The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I'm sorry but that BS is just so wrong on a number of points ..

it's actually not 'debatable' - that is pure fantasy and almost provocative

DaSkinz Baby wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:

GoodOldDays wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.

What evidence do we have to think one of the country's most well-known (and consequently wealthiest) surgeons would disregard the Hippocratic oath in order to make a few grand?

Where is the evidence he did anything wrong?

I'm not suggesting that the Doctor sat on the sidelines hoping to see RG3's knee get torn up, so he could make money. That would be preposterous. By the same token, spare me this ridiculous airy fairy pie in the sky "Hippocratic Oath" nonsense, which we all should know by now takes up little space in the industry known as modern medicine today.

The fact is, there is an obvious conflict of interest involved when you have the surgeon who will ultimately perform whatever surgery might be required, also serving as the authority deciding if the player's best interests would be better served by not playing. On whatever level, consciously or subconsciously, there is an unceremonious disconnect, where the Doctor is not going to be viewing the situation from the same metaphorical eyes of say ... Robert's mother or close loved one.

But don't try to sell me on this notion that the doctor is above self interests, until you show me evidence that the Good Doctor performs these procedures for free. Then, I might be willing to concede the point.

+1

So the suggestion or implication in Ray's post is that there is a conflict of interest--subconcioiusly or otherwise, that gives Dr. Andrews the incentive to perhaps allow a player a longer leash, expose him to a risk because ultimately he will get to do the surgery and make more money?

Ridiculous.

My fiance is a doctor. And, trust me, their reputations are more valuable than their ability. People don't go to the doctor who screwed up someone--especially not someone as high profile as RGIII. There are probably several Orthapedic Surgeons who can perform surgery with the same skill as Andrews. But, Andrews has the reputation and respect because of his record. I don't buy that. Especially not for a 72 year old surgeon who isn't building a practice, but whose probably making more money just for his presence on the sideline than he is for a surgery.

Hell, he was on the sideline of the BCS Championship game the day after the Skins game.

In my view there were two problems:

1. The coaches called too many running plays, not enough pass plays, and used a player with elite passing skills as a running qb. 25 qb's, including scrubs like Ponder and Sanchez, attempted more passes than RGIII. Of the qbs that attempted less passes than RGIII, none played in more than 13 games. On the other hand, only Newton attempted more rushes (127 to Griffin's 120) and no other qb had more than 100. By comparison, Michael Vick has only eclipsed 120 rush attempts once in his career.

RGIII was an elite passer in college and can be in the NFL. We need to use a more traditional passing offense and limit the rushing next season, or else we're going to see the same thing as far as injury.

2. RGIII needs to learn that it's ok to throw the ball away and not always try to extend a play. His injuries came on scrambles and he has a tendency to dance around behind the line of scrimmage and try to make something happen. I appreciate that effort and competitiveness, but he took some big/awkward hits behind the line of scrimmage. Elite qbs like Brees and Brady rarely take big hits, but Griffin takes multiple big hits every game. Against the Bengals 18 plays ended with Griffin getting tackled while holding the ball. That's a month or two worth of hits for Brees or Brady. It's just not sustainable.

thanks Canes - you really need to move it along a bit

the offense changed a little from game 1 to game 16 ...

and it will continue to change .... don't you think?


RG3 has said that it was very hard for him at first and the Bengals game was week 3 for crying out loud

RG3 and Kyle now have a much better idea of how to run the read-option and the pistol WITHOUT taking undue risks of his getting beat up

I look for a much better offense next year as well and a lot less wear and tear on RG3

RG3 will be faster and for sure he will be a lot more 'ready' for what is happening

no worries

The Hogster wrote:SMH. This is wrong on so many levels. If you watched the Ravens game, you would know that the application of 340 lbs of torque (Haloti Ngata) against a leg whipping in the opposite direction (RGIII) is what injured Robert's LCL initially. A sprain is a tearing of ligament fibres. This was not a cumulative impact injury. That's not how the ligaments of a 22 year old work. They don't wear down just because he's running. It takes a great deal of force to tear a ligament.

That's not what I was suggesting, and I've got to wonder if you just want to distort my points or you don't grasp them.

I will restate the point more clearly so as to clear up your confusion. We have a player who plays at top speed with an overriding element of reckless abandon that comes with the combination of talent and competitiveness he possesses. This shows up in Robert's inclination to get every stinking yard, rather than protect himself from hits. We've already seen this COUNTLESS TIMES throughout the year. So this is an issue for which it is the responsibility of the Coaching Staff to properly manage and impress upon Robert a greater need for discretion and caution. But that's not possible when the offensive philosophy simultaneously puts him in these risky positions by design .... which has resulted in him being 20th in the NFL in rushing. Do you get that? This encourages his natural inclination for risk taking, rather than discouraging it. So it is impossible to use him as a running QB by design, while also instilling in him the importance of protecting his body ... why can you not get this?

