The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

DEHog wrote:Ok understood, but this isn't about how "good" Cousins is anymore. IMO it's about what the market will bare...he has already shown he can play at a high level in the NFL. Take a look around the league and look at the contracts some of these one year (and in some cases less than a full year) wonders have signed! Kirk's agent understands his value right now he and Kirk are more that happy to allow the Skins to continue to showcase his talent to the tune of 24 mil...With the cap going up who know what he'll get next year...that 58 Million might happen...David Carr just got 25 mil...what has he done that Kirk hasn't?

A lot of quarterbacks can get you to 8-8 or 9-7 or even 10-6 and miss the playoffs. And a lot of them can do it cheaper than Kirk Cousins.

Therefore, I couldn't care less what David Carr has done because I could make the same argument of Andy Dalton.

What has Kirk Cousins done that Andy Dalton hasn't done?

If I am understanding your post correct, I believe you are saying that Cousins should get a contract similar to Daltons. If that is the case, I can tell you that most within the NFL consider that contract to be a joke (at this point) and a great success for CIN looking in retrospect. Dalton's agent, Jeff Nalley, isn't exactly one of the best in the biz. He's the guy behind Kaep's idiot "opt out" this past March, the guy Geno Smith fired after his draft fall, and the one that was suspended for two years back in the late 90s for giving cash gifts to college players. Dalton's deal is for 6 years, 96M with 17M guaranteed. Dalton has since been a perennial pro-bowler. The fact he hasn't renegotiated is crazy to me. But Dalton and Nalley are both Houston guys --- and, trust me, that connection runs deep down here.

Now that being all said --- Dalton's deal was given to him EARLY, there was speculation that his performance was directly tied to his WR options (Green, Sanu, Jones, Gresham, Eifert), and he was already (as of end year 2013) being considered a "playoff loser" (considering it was fresh off his 3 INT playoff game vs. SD). His contract is widely considered (after Y2) a year-to-year deal as nothing truly is guaranteed.

However, the big difference is that Dalton's contract was signed in 2013 effective 2014. QB contracts have skyrocketed since that time. Beginning in 2014 (effective 2015) guarantees more than doubled and averages went up nearly 20% (comparing 2012-2014 vs. 2015-current).

So I don't think you can compare Daltons deal to Cousins ---- in any respect. And as EVERYONE has been saying ---- it's about the market, not the player. The market favors Cousins --- and the fact 5 teams would sign him when he hits the market. Would Dalton have been able to say the same thing? I'm not so sure.

as I've posted before - with or without Cousins, this franchise is not going to be successful with Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder

Not signing Cousins to a long term deal earlier was a huge mistake

Not signing Cousins to a long term deal in 2017 was only because the market value was way above what Cousins is worth

that being said, I can't see McCoy or Sudfeld as the Redskins starting QB in 2018



moving right along with the "wait until next year" Redskins FO

markshark84 wrote:If I am understanding your post correct, I believe you are saying that Cousins should get a contract similar to Daltons. If that is the case, I can tell you that most within the NFL consider that contract to be a joke (at this point) and a great success for CIN looking in retrospect. Dalton's agent, Jeff Nalley, isn't exactly one of the best in the biz. He's the guy behind Kaep's idiot "opt out" this past March, the guy Geno Smith fired after his draft fall, and the one that was suspended for two years back in the late 90s for giving cash gifts to college players. Dalton's deal is for 6 years, 96M with 17M guaranteed. Dalton has since been a perennial pro-bowler. The fact he hasn't renegotiated is crazy to me.

Now that being all said --- Dalton's deal was given to him EARLY, there was speculation that his performance was directly tied to his WR options (Green, Sanu, Jones, Gresham, Eifert), and he was already (as of end year 2013) being considered a "playoff loser" (considering it was fresh off his 3 INT playoff game vs. SD). His contract is widely considered (after Y2) a year-to-year deal as nothing truly is guaranteed.

However, the big difference is that Dalton's contract was signed in 2013 effective 2014. QB contracts have skyrocketed since that time. Beginning in 2014 (effective 2015) guarantees more than doubled and averages went up nearly 20% (comparing 2012-2014 vs. 2015-current).

So I don't think you can compare Daltons deal to Cousins ---- in any respect. And as EVERYONE has been saying ---- it's about the market, not the player. The market favors Cousins --- and the fact 5 teams would sign him when he hits the market. Would Dalton have been able to say the same thing? I'm not so sure.

