The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

mastdark81 wrote:How is he playing on a bad team? You cannot say he doesn't have the WRS...Garcon/DJax while not hall of famers or consistent probowlers are good WRS (compare them to Panthers). Jordan Reed is a top 5 TE this year. Offensive line as a pass blocking unit is good this year cause Kirk gets rid of the ball quickly and we have Trent Williams. So what is stopping our offense from being just DECENT?

DJax? He's had DJax for what four quarters and three minutes of football?

Garcon is decent, but nobody has to double team him or anything. The only legit game changer we have on offense is Reed who has been out two games this season too.

Its not that hard to look at this team and see that we don't have many elite players on offense or defense.

riggofan wrote:

EA7649 wrote:I agree and based of the stats I think he is only an average quarterback. Not a quarterback to build a franchise with!

This sort of bugs me, man. Because I agree with you that he's probably an average QB. But on the other hand I think we might need to build around an average QB for a while.

The amount Kirk will make per year let's say 15 million?
I'd rather spend that 15 million on the dline, oline, or a cornerback. They won't be real competitive for a few years. So set the rest up and have another average quarterback play. When the time comes really search for that franchise quarterback.

I am neither for or against Cousins. He is the quarterback for now. Maybe he isn't a "NFL starting quarterback", but he is what we have for now. If you want to make a measure Cousins, measure his progress against Daltons. Dalton was just as bad as Cousins but is now labeled a competent quarterback.

EA7649 wrote:The amount Kirk will make per year let's say 15 million?
I'd rather spend that 15 million on the dline, oline, or a cornerback. They won't be real competitive for a few years. So set the rest up and have another average quarterback play. When the time comes really search for that franchise quarterback.

$15m? You think?

Would surprise me if that was the number, but I sort of agree with your logic. Cousins is a good option because he's been in the system for a year+, but if the price gets too steep I'd rather stick with that type of QB like Chase Daniels, Mark Sanchez, etc; and focus our draft picks on fixing the defense.

We'll be good on cap space next year. I don't think spending a lot on FAs should be a big priority.

riggofan wrote:

EA7649 wrote:The amount Kirk will make per year let's say 15 million?
I'd rather spend that 15 million on the dline, oline, or a cornerback. They won't be real competitive for a few years. So set the rest up and have another average quarterback play. When the time comes really search for that franchise quarterback.

$15m? You think?

Would surprise me if that was the number, but I sort of agree with your logic. Cousins is a good option because he's been in the system for a year+, but if the price gets too steep I'd rather stick with that type of QB like Chase Daniels, Mark Sanchez, etc; and focus our draft picks on fixing the defense.

We'll be good on cap space next year. I don't think spending a lot on FAs should be a big priority.

Not a doubt in my mind. No less than 12 million he will be offered. The past years teams have overpaid for quarterbacks. You can get an older average quarterback for a decent price. If you want to go with a player that's been in the system, use Colt. But who knows it could be a brand new system next year!

riggofan wrote:

EA7649 wrote:The amount Kirk will make per year let's say 15 million?
I'd rather spend that 15 million on the dline, oline, or a cornerback. They won't be real competitive for a few years. So set the rest up and have another average quarterback play. When the time comes really search for that franchise quarterback.

$15m? You think?

Would surprise me if that was the number, but I sort of agree with your logic. Cousins is a good option because he's been in the system for a year+, but if the price gets too steep I'd rather stick with that type of QB like Chase Daniels, Mark Sanchez, etc; and focus our draft picks on fixing the defense.

We'll be good on cap space next year. I don't think spending a lot on FAs should be a big priority.

$15 million would be on the high end for a starting quarterback. Quarterbacks making less than that include Romo, Eli Manning, Brady, Newton, Bradford. Carson Palmer's making less than one-half of that this season. Russell Wilson's making around $7.045 million. RGIII's making $6.7 million. I don't see anyone offering Cousins more than $10 million a year for a couple of seasons. With Scot McCloughan running the show it will probably be even less than that.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

riggofan wrote:

EA7649 wrote:The amount Kirk will make per year let's say 15 million?
I'd rather spend that 15 million on the dline, oline, or a cornerback. They won't be real competitive for a few years. So set the rest up and have another average quarterback play. When the time comes really search for that franchise quarterback.

$15m? You think?

Would surprise me if that was the number, but I sort of agree with your logic. Cousins is a good option because he's been in the system for a year+, but if the price gets too steep I'd rather stick with that type of QB like Chase Daniels, Mark Sanchez, etc; and focus our draft picks on fixing the defense.

We'll be good on cap space next year. I don't think spending a lot on FAs should be a big priority.

