I think some can relate to this.....

[Deadskins]

I agree - we know that RG3 is going to be interested in a lot of places to go but IMO there will not be many that will be equally as interested

Oh he'll have interest for sure. Unfortunately for him the really good teams usually tend to have solid QBs in place already. My guess with Dallas is that they'll draft a guy early to groom and stick with Romo for another year. That would seem to be the smart move.

I predict that RG3 will be starting somewhere week 1 in 2016. I also think he'll be motivated and will come out and play well early on. The biggest challenge for him IMO is always going to be to keep himself healthy. Its good for him in a way that he's had this full year to sit. He has to be as healthy as he's been in some time, don't you think?

I think the pies would have real interest in RGIII. They would let him sit behind Romo while he plays out his career, and hope RGIII would be ready to start in a year or two (a la Rodgers under Favre). Problem is, Romo is pretty brittle these days, and Bob could be forced into action before he's ready.

[SKINS#1]

"Oh he'll have interest for sure. Unfortunately for him the really good teams usually tend to have solid QBs in place already. My guess with Dallas is that they'll draft a guy early to groom and stick with Romo for another year. That would seem to be the smart move.

I predict that RG3 will be starting somewhere week 1 in 2016. I also think he'll be motivated and will come out and play well early on. The biggest challenge for him IMO is always going to be to keep himself healthy. Its good for him in a way that he's had this full year to sit. He has to be as healthy as he's been in some time, don't you think?"

Keeping himself healthy is critical for him to play "his game" where the threat of running keeps the defense guessing.

[riggofan]

I think the pies would have real interest in RGIII. They would let him sit behind Romo while he plays out his career, and hope RGIII would be ready to start in a year or two (a la Rodgers under Favre). Problem is, Romo is pretty brittle these days, and Bob could be forced into action before he's ready.

It was a huge failure on their part not to have a viable backup for Romo this year. So you could be right in your thinking, DeadSkins. Risky move though backing up one brittle QB with another.

[SkinsJock]

the real unknown here is what has he been able to really improve on to make himself be a better QB - I don't have as much concern about his getting injured because if he's become a more rounded NFL QB, he will not be as likely to play the way that he did and put himself at risk - Does anyone really know what he's been doing that could be helpful in that regard? I think that there will only be a few franchises that will suit what he can do if he has not progressed significantly


I just hope that he shows that he can play because there's about 3-4 haters here that will be reminded of their predictions for RG3

[markshark84]

First off ---- I agree with Deadskins. IMHO, this is the best post you have ever written. Whether I agree or disagree with parts of this doesn't take away from the fact I am impressed with it. Please note, I have edited some of the responses to make the overall post shorter.

"he still hasn't gotten a chance" or "I'm not wrong because he hasn't played this year, so we don't really know who is the better QB".

I think the issue doesn't lie with those stances.. as they are honestly fair, with the exception of the last part of the last quote: Kirk is leaps and bounds above Robert at the QB position. I wouldn't blame THEM though... we were led to believe Robert was the best QB on the roster all through TC! ..... maybe the Rgiii crowd could of swallowed the change easier? ....

I disagree --- it does because that is LITERALLY all I hear from those types and they are NOT fair. When combining RGIII's performance, development, and progression with the overall opportunity he was given post-2012 injury and during said performance, I would say he was given more opportunity than almost (and potentially ALL) any QB in the NFL. Take Peyton for example. The dude is a HOFer and was benched after going 7-2 and having 1 bad game (and yes, he was benched, he later took time to recover from injury but he was benched). Had that happened here, people would have flipped their s&!^. Additionally, I don't think anyone objectively can say that RGIII will ever be as good as Cousins was this season as pocket passer or overall -- which makes it even more unfair to Cousins and the coaching staff that made the CORRECT decision. Giving RGIII a 3rd season to verify this would have been insanity. This season, like RGIII in 2013, Cousins didn't have an offseason to prepare as a starter, however unlike RGIII, we witnessed CLEARLY development. And please don't give me the "injury" excuse for 2013. If he wasn't ready, he shouldn't have played --- that was his decision (and doctors) and they said he was ok. We saw no development in 2013 and full on regression in 2014.

