The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

grampi wrote:

HarleyHog wrote:We WILL IMPROVE

Do you have any idea for how many decades I've been hearing this now?

I hear you, sit in your chair and write whiny posts until we win enough games to satisfy you. You have a little beer fridge by your chair so you don't have to walk all the way to the kitchen, don't you? This'll blow your mind, I keep my beer in my ... garage ... fridge ...

frankcal20 wrote:My concern is that maybe Haslett is calling the defense the players can execute. Given the injuries to the Dline, you can't have your corners playing Man. They'll be on an island. Playing man requires a lot of pressure from the Dline and if you don't get it, you're screwed. I'm pretty sure that's how we were burned quite a bit. When we played Zone, the safeties seemed to be often times in the wrong place.

Something else I noticed yesterday - and it's not an excuse at all - but our whole team seemed to have terrible footing. Wilson got burned because he looked like he was ice skating with tennis shoes. Not to mention the field seemed to be chewed up by whatever had been played there recently and we kept seeing sand being kicked up. That is an embarrassment in my opinion by our staff b/c I really don't think that our guys were wearing the right shoes yesterday.

Wilson got burned because there is no reasonable explanation why he should have been assigned to cover Binn alone. Shoes would not have made any difference. I don't think there is any linebacker in the league that can cover Greene. Our secondary is getting beat on almost every play. How many 20+ yard plays did they give up yesterday? I lost count. Probably about half a dozen plus about a dozen 10+ yard plays. You can't win games giving up that much yardage.

frankcal20 wrote:The team has sucked for a long time. What I think a lot of you are feeling is anger because you came into the season expecting to be a lot better than we were actually going to be. Especially after knocking off New Orleans, I heard the local radio shows, it was all about reassessing our win/loss total. Folks were talking 9-7, 10-6 and some said maybe 12-4 which is just crazy.

We're a VERY young team. A team that is being built and something that can't be done overnight. It takes time. We've sucked for a long time, I don't think any of us are going to jump ship just yet anyways.

i agree it,s all a process and it takes time.

HarleyHog wrote:

UK Skins Fan wrote:You know where you can stick your "bright side", don't you?

No offence.

Actually, offense should be intended. If you lack a bright side view why poison someone else's faint glimmer of hope? All this constant negative projecting is a self fulfilling prophecy. We WILL IMPROVE, so try not to monsoon on the parade of we who try to project positives, please.

Chill out my friend. I should have included the at the end of that post, as the tongue in cheek nature was clearly lost.

I try not to get too down after losses, or too up after wins, so I applaud any attempts to introduce a "bright side". But right now, all I'm interested in is how many games we've won, compared to how many we should have won, if only our defence was mediocre.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:we're making progress ... we used to be a franchise that really sucked, BIG time ... now we're just bad

things are getting better

a lot of fans here just look at how bad we are and not at the FACT that we actually are getting better




on a slightly different note ... Mike had better take Kyle to the woodshed for a serious wake-up conversation ... we need RGIII for the future

We are not getting better and have not been getting better under Shanny. Sure, there have been positives, but there have been matching negatives. I am really tired of the fantastic notion that our front office and coaching is now "professional," as if they are somehow better than past administrations.
They're not a bit better. Even with RG111, an unbelievable talent, we're not better. We're likely to get him killed. Think how bad we'd be if we hadn't gotten him....Wow!

I guess you aren't a "big picture" guy then........

I'm not sure you truly understand how big of a hole this team was in 2 years ago.

While I don't 100% agree with everything the FO is doing -- to say that Bruce Allen/MS is every REMOTELY similar to dumb and dumber is literally insane.

This team still has a TON of work to do, but this team at least has some foundational pieces. 2 years ago it was just a group of random guys slapped together and called a team. It takes a couple years to clear out the trash and replace with better personell -- and to have them play as a real TEAM.

There is now structure, a vision, a plan -- when in the past there really wasn't. If you can't see that; I can't help you.

Yes, we still are a straight up bad team, but you need to look at the direction the team is going --- and if you can see it, you'll understand that correct changes are being made.

frankcal20 wrote:The team has sucked for a long time. What I think a lot of you are feeling is anger because you came into the season expecting to be a lot better than we were actually going to be. Especially after knocking off New Orleans, I heard the local radio shows, it was all about reassessing our win/loss total. Folks were talking 9-7, 10-6 and some said maybe 12-4 which is just crazy.

