The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Prowl33 wrote:A lot of you guys solutions are the exact reason we are in the dumpster year after year. QB has a couple bad games and you want to pour on gasoline and light a match. Say you do that, then what, colt mccoy? He won't do any better, Sudfeld? Alright kid but considering him would be a joke. Force a 1st round pick into our system next year? How many times has that worked for us? Get a vet? Sorry but that has failed us every time too.

He deserves criticism sure, but you're telling me you would take Jay cutler, Brock osweiler, Blake bottles, case keenum, fitzpatrick, Gabbert... and likely a few others I would argue too. Qbs are a rare commodity, and ours at worst is servicable, at best is pretty good. If we want to talk QB, let's get the team to the point where it's a good QB away from making a super bowl run first... and we definitely aren't there yet.

What I am telling you (and everyone else), in the interest of avoiding strawman arguments, is that Kirk Cousins' ceiling is limited. We've seen the best he will ever have to offer. We may have to live with that because, as you've pointed out, there are a lot of marginal starting quarterbacks in the league. To get the opportunity to draft a good one a team has to either really suck or trade the farm. We've already gone the "trade the farm" route and the team won't suck enough with Cousins running the show and with McCloughan's personnel talent to get a top three draft pick.

We're paying Cousins $19.95MM this season to find out if he's worth paying for the long haul and what he's worth paying for the long haul. Thus far he's worth about $5MM a season less than he thinks he's worth.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:What I am telling you (and everyone else), in the interest of avoiding strawman arguments, is that Kirk Cousins' ceiling is limited.

I'm genuinely curious, do you see his ceiling as someone like an Alex Smith, Andy Dalton type? And if so, would you be okay with resigning him on a team friendly 2-3 year deal moving forward (assuming his play resembles more like 2015 and less like 2014)?

Kirk Cousins isn't the answer and its better to cut bait now. I have learned he had to take an adult confidence class! What Franchise QB has confidence issues? We have already seen how he is, he throws picks, has been inconsistent and that was his biggest problem in College. The only issue people even like Kirk is mostly because they are or were pissed at the RGIII fiasco and when he heated up last year people started to hope he was the answer. He is not. This is just a fact and it's time to accept it. Cousins, Gruden nor Barry are the answers here unless you want perennial losing seasons as we have been having.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

Prowl33 wrote:A lot of you guys solutions are the exact reason we are in the dumpster year after year. QB has a couple bad games and you want to pour on gasoline and light a match. Say you do that, then what, colt mccoy? He won't do any better, Sudfeld? Alright kid but considering him would be a joke. Force a 1st round pick into our system next year? How many times has that worked for us? Get a vet? Sorry but that has failed us every time too.

He deserves criticism sure, but you're telling me you would take Jay cutler, Brock osweiler, Blake bottles, case keenum, fitzpatrick, Gabbert... and likely a few others I would argue too. Qbs are a rare commodity, and ours at worst is servicable, at best is pretty good. If we want to talk QB, let's get the team to the point where it's a good QB away from making a super bowl run first... and we definitely aren't there yet.

What I am telling you (and everyone else), in the interest of avoiding strawman arguments, is that Kirk Cousins' ceiling is limited. We've seen the best he will ever have to offer. We may have to live with that because, as you've pointed out, there are a lot of marginal starting quarterbacks in the league. To get the opportunity to draft a good one a team has to either really suck or trade the farm. We've already gone the "trade the farm" route and the team won't suck enough with Cousins running the show and with McCloughan's personnel talent to get a top three draft pick.

We're paying Cousins $19.95MM this season to find out if he's worth paying for the long haul and what he's worth paying for the long haul. Thus far he's worth about $5MM a season less than he thinks he's worth.

I don't agree you have seen the best from a what was a first year starter last year... but let's say it was. The best he has to offer broke a franchise passing record and was the most accurate QB in the entire NFL last year. That is not a low ceiling so your arguement is completely contradictory to your point.

