The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Prowl33 wrote:I heard they have a shade installed that can go over it. Jerry just "decided" to not use it this game... not sureven if there is any truth in it, but it's jerry so I'm willing to believe it.

I can believe it, because there's no way they let that happen on a regular basis. But, we still chose which end of the field to defend, so we could have been going the other way.

DarthMonk wrote:We coached scared and desperate.

Turns out all we had to do was play our game.

We went for two way too early, attempted an onside kick way too early, and put Fat Rob in the wildcat for crying out loud.

Those three decisions betrayed a lack of confidence in the team from Jay Gruden.

Misses from 50+ are going to happen but all you got to do with the sun in front of you is keep your head down like any good golfer would know. Let your caddy (holder) watch where it goes. Pick a target just in front of the ball and swing your leg through it.

Nah, me thinks he was use to "trick plays" having been in Arena League and all. Some fans say "go for broke" and when Jay does, he still gets the shaft.

Lost that game on D. They were gassed out and played slow.......especially Whitner. He should NOT be playing in space. Put Cravens out there 1/2 or 3/4 of the time.

SkinsJock wrote:

DarthMonk wrote:We coached scared and desperate.

Turns out all we had to do was play our game.

We went for two way too early, attempted an onside kick way too early, and put Fat Rob in the wildcat for crying out loud.

Those three decisions betrayed a lack of confidence in the team from Jay Gruden.

Misses from 50+ are going to happen ...

^^ what he said - I could not agree more

Jay should have let these guys do what they're capable of - we did not need to beat ourselves or try anything tricky

I'm sure there are some coaching decisions to nitpick, but our defense was incapable of stopping Dallas the entire game. Really not much more to it than that.

I didn't really love the onside kick call, mostly because I thought Dallas expected it. But I understood why he did it. We needed a turnover or an extra possession on offense. Defense wasn't going to stop s***.

We came close to recovering that kick too. People would be singing a different tune in that case. Wasn't anything "scared" about that call at all.

Ryan Grant totally botched the last onside kick. He ran right by the ball to block Elliott. How is that guy still on the roster?

StorminMormon86 wrote:Ryan Grant totally botched the last onside kick. He ran right by the ball to block Elliott. How is that guy still on the roster?

That was C00ley's take on the radio the other day too. Pretty much pointed out that Grant appeared to puss out on that play.

tribeofjudah wrote:Nah, me thinks he was use to "trick plays" having been in Arena League and all. Some fans say "go for broke" and when Jay does, he still gets the shaft.

If you want to call me saying he went for 2 too early or me saying that going "wildcat" was another example of desperation/lack-of-confidence ... if you want to call me saying that ... giving Jay "the shaft" ... well ... OK.

I'm just callin' it how I see it and I think it's pretty obvious.

tribeofjudah wrote:Lost that game on D.

I won't argue that ... not much anyway. But missing 2 FGs, kicking onside very early, and not kicking a PAT very early only hurt us. It also sent a bad message to the team.

riggofan wrote:I'm sure there are some coaching decisions to nitpick, but our defense was incapable of stopping Dallas the entire game. Really not much more to it than that.

I'm doing way more than nit picking a few coaching decisions. Going for 2 that early is a fundamental gaffe and betrayed a lack of confidence and smelled of desperation.

riggofan wrote:I didn't really love the onside kick call, mostly because I thought Dallas expected it. But I understood why he did it. We needed a turnover or an extra possession on offense. Defense wasn't going to stop s***.

I understand too. We (Jay) did not beleive we could get it done the old fashoined way.

riggofan wrote:We came close to recovering that kick too. People would be singing a different tune in that case. Wasn't anything "scared" about that call at all.

Yes there was. He was afraid we could not stop them enough.

You actually make the argument for me. I'll just throw in the extra words your quote lacks:

riggofan wrote:Jay was afraid the Defense wasn't going to stop s***.

Guess which team only punted once and guess which team punted twice.

Anyway ... first 6 drives went

TD Dallas
Missed FG Redskins
Punt Dallas
FG Redskins
FG Dallas
Missed FG Redskins

No reason to panic. Down 10-3 and kicking ourselves for not being down 10-9 or maybe up.

Then down 17-6 at the half.

We open the half by punting then making them punt. Then we score ... and go for 2 with 23 minutes left in the game. Why? To get within 3 ? Please. How about getting within 4 and telling your D to stop 'em like you just did so we can go up 3 next time we get the ball instead.

It takes more balls to believe in your team than it does to resort to desperate measures in the third quarter when you just made them punt and you trail by 5 with a PAT pending.

DarthMonk wrote:It takes more balls to believe in your team than it does to resort to desperate measures in the third quarter when you just made them punt and you trail by 5 with a PAT pending.

I guess so, man. Just watching that game I didn't have any feeling like the defense had much hope of stopping anything. Maybe you saw something different, I dunno.

The Pukes had just scored on a 75 yard drive the previous possession, and it made it look ridiculously easy. I don't think personally think it was some insane gamble to say we gotta keep their offense off the field if we want to have any hope of winning this thing.