We're a VERY young team. A team that is being built and something that can't be done overnight. It takes time. We've sucked for a long time, I don't think any of us are going to jump ship just yet anyways.

sounds like a presidential campaign: I need 4 more years to fix this crap..!!!

Is that what you're saying Frankie..?

UK Skins Fan wrote:

HarleyHog wrote:

UK Skins Fan wrote:You know where you can stick your "bright side", don't you?

No offence.

Actually, offense should be intended. If you lack a bright side view why poison someone else's faint glimmer of hope? All this constant negative projecting is a self fulfilling prophecy. We WILL IMPROVE, so try not to monsoon on the parade of we who try to project positives, please.

Chill out my friend. I should have included the at the end of that post, as the tongue in cheek nature was clearly lost.

I try not to get too down after losses, or too up after wins, so I applaud any attempts to introduce a "bright side". But right now, all I'm interested in is how many games we've won, compared to how many we should have won, if only our defence was mediocre.

oh right...I remember: stay medium (JZ)
works for me

Yea Frank you're right bro. After the Saints game people did change their stance on our record but if they sit down and think about, the Saints upset was really just that.. an upset.

I'm keeping it calm for once in my life but the bright side to me is that we have an offense that puts up points.. FINALLY !!!

tribeofjudah wrote:oh right...I remember: stay medium (JZ)
works for me

I base my whole life on the teachings of the Zornmeister. Which might explain why I'm currently out of work.

UK Skins Fan wrote:

tribeofjudah wrote:oh right...I remember: stay medium (JZ)
works for me

I base my whole life on the teachings of the Zornmeister. Which might explain why I'm currently out of work.

Unemployment in the UK....?

how about: Anarchy is the UK (sex pistols)

Our offense is so much better this year than last year that's it's rubbed off on the defense as now, they too, are offensive.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

grampi wrote:

HarleyHog wrote:We WILL IMPROVE

Do you have any idea for how many decades I've been hearing this now?

I hear you, sit in your chair and write whiny posts until we win enough games to satisfy you. You have a little beer fridge by your chair so you don't have to walk all the way to the kitchen, don't you? This'll blow your mind, I keep my beer in my ... garage ... fridge ...

Most fans direct their frustration at the team where it belongs...but some fans direct their's at other fans...

We're a VERY young team. A team that is being built and something that can't be done overnight. It takes time. We've sucked for a long time, I don't think any of us are going to jump ship just yet anyways.

they are NOT a very young team on defense. when Fletcher retires this season, how do you replace him? you can't replace him. just like you can't replace a sean Taylor.

its been a while since i have been emotionally tied to this particular franchise, but i think after the past 20 years, telling their fans "it takes time" is akin to telling them "I'm going to slide this long needle in your eye, slowly"

they don't want to hear it anymore.

grampi wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

grampi wrote:

HarleyHog wrote:We WILL IMPROVE

Do you have any idea for how many decades I've been hearing this now?

I hear you, sit in your chair and write whiny posts until we win enough games to satisfy you. You have a little beer fridge by your chair so you don't have to walk all the way to the kitchen, don't you? This'll blow your mind, I keep my beer in my ... garage ... fridge ...

Most fans direct their frustration at the team where it belongs...but some fans direct their's at other fans...

Perhaps... I imagine it's easiest to direct it at fans whom have never had an optimistic word to say, though... but, that's just my opinion...

Wow, too soon I guess.

I didn't realize the wounds from those Bengals were so fresh. You guys are acting like we lost to a horrible team, which we did not. The Bengals are damn good, were close to playing for the AFC Championship last year, they are a year older and wiser now, and the connection between Andy Dalton to Green is among the NFL's best. I mean, they are an offensive force and there was no shame in our DBs getting beat by some of the better WRs in the NFL. As has been said earlier, adjustments are tough right now. You put pressure and keep the guys on an island, then you get beat for a huge gain. You play a zone, no pressure and the QB picks you apart. We simply do not have the personnel in the secondary to play NFL caliber pass defense. We all knew the secondary was a glaring weakness coming in, add some injuries and BOOM, the whole thing just explodes on you! You know the players feel it too, which means they are trying to hard and getting caught out of position and taking bad angles in an attempt to make up for what's going on. This is squarely on the coaches.