There has been a lot of lip service regarding the need for caution, but it's clearly been nothing more than that. The concussion was supposed to serve as the "wake up call" for him to be more cautious, but we've seen how that turned out, haven't we? There was no air of caution being observed, even after the injury to his knee. He ran 6 times in the Dallas Game, and 5 times in the Seattle Game .... and astoundingly, that includes called bootleg in the 4th quarter, when the rest of the world watching thought he shouldn't even be in the game any longer!! This is the major disconnect I'm talking about, between the words and deeds of this lame brained coaching staff, having this kid run by design when it was clear that he was injured and hobbling. Does this show any semblance of the tiniest bit of caution being emphasized to Robert?

So, with that said, I will say again, the nature of how the Redskins have used RG3 all year ingrains this style of play that increases the chances for what happened to his body this year. That among the other QBs around the league, Robert is the one collapsing on the ground is not simply a case of bad luck and "stuff happens" ... it was very predictable, and many people having been warning about this potential outcome starting much earlier in the season.

You'd have to have a head made out of cinderblock to be so dense as to not understand the increased risk of injury to QBs that run as often as Robert has this year. And you have to be supremely gullible to buy this crap from Shanahan suggesting that Robert was actually safer running than sitting in the pocket. Shanahan wants you to live in an alternate universe, and you apparently want to live there.

The Hogster wrote:RGIII's concussion was also not a cumulative impact injury. It occurred on a specific impact. Do some research on ligament tears and concussions. You don't wear your ligaments out anymore than you wear your bones out--especially at age 22. He doesn't have Osteoperosis. He has a TEAR. Tears come from an impact.

It's all cumulative .. physically and psychologically. And I don't care if you "believe" this total nonsense that playing on a damaged knee does not risk further damage. That's when someone is asking you to ignore common sense, and believe their fish story. Don't do it. Use your head. The reality is, all of the punishment absorbed by the body deteriorates it's ability to cope with further punishment. Muscles in the leg help support knee ligaments, and fatigue over the course of a punishing season of violence and assault DOES ACCUMULATE and DOES increase the risk of injury. NFL players do not finish the season stronger than they started in September .. that's just an undeniable fact. You can argue that, but you'd be insanely silly to try to.

The Hogster wrote:Hindsight is 20/20. I still don't see how your soliloquy on this site matters much to an event that occurred a week ago. Venting I guess?

On the botched snap

Let me know when those MRI glasses you wear are released to the general public. I want some.

You have no clue when his ACL tore. Doctors have said it was the low snap play as evidenced by a process called reflexion. When an ACL tears, the Quad muscles release, making the leg go dead. That happened on the low snap play, which is why he fell in a heap and couldn't even move to try and reach for the ball. But, I'll wait for my MRI glasses to come in.

B A L O N E Y .... pure nonsense. That very set of symptoms occurred in the 1st Quarter, just prior to the 2nd TD pass, and the description of the most frequent causes of ACL injuries describes exactly the sequence of events that transpired on that play.

Setting aside your rhetoric and hyperbole, there is no need for Xray vision to see a pink elephant sitting in the middle of the room. Even Shanahan admits that he doesn't think the injury happened on the botched snap ... he claims that the injury happened the play before, on the sack. Of course, I also predicted that is exactly what Mikey would be combing through the film looking for. It's a much better narrative for Mike and the Doctor that Robert was injured on the next to last play, rather than playing 3 Quarters on torn ligaments.

But since the overwhelming percentage of viewers, both analysts and fans alike, clearly saw him crash to the ground in pain in the first Quarter, and the significant deterioration in his performance for the remainder of the game thereafter, common sense is all you need ... not "MRI Glasses", unless you are the only one that didn't get your pair.

Of course, pay no attention to the recently released audio of the conversation between RG3 and Trent Williams just after that 1st Q crash to the ground, in which RG3 told him that it scared the **&^ out of him, as that would not bode well in support of your favored narrative, claiming the injury occurred on the last play of Robert's day.

The Hogster wrote:You are far too dramatic. Some of Robert's team mates didn't even know how badly injured he was. He was clearly limping around. But, what Shanahan did was a judgment call. It was the wrong call in hindsight, but unfortunately nobody has the benefit of it until an error is made.

