The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

If RGIII is healthy, he plays.

PERIOD.

If RGIII is still at risk, Captain Kirk starts..

PERIOD.

My prediction? RGIII leads our team into victory!

Skinsfan55 wrote:No, RGIII has rested enough to heal a LCL sprain, he's the better player, he plays.

What I'd like to know is: what are the odds we trade Cousins this offseason? He played extremely well in limited duty, definitely looks like a starting caliber NFL QB...

Schawb, Cassell, etc. show that young QB's can bring in big returns.

Cousins could be Mara-BAIT. He will want him to back-up Eli.

Perfect way to "get back" at Mara.....? NO WAY....!!!

If the price is right..? STILL ----NO WAY. Not to a division rival

emoses14 wrote:

skinz1982 wrote:Cousins should start, this is a bad Philly team. Give RG3 another week to heal completely. KC just proved he can beat a decent defense on the road by 17 points. Could have won by more but Shanahan showed mercy on the Browns.

KC is the better pocket passer, anyway, and this is a passing league. What makes RG3 so dangerous is his dual threat ability. If he's not 100% it's just not worth putting him out there unless it's a must win game against a good team.

No, he isn't. RGIII is the better pocket, on the designed move, scramble and otherwise, passer.

This what makes RGIII damn near unstoppable, and incredibly dangerous. But without it, he's still more dangerous than Kirk. Coincidentally, that is why one of them is the starter and the other isn't.

Disagree. Saw both play quite a bit in college. RGIII has better arm strength but that's about it. Cousins has better touch and better accuracy. Also more decisive in the pocket. RGIII is the better all-around player, obviously.

skinz1982 wrote:Cousins has better touch and better accuracy. Also more decisive in the pocket.

Totally disagree.

5 weeks ago the team was getting ready for evaluations for next season. NO GAME IS A WALK IN THE PARK for the Skins, much less a divisional rival looking for something positive to carry them til draft day....
RG3 was in team warm ups yesterday, get him ready for the beagles game. Kirk is very good, but he is the back up.
HaiL,

StorminMormon86 wrote:I like Cousins...a lot...but RGIII is going to start if he's cleared. No questions asked. I can't fathom why people are talking about using Cousins as trade fodder. You do realize that it's a very real possibility that Griffin won't stay healthy for all 16 games in a season?

I would like to keep him, but what is his contract situation like?

Once his contracts ends, KC is gone because he knows he can get a starting job on another team.

As such, we need to make sure we can get the most trade value from him. It may be at the end of this year or next, but we'll need to capitalize on it. Personally, I would like to keep him for as long as we can before trading him, but we have to get something from him and not just lose him to free agency when his contract expires.

And anyone who thinks KC will re-sign as a free agent to back up RGIII is crazy. The kid is a competitor --- he will want to start if an opportunity presents itself. He just needs to make sure he puts himself in a good position and not sign with a team that doesn't put him in a position to succeed.

skinz1982 wrote:

emoses14 wrote:

skinz1982 wrote:Cousins should start, this is a bad Philly team. Give RG3 another week to heal completely. KC just proved he can beat a decent defense on the road by 17 points. Could have won by more but Shanahan showed mercy on the Browns.

KC is the better pocket passer, anyway, and this is a passing league. What makes RG3 so dangerous is his dual threat ability. If he's not 100% it's just not worth putting him out there unless it's a must win game against a good team.

No, he isn't. RGIII is the better pocket, on the designed move, scramble and otherwise, passer.

This what makes RGIII damn near unstoppable, and incredibly dangerous. But without it, he's still more dangerous than Kirk. Coincidentally, that is why one of them is the starter and the other isn't.

Disagree. Saw both play quite a bit in college. RGIII has better arm strength but that's about it. Cousins has better touch and better accuracy. Also more decisive in the pocket. RGIII is the better all-around player, obviously.

