Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 10:50 pm
TC - 
I care about the how and why, I care a lot!
I care about the how and why, I care a lot!
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I just don't understand world politics...
Page 2 of 4
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 11:36 pm
I might take some flack for this, but only absorb this if it applies to you, and let if roll over your back if it doesn't. I've been in 2 branches of the military for a combination of 12 years...long enough to have participated in SEVERAL operatons and 3 wars. During the peak of the war...almost every american is glued to the news watching what is going on, putting yellow ribbons on their trees, wearing patriotic t-shirts, buying up every US flag they can get their hands on. But as the war drags on, 2 dead begats 20 begats 200, yada yada yada...people begin to question things that A: they have no need to know because of military intelligence, and B: and their doubt in our efforts brings down morale. Now don't get me wrong, I understand that the public has a right to know certain things about operations, but being former recon, I can say that I really don't care for CNN broadcasting ALL OVER THE WORLD that the 3 Infantry, 3/4 Cav division just crossed such and such border. TMI!!!!! Morale of the story is war is hell, good people (and bad) die, and sometimes you just have to trust that your government is doing the right thing, for the safety of the troops. Sidebar, I also wish that psuedo-patriotism would carry on over to into real Patriotism. Right after the war, dealerships offer deals to veterans, hotels drop rates, yada yada yada...we appreciate these things, but a simple thanx year-round would be better. To rehash, if your patriotic and none of this applies to you, then just view this as me venting over years of things I've noticed. But, if you find yourself falling into a few of these categories, think for a moment that at this very moment a sailor/soldier/airman/marine/coastie has probably risked his life that day in a foreign land for THEIR freedom...which helps keep us free. I apologize for this being so long, and hope I did not offend. Just some things I needed to get off my chest...saddened by the increasingly decent of importance of our armed forces dying in the media.
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 3:17 am
I have some facts that may or may not change your minds, but I would like to present them if I might...
Fact: there were chemical weapons used and documented during the Iran Iraq war - and they were used by Iraq.
Fact: there were chemical and bio weapons used against the Kurds... I have seen the pics with my own eyes as part of the Army training for chemical warfare. When we were getting ready to train in the use of chemical suits, the Army showed pics from Iraqs Kurdish region, and the pictures were shown to explain what happens to little Joe soldier if you don't get that suit on in a hurry. Mind you - this was 1988, when we weren't against the Iraqis.
Fact: There were documented WMD by the UN, some of which were recorded as destroyed. There are actual records and pictures showing destruction, but there were tons unaccounted for.
Fact: Hussein didn't allow inspectors in or give them full run of the place, not even at the end. He stalled for months and that, folks, is more than enough time to transport or destroy what was there.
Fact: There are also mass graves of tens of thousands of bodies found in Iraq, sites that have been identified by locals as dumping grounds for government executed people.
Fact: Hussein came to power through violence. He continued with violence through his whole regime, killing off any threat to his power, including ravaging the Kurds to the north with the aforementioned WMD, wiping out entire villages. There are photos of hundreds of dead proving it and they were killed by WMD. Trust me - 16 years later and I still remember the twisted bodies and the effects the WMD agents had on them - and it was horrid.
Fact: The UN had to admit that there were rockets that Iraq had that could now reach portions of Europe, souped up far beyond the self defense rockets allowed by the resolutions. These posed a threat not necessarily to the US (although in time he might have improved on that) but to our NATO allies in Turkey and Italy.
Fact: there were prisons all over that country with dark ages type of torture devices.
Fact: there was an entire prison that contained nothing but children
If you add all this up, and the fact that maybe the President got bad intel, which has happened to every President (for the people who don't remember - reference the Bay of Pigs and the total lack of intel that sent a lot of men to their deaths - or Jimmy Carter's fiasco in Iran - or Kennedy's starting to send troops to aid France in Vietnam or Truman being told the Chicoms will NEVER cross the border to help North Korea) that maybe, just maybe, he believed in the WMD and that the man was evil and needed to be pacified.
Keep in mind that there were terrorist strongholds rooted out in the north of Iraq, that there is proof of oil vouchers going to 270 different countries and organizations including Hammas, Hesbollah and others. These vouchers are good for the sale of oil, and millions of them were given out. Take a look here - scan the names well - look under Palestine particularly... but not there alone... http://www.brookesnews.com/040202saddamsbribes.html
That my friends is a link that IS established and uncovered by the Iraqis going through the paperwork left behind at the oil ministry. The corruption has extended to France, Germany, Russia and the UN.. funny to think that those are the people who fought so hard to keep this war from happening. They went to people who funded anti war rallies, including one member of the house of Lords (I think - might have been the commons) in England - the one who was so vocal against Major.
Three other things to think about... this may have been nothing but posturing to show the world what we are capable of when threatened but -
1. Libya is now participating in a nuclear/bio/chemical inspection which up until 2 years ago Khadafy threatened inspectors with death.
2. North Korea came to the negotiating table almost as soon as we entered Baghdad.
3. Pakistan and India quit brandishing their nukes at each other.
Those three facts, my fellow Hogmembers are worth this war. Insofar as world stability goes, this is a much safer place without Saddam weilding his billions to cause dissent and disorder.
The President freed 50 million in Afghanistan and Iraq and has so far captured or killed 75% of the known Al Qaeda network. The prior President just wrote an editorial saying we screwed up in the situation in Africa with the genocide saying that we should have gone in there to stop it. What makes it less important to stop it in the middle east?
When I see pics of the 9/11 disaster and then you see a pic of the fuselage of the same style of plane found in a training facility in Iraq, what more do we need?
I have fought, bled and watched my friends die in combat. It sucks, and my nightmares are haunted by it. I still can't sleep sometimes for it (look at the time of this post - often when I post this late I am waking up from the dreams). I can guarantee you, I wouldn't have changed one second of time that I was in though. Not one second.
Keep the faith folks - keep the faith.
Fact: there were chemical weapons used and documented during the Iran Iraq war - and they were used by Iraq.
Fact: there were chemical and bio weapons used against the Kurds... I have seen the pics with my own eyes as part of the Army training for chemical warfare. When we were getting ready to train in the use of chemical suits, the Army showed pics from Iraqs Kurdish region, and the pictures were shown to explain what happens to little Joe soldier if you don't get that suit on in a hurry. Mind you - this was 1988, when we weren't against the Iraqis.