It's 2 games in, let the man play some football. Run the ball to take the pressure off him, stop the other team from scoring points to take the pressure off him. Let the kid work out is issues and start balling again.

StorminMormon86 wrote:

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:What I am telling you (and everyone else), in the interest of avoiding strawman arguments, is that Kirk Cousins' ceiling is limited.

I'm genuinely curious, do you see his ceiling as someone like an Alex Smith, Andy Dalton type? And if so, would you be okay with resigning him on a team friendly 2-3 year deal moving forward (assuming his play resembles more like 2015 and less like 2014)?

I'm making this up as I go along. I neither have, nor make any claims to have any "inside information" or any knowledge not privy to everyone else on this site. I only know what my eyes tell me.

Having said that, I think Andy Dalton is Kirk Cousins' ceiling. A team could do a lot worse than that.

The primary difference here is in the contract Cousins sought last season and the contract he's earning this season. It's a huge difference.

I think keeping Cousins on a three year deal averaging $15MM makes one hell of a lot more sense than signing him to a five year $100MM contract with $50MM guaranteed.

I think Cousins is passable. I also think he has the benefit of an offensive line playing exceptionally well in pass protection and keeping him upright.

I think it will take another two or three seasons for Scot McCloughan to fill the other holes on this roster.

I think even if he (McCloughan) wanted another quarterback it would take several drafts to find one.

I think Gruden and McVay have a lot invested in Cousins and Gruden's job certainly, if not both of their jobs, rest on Cousins' ability to turn this season around.

As an aside, I don't think it would be fair to blame McVay for Cousins not making the plays. The plays are there to be made.

I think Cousins starts every game this season (barring injury) a) because of the $19.95MM guaranteed salary and b) because there's a zero percent chance they franchise tag him again.

McCloughan has to know by season's end what to do in re: The Cousins Dilemma.

while we're frustrated with what we've seen from Cousins, barring a meltdown, Cousins, Gruden and McVay are here and what happens over the next 14 games determines their futures - nothing much has really changed except that the ramifications for Cousins and Gruden are pretty big - right now, we look like we're going to finish last in the NFC East and that will mean a new HC in DC

Scot was never certain that Cousins was going to be worth signing to a big, long term deal ... Scot has been trying to add a good QB since he realized what he had with Griffin

I hope for this to play out in this way. First off Jay Gruden and his Arena League offense get's exposed for the carnival show it really is. This isn't a offense that will last or work in the NFL. Second Cousins leaves he isn't a franchise QB. Third Joe Barry get's fired. He stinks as a DC. It appears he hasn't learned anything since his tenure in Detroit and I don't care about his stint as a LB coach in San Diego. When was their LB unit ever feared while he coached them? Sean McVey also needs to go. I don't care about this up and coming OC talk or the respect that these coaches have. Cause how many wins does respect get you? Lastly I hope we get the #1 draft pick next year and I hope that Scot picks the QB from Louisville. He is a monster and a duel threat which I think this NFL is moving towards.

DaSkinz Baby wrote:Jay Gruden and his Arena League offense get's exposed for the carnival show it really is. This isn't a offense that will last or work in the NFL.

Yeah, the West Coast Offense has only been around since 1971 and garnered dozens of Lombardi trophies. It's obviously a flash-in-the-pan gimmick that will follow the run-and-shoot into NFL obscurity.

Deadskins wrote:

DaSkinz Baby wrote:Jay Gruden and his Arena League offense get's exposed for the carnival show it really is. This isn't a offense that will last or work in the NFL.

Yeah, the West Coast Offense has only been around since 1971 and garnered dozens of Lombardi trophies. It's obviously a flash-in-the-pan gimmick that will follow the run-and-shoot into NFL obscurity.

His version, cause you know his version has how many trophies? Seems that every time his VERSION OF THE WCO gets in the playoffs it's a first round loss. Or does that not matter to your expert analysis?

