The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

emoses14 wrote:Words have meaning and usage matters. I don't care what a dictionary's definition may say (e.g. the word sinister literally translates to of or on, the left or having to do with being left handed. Who in the world thinks of that when they hear sinister?), how a word is used matters. If you're in a bar, and say "Hey, look at that redskin!"; is anyone either turning around expecting a person of native american descent or chastising you for slander? Lemme answer that one, hell no. They're looking for a member of our football team, because that is the usage that is ubiquitous. No matter how many senators take 4 seconds out of their day to sign a letter, nor how many actually offended native american's fight against it, the fact of the matter is usage trumps.

This, coincidentally, is why the argument that redskin is like the n word is the biggest crock i've ever heard and is actually insulting to me.

A fine job indeed sir!

Hey guys, 1st post.

I got to say, if the team changes the name I would no longer support the team ( fan since 1987 ) to me if you don't like the 80 year old name then don't support the team! the only way I'd support a name change is if they change it to the Washington football team. No logo,same colors. Hate liberalism....

Edit: lots of great posts here, it's totally opposite from ES (BS) what a cesspool that place is.

Gary Clark wrote:Hey guys, 1st post.

Great! Congrats, and Welcome! Please make sure that you visit the Welcome Wagon... review the rules (they are really just common sense) if you haven't already...

I got to say, if the team changes the name I would no longer support the team ( fan since 1987 ) to me if you don't like the 80 year old name then don't support the team! the only way I'd support a name change is if they change it to the Washington football team. No logo,same colors. Hate liberalism....

Understand and agree with the sentiment... but, it ends there. If extortion wins, I'm still a fan of the team that was the victim of it. Have been all my life...

Edit: lots of great posts here, it's totally opposite from ES (BS) what a cesspool that place is.

We like it... and work hard to keep it an open community with all opinions welcome.

I am most likely in the minority here, but I don't care what our Washington area football team is named. It can be the Redskins or whatever else and I don't really care. It's the team I love as it is my hometown team and will root for them until I die. I cannot tell someone when to and not to be offended about the name of a sports team. I will say that I have seen support for the team name from local tribes here in Virginia and to me that is what matters most. If our hometown tribes are on board then I think that should speak volumes as to us keeping the name Redskins.

I don't expect the name to be the Washington Redskins forever ...

it's a huge shame that it will most likely be changed for all the wrong and mostly asinine reasons ...

I will support the team based in Washington DC


anyone that thinks the name Redskins, as it applies to this franchise, is in the same context as the n word, is just uninformed

This name thing is the Dumbest debate ever. Hail to the Redskins

Cappster wrote:I am most likely in the minority here, but I don't care what our Washington area football team is named. It can be the Redskins or whatever else and I don't really care. .

I'm with you, man. Call them the Washington Football Team for all I care.

SkinsJock wrote:How on earth can anyone think that saying "hello Redskin!" to a Native American is a form of 'greeting' - that's a stupid suggestion

Look, man. I don't care if you think its a stupid suggestion or not. Snyder and Allen have stated repeatedly that the name "Redskins" is an "honor" to Native Americans. I'm willing to buy that argument if they're willing to stand up in front of an audience of Native Americans and say, "HELLO, REDSKINS!"

So what if its not a traditional greeting? What the F does that have to do with anything? If Snyder walked up to a cowboy, I'm sure he could say, "Hello, Cowboy" even though its not a traditional greeting. People don't usually walk up to me and say, "Hello, Patriot". But if they did, I wouldn't be offended by it. Yeah, I'm a patriot. Yeah, I would be honored by that. "What's up, Panther?" Well that's kind of weird, but ok.

By all accounts, every "redskin" in that room should feel honored to be greeted "Hello, Redskin!" He should be able to walk up to any Navajo, give him dap and say, "What up, Redskin?"

"Asked at a pre-Super Bowl news conference whether he would call Native Americans “Redskins” to their faces, NFL commissioner Roger Goodell refused to answer and reiterated the league’s position that the team “has presented the name in a way that…has honored Native Americans.”"