$15 million would be on the high end for a starting quarterback. Quarterbacks making less than that include Romo, Eli Manning, Brady, Newton, Bradford. Carson Palmer's making less than one-half of that this season. Russell Wilson's making around $7.045 million. RGIII's making $6.7 million. I don't see anyone offering Cousins more than $10 million a year for a couple of seasons. With Scot McCloughan running the show it will probably be even less than that.

That may be the case. But a desperate team might offer him more than he is worth. Wilson was on his rookie contract last summer he accepted 87.6 mil. Eli signed 4 year 84 mil, tom brady is 9 million average (but he is also old and has made lots of money throughout his career), Newton signed a 118 mil, Palmer is making 50 million in 3 years (and he is a seasoned veteran who made money in his career), Bradford is making aprx 13 mil because of his steep rookie contract.

Its not that the Redskins will offer Kirk the contract thats high, its the other 31 teams...

Kirk Cousins has 8 games to go and at that time his 'value' to this franchise will be assessed - it's up to him - Dan Snyder will pay him what the FO thinks he's worth and good luck to him if it's over $15M

no worries from me - I'd love to see him play great but there's little to go on so far

someone want to tell me that we're paying Cousins over $15M based on what he's done so far

or

based on who else is available to play QB

Kirk needs to pick it up a little over the next 8 games in my very humble opinion

SkinsJock wrote:Kirk Cousins has 8 games to go and at that time his 'value' to this franchise will be assessed - it's up to him - Dan Snyder will pay him what the FO thinks he's worth and good luck to him if it's over $15M

no worries from me - I'd love to see him play great but there's little to go on so far

someone want to tell me that we're paying Cousins over $15M based on what he's done so far

or

based on who else is available to play QB

Kirk needs to pick it up a little over the next 8 games in my very humble opinion

Whats available, potential, little bit of what he has done, history of overpaying qbs. Remember when Joe Flacco was te highest paid qb? And I backed up the history of the qb contracts from the previous comment.

EA7649 wrote:That may be the case. But a desperate team might offer him more than he is worth. Wilson was on his rookie contract last summer he accepted 87.6 mil. Eli signed 4 year 84 mil, tom brady is 9 million average (but he is also old and has made lots of money throughout his career), Newton signed a 118 mil, Palmer is making 50 million in 3 years (and he is a seasoned veteran who made money in his career), Bradford is making aprx 13 mil because of his steep rookie contract.

Its not that the Redskins will offer Kirk the contract thats high, its the other 31 teams...

While it's true teams will always overpay for a quarterback (let's face it, if you don't have one you've got nothing) almost all of those other players have established themselves as being capable starters at the very least. Cousins really hasn't established anything, and contrary to some opinions here he can't possibly establish himself as worth top half quarterback money between now and the end of this season. If a team is willing to pay Cousins $15 million a year they can have him. He hasn't proven himself as anything more than capable of not losing games for the team. Game managers don't make premium salaries unless teams are stupid. See: Smith, Alex.

The important thing here is that no matter what happens with Kirk Cousins we will be able to stop discussing RGIII every thread when he's cut this Spring. I've officially reached a point where I'd rather the team pay Cousins $20 million a season than discuss RGIII, who will never take another snap for this franchise, in yet another thread. NEVER . You can use all caps.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

EA7649 wrote:That may be the case. But a desperate team might offer him more than he is worth. Wilson was on his rookie contract last summer he accepted 87.6 mil. Eli signed 4 year 84 mil, tom brady is 9 million average (but he is also old and has made lots of money throughout his career), Newton signed a 118 mil, Palmer is making 50 million in 3 years (and he is a seasoned veteran who made money in his career), Bradford is making aprx 13 mil because of his steep rookie contract.

Its not that the Redskins will offer Kirk the contract thats high, its the other 31 teams...

While it's true teams will always overpay for a quarterback (let's face it, if you don't have one you've got nothing) almost all of those other players have established themselves as being capable starters at the very least. Cousins really hasn't established anything, and contrary to some opinions here he can't possibly establish himself as worth top half quarterback money between now and the end of this season. If a team is willing to pay Cousins $15 million a year they can have him. He hasn't proven himself as anything more than capable of not losing games for the team. Game managers don't make premium salaries unless teams are stupid. See: Smith, Alex.

The important thing here is that no matter what happens with Kirk Cousins we will be able to stop discussing RGIII every thread when he's cut this Spring. I've officially reached a point where I'd rather the team pay Cousins $20 million a season than discuss RGIII, who will never take another snap for this franchise, in yet another thread. NEVER . You can use all caps.

In case you weren't aware, majority of the times Robert is brought up Cousins supporters compare him to Robert. I wouldn't pay more than 7 mil for Kirk. No doubt he will be offered more than that. What number I don't know. And buddy, if Robert isn't back on the team and Kirk is. There will always be a mention of Robert.