Stop it ... just stop it .... only the supremely dense require "hindsight", and for some, even that isn't enough. As for me, I was screaming at the TV in the 2nd Quarter of that game, wondering what the heck these idiots were thinking. And I was anticipating that even this three-stooges-crew of Mike, Kyle, and Doctor Do Nothing would get enough of a clue during the intermission, that once half time was over, we'd see Cousins come out to finish the game, and I was floored to see RG3 continuing on, series after miserable series, floundering and throwing uncharacteristically off target again and again. And even if the blind spot is so big that you were unable to see the pronounced gimping, you should have certainly noticed the results ... three and out, three and out, three and out .... until the Seahawks managed to whittle their way back in the game, and finally win it in the end. That Robert completed only 4 passes for about 20 yards in almost three quarters of play shouldn't have escaped the Coach's radar, or yours, because it was certainly easy for everyone else to see ... including the freaking Seahawks who must have considered Shanahan's decision to allow RG3 to flounder defenseless, pennies from heaven.

The Hogster wrote:And, No he shouldn't be fired. These knee jerk reactions (no pun intended) are typical of fans, but spell disaster for a football team. We've just built a team that can contend for a Superbowl for years and you want the Head Coach fired?? Please

Please, indeed. We acquire a franchise Quarterback after decades of not having one, and in 17 games, they managed to kill the kid, and set the organization back another year while Robert rehabilitates his broken body.

This reckless behavior in allowing your franchise savior play injured is EXACTLY the type of mentality that you and others have long complained about regarding Snyder ... the win now and hell with the future attitude. Well guess what, PAL, that's precisely what the Shanahans did with RG3 ... all the while giving lip service to the need for Robert to learn how to protect himself better ... they ran the kid into the ground, right up to his last play of the year. They did everything but wheel him out onto the field in a Burgundy & Gold wheelchair, and it was a disgusting sight ... like a punch drunk fighter being beaten on the ropes and nobody with the decency to stop it.

The most astounding aspect of this is that they wouldn't even be playing that game if it were not for Cousins, who threw the tying TD pass in the waning moments of the Ravens game, and then put up RG3 like numbers the following week in Cleveland. Not only was it a disservice to RG3 to keep playing him injured, but a slap in the face to Cousins to indirectly state that an incapacitated RG3 is still better than the alternative. Cousins has played very well in every opportunity he's had ... and you can bet that he could and probably would be the starting QB had the RG3 deal not materialized. So there was simply no reason in the world to let RG3 go down with the ship, when Cousins couldn't have fared any worse.

And that doesn't require "hindsight" .... it was clear in the 2nd Q ....more clear in the 3rd Q ... but apparently, no amount of evidence was going to be enough. No decision was going to be made, and so they let the situation deteriorate until RG3's body made the decision for them. By then, it was way too late, and the damage was done.

The Hogster wrote:No. I spread it among Shanahan, RGIII and whoever was checking him on the sidelines. I just refuse to cry & complain about it now.

No, don't forget it. Learn from it and yes--move on.

There is no learning when there is no accountability or consequences to one's actions. This is pure common sense, and doesn't take tremendous intellect to understand. And right now, what I see is exactly what I expected to see ... Shanahan refusing to accept responsibility for his poor judgement or admit a mistake. According to Mike, he was just listening to RG3 and the Doctor, so he isn't at fault, and that my boy is the signature calling card of Shanahan. The damned fact is, neither RG3 or the Doctor is in charge of who plays and doesn't play .. that is Shanahan's responsibility, and that responsibility not only includes what's best for the health of the player, but what's best for the team in that game, and in the future.

And you think this is not already a well established pattern with Mikey? Mr. Cardiovascular .... Mr. Throw in the towel in week 9 ... what's the matter ... do you have such a poor memory that you fail to recall how practiced Mike is with the selective memory ... remembers things that suit him, and forgets things that aren't helpful?

It was only 7 games ago that Mike pretty much declared the season lost ... only to backtrack on his own words when the heat was applied, claiming that everyone in the Universe got it all wrong and he made no such insinuation. Everyone is crazy, and just didn't understand what he was saying. This Guy is so egomaniacal that he can't even admit a failure to properly communicate with the media when he revises history to suit himself.

The Hogster wrote:Cry me a river.

Dr. Andrews is so wealthy he's probably replaced all of his own ligaments with pure gold. He didn't do anything like this for money. His reputation is more valuable than any one client pays him. Please get a grip. You're sounding like a conspiracy theorist now. You want to hire a commission to investigate Knee Gate?? Buck up Ray.

I would refer to it as Shana-Knee-Gate. But not so much a conspiracy, and more a cluster-%^ which goes hand in hand with the incompetence well demonstrated in the handling of their THREE previous starting QBs, including the massive miscalculation with John "I'll Stake My Reputation On Him" Beck, who was an unmitigated disaster, so much so that he made Grossman look good.