I saw both play in college as well. And I can understand how someone might have a different opinion because Kirk is really good, much better than a lot of "us" gave him credit for when drafted. But more importantly I've watched both play in the pros. Griffin is the better decision maker, quarterback, reader of defenses (whether it be in the context of the option read, pistol formation plays, shotgun or dropbacks). Cousins has 1 less INT in 1.7 games as Griffin does all year. Out of 48 attempts, Kirk's got 3 picks. In 351 attempts Griffin has 4. That tells me someone is reading defenses better and making better throws, from everywhere on the field, including the pocket. Being decisive in the pocket is only worthwhile if the decisions you make are good ones. AGAIN, I don't think Kirk makes bad decisions or is a bad qb, but on no metric is he better than Robert.

Countertrey wrote:

funsho2 wrote:

Countertrey wrote:Um... NO. There is a better quarterback on the team.

smh that this thread exists.

some people might want rg3 to rest another week given we are playing a 4-10 philly team

The NFC East is NOT in our pocket yet. You play your best until it is... if Dallas and NY lose next week, you can then play Cousins against Dallas. back atcha...

If we beat the Egirls and the Cowgirls lose to the Aints that would put the Skins @ 9-6 and the Cowpukes @ 8-7 going into the last game that would mean if the Skins lose to the Cowgirls the last game they would be tied in:

- Record
- Head to head
- Division record
- Common opponenets
- Conference record

the next tie breaker would be strenght of victory and right now the Skins have the edge in that. The Skins are +31 and the Pukes are -11. Obviouly that can change and will change over these next two weeks, but if we get thorugh Phily and the Giants lose one of the next two it looks like we could win the NFCE even w/o sweeping the Cowgirls!

skinsfan#33 wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

funsho2 wrote:

Countertrey wrote:Um... NO. There is a better quarterback on the team.

smh that this thread exists.

some people might want rg3 to rest another week given we are playing a 4-10 philly team

The NFC East is NOT in our pocket yet. You play your best until it is... if Dallas and NY lose next week, you can then play Cousins against Dallas. back atcha...

If we beat the Egirls and the Cowgirls lose to the Aints that would put the Skins @ 9-6 and the Cowpukes @ 8-7 going into the last game that would mean if the Skins lose to the Cowgirls the last game they would be tied in:

- Record
- Head to head
- Division record
- Common opponenets
- Conference record

the next tie breaker would be strenght of victory and right now the Skins have the edge in that. The Skins are +31 and the Pukes are -11. Obviouly that can change and will change over these next two weeks, but if we get thorugh Phily and the Giants lose one of the next two it looks like we could win the NFCE even w/o sweeping the Cowgirls!

I used the playoff scenario generator in ATL, and it said the Pies get the 4th seed if we lose to them week 17.

RGIII is our quarterback. If he's healthy, he plays.

Also, I understand the fantasies about trading KC at some point to recoup our draft picks. But personally I'm in no rush to see that happen. We haven't had a franchise QB since Joe Theisman. Now we have two solid young QBs on our roster for the next four years on affordable rookie contracts.

That is STABILITY. I don't see why anyone would be in a rush to trade that away.

Love the cover photo: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1447 ... to-week-16

DaveD1420 wrote:Love the cover photo: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1447 ... to-week-16

Not sure how they can still rank the G-strings above us. smh

R G 3 !!!!

SkinsJock wrote:

funsho2 wrote:Yes or No...give reason

WHY? - is that good enough or do you just not get it - get outa here with the negative vibes

we're playing for a record of 10-6

I cannot believe some of your posts

LMAO SJ Some people like to stir the pot. Thanks for putting him in his place.

StorminMormon86 wrote:I like Cousins...a lot...but RGIII is going to start if he's cleared. No questions asked. I can't fathom why people are talking about using Cousins as trade fodder. You do realize that it's a very real possibility that Griffin won't stay healthy for all 16 games in a season?

We are missing a few draft picks. If we can recoup some then even better. We still need DB help next year. Lets not worry about that yet until the off season.

What do you do if he practices all week and impresses the coaches and deems himself ready to play BUT the doctors say he still needs one more week....