DaSkinz Baby wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

DaSkinz Baby wrote:Jay Gruden and his Arena League offense get's exposed for the carnival show it really is. This isn't a offense that will last or work in the NFL.

Yeah, the West Coast Offense has only been around since 1971 and garnered dozens of Lombardi trophies. It's obviously a flash-in-the-pan gimmick that will follow the run-and-shoot into NFL obscurity.

His version, cause you know his version has how many trophies? Seems that every time his VERSION OF THE WCO gets in the playoffs it's a first round loss. Or does that not matter to your expert analysis?

That's an execution issue, not a scheme issue.

So between his time in Cincy and the years here it's execution? Okay you call it what you want I will call it what it is, a side show carnival act as well as an inability to properly coach not 1 team but 2!

DaSkinz Baby wrote:I hope for this to play out in this way. First off Jay Gruden and his Arena League offense get's exposed for the carnival show it really is. This isn't a offense that will last or work in the NFL. Second Cousins leaves he isn't a franchise QB. Third Joe Barry get's fired. He stinks as a DC. It appears he hasn't learned anything since his tenure in Detroit and I don't care about his stint as a LB coach in San Diego. When was their LB unit ever feared while he coached them? Sean McVey also needs to go. I don't care about this up and coming OC talk or the respect that these coaches have. Cause how many wins does respect get you? Lastly I hope we get the #1 draft pick next year and I hope that Scot picks the QB from Louisville. He is a monster and a duel threat which I think this NFL is moving towards.

How the hell could anyone want this? This is a worst case scenario and exactly what's plagued this team for over 20 years, inconsistency. Anytime any thing goes wrong, the automatic response is burn the whole thing down and start over.

Look at the facts. We won the east last year. Kirk lead the league in completion % and broke a franchise record. Gruden inherited a team with little talent, and didn't get a GM who knew how to build one till last year. We have probably be the best group of pass catchers in the nfl. Our offensive line gives up almost the fewest sacks in the NFL. We have I think a great group of OLBs that are being handicapped by a bad group of D linemen and MLBs. We have a good defensive backfield also being handicapped by the front line, that is currently trying to find the scheme that works best with the talent it has.

That is not something you fix by giving a new Gm, new hc, Oc, dc, and qb. You change those things, you set us back another 5 years.

Really all we need to know this: We will never win a Super Bowl with Captain Pick. End of story

hitmandm wrote:Really all we need to know this: We will never win a Super Bowl with Captain Pick. End of story

We don't need him too, we need him to provide us with enough stability to continue to get us to the playoffs long enough to build the rest of the team then replace him as the last piece.

Prowl33 wrote:

DaSkinz Baby wrote:I hope for this to play out in this way. First off Jay Gruden and his Arena League offense get's exposed for the carnival show it really is. This isn't a offense that will last or work in the NFL. Second Cousins leaves he isn't a franchise QB. Third Joe Barry get's fired. He stinks as a DC. It appears he hasn't learned anything since his tenure in Detroit and I don't care about his stint as a LB coach in San Diego. When was their LB unit ever feared while he coached them? Sean McVey also needs to go. I don't care about this up and coming OC talk or the respect that these coaches have. Cause how many wins does respect get you? Lastly I hope we get the #1 draft pick next year and I hope that Scot picks the QB from Louisville. He is a monster and a duel threat which I think this NFL is moving towards.

How the hell could anyone want this? This is a worst case scenario and exactly what's plagued this team for over 20 years, inconsistency. Anytime any thing goes wrong, the automatic response is burn the whole thing down and start over.

Look at the facts. We won the east last year. Kirk lead the league in completion % and broke a franchise record. Gruden inherited a team with little talent, and didn't get a GM who knew how to build one till last year. We have probably be the best group of pass catchers in the nfl. Our offensive line gives up almost the fewest sacks in the NFL. We have I think a great group of OLBs that are being handicapped by a bad group of D linemen and MLBs. We have a good defensive backfield also being handicapped by the front line, that is currently trying to find the scheme that works best with the talent it has.