I wonder why Goodell refused to answer the question. Its kind of obvious, isn't it?

riggofan wrote:Snyder and Allen have stated repeatedly that the name "Redskins" is an "honor" to Native Americans. I'm willing to buy that argument if they're willing to stand up in front of an audience of Native Americans and say, "HELLO, REDSKINS!"

No, this doesn't follow at all. The Redskins name comes not from a general identifier of American Indians but of a particular sub-culture / historical concept, the warrior in body paint. It would be weird to address a room full of Indians with that single term. That just doesn't make sense.

Yes, it would also be offensive because that name also came to be used as a slur, but that is of course a separate issue. The team name can still be part of the tradition that venerates, respects, honors, etc., the concept and people even if there is also a tradition that uses it as an insult.

So what if its not a traditional greeting? What the F does that have to do with anything? If Snyder walked up to a cowboy, I'm sure he could say, "Hello, Cowboy" even though its not a traditional greeting. People don't usually walk up to me and say, "Hello, Patriot". But if they did, I wouldn't be offended by it. Yeah, I'm a patriot. Yeah, I would be honored by that. "What's up, Panther?" Well that's kind of weird, but ok.

I'll grant you this: if Snyder and Allen were addressing a room full of people closely associated with the team: players, fans, staff, etc., then they should totally be comfortable with saying "Hello, Redskins!" — even if every member in the room is an American Indian. I would be comfortable saying that.

By all accounts, every "redskin" in that room should feel honored to be greeted "Hello, Redskin!" He should be able to walk up to any Navajo, give him dap and say, "What up, Redskin?"

"Asked at a pre-Super Bowl news conference whether he would call Native Americans “Redskins” to their faces, NFL commissioner Roger Goodell refused to answer and reiterated the league’s position that the team “has presented the name in a way that…has honored Native Americans.”"

I wonder why Goodell refused to answer the question. Its kind of obvious, isn't it?

Yes, the reason is obvious: it's a loaded question. It's slippery of him to do it, but then again it's not a fair question, either, because it's not clear how what he might call someone to their face is relevant for whether a team name is appropriate.

Ask a bad question, get an evasive answer.

riggofan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:How on earth can anyone think that saying "hello Redskin!" to a Native American is a form of 'greeting' - that's a stupid suggestion

Look, man. I don't care if you think its a stupid suggestion or not. Snyder and Allen have stated repeatedly that the name "Redskins" is an "honor" to Native Americans. I'm willing to buy that argument if they're willing to stand up in front of an audience of Native Americans and say, "HELLO, REDSKINS!"

So what if its not a traditional greeting? What the F does that have to do with anything? If Snyder walked up to a cowboy, I'm sure he could say, "Hello, Cowboy" even though its not a traditional greeting. People don't usually walk up to me and say, "Hello, Patriot". But if they did, I wouldn't be offended by it. Yeah, I'm a patriot. Yeah, I would be honored by that. "What's up, Panther?" Well that's kind of weird, but ok.

By all accounts, every "redskin" in that room should feel honored to be greeted "Hello, Redskin!" He should be able to walk up to any Navajo, give him dap and say, "What up, Redskin?"

"Asked at a pre-Super Bowl news conference whether he would call Native Americans “Redskins” to their faces, NFL commissioner Roger Goodell refused to answer and reiterated the league’s position that the team “has presented the name in a way that…has honored Native Americans.”"

I wonder why Goodell refused to answer the question. Its kind of obvious, isn't it?

I actually don't think it is obvious at all. The answer to why I (not speaking for anyone else) would not greet a Native American with "What's up, Redskin?" is the same reason I'd not greet someone by saying "What's up, Dolphin/Spur/Dodger/[insert any other team mascot name]" It doesn't make any sense to use a word out of context like that. The dominant, damn near only, use of the word "Redskin" at this point is a reference to the team in Washington, D.C. I'm not going to offer up the anecdotal evidence that I've never heard Redskin used to refer to a person because it isn't helpful or persuasive. However, if you aggregate a general populous' understanding of what the word identifies and they all point to a football team, well there's your answer.