What do you do then? They went with the docs opinion this week but you are all saying play him and i know most of stated only if he is healthy but he could "look" healthy in practice and do everything they ask of him but still not have the blessing from the docs .. Do you still say let him risk it ?? We all know he is going to say he is fine and ready to go ...

What do you do then?

If the doctors say no, then you go with Captain Kirk again.

Deadskins wrote:If the doctors say no, then you go with Captain Kirk again.

Insightful.

emoses14 wrote:I saw both play in college as well. And I can understand how someone might have a different opinion because Kirk is really good, much better than a lot of "us" gave him credit for when drafted. But more importantly I've watched both play in the pros. Griffin is the better decision maker, quarterback, reader of defenses (whether it be in the context of the option read, pistol formation plays, shotgun or dropbacks). Cousins has 1 less INT in 1.7 games as Griffin does all year. Out of 48 attempts, Kirk's got 3 picks. In 351 attempts Griffin has 4. That tells me someone is reading defenses better and making better throws, from everywhere on the field, including the pocket. Being decisive in the pocket is only worthwhile if the decisions you make are good ones. AGAIN, I don't think Kirk makes bad decisions or is a bad qb, but on no metric is he better than Robert.

Admittedly I'm not a big stats guy, I go with what I observe. And I don't mean to sound like "that guy" but I played and coached (briefly) at the DIII level on the offensive side of the ball and would like to think I have a decent eye for these things.

Griffin's TD to INT ratio is impressive, but the thing is he is throwing to more open receivers due to the respect the defense has to give to his running ability in the zone read. And that's not to take anything away from RGIII, as having that impact on the defense is what makes him the more dangerous and better overall player. And it is hard to knock KC for some of those picks when you're coming in cold off the bench and have limited experience practicing with the ones. The timing and chemistry may not be there. A QB really needs time to get into a flow, I think yesterday's game was proof of that.

And please, don't misinterpret this for me saying that Cousins is the better PLAYER or the better OPTION. He's not. I'm just saying he's the better PURE PASSER and has more experience as a pocket passer, starting for three seasons at Michigan State in a traditional pro style. Knowing when to put the perfect touch and velocity on the ball is something you really can't coach and he has it, better than RGIII. He also throws a ball I think that is easier for WRs to catch (you'll noticed we didn't suffer dropsies yesterday) and he does great at leading his WRs so they get yards after the catch. He is also tremendous at the play action fake which is much more difficult than you would think to master. My biggest knock against him would be his footwork, which isn't terrible, and his arm strength is not tremendous, but certainly good enough.

Let me put it to you this way. If you take away RGIII's ability to run and improvise, and turn him strictly into a pocket passer, I don't think he could carve up a defense the way Cousins can. His mechanics, accuracy and ability to read a defense is a notch below KC, in my humble opinion.

Deadskins wrote:

skinz1982 wrote:Cousins has better touch and better accuracy. Also more decisive in the pocket.

Totally disagree.

This

skinsfan#33 wrote:
If we beat the Egirls and the Cowgirls lose to the Aints that would put the Skins @ 9-6 and the Cowpukes @ 8-7 going into the last game that would mean if the Skins lose to the Cowgirls the last game they would be tied in:

- Record
- Head to head
- Division record
- Common opponenets
- Conference record

the next tie breaker would be strenght of victory and right now the Skins have the edge in that. The Skins are +31 and the Pukes are -11. Obviouly that can change and will change over these next two weeks, but if we get thorugh Phily and the Giants lose one of the next two it looks like we could win the NFCE even w/o sweeping the Cowgirls!

How the teams currently stand in the division tiebreakers:

First tiebreaker - head-to-head: Redskins (2-1), Giants (2-2), Cowboys (1-2)
Second tiebreaker - division record: Redskins (3-1), Giants (2-3), Cowboys (3-2)
Third tiebreaker - common opponents: Redskins (5-4), Giants (7-2), Cowboys (7-2)



Your scenario would do this head-to-head:

all 2-2

to division record:

Redskins (4-2)
Giants (3-3 at best)
Cowboys (4-2)

and common oponents:

Redskins (6-5)
Giants (7-4 at worst)
Cowboys (8-3)

We cannot clinch East this week. We can clinch Wild Card.