Where I was going with that was if a team were to give Andy Dalton a contract right now what would it look like? Why should Kirk Cousins' contract look any different from that? I'll even ignore the fact that Dalton was a higher draft pick and has been to the playoffs more times than Kirk Cousins. Would any team offer him $26 million a year with $53 million guaranteed? That might be the market for Aaron Rodgers but it certainly isn't the market for Andy Dalton, who is or isn't in the top ten quarterbacks depending on who you ask. The same is true of Kirk Cousins. He's not a consensus top ten quarterback. The market does not say a team should pay a #10 quarterback like he's a #1 quarterback. There's a huge gap there.

Derek Carr's contract might say he's paid an average of $25 million a year with $70 million guaranteed but if you look at the numbers he's only counting that amount against the cap one year out of five. All the other years are lower and 2017 he only counts $15.5 million against the cap. Kirk Cousins wouldn't even consider signing the same deal. He's going to bilk the franchise tag for as long as the Redskins are willing to pay it. Then his agent is going to try to set a new bar for quarterback salaries, which is going to crash and burn for the team who meets his salary demands. Let that be a team other than the Washington Redskins. Kirk Cousins is not now nor will he ever be a franchise quarterback. He's put up a bunch of meaningless stats in a passing-dominated league. Big deal.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

DEHog wrote:It's not about what you and I think...It's what the market command! You don't think the Raiders saw what was going on in DC and acted accordingly. Carr's deal will look go in a few years when team are paying QB's 30 mil a year!!

True. It's about what the front office thinks. The front office doesn't think. Bruce Allen is an empty suit who only has the job because of his father.

I just don't want to see the team pay anyone else record money only to have them become mediocre at best. I think the Skins have cornered the market on that. Archuleta, Haynesworth, etc.

Agreed and the Skins will live or die by that decsion. If the Skins are waiting for Kirk to fall off a little this year so they can get him a bit cheaper, IMO opinion they are sadly mistaken if they think that it will lower his value in FA. I've already heard this explain away by others...he lost two starting WR, he plays for a team with poor defense etc...

Trade! What are we waiting for???

DEHog wrote:Agreed and the Skins will live or die by that decsion. If the Skins are waiting for Kirk to fall off a little this year so they can get him a bit cheaper, IMO opinion they are sadly mistaken if they think that it will lower his value in FA. I've already heard this explain away by others...he lost two starting WR, he plays for a team with poor defense etc...

Maybe I'm just jaded to the fact that the Skins always die by their decisions.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

DEHog wrote:Agreed and the Skins will live or die by that decsion. If the Skins are waiting for Kirk to fall off a little this year so they can get him a bit cheaper, IMO opinion they are sadly mistaken if they think that it will lower his value in FA. I've already heard this explain away by others...he lost two starting WR, he plays for a team with poor defense etc...

Maybe I'm just jaded to the fact that the Skins always die by their decisions.

Ha isn't that the truth..Heard RG is willing to sign a long term deal

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:Some here think that Cousins is a possible HOF QB

"Some" here need to use their brains. There isn't one Hall Of Fame quarterback who never won a playoff game. Kirk Cousins has taken the team no further than Robert Griffin III took the team and the last time I looked Griffin was looking for a job.
Cousins has a longer leach because he was a 4th round draft pick, not a three 1sts and a 2nd trade for the #2 pick. But when it gets down to brass tacks Cousins hasn't done anything. Some idiot on Facebook made the case that Dan Marino never won a Super Bowl so he wasn't a good quarterback either by my logic. I made the case that he just compared a Hall Of Fame quarterback with dozens of passing records set in a running era to Kirk Effing Cousins, who will only see the Hall Of Fame, based upon his current achievements, if he buys a ticket.

The Redskins front office can't ever do right by everyone. If they pay players half of the fans lose their *sh$t*. If they refuse to pay players the other half lose their *sh$t*. It's six of one, half dozen of the other.

At this point I don't care if they pay him $35 million a year, trade him, cut him, or shoot him. I'm just tired of hearing about him. He's making me long for the days when RGIII was the subject of every discussion.

All of our offers to Cousins have been a year late - at least.

That lowball offer we made last year would've looked pretty good before the season started the year before that and he almost undoubtedly would have signed. That's probably what Scot wanted to do.

Though Sonny Jurgensen was on the roster of four playoff teams I don't think he ever won a playoff game and he is in the Hall of Fame.