The bottom line is, no coach is perfect, and can always be second guessed on a number of decisions they make during a season. But there are some errors that fall into the category of understandable and forgivable, while others are simply not tolerable, and require accountability and carry consequences afterward.

Picking McNabb, and then having that blow up, is one thing. Staking your reputation on a John Beck is another. Suffering a poor record for two years can be tolerable when progress is measurable. But when you make such an error as to jeopardize the health of the most important player that the franchise has traded the world for, who is arguably the future of this team for the next decade and longer, this crosses the line of simple mistake and miscalculation, and lands squarely in the realm of gross incompetence. The fact that Mike Shanahan is unwilling to simply admit that he made a grave mistake ... but goes so far as to attempt to justify and rationalize that decision, tells me that he's likely to do the same thing over again, having learned nothing in the process.

That's the reason for firing him ... not that he made the mistake, but that he is likely to continue making them, including a similarly poor judgement call when deciding when RG3 has healed sufficiently to safely return to the field.

There is no evidence to suggest, nor have I any confidence that he'll demonstrate better judgement, next time around.

The Hogster wrote:

GoodOldDays wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.

What evidence do we have to think one of the country's most well-known (and consequently wealthiest) surgeons would disregard the Hippocratic oath in order to make a few grand?

Where is the evidence he did anything wrong?

Great question. Although I'll warn you. Ray has been weeping over a carton of spilled milk since last Sunday. He doesn't want to be realistic. Instead he wants everyone to join a chorus of somber weeping, blame spreading, and will eventually circulate a 'Fire Somebody' petition shortly.

Just a warning.

Of all of the inane attitudes and opinions, this beats them all. For you to characterize the severe injury of our most prized player, and one the franchise traded an UNPRECEDENTED FORTUNE in draft picks for as a carton of spilled milk, qualifies you for .... well the rules don't allow me to elaborate. Use your imagination ... and then multiply by 100.

The Hogster wrote:So the suggestion or implication in Ray's post is that there is a conflict of interest--subconcioiusly or otherwise, that gives Dr. Andrews the incentive to perhaps allow a player a longer leash, expose him to a risk because ultimately he will get to do the surgery and make more money?

Ridiculous.

That is an absurd over-simplification of the situation, and a distortion of my opinion.

1) The Doctor has no say in who plays and who doesn't. That is the Head Coach's decision entirely. And it's clear that it was Shanahan's desire that RG3 play, and one has to assume that the Doctor would understand this.

2) The Doctor works for the Redskins, not RG3, and after the previous mini-controversy involving Shanahan's claims and the Doctor's subsequent comments that appeared to contradict Shanahan, the Doctor later changed his story, and that defines where the "power" resides in this relationship between Andrews, Shanahan and the Redskin's organization as a whole. It certainly doesn't rest in the Doctor's hands, and it never did.

3) The Doctor has been tight lipped since this previous episode, and has responded to requests for details about the operation he performed, citing that he is not authorized to comment any further, as per the Redskins.

4) The Doctor has demonstrated beyond any doubt, that he takes his instructions from the Redskins, they don't take instructions from him. And that would naturally carry over to the Doctor avoiding a situation where he would place himself in a position of countermanding the decision and obvious desire of the Redskins (Shanahan) by objecting to RG3 continuing to play. That the Doctor has such a storied reputation, allows him this leeway, citing his expertise, including the inbuilt plausible deniability inherent in the fact that injuries can happen to otherwise healthy players at any time, and it would be impossible to prove when or why RG3 might suffer a more severe injury. And after all, who is qualified to question the opinion of such a renown expert, particularly when the player himself insists he's alright and able to play?

The Hogster wrote:My fiance is a doctor. And, trust me, their reputations are more valuable than their ability. People don't go to the doctor who screwed up someone--especially not someone as high profile as RGIII. There are probably several Orthapedic Surgeons who can perform surgery with the same skill as Andrews. But, Andrews has the reputation and respect because of his record. I don't buy that. Especially not for a 72 year old surgeon who isn't building a practice, but whose probably making more money just for his presence on the sideline than he is for a surgery.

Hell, he was on the sideline of the BCS Championship game the day after the Skins game.

This is an excellent point, though you seem to miss it yourself. Reputation is important, and Andrews already has an unquestionable one, from a surgical expertise perspective. But let me tell you what he doesn't want to develop .... a reputation as a medical advisor who appears hostile to the positions and interests of the employers paying him, like the Redskins.