Fact: There were documented WMD by the UN, some of which were recorded as destroyed. There are actual records and pictures showing destruction, but there were tons unaccounted for.
Fact: Hussein didn't allow inspectors in or give them full run of the place, not even at the end. He stalled for months and that, folks, is more than enough time to transport or destroy what was there.
Fact: There are also mass graves of tens of thousands of bodies found in Iraq, sites that have been identified by locals as dumping grounds for government executed people.
Fact: Hussein came to power through violence. He continued with violence through his whole regime, killing off any threat to his power, including ravaging the Kurds to the north with the aforementioned WMD, wiping out entire villages. There are photos of hundreds of dead proving it and they were killed by WMD. Trust me - 16 years later and I still remember the twisted bodies and the effects the WMD agents had on them - and it was horrid.
Fact: The UN had to admit that there were rockets that Iraq had that could now reach portions of Europe, souped up far beyond the self defense rockets allowed by the resolutions. These posed a threat not necessarily to the US (although in time he might have improved on that) but to our NATO allies in Turkey and Italy.
Fact: there were prisons all over that country with dark ages type of torture devices.
Fact: there was an entire prison that contained nothing but children
If you add all this up, and the fact that maybe the President got bad intel, which has happened to every President (for the people who don't remember - reference the Bay of Pigs and the total lack of intel that sent a lot of men to their deaths - or Jimmy Carter's fiasco in Iran - or Kennedy's starting to send troops to aid France in Vietnam or Truman being told the Chicoms will NEVER cross the border to help North Korea) that maybe, just maybe, he believed in the WMD and that the man was evil and needed to be pacified.
Keep in mind that there were terrorist strongholds rooted out in the north of Iraq, that there is proof of oil vouchers going to 270 different countries and organizations including Hammas, Hesbollah and others. These vouchers are good for the sale of oil, and millions of them were given out. Take a look here - scan the names well - look under Palestine particularly... but not there alone... http://www.brookesnews.com/040202saddamsbribes.html
That my friends is a link that IS established and uncovered by the Iraqis going through the paperwork left behind at the oil ministry. The corruption has extended to France, Germany, Russia and the UN.. funny to think that those are the people who fought so hard to keep this war from happening. They went to people who funded anti war rallies, including one member of the house of Lords (I think - might have been the commons) in England - the one who was so vocal against Major.
Three other things to think about... this may have been nothing but posturing to show the world what we are capable of when threatened but -
1. Libya is now participating in a nuclear/bio/chemical inspection which up until 2 years ago Khadafy threatened inspectors with death.
2. North Korea came to the negotiating table almost as soon as we entered Baghdad.
3. Pakistan and India quit brandishing their nukes at each other.
Those three facts, my fellow Hogmembers are worth this war. Insofar as world stability goes, this is a much safer place without Saddam weilding his billions to cause dissent and disorder.
The President freed 50 million in Afghanistan and Iraq and has so far captured or killed 75% of the known Al Qaeda network. The prior President just wrote an editorial saying we screwed up in the situation in Africa with the genocide saying that we should have gone in there to stop it. What makes it less important to stop it in the middle east?
When I see pics of the 9/11 disaster and then you see a pic of the fuselage of the same style of plane found in a training facility in Iraq, what more do we need?
I have fought, bled and watched my friends die in combat. It sucks, and my nightmares are haunted by it. I still can't sleep sometimes for it (look at the time of this post - often when I post this late I am waking up from the dreams). I can guarantee you, I wouldn't have changed one second of time that I was in though. Not one second.
Keep the faith folks - keep the faith.
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 4:05 am
Other interesting documents:
http://www.fas.org/irp/gulf/cia/960702/72566_01.htm
The next one is by a humanitarian organization and is rather astonishing, but if you want to see it for yourselves - this is where to prove it with your own eyes - note - this is dated 1995 - 3 years after the first resolutions.
Look at the aftermath and go to some of the other links to read more.
http://www.phrusa.org/research/chemical_weapons/photos.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0B16F9385E0C728EDDAD0894DB404482
Bill Clinton's last Patterns of Terrorism report from the State Dept. ... seven paragraphs down - Iraq continued to support terrorism
http://www.state.gov/www/global/terrorism/1999report/mideast.html
Think the world is safe? From the 2000 report by the State Dept on Patterns of Global Terrorism - backgrounds on every terrorist group out there - long list to read unfortunately - most of 'em hate the West and all we stand for
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/2450.htm
Well, that's it for me right now, but if I wake back up later I will find some more for y'all
don't worry - these are all public docs.. nothing classified
http://www.fas.org/irp/gulf/cia/960702/72566_01.htm
The next one is by a humanitarian organization and is rather astonishing, but if you want to see it for yourselves - this is where to prove it with your own eyes - note - this is dated 1995 - 3 years after the first resolutions.
Look at the aftermath and go to some of the other links to read more.
http://www.phrusa.org/research/chemical_weapons/photos.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0B16F9385E0C728EDDAD0894DB404482
Bill Clinton's last Patterns of Terrorism report from the State Dept. ... seven paragraphs down - Iraq continued to support terrorism
http://www.state.gov/www/global/terrorism/1999report/mideast.html
Think the world is safe? From the 2000 report by the State Dept on Patterns of Global Terrorism - backgrounds on every terrorist group out there - long list to read unfortunately - most of 'em hate the West and all we stand for
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/2450.htm
Well, that's it for me right now, but if I wake back up later I will find some more for y'all
don't worry - these are all public docs.. nothing classified
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:32 am
NC43Hog wrote:I also want to point out that I a tired of anyone with a differing view from the current administrations stance as being Non-Patriotic. Dissent is deeply woven into our history and culture, it's how this country started, and rose against tyrrany.
I love this statement, I have always hated the phrase "unamerican". We're all Americans and if someone has an opinion that differs from the norm, then they are an American trying to change what being an American means. Even theories from the Montana Militia or statements from domestic terrorists are trying to do what's best for America, even if we don't agree on the means.
Anyway, I'm sorry I let this post slide and had to read all of this at one time. I would like to say that I support the troops but not that cause. My best friend Chris joined the National Guard after high school thinking that he would be safe at home doing community service while getting paid for college and his life after school... Well, his battalion (which had not been used since the revolutionary war, one of their biggest recruiting strategies) was activated and he was trained to become a military policeman and how to become a prison guard/military escort/patrolman (his previous training was in field artiliery, another big 'selling point' for this battalion, if you're manning a howitzer, you're not up close to the action...) so there he is out in Iraq riding on the back of a Hummer, manning the a heavy machine fixed to the top, guarding prisons and doing all of this for 12 hours at a time. So I obviously support the troops, I hope they all come home safe, but I don't agree with being over there.