Cousins is a good NFL QB but he's not a really good NFL QB and thankfully we'll be looking for a QB to build a team around

I doubt that Cousins gets much better and nobody with any sense would think he's even close to being as good as Sonny

we need a FO without Bruce Allen and, more importantly, for Dan Snyder to stop making decisions on who coaches and plays here

Though Sonny Jurgensen was on the roster of four playoff teams I don't think he ever won a playoff game and he is in the Hall of Fame.[/quote]

Good point DM. While winning playoff games and the SB are good measures of a QB ability, it is not the only measure as there are very good QBs that never win a playoff game. Another name to include is Y.A. Tittle.

DarthMonk wrote:

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:Some here think that Cousins is a possible HOF QB

"Some" here need to use their brains. There isn't one Hall Of Fame quarterback who never won a playoff game. Kirk Cousins has taken the team no further than Robert Griffin III took the team and the last time I looked Griffin was looking for a job.
Cousins has a longer leach because he was a 4th round draft pick, not a three 1sts and a 2nd trade for the #2 pick. But when it gets down to brass tacks Cousins hasn't done anything. Some idiot on Facebook made the case that Dan Marino never won a Super Bowl so he wasn't a good quarterback either by my logic. I made the case that he just compared a Hall Of Fame quarterback with dozens of passing records set in a running era to Kirk Effing Cousins, who will only see the Hall Of Fame, based upon his current achievements, if he buys a ticket.

The Redskins front office can't ever do right by everyone. If they pay players half of the fans lose their *sh$t*. If they refuse to pay players the other half lose their *sh$t*. It's six of one, half dozen of the other.

At this point I don't care if they pay him $35 million a year, trade him, cut him, or shoot him. I'm just tired of hearing about him. He's making me long for the days when RGIII was the subject of every discussion.

All of our offers to Cousins have been a year late - at least.

That lowball offer we made last year would've looked pretty good before the season started the year before that and he almost undoubtedly would have signed. That's probably what Scot wanted to do.

Though Sonny Jurgensen was on the roster of four playoff teams I don't think he ever won a playoff game and he is in the Hall of Fame.

I knew Sonny Jurgensen. And Kirk Cousins is no Sonny Jurgensen.


NFL champion (1960)
5× Pro Bowl (1961, 1964, 1966, 1967, 1969)
2× First-team All-Pro (1961, 1969)
Second-team All-Pro (1967)
5× NFL passing yards leader (1961, 1962, 1966, 1967, 1969)
2× NFL passing touchdowns leader (1961, 1967)
NFL passer rating leader (1967)
NFL 1960s All-Decade Team
70 Greatest Redskins
Washington Redskins Ring of Fame
Philadelphia Eagles Hall of Fame

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:
Though Sonny Jurgensen was on the roster of four playoff teams I don't think he ever won a playoff game and he is in the Hall of Fame.

Off hand, I think Sonny was on five playoff teams:

- 1960, on bench as backup to Norm Van Brocklin when Eagles beat the Packer for NFL Championship

- 1961, started for Eagles in the "Runner-up Bowl", lost to Lions. (Who remembers the Runner-up Bowl?)

- 1971, broken arm. Might have sat on bench watching Billy lose to 49ers.

- 1972, torn achilles, watch SB 7 from stands.

- 1974, tossed into the game in the 4th quarter as Rams had taken good-sized lead. Time running out, weird old George Allen handed the ball to Sonny, who seemed to say, as he trotted / walked to the huddle: "What does he expect me to do NOW?" THen released, because George really was a bit bonkers.

Kirk Cousins? Probably not a Hall of Famer, but, as someone suggested a year ago, better than Brad Johnson and Trent Green, and likely the best Redskin QB since the Joe Gibbs days. Cousins cannot throw a long pass like Mark the Rypper, but overall, Cousins is very good.

I'm not sure how I was quoted as saying something DarthMonk said but the information on Sonny is interesting nevertheless.

If Kirk Cousins' ceiling is anything less than reaching a Super Bowl, and it is, then he should not be paid like a franchise quarterback, regardless of how he compares with Redskins quarterbacks who preceded him.

Based on 2016: Matt Ryan, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Derek Carr, Dak Prescott.

If I'm being generous I put Kirk Cousins 5th, between Brees and Carr. The gap between 5th and 1st on this list is immeasurable.