And lesson learned for you ---- don't listen to any TC bulls&!^; especially from coaches, players, or FO. I learned a while back to ignore anything you can't SEE FOR YOURSELF. Belicheck created this and people are emulating it. Honesty is for the losers. And the pro-RGIII camp wouldn't be content with ANYTHING other than seeing RGIII start ---- REGARDLESS of who was the best QB. IMHO, the still standing pro-RGIII are the most idiotic, nonsensical bunch I have ever seen in fanboy history. It's like they WANT people to think they're subjective and stupid.

I was pro BEST PLAYER at EVERY position....... THIS is where my problem LIES with Gruden... We were fed so much garbage, how could we form an accurate opinion? Did I ever this season want Kirk benched? no. I would have preferred the same patience with Robert last year- but then there is that injury clause.... Gruden giving his QB full reins and support, even after poor performances is what we needed.

I am not sure about that. Cousins was CLEARLY the best QB in the preseason and you still wanted RGIII. You say that, but I don't buy it. For Gruden --- the garbage we were fed is a POSITIVE for Gruden, not a problem. I like to see HCs and FO being secretive and misleading; it helps the team. He was trying to see what he could get for RGIII, IMHO by saying these things. He had a GM that would trade him if the opportunity was there. I believe you DID want Cousins benched after the NYJ game..... Patience isn't 3 seasons of futility. That is insanity. Patience was 2013 and 3-5 games into 2014 --- it doesn't include yet another year of seeing 0% development. Cousins was given support by Gruden because he had SHOWED Gruden how hard he worked, developed, and he had a terrific preseason and 2 of his first 4 games were better than anything we got last season from the 3. It wasn't patience as much as it was Cousins had given Gruden confidence he could work with him. RGIII showed 0 development in any respect. I don't think the injury clause had anything to do with it; at all. There are no big conspiracy theories; you play the talent.

Well then... had Garcon made the catch then the first preseason game looks much better for Robert too. Did you notice how Gruden had a different set of play calling for Kirk early on, to now? To help him and our young Oline? Maybe "sabotaged" is the wrong word.. but he called plays vs a STOUT pass rush that had very little chance of succeeding. Robert maybe could've done some kind of Payton Manning out there, but that's pretty far fetched I'd say. The ugly plays happened after being ragdolled and concuss, soooo I'm not sure what kind of chance he had to be successful that night- if any at all.

Well then, coulda woulda shoulda...... The playcalls for Cousins-RGIII weren't significantly different AT ALL in regular seasons. Gruden called a TON of short, timing patterns for RGIII and Cousins alike --- it's only now different BECAUSE Cousins proved himself. RGIII just couldn't make the quick reads and didn't do as much analysis at the line as Cousins did. That part is HUGE. Take Tom Brady --- he has been quoted -- well,I'm paraphrasing -- as saying "I can count on 1 hand how many times I didn't know what was coming from the DEF before the snap". As far as the preseason, I gave my reasons and they are valid. Gruden needed to evaluate RGIII on those aspects --- and he failed. RGIII couldn't have had a successful night because he didn't properly prepare and just plain wasn't good enough.

I think you will be hard pressed to find ANYONE on here who didn't recognize Kirks potential...... Like your doubt in Robert ever learning to read a D, (which is so wildly inaccurate. Of course he has, and can read a D, has made progressions.. he is definitely an infant in this regard, but like Kirk- can get better?)

Yes, but recognize it ENOUGH to bench RGIII because of it..... As I said this preseason --- the Cousins' issues are common with inexperience and easily correctable with half a season of experience (I also believe I said if not, we would move on). But that growth was something I personally EXPECTED to happen; in fact, I even said as much directly AFTER the NYJ game (maybe, I don't remember; I'll check). I think the bigger issue was that the pro-Cousins camp thought Cousins potential > RGIII potential. If you were pro-RGIII isn't it safe to say they thought his potential and ability to reach it was more likely? As far as RGIII DEF reading --- I don't think it is likely if he were PURELY a pocket QB, I didn't say it was impossible. I think you were pretty adamant that RGIII SHOULD be starting because Cousins was a liability......

I don't think you predicted after the Panthers beat down or one of his other poor games early on, that his last quarter of the season would be record setting?..... solid pass protection

I never could have predicted this, but expected a good year; not to what he's done the last 3 games. I also don't think he's had great pass protection.

[oj]

The best place for RGIII is a color commentator on a network show. He has all the skills, let him follow in the mold of Theisman.