That is not something you fix by giving a new Gm, new hc, Oc, dc, and qb. You change those things, you set us back another 5 years.

This team has been set back for going on 25 years. We won the East last year? Is that what you call it? Well coming from a coach that coaches football believe me they didn't win they fell into it along with injuries that plagued the other NFC East teams last year. What's the sense of having the best pass catchers in the NFL when you have a non confidence having QB with an interception gene? What's the sense in having all them pass catchers when you have a bush league defensive coordinator who sucks? Sorry dude I have been down this same rabbit hole the past 20 odd years. I refuse to do it again. This coaching staff and their pick of QB is pathetic. Kirk got lucky last year based on teams played. He is yet to beat a team with a winning record, and he has shown when he first came into the league he is a interception machine. #FACTSPEAKFORTHEMSELVES

Where were 50% of the posters in this thread last year?

Deadskins wrote:

DaSkinz Baby wrote:Jay Gruden and his Arena League offense get's exposed for the carnival show it really is. This isn't a offense that will last or work in the NFL.

Yeah, the West Coast Offense has only been around since 1971 and garnered dozens of Lombardi trophies. It's obviously a flash-in-the-pan gimmick that will follow the run-and-shoot into NFL obscurity.

I find myself agreeing with the Dead Man more and more. Should I be concerned?

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

DaSkinz Baby wrote:Jay Gruden and his Arena League offense get's exposed for the carnival show it really is. This isn't a offense that will last or work in the NFL.

Yeah, the West Coast Offense has only been around since 1971 and garnered dozens of Lombardi trophies. It's obviously a flash-in-the-pan gimmick that will follow the run-and-shoot into NFL obscurity.

I find myself agreeing with the Dead Man more and more. Should I be concerned?

Personally the West Coast Offense works. That statement is true, however there are modifications to this offense. I am only dealing with facts as I see them. The questions I have are based on Jay Gruden's tenure in Cincinnati where they were consistently beaten soundly in the FIRST ROUND of the Playoffs and add that to the game last year why should I have any faith that his version can win in the post season when there is nothing but stats and factual information that his version doesn't work? Another question I have when Kirk Cousins came into the league and what 85% of the time he played he threw interceptions more than TD passes just because the division teams were hurt and we played no team with a winning record and fell into winning the division last year does that resolve Cousins penchant for throwing picks? What did we see last week with a team that doesn't even have a good defense? We saw interceptions, we saw terrible play calling and all of a sudden I am not suppose to believe stats and my own eyesight? I am not concerned because I have faith that this coaching staff will be relieved of it's duties and Cousins will not be signed to a long term deal. I hope that Scot our GM will pick his coach. I believe then we might see some growth and some better play but until Jay Gruden who isn't Head Coach Material is gone along with Sean McVey and Joe Barry are fired this team will continue to suck. Next year Garcon and Jackson will be gone and all we will have is a fumbling running back and a damn good tight end and a slot receiver in Crowder. The jury is out on Doctson. I would feel a lot better with Colt McCoy playing. I bet he won't throw picks and would pick up yards using his legs. We were in the redzone 6 times last week against a bad defense and how did this offense fair? But you are asking if you should be concerned? Really???

Prowl33 wrote:

hitmandm wrote:Really all we need to know this: We will never win a Super Bowl with Captain Pick. End of story

We don't need him to - we need him to provide us with enough stability to continue to get us to the playoffs long enough to build the rest of the team then replace him as the last piece.