Honoring a group of people with the name of a Franchise isn't undone by the fact that you'd not necessarily use it to actually address them. I suspect that if Dan Snyder walked up to a cowboy, he'd be just as likely to say "Hey, Cowboy" as to address them as sir, or by their name. Because that usage of the word makes sense, it is both an abstract representation of something (the Cowboys and one who performs the job of a cowboy).

emoses14 wrote:I actually don't think it is obvious at all. The answer to why I (not speaking for anyone else) would not greet a Native American with "What's up, Redskin?" is the same reason I'd not greet someone by saying "What's up, Dolphin/Spur/Dodger/[insert any other team mascot name]"

Come on, man. You're just dancing around and not addressing the issue. I understand that you wouldn't normally in every day conversation say, "Hello, Dophin." That has nothing to do with anything, and you know exactly what the question put to Goodell meant. Would you prove that Redskin is not an offensive term, but walking up to a Native American and using it to their face?

Of course he wouldn't. Because it would be offensive.

Anyway, let the dancing continue. I'll support the team no matter what they are named, but I just have a feeling this is one argument that's not going to hold up forever.

Irn-Bru wrote:Yes, the reason is obvious: it's a loaded question. It's slippery of him to do it, but then again it's not a fair question, either, because it's not clear how what he might call someone to their face is relevant for whether a team name is appropriate.

Yeah I agree that its a loaded question, but I'm not sure why you don't think its relevant exactly?

The team has said that word is used to honor Native Americans. Why wouldn't you be able to call a person the word you're honoring them with? That just seems crazy. Can you name another team name in the NFL that you would be reluctant to call a group of people to their face? Steelers, Cowboys, Raiders, Buccaneers, 49ers, Patriots, Packers, etc; I just can't think of anything comparable.

I know people will get ticked off at me for writing about this, but honestly I'm not trying to be combative. My point is that however good our intentions are as a team, and no matter how phony most of the PC-crowd is, I still don't believe the name is completely defensible.

riggofan wrote:

emoses14 wrote:I actually don't think it is obvious at all. The answer to why I (not speaking for anyone else) would not greet a Native American with "What's up, Redskin?" is the same reason I'd not greet someone by saying "What's up, Dolphin/Spur/Dodger/[insert any other team mascot name]"

Come on, man. You're just dancing around and not addressing the issue. I understand that you wouldn't normally in every day conversation say, "Hello, Dophin." That has nothing to do with anything, and you know exactly what the question put to Goodell meant. Would you prove that Redskin is not an offensive term, but walking up to a Native American and using it to their face?

Of course he wouldn't. Because it would be offensive.

Anyway, let the dancing continue. I'll support the team no matter what they are named, but I just have a feeling this is one argument that's not going to hold up forever.

I think your point is that the situation is settled by the answer to your box-in question of "Would you say Redskin to Native American's face?" The problem, again, is that all words have meaning and usages, and the two don't always line up. This is the perfect example of that. I'm not addressing your issue, true because it already assumes away the argument (that's why Goodell refused to answer the question, it was a set up).

So in fact, your example of not being offended if someone came up and called you a Patriot is no less ridiculous than mine of going up to someone and calling them a Dolphin. I certainly wouldn't walk up to a person and call them anything but their name or "sir/ma'am". But that isn't the point. The point is some words only make sense in context, like, uhm, Redskin. If you're not a self identified fan of the 'Skins, having a football conversation, talking to/addressing an employee of the team, there's no reason to be using the word Redskin. It literally doesn't have any use without that context. Its fine to ignore the actual usage of the word Redskin to make your (royal you, not you in particular, riggofan) point, but just own up to that.

How is the word redskin equivalent to using other racial slurs? What a joke. I'm not the kind of guy that uses those words to refer to a certain group of people so maybe I'm not on the "in", but I have NEVER come close to hearing redskin used to describe a Native American.

If someone came to the podium and said hello whiteskins to a group of white dudes, or hello blackskins to a bunch of black dudes, I would fall off my chair laughing. It's not a slur, it's just not the context to greet people. Whiteskin, brownskin, blackskin, tanskin, redskin, are not ways that are thought of as traditional ways to greet someone on the street. None of them are slurs, but not a way to say hello. It's just odd that's all. Hello cowboy is used pretty frequently to greet someone so it does not sound odd.