[SkinsJock]

I'm just going to let Griffin show that he can do what some here do not think is possible ... then we'll have some fun

anything is possible, after all, we witnessed a turnover prone QB with a lack of confidence remake himself into a really good NFL QB

[StorminMormon86]

to understand those here that liked RGIII & were concerned at the outset of this season, you might want to read cowboykillerzRGiii post

This literally had nothing to do with my post, but coming from you, that's no surprise that you missed the point.

[StorminMormon86]

I don't know, man. I follow all of those guys very closely (seems like you do too) all year long and kind of disagree with what you're saying. I think they REPORTED that SOURCES said Griffin was outperforming Cousins and McCoy in OTAs.

I'm not going to have the direct link, but I know Keim was on 980 (beginning of August maybe) and said how Griffin looked improved and that both Cousins and McCoy weren't doing enough to distance themselves from him. Granted, I do think Keim came out later and said that he was limited in what he saw and wasn't there every day like the coaches, but I still found it odd that NOBODY was saying "no trust us...Cousins is REALLY outplaying him".

[Deadskins]

please don't give me the "injury" excuse for 2013. If he wasn't ready, he shouldn't have played --- that was his decision (and doctors) and they said he was ok. We saw no development in 2013 and full on regression in 2014.

I'm not going to debate that whole thing over again, but I will say that just because the knee was healthy, doesn't mean he was ready psychologically to return. This is what I think slowed his ability to develop pocket skills. Then, when he finally had his head back, at the beginning of 2014, he got injured again. So when he came back again, he was a lost cause. That's primarily why I think this season off has been really good for him in a way, and that he might be able to make a comeback in the future. I just hope it won't be with a division rival.

[riggofan]

the real unknown here is what has he been able to really improve on to make himself be a better QB - I don't have as much concern about his getting injured because if he's become a more rounded NFL QB, he will not be as likely to play the way that he did and put himself at risk - Does anyone really know what he's been doing that could be helpful in that regard? I think that there will only be a few franchises that will suit what he can do if he has not progressed significantly

Its a good question man. I have no idea what he's been doing in practice over the past few months. Does he run the scout team or is that McCoy?

At a minimum though, he's had the opportunity to be studying and learning.

[riggofan]

I don't know, man. I follow all of those guys very closely (seems like you do too) all year long and kind of disagree with what you're saying. I think they REPORTED that SOURCES said Griffin was outperforming Cousins and McCoy in OTAs.

I'm not going to have the direct link, but I know Keim was on 980 (beginning of August maybe) and said how Griffin looked improved and that both Cousins and McCoy weren't doing enough to distance themselves from him. Granted, I do think Keim came out later and said that he was limited in what he saw and wasn't there every day like the coaches, but I still found it odd that NOBODY was saying "no trust us...Cousins is REALLY outplaying him".

Just seems weird that anyone would make that comment. Cousins wasn't working with the first team during the off season, not sure how he or McCoy would have had an opportunity to distance themselves in any way. I also don't know how any outside observers would be able to compare those QBs just watching limited practice sessions.

Might be something to your idea about reporters kind of toeing the party line through the off season. My impression from following those guys though was that like most fans, the media was just in wait and see mode up until those first preseason games.

[markshark84]

please don't give me the "injury" excuse for 2013. If he wasn't ready, he shouldn't have played --- that was his decision (and doctors) and they said he was ok. We saw no development in 2013 and full on regression in 2014.

I'm not going to debate that whole thing over again, but I will say that just because the knee was healthy, doesn't mean he was ready psychologically to return. This is what I think slowed his ability to develop pocket skills. Then, when he finally had his head back, at the beginning of 2014, he got injured again. So when he came back again, he was a lost cause. That's primarily why I think this season off has been really good for him in a way, and that he might be able to make a comeback in the future. I just hope it won't be with a division rival.

I definitely see your point. No question. But if he were truly 100% physically, the only psychological hurdle is the worry that he'll reinjure it regardless of the fact he is 100%. And you would think that this worry would be stronger upfront in his first 5 or so games coming back and then the initial worry would dissipate and be replaced by a lingering, under the surface worry which would remain indefinitely (only if he truly felt he was 100% healthy and ready to play in week 1, 2013). As far as his head being back, I would think that would have happened by week 8 of 2013 AT MOST, after having time to adjust and get comfortable. As we saw with Cousins, development is easily seen. We saw 0% development with RGIII from week 1 2013 to week 17 2014. And while everyone's situation is different, other QBs haven't needed 2 years to bounce back (mental or physical) from a knee injury (at least with the newer medicine that make it a 9 month injury).

