The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Countertrey wrote:

ICEMAN wrote: I know we are still upset about the 4th and 25 last year...but truthfully, it was a bad call by our D Coordinator, which exposed our lone D. Hall. It's all good!!

!!!

This is, simply, wrong. The play you note is merely the most glaring of the MULTIPLE examples where Hall got burned by an elite receiver who understood that Hall INVARIABLY bites on a good outside headfake, especially when Hall is maintaining inside position... because, that means he is looking for a route to jump.

There are times to take such a risk...

4th and 25, with the game in hand, and no help deep is NOT such a time. Hall is, indeed, high risk, high reward... on the other hand, Haslett's D requires a cornerback to actually think, from time to time. I love Hall's skillset... but his brain needs much work.

Look you can kill Hall for any number of plays where he got beat (there are plenty of them), but I wish purple would stop bringing up the one play that was absolutely not his fault. As long as Romo got time to get the ball off that was going to be a complete pass. Hall had no way of stopping the play. If he had had perfect coverage (which he didn't) the result of the play would have been the same.

4&25 is on Haslett; Hall deserves none of the blame blame! Pick on any number of the plays where Hall actually got not the one he was on a no win situation.

Countertrey wrote:

ICEMAN wrote: I know we are still upset about the 4th and 25 last year...but truthfully, it was a bad call by our D Coordinator, which exposed our lone D. Hall. It's all good!!

!!!

This is, simply, wrong. The play you note is merely the most glaring of the MULTIPLE examples where Hall got burned by an elite receiver who understood that Hall INVARIABLY bites on a good outside headfake, especially when Hall is maintaining inside position... because, that means he is looking for a route to jump.

There are times to take such a risk...

4th and 25, with the game in hand, and no help deep is NOT such a time. Hall is, indeed, high risk, high reward... on the other hand, Haslett's D requires a cornerback to actually think, from time to time. I love Hall's skillset... but his brain needs much work.

Look you can kill Hall for any number of plays where he got beat (there are plenty of them), but I wish purple would stop bringing up the one play that was absolutely not his fault. As long as Romo got time to get the ball off that was going to be a complete pass. Hall had no way of stopping the play. If he had had perfect coverage (which he didn't) the result of the play would have been the same.

4&25 is on Haslett; Hall deserves none of the blame blame! Pick on any number of the plays where Hall actually got not the one he was on a no win situation.

Hall absolutely deserves to be blown up, for failing to display very fundamental, sound cornerback play in that situation.

Haslett absolutely should have come out with a more conservative play... but, if Hall actually played as if he had a clue on that play, the game is over. Period.

Countertrey wrote:Hall absolutely deserves to be blown up, for failing to display very fundamental, sound cornerback play in that situation.

Haslett absolutely should have come out with a more conservative play... but, if Hall actually played as if he had a clue on that play, the game is over. Period.

that's it in a nutshell

it's not a play or a player or a coach or a play call

it's a team game - sometimes the combination of a play call and a decision by a player combine for a good or bad outcome

it happens

we win the game against the pukes (Brunell/Moss) - we should have lost this game

we lose the game to the pukes (Haslett/Hall) - we should have won this game

Hall can help this defense this season ... IF he uses his head

People always wonder why our drafted talent goes elsewhere and plays well.

People always wonder why in the past free agent talent came here and sucked.


I'll say, coaches aren't always right. Coaches aren't perfect and can be very stubborn. This team had layers upon layers of issues. Ownership, FO, Coaching, Training staff, facilities, scheme, players, depth.... Let's get real here.

Hall and many other players haven't and aren't always being used how they should be and it could be for many reasons. It could be because the surrounding cast doesn't allow the coach to use the player properly, or maybe the coach doesn't know how to use the player. Time will tell.