DarthMonk wrote:Then we score ... and go for 2 with 23 minutes left in the game. Why? To get within 3 ? Please. How about getting within 4 and telling your D to stop 'em like you just did so we can go up 3 next time we get the ball instead.

I don't see why this was any kind of big deal. Whether we made the FG or missed the two point conversion, the defense didn't stop them on the next possession. They steamrolled us for 75 yards over four minutes. Completely embarrassed us. If we were down four points or five, WTF difference would that have made?

riggofan wrote:

DarthMonk wrote:Then we score ... and go for 2 with 23 minutes left in the game. Why? To get within 3 ? Please. How about getting within 4 and telling your D to stop 'em like you just did so we can go up 3 next time we get the ball instead.

I don't see why this was any kind of big deal. Whether we made the FG or missed the two point conversion, the defense didn't stop them on the next possession. They steamrolled us for 75 yards over four minutes. Completely embarrassed us. If we were down four points or five, WTF difference would that have made?

... or 3. Exactly. Makes no difference. But it tells the team "We are desperate for points and even though YOU JUST MADE THEM PUNT I don't think you can do it again."

I'm talking about a mental attitude and confidence. That's the difference it makes.

We scored 3 TDs, tried 4 (and made 2) FGs, failed on one 2-pointer, and punted once.

Dallas scored 4 TDs, tried (and made) 1 FG, and punted twice.

What I'm saying is we can and did play them "toe-to-toe" but our head coach belied that with three decisions that, to me, smelled of fear - fear of not being able to score from the 5 with our normal offense, fear of not being able to force another punt though we had done so in 2 of their first 5 possessions (not counting their 3-second possession to end the half) and held them to a FG on a third, fear of not being able to beat them "straight up."

It's OK for me to have that fear in my man cave. It's not OK for the coach to show it.

If you don't think he did - that's cool. I think he did.

DarthMonk wrote:If you don't think he did - that's cool. I think he did.

Yeah I hear you.

It was just such a good game overall, especially with the odds against us in a lot of ways. I didn't feel at the end like, "damn we coulda won that if Gruden had done this or that." Seemed like a handful of "almost" moments where we had a chance to make a play and just didn't quite get it. A couple times where they *almost* had Dak wrapped up and didn't get it done. Wasn't there an almost INT too?

Oh well, sucks to lose to the Cowboys in any fashion.

I'm with DM on this - Gruden better find a way to stop coaching 'scared'

If we don't get to the playoffs and win a game he could be looking for a job

SkinsJock wrote:I'm with DM on this - Gruden better find a way to stop coaching 'scared'

of course you are. I look forward to you posting "coaching 'scared'" repeatedly for the next week or two until you find something else to parrot.

SkinsJock wrote:If we don't get to the playoffs and win a game he could be looking for a job

yeah, right. That guy may be signing a freaking extension after this season. Playoffs or not.

I don't blame you - I've been so wrong about a lot of things ...

Gruden has never really looked like he was confident on the sidelines or that he's from the same family as that other guy

I'm not going to bash him about it at all - just saying it would be nice to see a bit more from him in these coming games

riggofan wrote:I didn't feel at the end like, "damn we coulda won that if Gruden had done this or that."

Me neither.

I can be hard headed sometimes.

What did happen to me during the game was this. We ran the team out to go for 2 and I asked why? We kicked onside and I asked why? Rob took a direct snap and I asked why? I formulated an answer.

I was in my car and called C00ley and Kevin to offer final thoughts on the game and dude before me said almost exactly what I was going to say even citing the same 3 plays.

SkinsJock wrote:I'm with DM on this - Gruden better find a way to stop coaching 'scared'

If we don't get to the playoffs and win a game he could be looking for a job

Jay will stay put for another year...............regardless. Does scraping everything and starting over help us? I think not.

tribeofjudah wrote:Jay will stay put for another year...............regardless. Does scraping everything and starting over help us? I think not.

Agreed. There seems to be a good core of young coaches and players that are growing with each other right now, and they're having some success. I say leave it be.

The only coaching change I wouldn't be upset about is D coordinator, but is the Defense's porosity really due to the scheme or is it a lack of talent? For instance, up front I like Kerrigan, Compton, Baker, and Hood... but that's about it. Nobody is regularly making a game-changing impact up there.

Near as I can tell bad coaching judgement lost both of the games to Dallas. I'll commend Gruden for preparing the team to play but once the ball is kicked he needs to give up the headset to a conservative old pro. You can't fix bad judgement.

While I’m not sold on Gruden, I do think he stays put another year. That said it’s always about who’s avalible. ey said on air yesterday exactly what I was thinking watching the Jets/Pats game, if the Jets let Bowles go the Skins should sign him ASAP!! This would give us a great DC and a HC in waiting if needed??

oj wrote:Near as I can tell bad coaching judgement lost both of the games to Dallas. I'll commend Gruden for preparing the team to play but once the ball is kicked he needs to give up the headset to a conservative old pro. You can't fix bad judgement.