Saddam Hussein was harmless to us. That might be tough to hear, but it's true. Hussein would never, ever, ever have used WMD's on anyone wheather he had them or not... How do I know this? He was in a position of absolute power, giving up his country by attacking the US or anyone else for that matter would have been extremely stupid. We would have done exactly what we have done, take his country, his power and his personal freedom.
Douglas McArthur once said "It is a law of nature, common to all mankind, which time shall neither annul nor destroy, that those who have greater strength and power shall bear rule over those who have less." that is one of my all time favorite quotes. Saddam Hussein was like that, and he used his power to keep religious factions down in Iraq. We went in because we have more power than Iraq and we took out their leader and now it's our job to keep down religious factions... You know all those clerics and stuff that keep popping up and raising armies? Yeah, Saddam might have been a son of a bitch but he was damned good at keeping those guys down, and as you have already seen, the are very, very dangerous. General McArtur's quote is so true, because of the arrogance every culture has in thinking that their culture is the best. How crappy would a world where everyone believed in the same religiou and followed the same form of government be? Very... it would be mindnumbingly boring. Instead we're afraid to let anyone who doesn't like us get power! That's a HUGE catch-22! Do they not like us because we keep them down, or do we keep them down because they don't like us?
Well, I could write a lot more... but I have to save SOME for my Religion and Politics paper
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:02 am
Saddam Hussein was harmless to us. That might be tough to hear, but it's true. Hussein would never, ever, ever have used WMD's on anyone wheather he had them or not... How do I know this? He was in a position of absolute power, giving up his country by attacking the US or anyone else for that matter would have been extremely stupid. We would have done exactly what we have done, take his country, his power and his personal freedom.
55... was begining to wonder why you started this topic and left the romm
Anyhow...I totally respect your opinions, however I could't disagree more with the above statement. Saddam had and used WMD on his own people...I know this first hand!! He did attack someone else...Kuwait. This is a job that sould have been finished 12 years ago. The fact that he stood up to us and remained in power made him a victor in the first gulf war in the eyes of many. 74 is right on the public doesn't see and shoudn't see thr results of war...I see it daily, this week in particular has been a rough one. Thanks for supporting the troops while opposing the cause...I can respect that.
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:10 am
Skinsfan55 - I provided proof, written and photographic proof that the man did use them.
He not only used them against Iran, but against a political enemy in his own country - the Kurds.
Anyone who joins the Reserves or National Guard and thinks there isn't a possibility that they will ever be called up (especially when, like here in VA - the Nat'l Guard is tied directly to the 82nd Airborne in support) is being intellectually dishonest. Basically he was, according to you, looking for a free ride at taxpayers expense serving a few weeks out of the year in something he didn't take seriously. That is the interpretation I take from this.
My fellow Hogbrother - if you think that the MILITANT (note I am not generalizing the entire group or religion) Muslims would let us have our own religion if it was THEIR choice - that is not being honest with yourself. Your sport of choice - nope. Too violent. Your cheerleaders? Oh hell no. What you wanted to eat, drink, read, listen to, watch? Oh please. Political parties? Forget it.
Don't believe me? How many free countries are there in the middle east? How many people can truly choose their own destinies? Not many.
I don't know what to say to convince you other than the truth I have seen, read about in multitudes of papers, and visited in my military career. The truth is - the man was a destabilizing factor in the region, a mass murderer, invaded two different countries causing tens of thousands of casualties, used WMD (proven) and supported terrorism.
Did you even look at any of the links I provided, including ones that linked to information provided by the Clinton administration if you are so dead set against Bush and the Republicans?
Some of the armies being raised are already being proven to be supported by outside forces from Syria, Jordan, Iran and Lebanon. The majority of the people of Iraq appreciate us, and the images shown to us of people waving to the troops, including kids, shows us that. The Sunni triangle, the power base for Saddam, is where most of the trouble is coming from, and a lot of what just happened was very planned.
The press in the area was tipped off, the people were agitated (notice how most of the people who participated just happened to KNOW where the action was going to take place) and there was armaments no simple street rebel could have had.
I understand the emotional issues. Every war has had them. I would love to continue to discuss this with you, but unless you are willing to confront data with data, it seems pointless to me to do so. Intellectual emotionalism and dishonesty is never overcome by logic and proof unless the person is willing to hear the facts as they are instead of coloring them with fear and anger.
As far as domestic terrorists - do you mean people like McVeigh who in his "statement" killed all those people? Just curious.
He not only used them against Iran, but against a political enemy in his own country - the Kurds.
Anyone who joins the Reserves or National Guard and thinks there isn't a possibility that they will ever be called up (especially when, like here in VA - the Nat'l Guard is tied directly to the 82nd Airborne in support) is being intellectually dishonest. Basically he was, according to you, looking for a free ride at taxpayers expense serving a few weeks out of the year in something he didn't take seriously. That is the interpretation I take from this.
My fellow Hogbrother - if you think that the MILITANT (note I am not generalizing the entire group or religion) Muslims would let us have our own religion if it was THEIR choice - that is not being honest with yourself. Your sport of choice - nope. Too violent. Your cheerleaders? Oh hell no. What you wanted to eat, drink, read, listen to, watch? Oh please. Political parties? Forget it.
Don't believe me? How many free countries are there in the middle east? How many people can truly choose their own destinies? Not many.
I don't know what to say to convince you other than the truth I have seen, read about in multitudes of papers, and visited in my military career. The truth is - the man was a destabilizing factor in the region, a mass murderer, invaded two different countries causing tens of thousands of casualties, used WMD (proven) and supported terrorism.
Did you even look at any of the links I provided, including ones that linked to information provided by the Clinton administration if you are so dead set against Bush and the Republicans?
Some of the armies being raised are already being proven to be supported by outside forces from Syria, Jordan, Iran and Lebanon. The majority of the people of Iraq appreciate us, and the images shown to us of people waving to the troops, including kids, shows us that. The Sunni triangle, the power base for Saddam, is where most of the trouble is coming from, and a lot of what just happened was very planned.
The press in the area was tipped off, the people were agitated (notice how most of the people who participated just happened to KNOW where the action was going to take place) and there was armaments no simple street rebel could have had.