^^ - good point Chris - could not agree more

especially when you think about all the layers that have had to be addressed with this franchise over the past few years

just bringing in great players and great coaches is what Dumb & Dumber tried - what a disaster that was


we are still a franchise that is finding our way back to respectability

We have just added a key ingredient and a player we can build an offense around for years - finding all the right pieces and the right guys to coach and motivate them is critical

we're going to see some more progress but this franchise will have to endure some more growing pains before we see the full effect of what good planning and properly building a team can accomplish

Haslett is the DC but he's also doing what Mike wants - his players and coaches are doing what he wants them to do

Morris IMO can only help both the secondary and this defense - his expertise is getting more from his players

SkinsJock wrote:^^ - good point Chris - could not agree more

especially when you think about all the layers that have had to be addressed with this franchise over the past few years

Chris Luva Luva wrote:This team had layers upon layers of issues. Ownership, FO, Coaching, Training staff, facilities, scheme, players, depth.... Let's get real here.

THe only things left unchanged are the ownership. Mike Has had to come in and FIX EVERYTHING ELSE. That wasn't what he had in mind when he signed the contract. You don't quite know how much work a house needs till you're living in it.

SkinsJock wrote:just bringing in great players and great coaches is what Dumb & Dumber tried - what a disaster that was

They have to be great together. Or mesh well together. The FO has to supportive. It was never an entire group working towards a common goal.

Norv - Snyder screwed him over.
Marty - Snyder screwed him over.
Ball Coach - incompetent coach and FO
Gibbs - incompetent FO, training facilities, etc to aid a great coach. Gibbs was a bit dated in some regards but a good supporting FO would have made his transition easier and more successful.
Zorn - Snyder/FO screwed him over. Never had real respect.

And now we have Mike....

Mike - told Snyder to GTFO of my way and let me handle it. And he has methodically transformed this organization in ways that don't equate to Wins and Losses. Only blind, impatient and uninformed "fans" would state otherwise.

SkinsJock wrote:We have just added a key ingredient and a player we can build an offense around for years - finding all the right pieces and the right guys to coach and motivate them is critical

IMO, giving Mike the time to do it is more critical. Snyder must realize that his house was in complete disarray. Mike had to do more than he should have just to get back to zero, Snyder had this time in the negative.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:^^ - good point Chris - could not agree more

especially when you think about all the layers that have had to be addressed with this franchise over the past few years

Chris Luva Luva wrote:This team had layers upon layers of issues. Ownership, FO, Coaching, Training staff, facilities, scheme, players, depth.... Let's get real here.

THe only things left unchanged are the ownership. Mike Has had to come in and FIX EVERYTHING ELSE. That wasn't what he had in mind when he signed the contract. You don't quite know how much work a house needs till you're living in it.

SkinsJock wrote:just bringing in great players and great coaches is what Dumb & Dumber tried - what a disaster that was

They have to be great together. Or mesh well together. The FO has to supportive. It was never an entire group working towards a common goal.

Norv - Snyder screwed him over.
Marty - Snyder screwed him over.
Ball Coach - incompetent coach and FO
Gibbs - incompetent FO, training facilities, etc to aid a great coach. Gibbs was a bit dated in some regards but a good supporting FO would have made his transition easier and more successful.
Zorn - Snyder/FO screwed him over. Never had real respect.

And now we have Mike....

Mike - told Snyder to GTFO of my way and let me handle it. And he has methodically transformed this organization in ways that don't equate to Wins and Losses. Only blind, impatient and uninformed "fans" would state otherwise.

SkinsJock wrote:We have just added a key ingredient and a player we can build an offense around for years - finding all the right pieces and the right guys to coach and motivate them is critical

IMO, giving Mike the time to do it is more critical. Snyder must realize that his house was in complete disarray. Mike had to do more than he should have just to get back to zero, Snyder had this time in the negative.

Transforming the team in such a way that doesn't equate with wins and losses doesn't count for anything positive. Mike is still unproven here-- worse record than coaches we regard as duds, as well as blatantly unsound moves. If RG111 doesn't work out, Mike will be gone. Should be gone.

Countertrey wrote:Hall absolutely deserves to be blown up, for failing to display very fundamental, sound cornerback play in that situation.

Haslett absolutely should have come out with a more conservative play... but, if Hall actually played as if he had a clue on that play, the game is over. Period.

OK, I'm not getting through. There is no way any DB could have played that play and had it succeed. Nothing Hall could have done would have prevented a completion.

But obviouly some people don't agree. I'm OK ith that.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Norv - Snyder screwed him over.