Cousins is not a good enough QB to be able to get this franchise into the playoffs every year

Cousins is still trying to show that he's a good NFL QB - he's not playing well right now - hopefully, he gets it together

this franchise is still rebuilding from the mess created by Snyder - a QB will be added as soon as they can

Scot did not give Cousins a long term deal because he felt he's not good enough - he's maybe a good QB but we have yet to see that

this season has to play out so that Scot can evaluate things - if it continues to go bad then the whole scene changes with a new HC and coaching staff and a new QB

I'm not sure that these coaches and players are going to continue to coach and play as badly as they have these past 2 games

Nupe he's a Bitch ass. But the Redskins are going to hitch their team to this clown?? HES THE SAME GUY. He had 10 good games. IF he were an ELITE QB, he would have stepped up in the last 2 NATIONALLY televised games. Instead, his punk ass had THE DEER IN THE HEADLIGHTS look. This team does this every year but THEY ARE THE ONE MAKING THE DECISIONS. Kirk is a decent back up at best. EVERYONE knows that. Oh, other than the Redskins Management Team/. LOL! =D

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

DaSkinz Baby wrote:Jay Gruden and his Arena League offense get's exposed for the carnival show it really is. This isn't a offense that will last or work in the NFL.

Yeah, the West Coast Offense has only been around since 1971 and garnered dozens of Lombardi trophies. It's obviously a flash-in-the-pan gimmick that will follow the run-and-shoot into NFL obscurity.

I find myself agreeing with the Dead Man more and more. Should I be concerned?

I was wondering the same thing about you.

DaSkinz Baby wrote:Personally the West Coast Offense works. That statement is true, however there are modifications to this offense. I am only dealing with facts as I see them. The questions I have are based on Jay Gruden's tenure in Cincinnati where they were consistently beaten soundly in the FIRST ROUND of the Playoffs and add that to the game last year why should I have any faith that his version can win in the post season when there is nothing but stats and factual information that his version doesn't work?

What stats and factual information are you talking about. Tell me you don't see people getting open, and Kirk missing them? Did you not see Jones run for 4.7 yards a carry? If the plays weren't working, then I might find reason to agree with you, but that's not the case. It's not the offensive scheme, it's the lack of execution, or the refusal to balance the run and the pass. (Note: I don't consider the latter to be due to the scheme, but rather a lack of emphasis on establishing the run.) Still, even with the lack of balance, receivers are getting open, holes are opened for the runners, and Kirk has good protection for the most part. If you put an elite QB out there, and added some more runs to balance out the offense, we could score on anyone, and would win a bunch more games. Kirk's a head case, and we get way too many penalties at inopportune times (some of which may be a reffing issue, as much as a coaching one).

Deadskins wrote:

DaSkinz Baby wrote:Personally the West Coast Offense works. That statement is true, however there are modifications to this offense. I am only dealing with facts as I see them. The questions I have are based on Jay Gruden's tenure in Cincinnati where they were consistently beaten soundly in the FIRST ROUND of the Playoffs and add that to the game last year why should I have any faith that his version can win in the post season when there is nothing but stats and factual information that his version doesn't work?

What stats and factual information are you talking about. Tell me you don't see people getting open, and Kirk missing them? Did you not see Jones run for 4.7 yards a carry? If the plays weren't working, then I might find reason to agree with you, but that's not the case. It's not the offensive scheme, it's the lack of execution, or the refusal to balance the run and the pass. (Note: I don't consider the latter to be due to the scheme, but rather a lack of emphasis on establishing the run.) Still, even with the lack of balance, receivers are getting open, holes are opened for the runners, and Kirk has good protection for the most part. If you put an elite QB out there, and added some more runs to balance out the offense, we could score on anyone, and would win a bunch more games. Kirk's a head case, and we get way too many penalties at inopportune times (some of which may be a reffing issue, as much as a coaching one).

This arena league crap CLEARLY does not work !

I don't much like watching the Redskins run the "all short pass every play" offense. I don't think an NFL team can throw 40 times and run 10. With a decent running game, and running nearly half the time, Cousins will be good enough.

13 games to go for our HC and QB ... lot's of time to show how good they are ... or not