I understand the emotional issues. Every war has had them. I would love to continue to discuss this with you, but unless you are willing to confront data with data, it seems pointless to me to do so. Intellectual emotionalism and dishonesty is never overcome by logic and proof unless the person is willing to hear the facts as they are instead of coloring them with fear and anger.
As far as domestic terrorists - do you mean people like McVeigh who in his "statement" killed all those people? Just curious.
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:46 am
SFIR, I think I painted the picture wrong. Even though the National Guard sells itself on the very principle that you get a free ride only serving a few weeks a year... that is not why he signed up. His father was a soldier in the Korean War (yes, he's an old dude) and he worked Ordinance, not that this isn't an important job, but I don't believe he ever had to raise a weapon against anyone during his time stationed in... Germany. So his father convinced him what a great plan it would be to join the armed services and serve his country while making extra money for him to buy his first house and start a family with after school...
So he joined up with his father's prodding but he was very proud to wear the uniform, he liked the military way and he enjoyed going to drill weekends and he tried to hone his skill on his rifle whenever possible. Of course no one who joins the reserves anticipates being used, that's why they joined the reserves, or the National Guard because they expect to help their community differently than being embattled in armed conflict. So my friend Chris was taken out of his specialty, Field Artiliery, and put into close up fighting resembling Infantry. For the record, I have never, EVER heard him complain about any of this, everything I stated was from my perspective.
Also, when you said: "if you think that the MILITANT (note I am not generalizing the entire group or religion) Muslims would let us have our own religion if it was THEIR choice - that is not being honest with yourself. Your sport of choice - nope." I totally agree, they wouldn't... nor are we... but we should, I mean we all have different values and beliefs and why are we all trying to deny each other our rights to practice our own religions, beliefs and enact our on policies? Because "It is a law of nature, common to all mankind, which time shall neither annul nor destroy, that those who have greater strength and power shall bear rule over those who have less." I totally agree with this statement, but I just wish it wasn't so.
I can see from your links and facts that Saddam Hussein used weapons in the past, and he had them to keep his power. But he would have never turned them on us, or any of our allies. We hate the think this, but he did an important job for us in Iraq, he kept things stable. He used horrible methods and I'm sure the results were gruesome, but how much better are things without him and dozens of Iraqi clerics in place?
The difference between cultures that have a oral tradition (Islam and others) and cultures that have a written tradition (the West, us) is that oral cultures have a long, long memory. One of the favorite passtimes of Muslim people is to tell stories of battles that happened in the 1300's and such. They never forget, and if you know about the beginings of the Muslim religion you see that Muhammed took an army of three hundred and battled for years against an army of thousands. The people of the time saw the hand of God in these battles and the Muslim people believe to this da ythat they can overcome ANY odds, it's a trademark of these people.
After the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WWI, and WWII we just kissed and made up with all the offending parties... That will NEVER happen with a war against Islamic states, they always remember and will always keep fighting. The ONLY way to win a war on Islamic peoples is to kill every single one... Yup, eliminate one of the big 3 spiritual traditions. I don't think there's anyone who wants to go down that road.
Now, with Timothy McVeigh, yes, he honest to God thought he was doing what was right for America. (I don't believe he would, neither do many, many other people) but he fashioned himself as a defender of the constitution and a hero. Sometimes people just go crazy and don't realize how their actions might be wrong, but your right to voice your opinions ends when you deprive other people of their rights to voice theirs.
I honestly don't think that I am being overly emotional by this, yes... I miss my friend, and the thought of him fighting for 5 days in a row while sleeping an hour at a time in shifts scares the Hell out of me (I got all this information from his sister this morning). I know that in a 5 day long fight the chances of him not having to have killed for this war are remote. Still, I'm trying to stay level headed here.
Why are we in Iraq? Saddam abused his power before and it didn't seem like he was going to use it again, except within his own area. We SHOULD have taken care of Saddam before when he was abusing power and commiting murder, but for whatever reason we just decided to leave. We're trying now to do what's best for stability in that region, but we've opened up a can of worms even bigger that what we could have imagined. Frankly I don't see how making Iraq a militant Islamic state (we've done this already, Marines are being killed by the dozens by Iraqi clerics and their minons.) or backing out of this conflict can help. We've put ourselves between a rock and a hard place, does anyone see a successful conclusion to this?
We "win" in Iraq- We silence clerics and factions of militant Islamic people, set up a government in Iraq and try to build them in our own image. This will make a lot of Muslim's happy I'm sure... We'd forever have to be looking over our shoulders, waiting for the next terrorist strikes which would be inevitable. This war will never really end, Islamic people remember forever, and will never stop fighting us.
We have a "draw" or "lose" in Iraq- Either public opinion goes against the war so much or we lose too many lives we leave Iraq an unstable, ungoverned, re-militarized mess. Bodies litter the streets and whoever has the most guns takes over. We don't have much say in who it is and the resolve of Islamic people is that much stronger in that they can overcome any odds.
I honestly don't see how a positive resolution can come out of this! Does anyone see what good can come out of this conflict?
So he joined up with his father's prodding but he was very proud to wear the uniform, he liked the military way and he enjoyed going to drill weekends and he tried to hone his skill on his rifle whenever possible. Of course no one who joins the reserves anticipates being used, that's why they joined the reserves, or the National Guard because they expect to help their community differently than being embattled in armed conflict. So my friend Chris was taken out of his specialty, Field Artiliery, and put into close up fighting resembling Infantry. For the record, I have never, EVER heard him complain about any of this, everything I stated was from my perspective.
Also, when you said: "if you think that the MILITANT (note I am not generalizing the entire group or religion) Muslims would let us have our own religion if it was THEIR choice - that is not being honest with yourself. Your sport of choice - nope." I totally agree, they wouldn't... nor are we... but we should, I mean we all have different values and beliefs and why are we all trying to deny each other our rights to practice our own religions, beliefs and enact our on policies? Because "It is a law of nature, common to all mankind, which time shall neither annul nor destroy, that those who have greater strength and power shall bear rule over those who have less." I totally agree with this statement, but I just wish it wasn't so.
I can see from your links and facts that Saddam Hussein used weapons in the past, and he had them to keep his power. But he would have never turned them on us, or any of our allies. We hate the think this, but he did an important job for us in Iraq, he kept things stable. He used horrible methods and I'm sure the results were gruesome, but how much better are things without him and dozens of Iraqi clerics in place?