And because the Native American tribes refer to themselves as the Red nation, or Red people (I was just out at Crazy Horse last September and listened to a Lakota Indian speak and they are VERY proud of it...mentioned it several times), I see nothing wrong with this name. I think Bruce Allen is correct in offering help to these people and the fact that any government official has anything to do with this discussion is disgusting.

This all stems from the Mara's and the intense beef we have with New York. They saw Shanahan coming to build a contender, they convinced Goodell to cut our legs off with a cap penalty, they tried unsuccessfully to keep us from attaining RG3; and now they are unleashing the bevy of New York based national organizations to paint our team name as racist. The fact is our team name honors Native Americans ITS THE NAME OF THE DA*N team

Gibbs4Life wrote:This all stems from the Mara's and the intense beef we have with New York. They saw Shanahan coming to build a contender, they convinced Goodell to cut our legs off with a cap penalty, they tried unsuccessfully to keep us from attaining RG3; and now they are unleashing the bevy of New York based national organizations to paint our team name as racist. The fact is our team name honors Native Americans ITS THE NAME OF THE DA*N team

And yet, you would never call a group of Native Americans, Redskins. Quite an honor.

The real point is that the term Redskins is not mean't to honor or denigrate anyone - it's just a name for a sports franchise

If anyone wants to take offense at a name that is not intended to offend then they're just obviously looking to be ornery and offensive

Snyder and Allen are not totally correct in saying that the term is mean't to 'honor' - it's just a name of the sports franchise in Washington DC that we all happen to love


Politicians of today have a lot of work to do and they really should stay away from issues like this

I didn't read the pretty amazing article because I personally think the name will get changed eventually... but....

riggofan wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:Yes, the reason is obvious: it's a loaded question. It's slippery of him to do it, but then again it's not a fair question, either, because it's not clear how what he might call someone to their face is relevant for whether a team name is appropriate.

Yeah I agree that its a loaded question, but I'm not sure why you don't think its relevant exactly?

It's not relevant because these two things:
(a) what you should or should not call any particular Native American
(b) what the team is named after

Are two different things. Saying that a name is offensive because of (a) is not the same thing as showing that it's offensive with respect to (b)

The team has said that word is used to honor Native Americans. Why wouldn't you be able to call a person the word you're honoring them with? That just seems crazy.

Let me use an analogy to illustrate my point. Suppose there was a team named the Airmen. And 100 years from now, someone asked why the "Airmen" have a black man on their helmets.

You'd say, "In WWII there was a squadron called the Tuskegee Airmen, and this team was named in honor of their courage, what they stood for, etc. It's a way of tapping into and continuing to venerate the noble tradition, and it honors black Americans."

"But how can you say it honors blacks? I mean, you'd never start a speech delivered at an auditorium with, 'Hello Airmen!' That would just be weird, if not offensive!"

Can you name another team name in the NFL that you would be reluctant to call a group of people to their face? Steelers, Cowboys, Raiders, Buccaneers, 49ers, Patriots, Packers, etc; I just can't think of anything comparable.

As I said above, I would not be reluctant to call a gathering of Redskins fans, players, or staff, etc., Redskins.

riggofan wrote:

Cappster wrote:I am most likely in the minority here, but I don't care what our Washington area football team is named. It can be the Redskins or whatever else and I don't really care. .

I'm with you, man. Call them the Washington Football Team for all I care.

If we ARE forced to change the name, I nominate HOGS!

Irn-Bru wrote:As I said above, I would not be reluctant to call a gathering of Redskins fans, players, or staff, etc., Redskins.

hah. That is not remotely the question, my friend, and you know it.

Anyway, I've gone back and forth on the whole name thing a lot myself. Believe me, I'm equally irritated by the whole PC thing, and I personally find it hard to believe that anybody is REALLY, honestly that offended about our team name. People have a certain axe to grind, and our team name is the target. I don't really have any doubt about that.