I don't agree. Norv is not a HC. It was clear he is not a HC before Snyder got the team. His two HC jobs since Washington have been failures too.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Marty - Snyder screwed him over.

Completely agree, but he should never have been hired. No longer and NFL HC. Couldn't get an excellent San Diego team anywhere in the playoffs and got fired at 14-2 (never to be hired again).

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Ball Coach - incompetent coach and FO

Agreed

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Gibbs - incompetent FO, training facilities, etc to aid a great coach. Gibbs was a bit dated in some regards but a good supporting FO would have made his transition easier and more successful.

You do realise Gibbs was the head man in that incompetant FO? Gibbs "dated" system showed the most success in the last 20 years (1500 yard receiver (well close enough) and a 1500 yard rusher). The past 20 seasons the Skins have been to the playoffs four times. Gibbs was the coach of five of those 20 seasons and accounted for three of the playoff births. Gibbs 2.0 went two out of four seasons. Gibbs' playoff success just dwarfs all of the other coaches for those other 15 seasons.

That said, the FO was the problem and Gibbs was part of that FO. Gibbs' decission to hire Saunders after a playoff run was another big mistake.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Zorn - Snyder/FO screwed him over. Never had real respect.

Snyder let Vinnie hire Zorn, but never believed in him. That eventually got Vinnie fired (thank the gods!)

Chris Luva Luva wrote:And now we have Mike....

Mike - told Snyder to GTFO of my way and let me handle it. And he has methodically transformed this organization in ways that don't equate to Wins and Losses. Only blind, impatient and uninformed "fans" would state otherwise.

SkinsJock wrote:We have just added a key ingredient and a player we can build an offense around for years - finding all the right pieces and the right guys to coach and motivate them is critical

IMO, giving Mike the time to do it is more critical. Snyder must realize that his house was in complete disarray. Mike had to do more than he should have just to get back to zero, Snyder had this time in the negative.

Hopefully Mike get all the time he needs to build a winner. Hell if Norv can get seven season Mike should get as long as he needs.

crazyhorse1 wrote:.... Mike is still unproven here -- worse record than coaches we regard as duds, as well as blatantly unsound moves.
If RG111 doesn't work out, Mike will be gone. Should be gone.

Mike and a few others will be gone if RGIII does not become a good QB - agreed

That is just not happening - the only issue/question about RGIII is how good will he be - not, if he will be good

I doubt that even he achieves greatness in one season .... but he will in time

It will take time but it will be clear, this season, to everyone that this kid is a very special NFL player and QB

I agree with Chris - Mike needs time to get this franchise out of the huge hole Snyder had them in

Mike & Bruce are part way there - hopefully, all the parts can gel better this season - I think they do

we're about to see - 3 more months

skinsfan#33 wrote:

Countertrey wrote:Hall absolutely deserves to be blown up, for failing to display very fundamental, sound cornerback play in that situation.

Haslett absolutely should have come out with a more conservative play... but, if Hall actually played as if he had a clue on that play, the game is over. Period.

OK, I'm not getting through. There is no way any DB could have played that play and had it succeed. Nothing Hall could have done would have prevented a completion.

But obviouly some people don't agree. I'm OK ith that.

You are right... we don't agree. Hall played that pass for the pick, which is why he bit on the headfake. He was playing to undercut the route, get the pick. It was a Meangelo play, NOT a team play. He was swinging for the fences, when all we needed was for him to put the ball in play.

A competent, disciplined DB plays that to either knock the ball down, OR make a tackle short of the first down. In that game situation, he absolutely DOES NOT surrender his cushion until that receiver is approaching the first down marker, or the ball is in the air. He NEVER lets the reciever close the cushion, nor get behind him without the ball. Now, you tell me... did he do that?

crazyhorse1 wrote:
Transforming the team in such a way that doesn't equate with wins and losses doesn't count for anything positive. Mike is still unproven here-- worse record than coaches we regard as duds, as well as blatantly unsound moves. If RG111 doesn't work out, Mike will be gone. Should be gone.

Respectfully, I believe that stance is very narrow minded.

How anyone can not view any positivity in this regime isn't looking.