And if you think there is some benevolent law in place that automatically defers to the player's best interests when that might conflict with the team's desires or goals, then you are hopelessly lost in a fantasy world that never did exist. Frankly, the only thing the Redskins are actually concerned about is winning, and the only reason they'd be concerned about Robert's injury is if that translates negatively in pursuit of that goal. So long as he's ready and able to carry the jockey by the time the next race is about to start, he'll get the premium hay. For those who's value is deemed inconsequential to that winning, they are summarily dismissed without ceremony. That's just the nature of the business, because it is a business and a very cold blooded one at that.

This is why there is an NFL Payers Union ... to protect the interests of the players ... protect them from whom? Exactly .. protect them from the teams to which they are under contract with. This is why there are established, mandatory protocols now in place dealing with head injuries, because prior to these rules, teams and coaches would routinely send players back onto the field even if they couldn't remember their names. Just ask Shanny about that one ... he sent Terrell Davis onto the field to use as a decoy, when Davis was suffering such a severe migraine headache that he couldn't even see ... his vision was gone. Oh the love and heartfelt concern for the player ... it's heart warming indeed. It's enough to get ya all misty eyed.

Now, you might dismiss this as sour grapes, but LaRon Landry has a thing or two to say about the Redskins Coaching Staff, Trainers and Doctors, and it ain't a glowing endorsement. Of course, the Redskins wanted him to submit to surgery and he was against it ... so they got rid of him, and this team, suffering serious problems in the secondary let him go, and what did he do? Well he came back and played his way into the pro bowl on a legitimate Super Bowl Contender. And what did he have to say about the Redskins? He said he had great respect for Joe Gibbs and staff, but ZERO respect for Shanahan, the trainers and the doctors there now. He said there are some people who love their jobs and do great work, and then there are others who simply have the "title" and couldn't care less, which defines the Redskins staff in place under Shanahan. There may be an element of hard feelings speaking here, but where there is smoke, there is fire, and it's not like Landry is the only one with such harsh opinions of this group.

And if you doubt how much the organization cares about it's players, you only need to look at that pot hole of a field, and you'll realize that the players aren't afforded the same level of concern for the surface they have to play on, compared to the immaculate landscaping that Snyder and Shanahan no doubt enjoy in their own backyards .. but I digress ....

At the end of the day, Shanahan has a cozy ally in Andrews. He has Andrews reputation as an expert to fall back on, to defend his decision to keep RG3 on the field, implying that he left it up to the Doctor's discretion and expertise to decide if it was safe for RG3 to continue playing. The Doctor understands the relationship between employee and employer, and would not likely create a conflict by insisting that RG3 be puled from the game. Doing so would not only strain the relationship with Shanahan, but might create the image or reputation as hostile toward the desires and interests of the signer of the checks ... recognizing that the professional sports world is a small one, and word travels quickly.

This is where the unavoidable conflict of interests comes into play ... not in that one paycheck for standing on the Redskin sidelines or performing the surgery on RG3, but in the undesirable perception that the Good Doctor might not be a "team player".

So, get a clue, will ya?

RayNAustin wrote:
So, get a clue, will ya?

How ironic.

Read this twice to make sure there wasn't a point somewhere that I missed. Nope.

You have a flair for the dramatic, I'll give you that. But, you offer nothing more than an emotional rant detailing your speculation of what may have been in the minds of people. That's something you don't know. And, despite using many words, you aren't very convincing that your opinion is likely true.

Additionally, nothing you have said offers any solution to whatever problem you have with how things are being done, or who is doing them. This is what is known as

Not only can I never get back the 5 minutes I wasted reading this speech, but I walk away from that post knowing for certain that you aren't certain what it is you're saying either.

The Hogster wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:
So, get a clue, will ya?

How ironic.

Read this twice to make sure there wasn't a point somewhere that I missed. Nope.

You have a flair for the dramatic, I'll give you that. But, you offer nothing more than an emotional rant detailing your speculation of what may have been in the minds of people. That's something you don't know. And, despite using many words, you aren't very convincing that your opinion is likely true.

Additionally, nothing you have said offers any solution to whatever problem you have with how things are being done, or who is doing them. This is what is known as

Not only can I never get back the 5 minutes I wasted reading this speech, but I walk away from that post knowing for certain that you aren't certain what it is you're saying either.