The difference between cultures that have a oral tradition (Islam and others) and cultures that have a written tradition (the West, us) is that oral cultures have a long, long memory. One of the favorite passtimes of Muslim people is to tell stories of battles that happened in the 1300's and such. They never forget, and if you know about the beginings of the Muslim religion you see that Muhammed took an army of three hundred and battled for years against an army of thousands. The people of the time saw the hand of God in these battles and the Muslim people believe to this da ythat they can overcome ANY odds, it's a trademark of these people.
After the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WWI, and WWII we just kissed and made up with all the offending parties... That will NEVER happen with a war against Islamic states, they always remember and will always keep fighting. The ONLY way to win a war on Islamic peoples is to kill every single one... Yup, eliminate one of the big 3 spiritual traditions. I don't think there's anyone who wants to go down that road.
Now, with Timothy McVeigh, yes, he honest to God thought he was doing what was right for America. (I don't believe he would, neither do many, many other people) but he fashioned himself as a defender of the constitution and a hero. Sometimes people just go crazy and don't realize how their actions might be wrong, but your right to voice your opinions ends when you deprive other people of their rights to voice theirs.
I honestly don't think that I am being overly emotional by this, yes... I miss my friend, and the thought of him fighting for 5 days in a row while sleeping an hour at a time in shifts scares the Hell out of me (I got all this information from his sister this morning). I know that in a 5 day long fight the chances of him not having to have killed for this war are remote. Still, I'm trying to stay level headed here.
Why are we in Iraq? Saddam abused his power before and it didn't seem like he was going to use it again, except within his own area. We SHOULD have taken care of Saddam before when he was abusing power and commiting murder, but for whatever reason we just decided to leave. We're trying now to do what's best for stability in that region, but we've opened up a can of worms even bigger that what we could have imagined. Frankly I don't see how making Iraq a militant Islamic state (we've done this already, Marines are being killed by the dozens by Iraqi clerics and their minons.) or backing out of this conflict can help. We've put ourselves between a rock and a hard place, does anyone see a successful conclusion to this?
We "win" in Iraq- We silence clerics and factions of militant Islamic people, set up a government in Iraq and try to build them in our own image. This will make a lot of Muslim's happy I'm sure... We'd forever have to be looking over our shoulders, waiting for the next terrorist strikes which would be inevitable. This war will never really end, Islamic people remember forever, and will never stop fighting us.
We have a "draw" or "lose" in Iraq- Either public opinion goes against the war so much or we lose too many lives we leave Iraq an unstable, ungoverned, re-militarized mess. Bodies litter the streets and whoever has the most guns takes over. We don't have much say in who it is and the resolve of Islamic people is that much stronger in that they can overcome any odds.
I honestly don't see how a positive resolution can come out of this! Does anyone see what good can come out of this conflict?
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 3:21 pm
Skinsfan55 wrote:I honestly don't see how a positive resolution can come out of this! Does anyone see what good can come out of this conflict?
If a single innocent human being is NOT going to be raped or totured or killed because Saddam is gone, I consider that a "good". That alone may not equal the term "worth it"...but I certainly site it as a "good".
Whether right or wrong, (there are things I know and things I don't), the good folks on this board with military experience are the one's I'll listen to the closest. Oh, I won't stop taking in information and forming my own opinions, but life is too short to experience everything, so I strongly believe in listening to folks who've experienced that which I have not. There seems to be a majority among those expressing their opinions on this subject on this forum, who've served us militarily. I won't summarily dismiss it simply because there are idealogues who are able to repeat cleverly worded rhetoric which opposes it. A skilled orator might sound good telling you that water isn't wet, but jump in if you want the truth.
In closing, when we are not at war, the "activist" celebrities of the world enjoy taking in Amnesty International events trumpetting human rights abroad. Seems like a fine idea, but when an administration that they detest commits troops and achieves some liberation for the oppressed, the same idea they recently cheered becomes that which they hiss at. It's so transparent that it's disgusting. It'd be a breath of fresh air to hear Tim Robbins or Alec Baldwin or Susan Sarandon stand up and say, "Truth be told, my real passion and my real mission is to loudly oppose anything outside of my political party of choice. Just tell me what the right is doing and I'll oppose it, I'll figure out later whether I'm wrong...or not."
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 4:32 pm
"If a single innocent human being is NOT going to be raped or totured or killed because Saddam is gone, I consider that a "good". That alone may not equal the term "worth it"...but I certainly site it as a "good"."
That's the thing, people are still being raped, tortured and killed... just by different people. We've had soldiers get captured, there is no doubt they are being tortured and we are killing Iraqi's and they are killing us... We haven't changed the situation for the better yet.
SFIR came the closest to convincing me that there was a legit reason for entering Iraq:
"1. Libya is now participating in a nuclear/bio/chemical inspection which up until 2 years ago Khadafy threatened inspectors with death.
2. North Korea came to the negotiating table almost as soon as we entered Baghdad.
3. Pakistan and India quit brandishing their nukes at each other."
These are all great things, and I'm glad these countries are coming around... but how can we end this problem in Iraq and have a positive conclusion? These are all short term things that SFIR mentioned... I just fail to see how the conflict in Iraq can have a happy ending. Does anyone see how this could possibly end well? This is a huge mess and it's going to take years and years to end it... I just hope when it is ended, things will have changed for the better.
That's the thing, people are still being raped, tortured and killed... just by different people. We've had soldiers get captured, there is no doubt they are being tortured and we are killing Iraqi's and they are killing us... We haven't changed the situation for the better yet.
SFIR came the closest to convincing me that there was a legit reason for entering Iraq:
"1. Libya is now participating in a nuclear/bio/chemical inspection which up until 2 years ago Khadafy threatened inspectors with death.
2. North Korea came to the negotiating table almost as soon as we entered Baghdad.
3. Pakistan and India quit brandishing their nukes at each other."
These are all great things, and I'm glad these countries are coming around... but how can we end this problem in Iraq and have a positive conclusion? These are all short term things that SFIR mentioned... I just fail to see how the conflict in Iraq can have a happy ending. Does anyone see how this could possibly end well? This is a huge mess and it's going to take years and years to end it... I just hope when it is ended, things will have changed for the better.
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 7:27 pm
It's good that you care about the how andd the why, NC43.