We must sweep Cowboys to win East.

DarthMonk

skinz1982 wrote:Admittedly I'm not a big stats guy, I go with what I observe. And I don't mean to sound like "that guy" but I played and coached (briefly) at the DIII level on the offensive side of the ball and would like to think I have a decent eye for these things.

Griffin's TD to INT ratio is impressive, but the thing is he is throwing to more open receivers due to the respect the defense has to give to his running ability in the zone read. And that's not to take anything away from RGIII, as having that impact on the defense is what makes him the more dangerous and better overall player. And it is hard to knock KC for some of those picks when you're coming in cold off the bench and have limited experience practicing with the ones. The timing and chemistry may not be there. A QB really needs time to get into a flow, I think yesterday's game was proof of that.

And please, don't misinterpret this for me saying that Cousins is the better PLAYER or the better OPTION. He's not. I'm just saying he's the better PURE PASSER and has more experience as a pocket passer, starting for three seasons at Michigan State in a traditional pro style. Knowing when to put the perfect touch and velocity on the ball is something you really can't coach and he has it, better than RGIII. He also throws a ball I think that is easier for WRs to catch (you'll noticed we didn't suffer dropsies yesterday) and he does great at leading his WRs so they get yards after the catch. He is also tremendous at the play action fake which is much more difficult than you would think to master. My biggest knock against him would be his footwork, which isn't terrible, and his arm strength is not tremendous, but certainly good enough.

Let me put it to you this way. If you take away RGIII's ability to run and improvise, and turn him strictly into a pocket passer, I don't think he could carve up a defense the way Cousins can. His mechanics, accuracy and ability to read a defense is a notch below KC, in my humble opinion.

You may not be a big stats guy, but what you lack in quantitative reasoning you knock out of the park in qualitative reasoning. Excellent post and I agree. Couldn't have said it better myself, and to re-emphasize, this does not take anything away from the total package that is RGIII.

One thing I noticed that KC seems to be a bit better at is going through his reads. That doesn't mean he has better decision making, but he certainly never fixes on one guy. RGIII sometimes does and makes a quick decision to dump the ball off to the check down receiver. Different styles, both effective.

FanofallthatisGibbs wrote:You may not be a big stats guy, but what you lack in quantitative reasoning you knock out of the park in qualitative reasoning. Excellent post and I agree. Couldn't have said it better myself, and to re-emphasize, this does not take anything away from the total package that is RGIII.

I think there's SOME value in stats if you have the benefit of an apples to apples comparison, but that doesn't happen often. For the most part stats are misleading.

For example, if you give RGIII and Cousins the exact same number of throws, my guess is Cousins would wind up with more interceptions, reason being, he would be trying to fit the ball into tighter windows. RGIII would have the benefit of throwing to receivers who have more separation. But that's the thing. The mismatches that RGIII creates on the field is what makes him so dangerous. Cousins isn't going to bring the dynamic, although he certainly did a good job of it with those play action boots.

In a 3rd and long situation or a 2 minute drill where you have to drive 80 yards, I would probably put more faith in Cousins. But over the course of 4 quarters, give me RGIII.

RGIII is the total package that people thought Mike Vick and Cam Newton were GOING to be. He's already better than both of those guys and he's only a rookie.

It's vital that he stays healthy, but it's inevitable that he's going to get dinged with the way he plays, and if and when that happens, I have total faith in Cousins and Kyle calling plays to suit his strengths as a passer.

skinz1982 wrote:

emoses14 wrote:I saw both play in college as well. And I can understand how someone might have a different opinion because Kirk is really good, much better than a lot of "us" gave him credit for when drafted. But more importantly I've watched both play in the pros. Griffin is the better decision maker, quarterback, reader of defenses (whether it be in the context of the option read, pistol formation plays, shotgun or dropbacks). Cousins has 1 less INT in 1.7 games as Griffin does all year. Out of 48 attempts, Kirk's got 3 picks. In 351 attempts Griffin has 4. That tells me someone is reading defenses better and making better throws, from everywhere on the field, including the pocket. Being decisive in the pocket is only worthwhile if the decisions you make are good ones. AGAIN, I don't think Kirk makes bad decisions or is a bad qb, but on no metric is he better than Robert.