This isn't overly surprising .... coming from a person who characterizes a disaster like this as analogous to "spilled milk". Though I gotta tell you, this isn't your finest hour, if you were trying to demonstrate some form of intelligence. I'll have you know that the points you claim to be missing, really are right there in front of your nose ... and in many cases, I even numbered them for you! Had I known that I needed to dial this down to the level of "See Spot Run", I would have adjusted accordingly, so as not to waste your time or mine. So, just for you, I will simplify and highlight the points more thoughtfully:

Point # 1 - Mike Shanahan is a egomaniac who has proven on more than one occasion to have no reservations about twisting the truth inside out. Consequently, nothing the man says can be trusted or taken at face value. Just as problematic, as these narcissistic types tend to do, Mike allows self interests to govern his decisions, rather than good judgement. That leaves us with a man in charge who's decisions cannot be trusted either. This is a dreadful combination, and a situation I contend cannot be "fixed", because integrity, like good judgement, are qualities you either possess or you don't. And Mike Shanahan doesn't. And I am by far not the first person to highlight these flaws.

Point # 2- Lack of integrity and poor judgement always leads to poor outcomes, regardless of the short term gains or successes one might achieve. And Mike Shanahan's story with the Redskins can be summarized as a continuous cycle of one step forward and two steps back, with this third season being the epitome of limited success outweighed by the excessive costs paid for it. And the results don't lie .. they are what they are. And though some claim "hindsight" at work here, the facts are, many had been voicing their concerns and warnings about the potential disaster that has now become reality. That, sir, is foresight, not hindsight, but unfortunately, none of these warnings could be heard, or they fell on deaf ears, at Redskin Park. So the Redskins won the NFC East Title, but sacrificed their most valuable player in the process, while jeopardizing next season in so doing.

Point # 3 - The mishandling of this most valuable player continues even now. Not only did the coach and staff and trainers and the nation's most prominent orthopedic surgeon ALL fail miserably to protect this phenomenal Kid's health by allowing him to play injured, they continue failing him now in an effort to paint this disaster in a more favorable light for the benefit of themselves. By establishing a totally unrealistic expectation for recovery time, beginning with a preposterous 6 month window as a possibility, they have already set the stage, months in advance, for additional harm to occur to RG3's career, should he push his rehabilitation too hard, and return to action too soon in pursuing such an ill conceived goal. This reflects the same poor judgement and absence of appropriate caution and care that facilitated this disaster in the first place.
Given this kid's already established inclination for pushing himself to extremes already, this is the very worst advice he could receive moving forward.

Point # 4 - Points 1 thru 3 show that there are major issues of questionable integrity and judgement with the leadership of this organization. Point # 3 suggests that those who's poor judgement and poor decisions facilitated this terrible result are not the appropriate people to manage it moving forward.

If you still require a "see spot run" summary of the overall point, here it is ... the self serving, dishonest idiot most responsible for this disaster can no longer be trusted, and must go. If he stays, expect more of the same.

You may disagree with that point, but don't claim there is no point being made.

RayNAustin wrote:

Point # 1 - Mike Shanahan is a egomaniac who has proven on more than one occasion to have no reservations about twisting the truth inside out. Consequently, nothing the man says can be trusted or taken at face value. Just as problematic, as these narcissistic types tend to do, Mike allows self interests to govern his decisions, rather than good judgement. That leaves us with a man in charge who's decisions cannot be trusted either. This is a dreadful combination, and a situation I contend cannot be "fixed", because integrity, like good judgement, are qualities you either possess or you don't. And Mike Shanahan doesn't. And I am by far not the first person to highlight these flaws.

Need help getting off that soapbox? I've highlighted examples of your flair for the dramatic. Your rhetoric is a masterful example of hyperbole. All of your first "point" is merely your opinion of Mike Shanahan's character. And, while you're entitled to your opinion. It's just that..your opinion. An opinion isn't necessarily truth though, which is a concept you seem to not fully grasp.

I would argue that your opinion isn't even based on fact. Mike has shown the ability to identify when he's wrong and cut losses or make a change. If he had a crystal ball, he obviously would have pulled RGIII from the game. Hindsight is 20/20.

Point # 2- Lack of integrity and poor judgement always leads to poor outcomes, regardless of the short term gains or successes one might achieve.

More exaggeration. Your conclusion that Mike has no integrity and poor judgment is something you present as a fact. Many would beg to differ. He's no Joe Gibbs, but most coaches aren't. He's old school where you don't tell the truth to the media--only your team. Anything to gain a competitive advantage you do. For you to judge his integrity based on the fact that he misleads the media is borderline insane. Ever heard of Bill Bellichick? He's pretty good.

The phrase "always leads to poor outcomes" stuck out to me. Were you around for his 2 Superbowl wins? How about the complete overhaul of this team? The NFC East title? A 5-1 division record? Those aren't "poor outcomes." Was drafting Alfred Morris in the 6th round poor judgment? How about Kirk Cousins in the 4th?? Signing Pierre Garcon when most called him a #2 WR--another poor outcome? Hyperbole. Get a hold of yourself.

