abilities, he should have advised the coaching staff.

No, you didn't make your point. Did you watch any of those games last year? The defense didn't play ANYTHING like they're playing this year. Throw this year's defense (and ST) in with last year's offense, and boy do we have one heckuva team...with a LOT more wins. Our D last year couldn't stop a pee wee league team. This year they are playing their collective hearts out for the man they beleive in....Gibbs.

SkinsJock wrote:I am still convinced his plan is to have a succesful program for the long term and not to satisfy this years dreams.

Bill Parcell went for the quick fix last year and took a 5-11 team to the playoffs...... Take a look at them now

parcells wasn't trying to go for a "quick fix". he knew that they needed to rebuild, and used the season to evaluate the talent he had. their success was clearly a fluke (helped by great coaching, i reluctantly admit), and not because parcells did anything to try to make them better right away (in terms of personnel). he didn't bring in a real QB, or a real RB. he gave the kids a shot to show if they could/should be part of the future there.

the season showed him they needed a real QB and RB, and instead of trying to get a "quick fix" he brought in a brand new QB to develop (henson) and drafted a RB (julius jones) to build the team with.

joe gibbs comes into a much different situation with the redskins. we don't need to rebuild. we have the talent to win NOW, we just need the coaching. we never needed to go get a new #1 QB, we had a great one coming along in ramsey.

apparently gibbs (who is clearly a god as coach, but is unproven as a GM) saw the QB position as a problem, that would prevent us from winning NOW. brunell was an attempt at a "quick fix" so we could have an experienced winner come along and lead us to triumph. clearly that isn't working, so why not go back to letting ramsey continue to develop (especially since he is better than brunell anyway)?

he will. Next season, just like I believe he planned all along

and mark my words, Parcells quits the cowboys after this season or the next without taking them to the championship game even =)

that's if they are lucky enough to make the playoffs in that time lol

Scottskins,

You hit the proverbial nail on the head! WELL SAID!!!

1niksder wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:I am still convinced his plan is to have a succesful program for the long term and not to satisfy this years dreams.

Bill Parcell went for the quick fix last year and took a 5-11 team to the playoffs...... Take a look at them now

Well he need to do quick fixes again........


Dallas is struggling because of turnover due to Parcells ramping up of the passing game.

Testicles suck and Quincy Carter is dearly missed.