I don't think the injury had anything to do with in ability to develop pocket passing skills, in any regard. I am not sure how anyone can prove this, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I think this season will ultimately be VERY good for him and perhaps the only way he could learn what he needs to in order to be a successful NFL QB. He has all the physical tools (outside of being injury prone), he just needs the "soft skills" stuff, which this year should have taught him first hand.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

First off ---- I agree with Deadskins. IMHO, this is the best post you have ever written. Whether I agree or disagree with parts of this doesn't take away from the fact I am impressed with it. Please note, I have edited some of the responses to make the overall post shorter.

Thanks? haha

I disagree --- it does because that is LITERALLY all I hear from those types and they are NOT fair... ...And the pro-RGIII camp wouldn't be content with ANYTHING other than seeing RGIII start ---- REGARDLESS of who was the best QB. IMHO, the still standing pro-RGIII are the most idiotic, nonsensical bunch I have ever seen in fanboy history. It's like they WANT people to think they're subjective and stupid.
And lesson learned for you ---- don't listen to any TC bulls&!^; especially from coaches, players, or FO. I learned a while back to ignore anything you can't SEE FOR YOURSELF. Belicheck created this and people are emulating it. Honesty is for the losers.

I think this is our biggest disconnect. You are categorizing those of us that could be described as "RGiii supporters", with the RGiii extremists. There IS a difference. I NEVER claimed Robert was above criticism, nor that he was perfect; I certainly don't fall into the group whom claim he is the second coming of Jesus, and the best to ever lace em up.
I get your point. If you go back 13 pages you can read my "Training Camp Updates.." thread and find some quotes and links.. break downs of the QBs days, and praise for Robert from players and reporters including some from OTHER TEAMS. Off season is slow... I live across the country.. but yes, ultimately you can only trust what you see personally. Nothing new there.

I am not sure about that. Cousins was CLEARLY the best QB in the preseason and you still wanted RGIII. You say that, but I don't buy it... I believe you DID want Cousins benched after the NYJ game.....

ok. don't. Luckily for Kirk, coach stuck by him thick and thin... which has been my biggest gripe about the situation; blatant favoritism ever since he arrived- throwing bob under the bus, then blaming "wind" for Kirks poor play.

Feel free to read the NYJ game day thread, but you are wrong. We were actually pretty much in unison about judging Kirks poor accuracy and bad play.. most wanted to blame the missing players- which of course I got crucified for when bringing up in Roberts defense in the past.
Ultimately I knew enough to know that the 16 million dollar injury clause meant Robert wouldn't see a down, and with the best interests of the team I LOVE, I definitely didn't want to see him on the field at all, even after the poor Kirk performance(s)

but hey, it worked out- so he IS an evil genius!

Well then, coulda woulda shoulda...... The playcalls for Cousins-RGIII weren't significantly different AT ALL in regular seasons.

The season that Robert was injured (yes, AGAIN) and the one both qbs were benched and played like doodoo?

...I think you were pretty adamant that RGIII SHOULD be starting because Cousins was a liability......

With the reports of the offseason saying Kirk was still a turn over machine but with a good command of the O, and Robert was improved in his time with a QB coach... ya, I wanted to see more.
I never once typed that I wanted Robert to start AFTER he went down in preseason with the concussion though. The rift between he and Gruden was to apparent. Coach lit up when talking about Kirk- rightfully so.. But the writing was on the wall with Willie Smith blind siding.


I'm glad to be where we are now.. and if this is the way it had to happen, then there ya have it!

I've never rooted for Kirk to play poor, or us to lose in hopes of Robert returning... I think we are pretty much beating this dead horse beyond dust

[SkinsJock]

good luck with trying to reason with some here - their thinking is that if you're not for Kirk you're obviously against him - screw them

I'm just glad that Scot has a QB to build around and I hope that RGIII can show the haters how worthless their opinions are



The NFL is better off with players playing to their full potential - Kirk Cousins seems to be doing that and Robert Griffin III has a long way to go

[markshark84]

I think this is our biggest disconnect. You are categorizing those of us that could be described as "RGiii supporters", with the RGiii extremists....... I live across the country..

Uh oh...... "extremist" is now a political word you have to tread lightly using..... How about we use RGIII "empathizer"......

I definitely don't consider you an RGIII extremist --- at this point those guys are obvious in that anyone who still wants him to start or thinks he is better than Cousins is one. I now know where you stand, but that was 100% murky even 1 month ago.