Kirk's improving. I was really down on him because of his nerves and guts, but he seems to be holding it all together recently and that's a big plus. He's actually making progress, correcting mistakes, and improving weak areas of his game.

He's made all the throws in the past. He's hit deep receivers before. I think the passing game will really open up if he gets to work with a healthy DJax for a couple weeks. Watch the run game improve after that.

Cousins is at least as good at playing his position as our O-linemen and corners are at playing theirs, yet he's getting more flak than they are on here. This week's loss wasn't on him. I feel like there are those on the board who think we're a bad team because we don't have a QB that can carry the team on his back to a Superbowl win, and they need to either get used to disappointment or become Packers/Patriots fans. Cousins is good enough to win games with this team. The team just needs to pull it all together.

it's funny how some way or another the Griffin name needs to come up ...

hopefully, this franchise will not overpay any player, anytime, anymore

Kirk is going to have a fair market value and we may offer him a little bit more than that but we certainly do not need to overpay a back-up QB

SkinsJock wrote:it's funny how some way or another the Griffin name needs to come up ...

hopefully, this franchise will not overpay any player, anytime, anymore

Kirk is going to have a fair market value and we may offer him a little bit more than that but we certainly do not need to overpay a back-up QB

I think his play will suffice as we build this team. I do not think we have the luxury of using a high pick on a QB anytime soon. We have too many other glaring deficiencies. Kirk is good enough to carry this team and excel with better players around him.

mastdark81 wrote:
How is he playing on a bad team? You cannot say he doesn't have the WRS...

Not a bad team????? 4 wins last year 3 the year before that is the definition of a bad football team. An OL that can't run block, a weak pass defense and as the injuries have mounted a suspect rush defense. That said they are better in 2015 then in 2013 and 2014 when they were putrid. Much of the improvement is the result of Gruden's decision to play Cousins and his marked improvement this season. Cousins can run a WCO very effectively and has helped his team control the ball and keep his defense fresh which is a big reason they have stayed in games and led tying or winning drives in 3 games.

I certainly will say our receiving corps is weak. We haven't had a deep threat all year with Jackson hurt. Garcon wouldn't start for many teams. He can't track deep balls, can't be counted on to fight for 50/50 balls or get a lot separation. He's best on short or medium routes and has mediocre hands, some tough catches when he's going to get hit but too many drops. And what about Grant and Roberts? Forgetaboutit. Crowder is a positive addition out of the slot so he's a welcome addition. I agree Reed is good when he is in the line up but sadly he's out as much as in unfortunately. So on balance I think it's in the bottom third of the league, the receiver corps of every team we play looks better than the Skins.

If they were going to pay Captain Pick 15m a year. or 10 million a year. They would have done it already. His weak arm ruins our run game. He has a multi-year track record of throwing picks like no other QB in the league. His passer rating is not as good as RG3 even if you take out the 2012 year for the OROY.

They would have to be crazy to pay Cap. Pick that. Insane.

Go to NFL.com and look at his stats. Look at RG3's disastrous 2014 season: RG3 beats Kirk in passer rating, accuracy, average yards. RG3 had 8 40+yd plays. Kirk- 1. Kirk plays on a much better team with a much better OLine.

I know that most of you loved Zorn. Didn't see what a trainwreck Shanny was going to be and thought Gus was the savior from Tulsa. You don't see this just like you didn't see those. Gruden is a freaking idiot and Capt. Pick is just the same as Gus. We are wasting our time with those two.

EA7649 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:it's funny how some way or another the Griffin name needs to come up ...

hopefully, this franchise will not overpay any player, anytime, anymore

Kirk is going to have a fair market value and we may offer him a little bit more than that but we certainly do not need to overpay a back-up QB

So, even SkinsJock agrees the team should not pay RGIII (the backup) $16 million and that the starter (Cousins) should receive fair market value.

And here I was thinking we'd never agree on anything.

OldSchool wrote:Take yesterday for example, does anyone here believe the Skins would have won with Tom Brady playing for them?

Absolutely!

OldSchool wrote:

mastdark81 wrote:
How is he playing on a bad team? You cannot say he doesn't have the WRS...

Not a bad team????? 4 wins last year 3 the year before that is the definition of a bad football team. An OL that can't run block, a weak pass defense and as the injuries have mounted a suspect rush defense. That said they are better in 2015 then in 2013 and 2014 when they were putrid. Much of the improvement is the result of Gruden's decision to play Cousins and his marked improvement this season. Cousins can run a WCO very effectively and has helped his team control the ball and keep his defense fresh which is a big reason they have stayed in games and led tying or winning drives in 3 games.