Point # 3 - The mishandling of this most valuable player continues even now. Not only did the coach and staff and trainers and the nation's most prominent orthopedic surgeon ALL fail miserably to protect this phenomenal Kid's health by allowing him to play injured, they continue failing him now in an effort to paint this disaster in a more favorable light for the benefit of themselves. By establishing a totally unrealistic expectation for recovery time, beginning with a preposterous 6 month window as a possibility, they have already set the stage, months in advance, for additional harm to occur to RG3's career, should he push his rehabilitation too hard, and return to action too soon in pursuing such an ill conceived goal.

So, in your mind, it's more feasible to believe that Dr. James Andrews & his father RGII, and his former surgeon who is Harvard educated are all lying--but you, you have the correct answer despite having no information or expertise. And, whose the narcissist?

Point # 4 - Points 1 thru 3 show that there are major issues of questionable integrity and judgement with the leadership of this organization.

No they don't. Points 1-3 are just you ranting and telling everyone your opinion. They aren't even points. They're statements. A point is what I am making. For instance, when you say the 6-8 month recovery period is unrealistic, you rely only on your bare assertion. I can quote Dr. Andrews, and Dr. Lidickes who say the same--both have knowledge an information that you don't.

Point # 3 suggests that those who's poor judgement and poor decisions facilitated this terrible result are not the appropriate people to manage it moving forward.

More opinion. And, in my view--your opinion is assinine. This franchise has finally not only put itself in good fiscal shape with the Salary Cap (even with the penalty) but we've built a team that can contend for a Superbowl for the next several years with the infusion of youth and talent. High scoring offense. #1 rush offense. A defense that is coming on despite a rash of injuries. Yet, you think the people running it are not the "appropriate people to manage it moving forward." I'm almost crying laughing at your logic or lack thereof.

... the self serving, dishonest idiot most responsible for this disaster can no longer be trusted, and must go.

This sounds like a bitter ex-wife.

If he stays, expect more of the same.

This sounds like the bitter ex-wife's girlfriend consoling her.

You may disagree with that point, but don't claim there is no point being made.

You're trying to make a point, but a point without factual support is just an opinion. And, you seem to think we are all entitled to your opinion.

RayNAustin wrote:By establishing a totally unrealistic expectation for recovery time, beginning with a preposterous 6 month window as a possibility, they have already set the stage, months in advance, for additional harm to occur to RG3's career, should he push his rehabilitation too hard, and return to action too soon in pursuing such an ill conceived goal. This reflects the same poor judgement and absence of appropriate caution and care that facilitated this disaster in the first place.
Given this kid's already established inclination for pushing himself to extremes already, this is the very worst advice he could receive moving forward.

Can you pass along a link? I hadn't read that Shanny/Andrews have already established recovery timetable.

GoodOldDays wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:By establishing a totally unrealistic expectation for recovery time, beginning with a preposterous 6 month window as a possibility, they have already set the stage, months in advance, for additional harm to occur to RG3's career, should he push his rehabilitation too hard, and return to action too soon in pursuing such an ill conceived goal. This reflects the same poor judgement and absence of appropriate caution and care that facilitated this disaster in the first place.
Given this kid's already established inclination for pushing himself to extremes already, this is the very worst advice he could receive moving forward.

Can you pass along a link? I hadn't read that Shanny/Andrews have already established recovery timetable.

The timetable was mentioned in a few articles and came from Dr. Andrews from my understanding. He just doesn't believe it much like everything else.

I like how he was used. He scrambled when necessary and most design runs were to the sideline and went well. The kid has a hell of an arm and will continue to, his accuracy when rolling to his left is unbelievable and his play action fakes are among the league best. This being said when he runs he is normally smart, minus the falcons game. I would like to see less designed runs in the future just to increase the chance of lengthening his carrer.
As long as the Shanahan's continue to adapt the offense around Robert Griffin III's strenghts, whatever they may be, I am 100% supportive of the coaching staff's use of him.

The Hogster wrote:
The timetable was mentioned in a few articles and came from Dr. Andrews from my understanding. He just doesn't believe it much like everything else.

The only quote I saw from Andrews was a pretty generic one complimenting Griffin's worth ethic and hoping he'd be able to be ready for the '13 season. Unless there was something more than that I don't quite understand the criticism.