Admittedly I'm not a big stats guy, I go with what I observe. And I don't mean to sound like "that guy" but I played and coached (briefly) at the DIII level on the offensive side of the ball and would like to think I have a decent eye for these things.

Griffin's TD to INT ratio is impressive, but the thing is he is throwing to more open receivers due to the respect the defense has to give to his running ability in the zone read. And that's not to take anything away from RGIII, as having that impact on the defense is what makes him the more dangerous and better overall player. And it is hard to knock KC for some of those picks when you're coming in cold off the bench and have limited experience practicing with the ones. The timing and chemistry may not be there. A QB really needs time to get into a flow, I think yesterday's game was proof of that.

And please, don't misinterpret this for me saying that Cousins is the better PLAYER or the better OPTION. He's not. I'm just saying he's the better PURE PASSER and has more experience as a pocket passer, starting for three seasons at Michigan State in a traditional pro style. Knowing when to put the perfect touch and velocity on the ball is something you really can't coach and he has it, better than RGIII. He also throws a ball I think that is easier for WRs to catch (you'll noticed we didn't suffer dropsies yesterday) and he does great at leading his WRs so they get yards after the catch. He is also tremendous at the play action fake which is much more difficult than you would think to master. My biggest knock against him would be his footwork, which isn't terrible, and his arm strength is not tremendous, but certainly good enough.

Let me put it to you this way. If you take away RGIII's ability to run and improvise, and turn him strictly into a pocket passer, I don't think he could carve up a defense the way Cousins can. His mechanics, accuracy and ability to read a defense is a notch below KC, in my humble opinion.

Oh, I understand where you’re coming from and what you’re saying. And I hear you to be saying that you think Kirk is the better pure passer, not the better quarterback or Option. And I am definitely saying that I think Griffin is. I actually think his stats aren’t indicative of the degree to which he is better than Kirk. I absolutely agree with the approach of believing your eyes over the statistics. They can be twisted to prove anything. But when I’ve watched Griffin play and read a defense what I see is mastery pre snap as well as post snap on all of the plays he runs, be it “traditional” drop backs or option reads. I think what you’re keying in on is the same thing I am, but my conclusion favors Robert as better than Kirk. The amazing part of this is that I agree Griffin didn’t do this in college nearly as much as Kirk, which is why I am so shocked that he is better than Kirk. I personally think this is what has everyone else in the league (you know the players and coaches that have to game plan to stop him and Kyle’s offense) so gaga and incredulous. They anticipate the running ability and the pistol and all of that, what they are dumfounded by is his throwing. For instance, if I may be so bold as to put words in your mouth, from your assessment I would guess you view griffin’s touchdown to Garcon in the Dallas game as having been a late throw causing Garcon to have to reach behind him to catch the ball. I see that as the epitome of how well Robert reads defenses and the play. He saw a window that didn’t fit neatly in with the manner in which the play was designed, i.e. Pierre breaking free of the first zone defender to the left, in front of the safety on high side fo the play and then the linebacker to the right who was floating to the play’s left. So Robert made the right read to throw it into tight zone coverage, slightly behind Pierre and trust his receiver. That is just one play, but is indicative of Robert talent at Pure Passing. I don’t see Kirk with the ability to read that play, make that pass or pull the trigger. Actually, I think he would have pulled the trigger, if he would have seen it, which I doubt he would have.

Make no mistake though, if we didn't have Robert and hadn't taken Luck, I would be (as I already am) OVER THE MOON about Kirk. I love everything about him. I just love everything about Griffin more (which I hear you to be saying you do as well, too). I do disagree with you completely on what Griffin would be if we took away his running ability. Frankly, he'd still be a better pocket passer than Kirk.