I certainly will say our receiving corps is weak. We haven't had a deep threat all year with Jackson hurt. Garcon wouldn't start for many teams. He can't track deep balls, can't be counted on to fight for 50/50 balls or get a lot separation. He's best on short or medium routes and has mediocre hands, some tough catches when he's going to get hit but too many drops. And what about Grant and Roberts? Forgetaboutit. Crowder is a positive addition out of the slot so he's a welcome addition. I agree Reed is good when he is in the line up but sadly he's out as much as in unfortunately. So on balance I think it's in the bottom third of the league, the receiver corps of every team we play looks better than the Skins.

Now you're off to warm up a big bowl of Campbells Chunky Soup for Kirk and then tuck him in. (Thanks Mom.)

I'm still willing to let the season play out before I declare Kirk "average", or am willing to let him walk.

If we let him walk, I do not in any, way, shape, or form want Colt McCoy as this teams starter. Even if it's only for a year.

Deadskins wrote:

OldSchool wrote:Take yesterday for example, does anyone here believe the Skins would have won with Tom Brady playing for them?

Absolutely!

+1 - are you kidding me - swap the QBs and have Cousins playing behind that line (without Solder) and we are at 4-4

"on to the Saints"

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:So, even SkinsJock agrees the team should not pay RGIII (the backup) $16 million and that the starter (Cousins) should receive fair market value. And here I was thinking we'd never agree on anything.

I'm not entirely giving up on Griffin playing QB but there's absolutely no way he's getting paid much, here or anywhere - I hope that Cousins can find a way to show that he's better than just a good back-up with turnover issues and finish the season strong so that he can get a good paycheck from Danny - maybe as much as $12M but that's a stretch - the best scenario for the franchise going forward is to have Kirk playing QB here while we continue to build this franchise and at some time find a real starting QB

I'm sorry, but from what we've seen from Jay Gruden, I just don't see him coming back here unless he has a transformation these next 8 games - I understand the hand he's been dealt has not been of his making but he's not handled the job very well at all

StorminMormon86 wrote:I'm still willing to let the season play out before I declare Kirk "average", or am willing to let him walk.

If we let him walk, I do not in any, way, shape, or form want Colt McCoy as this teams starter. Even if it's only for a year.

I don't know man. Its not my ideal scenario either, but if Cousins gets too expensive, Colt is a realistic one year stop gap. Hate to say it. Inexpensive guy who already knows the system. Draft a QB next spring and sit him behind Colt for a year. I'd rather see the team do that than get tied into a ridiculous contract with like Jay Cutler or something.

I'm still not sure about this $15m number people are throwing around. Teams structure these contracts different ways. I would think if the season ended today, Cousins could be offered more along the lines of Nick Foles' Ram contract. His total guaranteed money is $14m, but its spread out over a couple years. $4m cap number in 2015, $9m in 2016, $13m voidable cap number in 2017. If they wanted to keep him in 2017 they would restructure, extend, etc;

I think if you look at a $15m number that way, those are reasonable numbers to pay for a middle of the road QB. Whether or not Cousins is one of those guys is obviously debatable.

Aside from the snarkiness, I basically agree with SkinsJock that Cousins has this next stretch of games to make his case one way or the other. That was sort of the whole point of starting him this season.

mastdark81 wrote:Kirk Cousins -

Here are some key stats to gauge our qb that seems fair in comparison to other qbs. Some say wins is a team thing, total passing yards could be biased depending on how much a team throws, etc. So here are some I pulled from pro football reference that can give us an idea of how Kirk is doing exactly mid season

NFL (quarterbacks with at least 70 passes).
Pass Completion Percentage: 9th
Pass Yards Per Attempt: 37th
Touchdown Passes: 19th (tied)
Interceptions Thrown: 6th (tied) most
Sack Percentage Per Pass Attempt: 2nd least
NFL QB Passer Rating: 28th
ESPNS QBR Rating: 20th

Excellent in sacks allowed one of the best, extremely poor at yards per attempt, and about middle to low of pack of everything else.

Passes completed: 6th after Rivers, Ryan, Brees, Brady, Eli and better than Flacco, Bradford, Stafford, Tannehill, Rogers, etc.

Picks: Fewer than Peyton and Luck. His 9th ranking matches his passes attempted ranking while Peyton and Luck have more picks in fewer attempts.

Total Yards: 16th

Yards Lost Due to Sacks: 3rd best

4th Quarter Comebacks: Tied for 5th

Game Winning Drives: Tied for 2nd

I'm calling him top half right now. Woulda, coulda, shoulda been 70% this past week with several long completions. He's becoming Bernie Kosar.