Look, all things considered, the season is a marathon. I still expect no better than a 8-8 season. Looking at the NFL East, I honestly am not that scared of Dallas or Philly. More so NYG and I think the Giants have the coaching and patience to pull through the long season on top of the NFC East once again. A rookie QB has never led an NFL team to better than 8-8. I am angry about missed opportunities too, but we are much closer to being a good, respected team than people here would insinuate from a couple games. Morris is a beast at RB right now.

And no, to many people's surprise, this is NOT a young team. The Redskins rank 24th in that category with an avg. age of 26.53. But the youngest team, the Rams, avg. age is only about a year younger at 25.32. With less than 2 years between the oldest team (Chargers) and the youngest, this metric is BS. There is no such thing as an "old" or "young" team. However, our leaders and playmakers (Fletcher aside) are all young - RGIII, Morris, Garcon, Kerrigan + 3 young OL drafted that are not yet ready to start (normal for OL). The future looks good for this franchise, but we have to get over the hump.

Win and retool, win and retool. That is what FA has done to the game. We have cleaned out a lot of the trash, but in doing so have lost a couple diamonds along the way (Sean Taylor, Landry, ey now likely Orakpo & Carriker). The financial mismanagement of this team cannot be overstated as it is the root of all problems in a game of inches. All that said, our FO is now retooling year in, year out, and we are getting to where we need to be in the NFL. Capgate hurt like hell, and don't even kid yourself to think any team can overcome that type of disadvantage.

Countertrey wrote:

grampi wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

grampi wrote:

HarleyHog wrote:We WILL IMPROVE

Do you have any idea for how many decades I've been hearing this now?

I hear you, sit in your chair and write whiny posts until we win enough games to satisfy you. You have a little beer fridge by your chair so you don't have to walk all the way to the kitchen, don't you? This'll blow your mind, I keep my beer in my ... garage ... fridge ...

Most fans direct their frustration at the team where it belongs...but some fans direct their's at other fans...

Perhaps... I imagine it's easiest to direct it at fans whom have never had an optimistic word to say, though... but, that's just my opinion...

What's the title of this thread, again?

FanofallthatisGibbs wrote:Wow, too soon I guess.

I didn't realize the wounds from those Bengals were so fresh. You guys are acting like we lost to a horrible team, which we did not. The Bengals are damn good, were close to playing for the AFC Championship last year, they are a year older and wiser now, and the connection between Andy Dalton to Green is among the NFL's best. I mean, they are an offensive force and there was no shame in our DBs getting beat by some of the better WRs in the NFL. As has been said earlier, adjustments are tough right now. You put pressure and keep the guys on an island, then you get beat for a huge gain. You play a zone, no pressure and the QB picks you apart. We simply do not have the personnel in the secondary to play NFL caliber pass defense. We all knew the secondary was a glaring weakness coming in, add some injuries and BOOM, the whole thing just explodes on you! You know the players feel it too, which means they are trying to hard and getting caught out of position and taking bad angles in an attempt to make up for what's going on. This is squarely on the coaches.

Look, all things considered, the season is a marathon. I still expect no better than a 8-8 season. Looking at the NFL East, I honestly am not that scared of Dallas or Philly. More so NYG and I think the Giants have the coaching and patience to pull through the long season on top of the NFC East once again. A rookie QB has never led an NFL team to better than 8-8. I am angry about missed opportunities too, but we are much closer to being a good, respected team than people here would insinuate from a couple games. Morris is a beast at RB right now.

And no, to many people's surprise, this is NOT a young team. The Redskins rank 24th in that category with an avg. age of 26.53. But the youngest team, the Rams, avg. age is only about a year younger at 25.32. With less than 2 years between the oldest team (Chargers) and the youngest, this metric is BS. There is no such thing as an "old" or "young" team. However, our leaders and playmakers (Fletcher aside) are all young - RGIII, Morris, Garcon, Kerrigan + 3 young OL drafted that are not yet ready to start (normal for OL). The future looks good for this franchise, but we have to get over the hump.

Win and retool, win and retool. That is what FA has done to the game. We have cleaned out a lot of the trash, but in doing so have lost a couple diamonds along the way (Sean Taylor, Landry, ey now likely Orakpo & Carriker). The financial mismanagement of this team cannot be overstated as it is the root of all problems in a game of inches. All that said, our FO is now retooling year in, year out, and we are getting to where we need to be in the NFL. Capgate hurt like hell, and don't even kid yourself to think any team can overcome that type of disadvantage.