Go ahead and tell me again how the market justifies paying a maybe #5 at best quarterback who gets bumped down to #10 or #11 if we start talking about Super Bowls and playoff games like the best quarterback in the league.

If Kirk Cousins was offered anywhere near top five money and refused it he's not at all about being a Washington Redskins quarterback.

Is anyone going to argue he needs the extra $2 million a year between $23 million and $25 million a year to feed his family?

There was an NBA player who made that argument once. A year or two later he was out of the league.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:I knew Sonny Jurgensen. And Kirk Cousins is no Sonny Jurgensen.

Yes, my Lloyd Bentsen.



You are probably right. Nevertheless, Sonny is a HOF QB who never won a playoff game belying

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:There isn't one Hall Of Fame quarterback who never won a playoff game.

welch wrote: Off hand, I think Sonny was on five playoff teams:

- 1960, on bench as backup to Norm Van Brocklin when Eagles beat the Packer for NFL Championship

- 1961, started for Eagles in the "Runner-up Bowl", lost to Lions. (Who remembers the Runner-up Bowl?)

- 1971, broken arm. Might have sat on bench watching Billy lose to 49ers.

- 1972, torn achilles, watch SB 7 from stands.

- 1974, tossed into the game in the 4th quarter as Rams had taken good-sized lead. Time running out, weird old George Allen handed the ball to Sonny, who seemed to say, as he trotted / walked to the huddle: "What does he expect me to do NOW?" THen released, because George really was a bit bonkers.

As you say, he watched "from stands" the year he tore his Achilles (in October) and is therefore not listed as being on that playoff roster. He didn't play in the one victory (and 2 of the losses) whence ...

DarthMonk wrote:Though Sonny Jurgensen was on the roster of four playoff teams I don't think he ever won a playoff game and he is in the Hall of Fame.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't put Cousins in Jurgy's class. Beside the points, though.

Darth, you're missing the Runner-up Bowl. That was a playoff game between the NFL Eastern Division runner-up and the Western Division runner-up. Sonny took over the Eagles QB spot in 1961, when Norm Van Brocklin retired. I think he first game was in 1961, a week or so after the NFL championship game. And, yes, Sonny was the best passer I have ever seen.

Is Cousins worth $20 million a year or $30 million? Doesn't matter. The market sets a price and the NFL has already declared, by "tag" number, the minimum price per year for Cousins. The NFL is not a socialist system except among owners. However, nothing requires Cousins to sign for anything less than he will make in 2017.

Time to trade Cousins for whatever can be gotten. He'll be gone soon. This is another rebuilding year. Time to start Colt McCoy.

welch wrote:Darth, you're missing the Runner-up Bowl. That was a playoff game between the NFL Eastern Division runner-up and the Western Division runner-up. Sonny took over the Eagles QB spot in 1961, when Norm Van Brocklin retired. I think he first game was in 1961, a week or so after the NFL championship game. And, yes, Sonny was the best passer I have ever seen.

Is Cousins worth $20 million a year or $30 million? Doesn't matter. The market sets a price and the NFL has already declared, by "tag" number, the minimum price per year for Cousins. The NFL is not a socialist system except among owners. However, nothing requires Cousins to sign for anything less than he will make in 2017.

Time to trade Cousins for whatever can be gotten. He'll be gone soon. This is another rebuilding year. Time to start Colt McCoy.

Since the Bert Bell Benefit Bowl, aka, the Sh!t Bowl, did not knock anyone out of a tournament for the title game, it is not considered a playoff game. Maybe we should write to pro-football reference.

It was actually played AFTER the title game. It was played after the the 1960 through 1969 seasons. Jurgy was in the second one.

Lombardi used it as motivation since no one wanted to play in it.

It was certainly a post season game ... but whatever.

#shrug

DarthMonk wrote:You are probably right. Nevertheless, Sonny is a HOF QB who never won a playoff game belying

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:There isn't one Hall Of Fame quarterback who never won a playoff game.

I realize it's a technicality but if you're on the active roster of a team who won a playoff game then you've won a playoff game.

Sonny was on the 1972 team that would have kicked Miami's ass if he had been able to play.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:I realize it's a technicality but if you're on the active roster of a team who won a playoff game then you've won a playoff game.

Sonny was on the 1972 team that would have kicked Miami's ass if he had been able to play.

By that logic Tom Brady's back up won a few playoff games last year!

Also, Sonny was not on the active roster during the playoffs when the Redskins won playoff games.