This question about whether or not you would be willing to use the word to describe a group of Native Americans is worth thinking about though. I don't see how you can honor a group of people with a word that you would be afraid to use to describe them. Forget about greetings or whatever. Other team owners could say any day, "We are honoring [Cowboys, Steelers, Packers, 49ers] everywhere with our team name." If Dan Snyder ever says, "We are honoring redskins everywhere with our team name" they would probably give him the Donald Sterling treatment.

riggofan wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:As I said above, I would not be reluctant to call a gathering of Redskins fans, players, or staff, etc., Redskins.

hah. That is not remotely the question, my friend, and you know it.

Anyway, I've gone back and forth on the whole name thing a lot myself. Believe me, I'm equally irritated by the whole PC thing, and I personally find it hard to believe that anybody is REALLY, honestly that offended about our team name. People have a certain axe to grind, and our team name is the target. I don't really have any doubt about that.

This question about whether or not you would be willing to use the word to describe a group of Native Americans is worth thinking about though. I don't see how you can honor a group of people with a word that you would be afraid to use to describe them. Forget about greetings or whatever. Other team owners could say any day, "We are honoring [Cowboys, Steelers, Packers, 49ers] everywhere with our team name." If Dan Snyder ever says, "We are honoring redskins everywhere with our team name" they would probably give him the Donald Sterling treatment.

Do you really think the Raiders, and Buccaneers, and, to a point, Vikings want to honor those groups? Not really. Obviously, most mascots are chosen because they represent fierce opponents in battle, or some other enviable strenghts or qualities. That's what they mean when they say the name "honors" a particular group.

The US Senate and House have oceans of more important issues than what professional sports teams name their mascot.


Redskins is a MASCOT. The premise is basically imaginary. There are no real Detroit Lions! There are no REAL Tampa Bay Buccaneers! Certain people in this country and culture are trying so hard to be offended by things that don't matter at all, while, at the same time, they are denigrated in an outright-direct fashion in other aspects of life that really do considerable damage, and all they do is suck-it up-and ask for more (especially in a legislative/political sense). It's pathetic and I am embarrassed for them. Redskins, in the context and use of the term Washington Redskins, is NOT OFFENSIVE UNLESS YOU MAKE YOURSELF BE OFFENDED BY IT!

I commend Snyder and Allen and anyone who is for the continuation of a wonderful choice of a mascot for the Washington team. The name will not change as long as Snyder owns the team. I have never been so glad that Snyder is a young, wealthy, stubborn man in the entire tenure of his ownership until now! If they change their name, I will stop watching them play. I'm a Redskins fan, a Washington Redskins Football fan. It's not offensive, it's not meant to offend anyone except other teams and fanbases who already hate us because of the legacy we have with them ON THE FOOTBALL FIELD! It would be a devastating blow to the game, the league and the fanbase, as well as any and all rivalries. Imagine, if it changed, how often people of every stripe will say "They used to be the Redskins" and then that gets an entire back-story and retelling in itself. "Why did they change it? Redskins is just a mascot? That's dumb!" I'm sure a small percentage of fans will endure if it changes, but a majority (who live outside the DC area) will stop and go with another team or drop the sport entirely.

hanburgerheel wrote:I'm sure a small percentage of fans will endure if it changes, but a majority (who live outside the DC area) will stop and go with another team or drop the sport entirely.

I think you have it backwards.

Deadskins wrote:Do you really think the Raiders, and Buccaneers, and, to a point, Vikings want to honor those groups? Not really. Obviously, most mascots are chosen because they represent fierce opponents in battle, or some other enviable strenghts or qualities. That's what they mean when they say the name "honors" a particular group.

I know what you're saying, but those teams haven't published letters from their team owner and team president claiming their name "honors" Raiders or Buccaneers or whatever. Have they? They're also not groups that exist today, as far as I know. Either way, I'm not sure how any of this addresses that key question. How can you honor a group of people with a name that you wouldn't use to their faces?

Snyder would probably do better to take the Indian head off the helmet and just say Redskins no longer has anything to do with Native Americans at all. Just throw in the towel and declare that Redskins refers to our red(ish) jerseys.

No amount of explaining and publishing letters is ever going to please everyone.