All I can deal with at this point is, September 11th happened. This is how we're handling it. Were there other reasons ? Don't know. Doesn't matter to me what subterfuge, if any went on behind the scenes. Heck, we're still going back and forth about JFK's assasination. I don't concern myself with that aspect of it. There are brighter minds for that. I am blindly loyal to our troops, and I throw my lot in with them, if not those who sent them there.
That's all I can handle, really.
Check your PM's.
All I can deal with at this point is, September 11th happened. This is how we're handling it. Were there other reasons ? Don't know. Doesn't matter to me what subterfuge, if any went on behind the scenes. Heck, we're still going back and forth about JFK's assasination. I don't concern myself with that aspect of it. There are brighter minds for that. I am blindly loyal to our troops, and I throw my lot in with them, if not those who sent them there.
That's all I can handle, really.
Check your PM's.
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:17 pm
I don't have a lot to say. I live in Fayetteville, NC, which is Ft. Bragg. I know a lot of soldiers. %99 of the soldiers I've talked to agree with Bush and feel the war in Iraq is justified. If the ones who are going over there to fight feel justified about what we're doing, civilians and liberals should to and quit whining. The middle east in my opinion is a land full of demented psycopaths. "If I strap a bomb on myself and kill the infidels on the bus I'll go to paradise and have 70 virgins." What a bunch of lunatics. I personally feel we're being to soft in Iraq.
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:56 am
"The middle east in my opinion is a land full of demented psycopaths. "If I strap a bomb on myself and kill the infidels on the bus I'll go to paradise and have 70 virgins." What a bunch of lunatics. I personally feel we're being to soft in Iraq."
^See, to me this is a lunatic statement^
Try to frame it like this... "Well, bombs and secret police have killed my cousins, my brothers, my sisters, my parents, my wife, my children and destroyed my home... I have nothing to live for, I am going to kill myself, but I am going to take a few of the people who did this with me"
For the record, were I going to go to Iraq I would try my damndest to believe in the cause... because if you don't there's not much hope for you in a battle, you'd just be killing for the sake of it. You HAVE to believe in the cause for your own survival and sanity in a time of war, so I'd be trying my hardest to be one of those 99%.
^See, to me this is a lunatic statement^
Try to frame it like this... "Well, bombs and secret police have killed my cousins, my brothers, my sisters, my parents, my wife, my children and destroyed my home... I have nothing to live for, I am going to kill myself, but I am going to take a few of the people who did this with me"
For the record, were I going to go to Iraq I would try my damndest to believe in the cause... because if you don't there's not much hope for you in a battle, you'd just be killing for the sake of it. You HAVE to believe in the cause for your own survival and sanity in a time of war, so I'd be trying my hardest to be one of those 99%.
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 4:04 pm
Support the troops,support our president and Hail to the Redskins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 5:03 pm
"We needed to be there, we dont need to be there." 
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:32 pm
Lunatic statement huh? Have you ever watched the news? Have you ever seen the news specials on the 9-11 hijackers? They all blew themselves up because they thought they were doing God a favor and that they will be rewarded. Their reward being an eternity in paradise surrounded by virgins. They also wanted to drive a wedge between Israel and the United States. I didn't make that up. Those are the facts. Look, I don't know what your situation is, but it seems to me your in college listening to your leftwing, fruity, estrogen filled professors. Anyone who can justify the actions of suicide bombers in Israel and other places, actions that consist of blowing themselves up to kill innocent women and children for the sake of their beliefs is clearly the one with mental problems.Skinsfan55 wrote:"The middle east in my opinion is a land full of demented psycopaths. "If I strap a bomb on myself and kill the infidels on the bus I'll go to paradise and have 70 virgins." What a bunch of lunatics. I personally feel we're being to soft in Iraq."
^See, to me this is a lunatic statement^
Try to frame it like this... "Well, bombs and secret police have killed my cousins, my brothers, my sisters, my parents, my wife, my children and destroyed my home... I have nothing to live for, I am going to kill myself, but I am going to take a few of the people who did this with me"
For the record, were I going to go to Iraq I would try my damndest to believe in the cause... because if you don't there's not much hope for you in a battle, you'd just be killing for the sake of it. You HAVE to believe in the cause for your own survival and sanity in a time of war, so I'd be trying my hardest to be one of those 99%.
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:20 pm
Brandon777 wrote:Lunatic statement huh? Have you ever watched the news? Have you ever seen the news specials on the 9-11 hijackers? They all blew themselves up because they thought they were doing God a favor and that they will be rewarded. Their reward being an eternity in paradise surrounded by virgins. They also wanted to drive a wedge between Israel and the United States. I didn't make that up. Those are the facts. Look, I don't know what your situation is, but it seems to me your in college listening to your leftwing, fruity, estrogen filled professors. Anyone who can justify the actions of suicide bombers in Israel and other places, actions that consist of blowing themselves up to kill innocent women and children for the sake of their beliefs is clearly the one with mental problems.
Lol, yeah... the news, now there's a good place to get conclusions and ideas pumped into your head in between fuzzy puppy stories and happy banter. Yes, that is something some Islamic people believe, that if they live a life of virtue that they are rewarded in Heaven by 72 virgins. What makes that any more or less silly that what Christians and Jews believe? The fact that you mock that shows that you're bigoted and close minded.
You are obviously not very well informed on this subject. (why you decided to jump into an argument that is clearly way over your head is beyond me). Islamic people have pretty much the exact different fundamental beliefs on how to live your life than we do. Same God, different way to make Him happy (and if you're not making Him happy, you're making him mad) So here we are working hard all our lives to keep ourselves too busy to commit sin (yes, this is what capitalism is, it was born of Calvinism) while the Islamic people believe that living a life of excess is sinful! Do you see the problem?
The fact that you would assume all the professors I have are fruity, leftwing and estrogen filled is downright ignorant. I won't even dignify that with a response.
I simply corrected your erroneous thinking when you said:
"The middle east in my opinion is a land full of demented psycopaths. "If I strap a bomb on myself and kill the infidels on the bus I'll go to paradise and have 70 virgins."
by replying that those people aren't throwing their lives away just because taking a few 'infidels' with them gets them laid in heaven. That's stupid. I am not defending their actions, obviously suicide bombings are a terrible, terrible thing, but understanding why people do what they do is of paramount importance. These people have lost everything, their place of work has been leveled, their cousins, their brothers, their sisters, their mother, their father, their wife, their children, their home... everything has been destroyed... Why bother to start over, it would all just be destroyed again. These people have had all hope of a happy and normal life taken away from them. Suicide is a forgone conclusion; why not take a few of the people who did this with you?