Practice bubble - positive
Improving strength/conditioning program - positive
The Draft - HUGE FREAKING IMPROVEMENT
Overall team age - Improved/positive

To actually comprehend the full scope of how bad this org was and to see the incremental improvements, you'd see a positive. I think some of us realize that change won't happen overnight, especially for a team as bad off as they were. Once/if he turns this thing around, everyone's gonna wanna act like they knew it'd happen.

And even if Mike doesn't, he's plugged so many holes in the ship that the next man that takes over can focus solely on Sundays ala Jim Harbaugh....

skinsfan#33 wrote:You do realize Gibbs was the head man in that incompetant FO?

IMHO, he was a figure head. At the root, it was the same show and shenanigans at a FO level.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Marty - Snyder screwed him over.

Completely agree, but he should never have been hired. No longer and NFL HC. Couldn't get an excellent San Diego team anywhere in the playoffs and got fired at 14-2 (never to be hired again).

[/quote]

Never should have been hired?? Good grief look at the Chargers' freaking records leading up to his hiring. 4-12, 5-11, 8-8, 1-15, 5-11. All Marty did was assemble that excellent team and coach them to their best ever record of 14-2. I realize he lost in the playoffs that year. Unfortunately for him the Patriots were pretty good then too.

The Marty year here in DC is the one that really burns me up. I think he was trying to do then what Shanny is doing now which was put together a professional football team and run it properly. Snyder's impatience and ignorance in firing him so quickly really set us back IMHO. I think our team history would be a LOT different if he had stuck with Marty.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Marty - Snyder screwed him over.

Completely agree, but he should never have been hired. No longer and NFL HC. Couldn't get an excellent San Diego team anywhere in the playoffs and got fired at 14-2 (never to be hired again).

Totally disagree with the highlighted. He was the one that got them to 14-2. And he retired after being fired, which is why he hasn't been hired again.

pay attention now

It takes more than just players and coaches

Marty was not going to continue here because he knew he could not get it done with Snyder in charge - Snyder was not leaving

Mike was not coming in here with Snyder in charge - even then I think he was stunned to realize how bad things were

the reason it is taking a great HC & a good GM so long to turn things around is because of the mess that Snyder & co had got this franchise into

we're getting there but it takes time

Deadskins wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Marty - Snyder screwed him over.

Completely agree, but he should never have been hired. No longer and NFL HC. Couldn't get an excellent San Diego team anywhere in the playoffs and got fired at 14-2 (never to be hired again).

Totally disagree with the highlighted. He was the one that got them to 14-2. And he retired after being fired, which is why he hasn't been hired again.

No he didn't! What ever gave you that idea? His name kept coming back up during coaching searches. And if he was retired, why did he take the HC job of some UFL Virginia Destroyers.

riggofan wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Marty - Snyder screwed him over.

Completely agree, but he should never have been hired. No longer and NFL HC. Couldn't get an excellent San Diego team anywhere in the playoffs and got fired at 14-2 (never to be hired again).

Never should have been hired?? Good grief look at the Chargers' freaking records leading up to his hiring. 4-12, 5-11, 8-8, 1-15, 5-11. All Marty did was assemble that excellent team and coach them to their best ever record of 14-2. I realize he lost in the playoffs that year. Unfortunately for him the Patriots were pretty good then too.

The Marty year here in DC is the one that really burns me up. I think he was trying to do then what Shanny is doing now which was put together a professional football team and run it properly. Snyder's impatience and ignorance in firing him so quickly really set us back IMHO. I think our team history would be a LOT different if he had stuck with Marty.[/quote]

I can't disagree with anything you said and I still think he should have never been hired. He is a great regular season HC, one of the best, but a horrendous playoff coach. That is why I didn't want him hired.

riggofan wrote: .... The Marty year here in DC is the one that really burns me up. I think he was trying to do then what Shanny is doing now which was put together a professional football team and run it properly. Snyder's impatience and ignorance in firing him so quickly really set us back IMHO. I think our team history would be a LOT different if he had stuck with Marty.