Yeah like that third and one play. We only needed one yard to get the first down. Really could have used a conservative old pro to run the ball, get the yard, move the chains and eat up some clock. Instead, that reckless bastard allows the team to take a deep shot to DJax for a touchdown. Can't fix bad judgement.

hah. Seriously, there's no doubt Gruden is an aggressive coach. I don't really agree with the comment that it shows he's "scared". I did read in the past day or two something comparing him to the same gambler's mentality that Ron Rivera shows. Its not for everyone. It irritates me personally though that its easy to complain about judgement when a play doesn't work. Recover that kick and people would be on here singing a far different tune.

We had a slim chance going into that game because of the scheduling IMO. I was happy to see Gruden just going for it, trying to get the win.

tribeofjudah wrote:Jay will stay put for another year, regardless. Does scraping everything & starting over help us? I think not.

There's a good chance Gruden stays but you're wrong that he's here "regardless" ....

letting Gruden go does not mean we'd be "starting over" - this is Scot's team - the players and coaches are accountable

SkinsJock wrote:letting Gruden go does not mean we'd be "starting over" - this is Scot's team - the players and coaches are accountable

Whether or not players and coaches are accountable to Scot McCloughan, hiring a new coaching staff does in fact mean "starting over". We've had how many coaches in the past twenty years? Name one time where a new coach came in and things stayed the same as the previous regime.

Interesting note btw. Did you know Dan Snyder has never once signed an extension or a new contract for a coach?

People can gripe about Gruden all they want, but he's spent three years building up one of the most exciting offenses in the NFL. Bruce Allen hired him and by all accounts loves him. If people really believe Dan Snyder is dancing in the owners box during one of the most exciting games ever at Fedex, a high scoring shellacing of Green Bay, thinking how he might get rid of Jay Gruden after the third year of an expensive five year contract, they are completely deluded.

riggofan wrote:It irritates me personally though that its easy to complain about judgement when a play doesn't work. Recover that kick and people would be on here singing a far different tune.

That irritates me too when people sing a different tune after the fact. Bad decisions are bad decisions - like the ones to kick onside and go for 2. Them working would've just been bad decisions that worked out.

I guess you'll just have to trust me when I saw us lining up for 2 and pretty much everyone in my room said "Too early." And that I voiced this "I smell an onside kick here - too early." And "What the hell are we doing in wildcat?"

DarthMonk wrote:That irritates me too when people sing a different tune after the fact. Bad decisions are bad decisions - like the ones to kick onside and go for 2. Them working would've just been a bad decisions that worked out.

What makes these decisions bad other than the fact that you didn't like them?

Deciding to try heroin is a bad decision. Going for 2 in a football game is just a decision that people can choose to agree with or not.

The players and coaches are not 'accountable' to Scot - they are accountable for what they do

Scot has given Gruden what he wanted - let's see how this season finishes up ...

Gruden can make a strong case for staying - he needs to

riggofan wrote:

DarthMonk wrote:That irritates me too when people sing a different tune after the fact. Bad decisions are bad decisions - like the ones to kick onside and go for 2. Them working would've just been a bad decisions that worked out.

What makes these decisions bad other than the fact that you didn't like them?

Deciding to try heroin is a bad decision. Going for 2 in a football game is just a decision that people can choose to agree with or not.

Not a perfect comparison but ...

Let's say you are playing Texas Hold 'em and you need to complete a flush to win the pot. There are 9 cards out of 46 that will help you so the odds against you are roughly 5-1. A bet has just been made and the size of the pot is 4 times the size of a call. So the pot is offering you 4-1. Calling uses the rest of your chips so this would be your last bet.

Calling is a bad decision regardless of what card comes on the river.

So far I have not answered your question - I've only clarified that bad decisions can be bad decisions regardless of outcomes.

Chasing points before you need to is intrinsically bad in football. You may disagree but it's not a matter of my likes.

Examples:

If a team takes a 1 point lead with 30 seconds to go, the reward for scoring 2 more demands you try since a 2 point lead in this scenario really is no better than 1. Thus, going for 2 here is an intrinsically good decision.

Conversely, if a team takes a 1 point lead halfway through the first quarter, failure to succeed in going for 2 is just as likely to hurt later as success is to help you later. A 2 point lead here is different than a 1 point lead. For instance, 2 + 7 gives a 9 point lead, not 8. OR 2 + 3 + 3 gives an 8 point lead not 7. Of course, 3 is even better but 2 is better than 1 unlike the late-game scenario.

The point is, the following is more and more true the earlier in the game:

Failure to succeed in going for 2 is just as likely to hurt later as success is to help you later.

The opposite is more and more true in the late stages of a game. In my late-game scenario, failure essentially cannot hurt you while success is huge.

I have watched football at all levels since the mid-sixties. I have found that going for 2 is almost never justified until at least the final 5 minutes. Extreme wind a few weeks ago was an exception.

When we lined up in wildcat it was pretty clear Dallas had no reason to be concerned about Rob throwing. Going wildcat there was another bad decision.

Fortunately we scored anyway yet I still hate the call - and for good reason - it was a bad decision.

My interpretation of all 3 decisions (the onside kick too) is that Jay felt we needed to do something special to win - that our game was not up to the task. He was "afraid" we weren't good enough and therefore he tried to "coach us up" to a win over a "superior" team.