Luckily for Kirk, coach stuck by him thick and thin... which has been my biggest gripe about the situation; blatant favoritism ever since he arrived- throwing bob under the bus, then blaming "wind" for Kirks poor play.

Here is another place we disagree. Completely. I don't think Gruden stuck with Cousins thru "thick and thin". After all, Gruden screwed him via QB3 demotion without merit (when comparing his performance against the others) in 2014...... Then in 2015, Cousins clearly showed thru his preseason performance that he worked his butt off over the offseason and he was the best option. Gruden also knew that in order for Cousins to reach his full potential (and not a repeat of the prior season) he needed confidence ---- and without confidence from his HC, Cousins having self-confidence was an impossibility. It was a play by Gruden to get Cousins confident. Cousins has been quoted saying that up until around week 11 he would always think pre-snap "is this the pass that will cost me my career"..... This is one of the reasons I stressed confidence for Cousins in the beginning of the year.

You have to look at it from Gruden's perspective...... RGIII got the last HC fired. He is the owner's little pet. He had been statistically one of the worst QBs in the NFL and up to week 1, 2015 showed absolutely NO signs of development. He threw other players under the bus in a press conference. He made statements like "I'm the best QB.... on the team (or in the NFL depending on who you ask)". And he has a meddling owner that was willing to mortgage the entire franchise on him. It wasn't favoritism AT ALL. In fact, RGIII was given every opportunity to PROVE he was a capable starter ---- and he failed. Meanwhile, Gruden had to do the same thing as anyone else on the planet who wants to fire or demote someone --- you had to give reasons. He also knew that if he got fired, he most likely would never be a HC again --- so he needed people to know his feelings outside of redskins park and that avenue could only be the media.

Feel free to read the NYJ game day thread, but you are wrong. We were actually pretty much in unison about judging Kirks poor accuracy and bad play.

Perhaps, I have to check. I recall saying we weren't as good a team that day and could have never won. That's all I remember.

The season that Robert was injured (yes, AGAIN) and the one both qbs were benched and played like doodoo?

I thought the regular season playcalling was at least similar between the QBs at least in 2014.

The rift between he and Gruden was to apparent.

I think very much of this had to do with Danny boy and RGIII's relationship. Much more than most even think.

[riggofan]

Luckily for Kirk, coach stuck by him thick and thin... which has been my biggest gripe about the situation; blatant favoritism ever since he arrived- throwing bob under the bus, then blaming "wind" for Kirks poor play.

Here is another place we disagree. Completely. I don't think Gruden stuck with Cousins thru "thick and thin". After all, Gruden screwed him via QB3 demotion without merit (when comparing his performance against the others) in 2014...... Then in 2015, Cousins clearly showed thru his preseason performance that he worked his butt off over the offseason and he was the best option.

I don't know why you're bothering man. I just can't even bring myself to respond to this nonsense anymore. Favoritism? Come on fellas. Give me a freaking break. The guy wants to win football games.

So he was tough on Griffin and hasn't been so tough with Cousins? So what? I'm sorry but that's just coaching. If you've ever coached a sport at any level, you know that sometimes you have to be a d--k and sometimes not. Not all situations are the same. You have a big head primadonna QB who is blaming everybody but himself for his performance, that guy probably needs a smack down. You have a QB with potential but also a confidence problem, maybe the right coaching move is to protect him. That QB just set a franchise record for passing, so I'm going to give Gruden the benefit of the doubt.

And yes, Gruden did stick Kirk through thick and thin this year. What choice did he have? He basically staked his job on that decision. Very doubtful he would have been coming back in 2016 if that hadn't worked out.

[StorminMormon86]

Just seems weird that anyone would make that comment. Cousins wasn't working with the first team during the off season, not sure how he or McCoy would have had an opportunity to distance themselves in any way. I also don't know how any outside observers would be able to compare those QBs just watching limited practice sessions.

Might be something to your idea about reporters kind of toeing the party line through the off season. My impression from following those guys though was that like most fans, the media was just in wait and see mode up until those first preseason games.

C00ley, nowadays anyway, makes it seem like it was not close at all throughout the entire preseason.

And now Keim, on 980 about 2 weeks ago, is saying that players went to coaches to voice frustration with the decision by Gruden to not play the best players based off of performance. It was on Sunday afternoon the day after we beat the Eagles, IIRC.