I agree with most of that, just not the highlighted portions. None of the "diamonds" lost had anything to do with cleaning out the trash. (well, maybe Landry ) And Morris has certainly not been a beast. Yes, he runs hard, but his YPC is nothing exciting, and he has made many rookie mistakes. I'm still convinced Royster would have put up far better numbers in the same situation, though he doesn't seem to be able to stay healthy.

FanofallthatisGibbs wrote:And no, to many people's surprise, this is NOT a young team. The Redskins rank 24th in that category with an avg. age of 26.53. But the youngest team, the Rams, avg. age is only about a year younger at 25.32. With less than 2 years between the oldest team (Chargers) and the youngest, this metric is BS

Wow, that's a great stat, I didn't know that

as many of you know, I am NOT a stats fan

I understand that it sounds like the same old, same old here but the reality is this franchise WAS in dire straits and it will take time to get over that

this FO has done a good job (MAYBE they could have done better ...) HOWEVER, like 'em or not, THIS FO is the ONLY shot we've got


the franchise now has a QB and there are other good things to point to - no matter how many games we win this season, there is NO WAY that anyone can convince most of us that we're not better off than we would be if we'd continued down the path with Snyder making decisions

The salary cap BS hurt the progress, but .... this franchise is better and is not far off from being very competitive


we may not be getting the all important W's but we are seeing some scoring and we do see some progress - well, most of us do

When i first heard we'd hired Shanahan i thought, "Perfect! He had a great offense in Denver but got fired because he couldn't get the defense figured out. Now he can come here where there's already a decent defense, fix our offense, and we'll be set!"

When i heard he had gotten rid of the defensive staff and wanted to install a new DC and scheme, i was very disappointed and worried. And now, for whatever reasons, he seems to be repeating his later history with the Broncos.

No, our old defense under Blache wasn't flashy, it didn't produce many turnovers or sacks, but it kept us in games despite an anemic offense. With that same defense now you have to think we'd be 3-0 and on our way to the playoffs.

I don't know what/who's to blame for this year's woes-- obviously it begins with the secondary, but how much of that weakness is because of poor personnel decisions (and if so, was it Haslett or Shanahan [or Allen] that made them?), or was this simply the best we could do because of the outrageous BS salary cap penalty the Giants owner got away with imposing upon us, his division rival? Maybe there was no way around this.
How much of it is poor coaching/scheming either in that area or in how to cope with and work around the player weaknesses? Maybe they are just so horrendous there is no way to work around it and this is the best we can possibly do.


All i know is i am angry because it would seem to me much of this mess, many of these questions about how to fix it, could've been avoided. Now Shanahan has to decide again whether to fire his DC and start over with a new one who will want new players for his scheme and go through rebuilding there all over again. Or stick it out and hope we get better results with better players, once we can actually afford them again. All i know is either way i want Mara to rot in hell.

die cowboys die wrote:When i first heard we'd hired Shanahan i thought, "Perfect! He had a great offense in Denver but got fired because he couldn't get the defense figured out. Now he can come here where there's already a decent defense, fix our offense, and we'll be set!"

When i heard he had gotten rid of the defensive staff and wanted to install a new DC and scheme, i was very disappointed and worried. And now, for whatever reasons, he seems to be repeating his later history with the Broncos.

No, our old defense under Blache wasn't flashy, it didn't produce many turnovers or sacks, but it kept us in games despite an anemic offense. With that same defense now you have to think we'd be 3-0 and on our way to the playoffs.

I don't know what/who's to blame for this year's woes-- obviously it begins with the secondary, but how much of that weakness is because of poor personnel decisions (and if so, was it Haslett or Shanahan [or Allen] that made them?), or was this simply the best we could do because of the outrageous BS salary cap penalty the Giants owner got away with imposing upon us, his division rival? Maybe there was no way around this.
How much of it is poor coaching/scheming either in that area or in how to cope with and work around the player weaknesses? Maybe they are just so horrendous there is no way to work around it and this is the best we can possibly do.


All i know is i am angry because it would seem to me much of this mess, many of these questions about how to fix it, could've been avoided. Now Shanahan has to decide again whether to fire his DC and start over with a new one who will want new players for his scheme and go through rebuilding there all over again. Or stick it out and hope we get better results with better players, once we can actually afford them again. All i know is either way i want Mara to rot in hell.