I suggest you attend a lecture given by a leftwing, fruity, estrogen filled professor, you might learn something.
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:45 am
em is what I say...they've done this to themselves. Call me closed minded if you wish, but I believe the entire region is whacked.
Forgive me if I don't have time to debate this subject ad nausea, but know this, I will always support our troops, our administation and any cause it sees fit to pursue.
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:03 pm
"I will always support our troops, our administation and any cause it sees fit to pursue."
If you had started out with this sentance I would have been able to save myself reading the rest of it.
They did this to themselves? They decided to be born in an area that has been of worldwide importance since civilization began? If it's not trade routes it's oil and people have been trying to invade the middle east for centuries.
To say everyone in the region is "whacked" isn't JUST close-minded, it's ignorant. I daresay these people handle constant bombing, secret police assasinations and the bulldozing of their homes to weed out terrorists far better than you or I would.
If you don't have time to debate this, at least make a little time to learn about it.
If you had started out with this sentance I would have been able to save myself reading the rest of it.
They did this to themselves? They decided to be born in an area that has been of worldwide importance since civilization began? If it's not trade routes it's oil and people have been trying to invade the middle east for centuries.
To say everyone in the region is "whacked" isn't JUST close-minded, it's ignorant. I daresay these people handle constant bombing, secret police assasinations and the bulldozing of their homes to weed out terrorists far better than you or I would.
If you don't have time to debate this, at least make a little time to learn about it.
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:24 pm
I did attend lectures in college by these gay professors. I hate wasting my time typing in response to your queer comments. I always considered myself an independent, but I support Bush. Conservatives in this day of age seem to look at issues more rational than liberals getting on their soap box. The one thing that I hate about liberals such as yourself is that you always have to mouth off about your politics in every known outlet you can and be so dramatic about it. For instance, 99% of the people come here to talk about football and other light hearted subjects in the lounge. Liberals like yourself, come here trying to push an agenda. The news for the most part is run by left wing liberals, people such as yourself. So I wouldn't go on talking smack about a media outlet that is bias in your favor. I guess my assumption about you was correct about you being a college kid, considering you came to the defense of your FRUITY professors. But talking to people like yourself is a waste of time. Liberals claim to be so OPEN MINDED, yet they're so stuck in their own fantasy. If your so against consevative christians and seem to think that muslims in the middle east are not demented, just a little frustrated at Big Brother, then why don't you take yourself to Iraq and use yourself as a human shield and prevent us aggressors from blowing up your friendsSkinsfan55 wrote:Brandon777 wrote:Lunatic statement huh? Have you ever watched the news? Have you ever seen the news specials on the 9-11 hijackers? They all blew themselves up because they thought they were doing God a favor and that they will be rewarded. Their reward being an eternity in paradise surrounded by virgins. They also wanted to drive a wedge between Israel and the United States. I didn't make that up. Those are the facts. Look, I don't know what your situation is, but it seems to me your in college listening to your leftwing, fruity, estrogen filled professors. Anyone who can justify the actions of suicide bombers in Israel and other places, actions that consist of blowing themselves up to kill innocent women and children for the sake of their beliefs is clearly the one with mental problems.
Lol, yeah... the news, now there's a good place to get conclusions and ideas pumped into your head in between fuzzy puppy stories and happy banter. Yes, that is something some Islamic people believe, that if they live a life of virtue that they are rewarded in Heaven by 72 virgins. What makes that any more or less silly that what Christians and Jews believe? The fact that you mock that shows that you're bigoted and close minded.
You are obviously not very well informed on this subject. (why you decided to jump into an argument that is clearly way over your head is beyond me). Islamic people have pretty much the exact different fundamental beliefs on how to live your life than we do. Same God, different way to make Him happy (and if you're not making Him happy, you're making him mad) So here we are working hard all our lives to keep ourselves too busy to commit sin (yes, this is what capitalism is, it was born of Calvinism) while the Islamic people believe that living a life of excess is sinful! Do you see the problem?
The fact that you would assume all the professors I have are fruity, leftwing and estrogen filled is downright ignorant. I won't even dignify that with a response.
I simply corrected your erroneous thinking when you said:
"The middle east in my opinion is a land full of demented psycopaths. "If I strap a bomb on myself and kill the infidels on the bus I'll go to paradise and have 70 virgins."
by replying that those people aren't throwing their lives away just because taking a few 'infidels' with them gets them laid in heaven. That's stupid. I am not defending their actions, obviously suicide bombings are a terrible, terrible thing, but understanding why people do what they do is of paramount importance. These people have lost everything, their place of work has been leveled, their cousins, their brothers, their sisters, their mother, their father, their wife, their children, their home... everything has been destroyed... Why bother to start over, it would all just be destroyed again. These people have had all hope of a happy and normal life taken away from them. Suicide is a forgone conclusion; why not take a few of the people who did this with you?
I suggest you attend a lecture given by a leftwing, fruity, estrogen filled professor, you might learn something.
.Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:27 pm
I've been staying out of this thread because I have mixed feelings about the topic.
First and foremost, I thank God for those troops/soldiers fighting for our country. They deserve our respect and our praise and I will always believe that.
Now.....
I was concerned because after 9/11, the government's focus was on terrorists. George W. said he was going to basically stop at nothing . . . to kick some terroristic buttocks.
Then, it seems like all of the sudden the Government took its focus off the terrorists and placed it on Iraq. Don't get me wrong, Saddam and his sons were tyrants and needed to go....but...did we just pick an easier (more identifiable) target than many (nameless/faceless) terrorists? I dunno.
Many smaller countries perceive the U.S. as a big bully who will hold sanctions against you or use military might against you if you do not hold the same democratic beliefs. That is not surprising because the U.S. does certainly get its hands dirty in many many other countries.
However,
As long as we are fighting to keep freedom alive...and to save people from tyranny, I will support the U.S. getting its hands dirty in other areas.
I just hope we do it for the right reasons....and not for some "made up" reasons the pencil pushers in D.C. want us to believe.
First and foremost, I thank God for those troops/soldiers fighting for our country. They deserve our respect and our praise and I will always believe that.
Now.....
I was concerned because after 9/11, the government's focus was on terrorists. George W. said he was going to basically stop at nothing . . . to kick some terroristic buttocks.