IMO - both Kyle and Mike did a good job with RG3

Kyle was sent down to Texas to get together with RG3 and go over what he and Mike had in mind - they came up with an offense that they all felt would ease the transition to being an NFL QB

RG3 has said that it took a while for him to become comfortable with the read-option and the offense out of the pistol formation

having seen what Colin K did in SFO last Saturday, I am VERY excited to see the Redskins on offense again

the offense that Kyle and Mike want to run is similar but better and RG3 suits this to a T ...
Executing this offense PROPERLY will mean that he puts himself at less risk by taking what the defense gives him and more importantly, not trying to be an open field runner


RG3 has better speed than Kaepernick and a much better arm and touch in the passing game

I'm looking forward to defending the NFC East title

The use of RGIII is not the issue. Russell Wilson & Kaepernick are used in a similar way. They rarely get hit. Continue doing what we are doing, and RGIII must learn from this and protect himself.

THAT's the idea - I think that RG3 was getting this and I think that both Mike & Kyle were trying to 'use him' better and in a way that minimized the risk of big hits

I'm looking forward to RG3 coming back with a lot better understanding of what he can do and what he should not try to do

The Hogster wrote:The use of RGIII is not the issue. Russell Wilson & Kaepernick are used in a similar way. They rarely get hit. Continue doing what we are doing, and RGIII must learn from this and protect himself.

Yes and no. They were used similarly in the regular season - but even then, only later in the year and not nearly as often. For instance (maybe someone can find the stat), I believe Griff went to the ground 28 times vs the Bengals alone. We ran triple option and read option from the pistol repeatedly. We ran a cultural icon with braggadocio. Defenses head-hunted and destroyed him AFTER he pitched many times. Any time he ran (and even when he didn't) guys were looking to hurt him whether he slid or not. Even Ngata could have touched him down but instead, launched, as Mike Tyson used to say, with "bad intention." In contrast, the 49ers and Hawks have gradually implemented pistol and such as a compliment - not a base feature.

Neither was used for 3 quarters while severely damaged as Griff was.

If only we had actually given him 2-4 weeks of actual rest and rehab after the original LCL. Not doing so was short-sighted. What we did against Seattle was "throwing good money after bad." I remain hopeful that he comes back as good as or better than ever.

DarthMonk

I also believe RGIII was used excessively on designed running plays.

Most of the times I saw him launch forward for a couple of more yards,
as if he were a RB. That is not good.

Dude NEEDS to learn when to slide and/or get of bounds.

I think he should have never played against the Cowboys. Starting him against Seattle was pushing his luck way too far.

I understand the whole "dance with the one that brought you" idea, but I expected better judgement from the coaches.

Let's hope he and the people around him can do a better job next year.

I personally think he was over-used after the Ravens game. He should have rested one more week after the Browns game, IMO. We did play the Eagles after the Browns and I think Cousins could have led us to another victory.

StorminMormon86 wrote:I personally think he was over-used after the Ravens game. He should have rested one more week after the Browns game, IMO. We did play the Eagles after the Browns and I think Cousins could have led us to another victory.

Grif, in part, is great because of his mobility and Morris is dependent upon it, at least before the OL is truly stellar, which it is not. It, too, is dependent on Grif's running, as well as passing. We've got to hope for modifications of his style, not his abandoning it. In short, he must slide and stop fighting at the sidelines and hurling himself into tacklers.

I don't blame Shanny for using him against Seattle, but the tweak in the first quarter should not have been ignored. He should have been replaced, both for the sake of his knee and the game itself. It was obvious he couldn't throw or run after that and our failure to score the last three quarters was not surprising. If Cousins had been at all competitive, we would have won the game and we would still be singing the praises of the defense. Remember how long it took for Seattle to score on us. If we simply controlled the ball more, those last touchdowns would not have occurred.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

StorminMormon86 wrote:I personally think he was over-used after the Ravens game. He should have rested one more week after the Browns game, IMO. We did play the Eagles after the Browns and I think Cousins could have led us to another victory.

Grif, in part, is great because of his mobility and Morris is dependent upon it, at least before the OL is truly stellar, which it is not. It, too, is dependent on Grif's running, as well as passing. We've got to hope for modifications of his style, not his abandoning it. In short, he must slide and stop fighting at the sidelines and hurling himself into tacklers.

I don't blame Shanny for using him against Seattle, but the tweak in the first quarter should not have been ignored. He should have been replaced, both for the sake of his knee and the game itself. It was obvious he couldn't throw or run after that and our failure to score the last three quarters was not surprising. If Cousins had been at all competitive, we would have won the game and we would still be singing the praises of the defense. Remember how long it took for Seattle to score on us. If we simply controlled the ball more, those last touchdowns would not have occurred.

It's been a while since I've posted. Now that emotions have subsided I believe your assessment is correct. There is no grand conspiracy here. Just humans trying their best but making some mistakes.