I don't think he has to start over, I think getting rid of Haslett would start a fire, a good one. I think the problem is two fold, the first being Haslett's inability to call good defensive plays and secondly his inability to come up with exotic blitzes that work. It seems that the weak link is our secondary but honestly when any half decent NFL QB has 5 to 6 seconds to read and react no cornerback can cover that long. Hell Revis wouldn't even be able to cover, so knowing that you bring pressure, you load the weakest side or part of the offensive line, you have your defensive lineman perform line stunts. But Haslett doesn't do that, his blitzes are delayed linebacker blitzes and often times they don't work cause they are studied and practiced on during the week. Just like there is game tape of offenses. There is game tape of defenses too and Haslett is predictable and past his prime. We need a younger aggressive defensive coordinator is isn't stuck in his ways like Haslett. Let's also add in the fact that Haslett was fired from New Orleans and St. Louis. No way he would succeed in the NFC East and anyone that simply doesn't see that nor understand that is a fool. We are 1-2 and heading to Tampa Bay, mark my words this time next week we will be 1-3 and I hope RG3 doesn't get hurt trying to do more than he should because Shanny isn't man enough to do what is needed and fire that under achieving ass clown. Haslett HAS TO GO AND GO NOW and stop expecting the secondary to cover recievers for 5 seconds a play! It WON'T HAPPEN!! Play aggresive man coverage and bring some exotic blitzes and knock the opposing teams QB on his ass. Then that makes him hurry make mistakes and only good things can happen when you get inside a QB's head!!!! If not Tampa's QB is going to look like Dan Marino next Sunday..........

First off, I'm as pissed about the defense as anyone.

Secondly, I'm not a huge Haslett fan, but I think he is a good coordinator and certainly capable of an above average defense. Top 5...not so much, but a solid 10-15 defense.

Thirdly, I'm a huge fan of the 3-4. You have better athletes on the field, but the 3-4 has less to do about the poor secondary than the poor secondary. The 3-4 is stopping the run like a champ. Top 10 in the league. The 3-4 is causing a ton of turnovers and points. We're tied for #1 In forced fumbles, #8 in interceptions, #2 in defensive points.

In conclusion, this is squarely on the DB's on the team. Knowing that we have a very good DB coach in Morris, it only solidifies my stance even more. I have heard Pat Kirwin on SiriusXM mention multiple times that we were in play for Cortland Finnegan, but then got slapped with the cap penalty. I absolutely think we would have got him. Without him, we have had to rely on mediocre talent, and two backups playing safety so far. The problem is very pinpointed here people. Get some better players and we're in business.

Add in that we lost Orakpo to cover up some of those deficiencies, and they are bit more glaring.

We're closer than you think.

i hope you're right, chiefhog. you make some good points there. this just makes me even more infuriated at Mora. it's unbelievable he sabotaged us like this and is just going to get away with it.

What i don't understand is why they seem so much worse than last year (weren't great by any means last year but not THIS bad) when it's most of the same guys back there?

die cowboys die wrote:What i don't understand is why they seem so much worse than last year (weren't great by any means last year but not THIS bad) when it's most of the same guys back there?

I'm going to review the coaches film tonight, but I would imagine that it has more to do with the QB's we've faced, the injuries/suspensions and the fact that we didn't have cap room to sign a CB. Had Hall been moved inside and to the bench in base, and we had picked up say Finnegan to play on the outside with Wilson, had Merriweather and Jackson playing safety, I really do not think this would have been a problem.

Instead, we have Griffen on the outside, and then tried to move Hall over as an adjustment. Again, i havent watched the film yet, so just a guess. IMO neither are good out there, so we play off a bit more which allows QBs that can get rid of the ball quickly to hit some short to intermediate routes under 2.5 seconds. We do not have the rushers to get to the QB in under that time...especially with Orakpo out. If we had a better corner out there, we would be able to force the QB to hold an extra half second which is a BIG difference in this league.

Last year, I believe we played Hall on the outside most of the time and he was better then what we have now. We also tried to get Barnes to play out there, and he failed. This weekend, they moved Hall out and tried Crawford inside and he got beat for a TD. I say let Wilson play without deep help, move Crawford to the outside, Hall to the inside and give safety help to Crawford until he gets the feel. Move Hall to the bench on base defense. I hate to say it, but the tall tight ends are killing Fletcher as well.