Then, it seems like all of the sudden the Government took its focus off the terrorists and placed it on Iraq. Don't get me wrong, Saddam and his sons were tyrants and needed to go....but...did we just pick an easier (more identifiable) target than many (nameless/faceless) terrorists? I dunno.
Many smaller countries perceive the U.S. as a big bully who will hold sanctions against you or use military might against you if you do not hold the same democratic beliefs. That is not surprising because the U.S. does certainly get its hands dirty in many many other countries.
However,
As long as we are fighting to keep freedom alive...and to save people from tyranny, I will support the U.S. getting its hands dirty in other areas.
I just hope we do it for the right reasons....and not for some "made up" reasons the pencil pushers in D.C. want us to believe.
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:44 pm
First of all, this is the Lounge, not the Smack Forum. Namecalling and degrading of homosexuals is really uncalled for.
Secondly, "pushing an agenda" is what we ALL do. When I say I'd love to trade Samuels and our 5th rounder to the Raiders for the #2, I am trying to push my "agenda". I came here to discuss this subject civily. Posters like SFIR can do this despite being on the other side of the issue. You cannot, this is a most annoying character flaw.
To go and say I am a left wing liberal and to assume that I am not a Christian is wrong.
You fail to look at this conflict from both sides, and that's where you and I differ. I am trying to stir up intelligent conversation about how this could end well, and what positives might come out of it (SFIR provided several examples of VERY positive things that have happened so far) but you have NOTHING to offer to the conversation other than petty insults, homophobic tendancies, and general ignorance.
PS- There are hardcore liberals and hardcore conservatives who will both agree the media is biased towards them. The argument that the "media" as a singular entity is biased towards anyone is laughable. How could hundreds of thousands of newspapers, radio and television news agencies all be organized towards one direction? Answer, they can't. Give it a rest.
Secondly, "pushing an agenda" is what we ALL do. When I say I'd love to trade Samuels and our 5th rounder to the Raiders for the #2, I am trying to push my "agenda". I came here to discuss this subject civily. Posters like SFIR can do this despite being on the other side of the issue. You cannot, this is a most annoying character flaw.
To go and say I am a left wing liberal and to assume that I am not a Christian is wrong.
You fail to look at this conflict from both sides, and that's where you and I differ. I am trying to stir up intelligent conversation about how this could end well, and what positives might come out of it (SFIR provided several examples of VERY positive things that have happened so far) but you have NOTHING to offer to the conversation other than petty insults, homophobic tendancies, and general ignorance.
PS- There are hardcore liberals and hardcore conservatives who will both agree the media is biased towards them. The argument that the "media" as a singular entity is biased towards anyone is laughable. How could hundreds of thousands of newspapers, radio and television news agencies all be organized towards one direction? Answer, they can't. Give it a rest.
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:59 pm
Man. Because I have an opposite view than you do, I have not contributed to this conversation. As far as the insults go, if I'm not mistaken, you pretty much called my opinions "ignorant, close minded, stupid and laughable" etc. Whatever. I judge people based on their character. Some of the professors I had in college that expressed your views were soft, overly emotional and sensitive men. I'm not saying thats WRONG, but those are tangible facts I witnessed. That is why I used the term FRUITY when describing them. If your someone who is extremely emotional and sensitive, thats O.K. I just disagree with you, thats all. Nobody loves war. But sometimes there is no choice.Skinsfan55 wrote:First of all, this is the Lounge, not the Smack Forum. Namecalling and degrading of homosexuals is really uncalled for.
Secondly, "pushing an agenda" is what we ALL do. When I say I'd love to trade Samuels and our 5th rounder to the Raiders for the #2, I am trying to push my "agenda". I came here to discuss this subject civily. Posters like SFIR can do this despite being on the other side of the issue. You cannot, this is a most annoying character flaw.
To go and say I am a left wing liberal and to assume that I am not a Christian is wrong.
You fail to look at this conflict from both sides, and that's where you and I differ. I am trying to stir up intelligent conversation about how this could end well, and what positives might come out of it (SFIR provided several examples of VERY positive things that have happened so far) but you have NOTHING to offer to the conversation other than petty insults, homophobic tendancies, and general ignorance.
PS- There are hardcore liberals and hardcore conservatives who will both agree the media is biased towards them. The argument that the "media" as a singular entity is biased towards anyone is laughable. How could hundreds of thousands of newspapers, radio and television news agencies all be organized towards one direction? Answer, they can't. Give it a rest.
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:04 pm
Ignorance is the same as being uninformed, that is not an insult, it is an observation. Some people have the very same opinions but they can back them up. Saying everyone in the middle east is crazy... that's an ignorant statement.
Sometimes there is no choice other than war, and you need to weigh the pros and cons of taking such drastic action... I just fail to see where the pros are... to me we're opening up a pandora's box in the middle east, what possible good can come of this? How many years will it take? Are we prepared to go into a war of Biblical proportions taking hundreds of years?
Sometimes there is no choice other than war, and you need to weigh the pros and cons of taking such drastic action... I just fail to see where the pros are... to me we're opening up a pandora's box in the middle east, what possible good can come of this? How many years will it take? Are we prepared to go into a war of Biblical proportions taking hundreds of years?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:06 pm
Justice Hog wrote:I've been staying out of this thread because I have mixed feelings about the topic.
First and foremost, I thank God for those troops/soldiers fighting for our country. They deserve our respect and our praise and I will always believe that.
Now.....
I was concerned because after 9/11, the government's focus was on terrorists. George W. said he was going to basically stop at nothing . . . to kick some terroristic buttocks.
Then, it seems like all of the sudden the Government took its focus off the terrorists and placed it on Iraq. Don't get me wrong, Saddam and his sons were tyrants and needed to go....but...did we just pick an easier (more identifiable) target than many (nameless/faceless) terrorists? I dunno.
Many smaller countries perceive the U.S. as a big bully who will hold sanctions against you or use military might against you if you do not hold the same democratic beliefs. That is not surprising because the U.S. does certainly get its hands dirty in many many other countries.
However,
As long as we are fighting to keep freedom alive...and to save people from tyranny, I will support the U.S. getting its hands dirty in other areas.
I just hope we do it for the right reasons....and not for some "made up" reasons the pencil pushers in D.C. want us to believe.
I agree with a lot of what you said, keeping freedom alive is important (this doesn't always have to be done with troops however) but there is more than one for of government than our brand of representavie democracy. This is not a giant game of risk, people also have the right to decide what type of government jives with their specific set of beliefs.