I cannot agree - I do think that Marty is a very good HC but that was not going to help much here
- short term, maybe .. but not if you have people like Dumb & Dumber in charge

You have to have management, coaching and player acquisition, by people that know what they're doing

Marty was only a very good coach - that is not enough





sing with me people "we are very, very lucky to finally have a FO and HC that know what they are doing"


this train is bound for glory now, this train

and Marty is not as good a HC as Mike

SkinsJock wrote:I do think that Marty is a very good HC but that was not going to help much here
- short term, maybe .. but not if you have people like Dumb & Dumber in charge

What? The first thing Marty did was fire Dumber, and he was fired himself because he wouldn't let Dumb make football decisions (at least that's what HAILSkins says Marty said was the reason for his firing, I've always thought is was because The Danny wanted to light up the scoreboard with Spurrier's fun 'n' gun ).

SkinsJock wrote:and Marty is not as good a HC as Mike

That's debatable.

Countertrey wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

Countertrey wrote:Hall absolutely deserves to be blown up, for failing to display very fundamental, sound cornerback play in that situation.

Haslett absolutely should have come out with a more conservative play... but, if Hall actually played as if he had a clue on that play, the game is over. Period.

OK, I'm not getting through. There is no way any DB could have played that play and had it succeed. Nothing Hall could have done would have prevented a completion.

But obviouly some people don't agree. I'm OK ith that.

You are right... we don't agree. Hall played that pass for the pick, which is why he bit on the headfake. He was playing to undercut the route, get the pick. It was a Meangelo play, NOT a team play. He was swinging for the fences, when all we needed was for him to put the ball in play.

A competent, disciplined DB plays that to either knock the ball down, OR make a tackle short of the first down. In that game situation, he absolutely DOES NOT surrender his cushion until that receiver is approaching the first down marker, or the ball is in the air. He NEVER lets the reciever close the cushion, nor get behind him without the ball. Now, you tell me... did he do that?

You still don't get it do you? It doesn't matter how Hall played the play. With out safety help all Romo had to do was throw the bad to the opposites side of Bryant from wherever Hall ended up. He did that.

The only way Hall could have prevented the play was by doing exactly what you said he shouldn't have done. He jumped the route. That was the only chance he had. The pass rush should have been there when Bryant settled down in the zone. It didn't get there so Bryant turned up field.

There is no way Hall makes the play in that situation with out gambling. He gambled based on when the rush should have been there. The rush didn't get there.

If Hall had played the play the way you suggested it still would have been a completed pass for a first down.

Countertrey wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

Countertrey wrote:Hall absolutely deserves to be blown up, for failing to display very fundamental, sound cornerback play in that situation.

Haslett absolutely should have come out with a more conservative play... but, if Hall actually played as if he had a clue on that play, the game is over. Period.

OK, I'm not getting through. There is no way any DB could have played that play and had it succeed. Nothing Hall could have done would have prevented a completion.

But obviouly some people don't agree. I'm OK ith that.

You are right... we don't agree. Hall played that pass for the pick, which is why he bit on the headfake. He was playing to undercut the route, get the pick. It was a Meangelo play, NOT a team play. He was swinging for the fences, when all we needed was for him to put the ball in play.

A competent, disciplined DB plays that to either knock the ball down, OR make a tackle short of the first down. In that game situation, he absolutely DOES NOT surrender his cushion until that receiver is approaching the first down marker, or the ball is in the air. He NEVER lets the reciever close the cushion, nor get behind him without the ball. Now, you tell me... did he do that?

You still don't get it do you? It doesn't matter how Hall played the play. With out safety help all Romo had to do was throw the bad to the opposites side of Bryant from wherever Hall ended up. He did that.

The only way Hall could have prevented the play was by doing exactly what you said he shouldn't have done. He jumped the route. That was the only chance he had. The pass rush should have been there when Bryant settled down in the zone. It didn't get there so Bryant turned up field.

There is no way Hall makes the play in that situation with out gambling. He gambled based on when the rush should have been there. The rush didn't get there.

If Hall had played the play the way you suggested it still would have been a completed pass for a first down.

I get it fine... and I know who doesn't...

If the skills of a competent cover corner had been available (Carlos Rogers, for example), that pass lands on the ground. Hall's job was to keep the play in front of him, and react when the ball was in the air. Fail.