The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

1niksder wrote:My understanding is ....They need to have it prior to the draft, but the thing is with the way rookies are slotted now, they'll only need about $5M to cover the picks. Once they are drafted and signed the rule of 51 kicks back in.

Prior to the draft it's Rule of 51 + rookie pool.

This is a good explanation of how it is set up

1Nik,

I read the whole thing and it never said anything about having to have the rookie pool cap space available at the begining of the draft. I did find a part really interesting:

"By way of example, in 2011, let’s assume that a Team X had a rookie pool of $4.578M for their 8 draft picks. This is the team’s “rookie salary pool” and is based on the number of the team’s draft picks and where those picks were drafted.

However this doesn’t mean that Team X needed $4.578M in Cap space in order to fit their rookies under the overall Salary Cap."

In fact it led me to believe that you really don't know what your rookie cap pool could be until after you make all of your draft selections and you may not need that entire amount of cap space until opening day.

1niksder wrote:

riggofan wrote:

Deadskins wrote: They have more info than we do on the process. I'm thinking the hearings may have already taken place, and they are awaiting the ruling.

Well that is clearly wrong. Its all over the news today that the arbitration date is set for "sometime in May".

Redskins to have hearing in May

Will take place before Stephen Burbank on May 10

skinsfan#33 wrote:

1niksder wrote:My understanding is ....They need to have it prior to the draft, but the thing is with the way rookies are slotted now, they'll only need about $5M to cover the picks. Once they are drafted and signed the rule of 51 kicks back in.

Prior to the draft it's Rule of 51 + rookie pool.

This is a good explanation of how it is set up

1Nik,

I read the whole thing and it never said anything about having to have the rookie pool cap space available at the begining of the draft. I did find a part really interesting:

"By way of example, in 2011, let’s assume that a Team X had a rookie pool of $4.578M for their 8 draft picks. This is the team’s “rookie salary pool” and is based on the number of the team’s draft picks and where those picks were drafted.

However this doesn’t mean that Team X needed $4.578M in Cap space in order to fit their rookies under the overall Salary Cap."

In fact it led me to believe that you really don't know what your rookie cap pool could be until after you make all of your draft selections and you may not need that entire amount of cap space until opening day.

Again the salaries are slotted and structured....

7 draft picks at $390k per = $2,730,000 for base salaries....

Bonus money =$4,110,000

Pick #2 - $14.5M or $3,625,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #69 - $700K or $175,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #102 - $460K or $115,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #109 - $452K or $113,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #141 - $172K or $43,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #173 - $96K or $24,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #213 - $60K or $15,000 on 2012 Cap

Total $6.8M

1niksder wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

1niksder wrote:My understanding is ....They need to have it prior to the draft, but the thing is with the way rookies are slotted now, they'll only need about $5M to cover the picks. Once they are drafted and signed the rule of 51 kicks back in.

Prior to the draft it's Rule of 51 + rookie pool.

This is a good explanation of how it is set up

1Nik,

I read the whole thing and it never said anything about having to have the rookie pool cap space available at the begining of the draft. I did find a part really interesting:

"By way of example, in 2011, let’s assume that a Team X had a rookie pool of $4.578M for their 8 draft picks. This is the team’s “rookie salary pool” and is based on the number of the team’s draft picks and where those picks were drafted.

However this doesn’t mean that Team X needed $4.578M in Cap space in order to fit their rookies under the overall Salary Cap."

In fact it led me to believe that you really don't know what your rookie cap pool could be until after you make all of your draft selections and you may not need that entire amount of cap space until opening day.

Again the salaries are slotted and structured....

7 draft picks at $390k per = $2,730,000 for base salaries....

Bonus money =$4,110,000

Pick #2 - $14.5M or $3,625,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #69 - $700K or $175,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #102 - $460K or $115,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #109 - $452K or $113,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #141 - $172K or $43,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #173 - $96K or $24,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #213 - $60K or $15,000 on 2012 Cap

Total $6.8M

But what about his point that we might decide to trade some of those picks away? Wouldn't that cap space not be determined until after the draft is complete?

Deadskins wrote:

1niksder wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote: 1Nik,

I read the whole thing and it never said anything about having to have the rookie pool cap space available at the begining of the draft. I did find a part really interesting:
In fact it led me to believe that you really don't know what your rookie cap pool could be until after you make all of your draft selections and you may not need that entire amount of cap space until opening day.

Again the salaries are slotted and structured....

7 draft picks at $390k per = $2,730,000 for base salaries....

Bonus money =$4,110,000

Pick #2 - $14.5M or $3,625,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #69 - $700K or $175,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #102 - $460K or $115,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #109 - $452K or $113,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #141 - $172K or $43,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #173 - $96K or $24,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #213 - $60K or $15,000 on 2012 Cap

Total $6.8M

But what about his point that we might decide to trade some of those picks away? Wouldn't that cap space not be determined until after the draft is complete?

The space needed is for picks held prior to the draft. Let's look at that anyway....

Trading down would lower the space needed to cover lower picks, moving up may cost a little more but again the pool is almost always more than what is needed. Last year the Redskins came out of the draft with almost twice as many picks as they had going in but the pool covered it. It is cap space needed in addition to the top 51 players, trading a player for picks would result in freeing up cap space and adding a pick that more than likely won't be in the top 51.

Trading picks for players are different as the player more than likely won't be a incoming rookie, and only lessen money that will come out of the pool.

Trades made prior to the draft will change the pool number... prior to moving up to #2 I was thinking the pool would be around $7.5M

riggofan wrote: .. Fortunately for everyone your paranoia is massively misguided.

"paranoid" and "massively misguided" = I think you've mistaken me for someone that gives a rat's ass

I have faith in this FO handling this

.. besides .. from all accounts this is just a pain in the butt - we are going to be fine no matter what the arbitrator rules

I don't expect anything - I'm certainly not paranoid about it and am not going to let myself be massively misguided

1niksder wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

1niksder wrote:My understanding is ....They need to have it prior to the draft, but the thing is with the way rookies are slotted now, they'll only need about $5M to cover the picks. Once they are drafted and signed the rule of 51 kicks back in.

Prior to the draft it's Rule of 51 + rookie pool.

This is a good explanation of how it is set up

1Nik,

I read the whole thing and it never said anything about having to have the rookie pool cap space available at the begining of the draft. I did find a part really interesting:

"By way of example, in 2011, let’s assume that a Team X had a rookie pool of $4.578M for their 8 draft picks. This is the team’s “rookie salary pool” and is based on the number of the team’s draft picks and where those picks were drafted.

However this doesn’t mean that Team X needed $4.578M in Cap space in order to fit their rookies under the overall Salary Cap."

In fact it led me to believe that you really don't know what your rookie cap pool could be until after you make all of your draft selections and you may not need that entire amount of cap space until opening day.

Again the salaries are slotted and structured....

7 draft picks at $390k per = $2,730,000 for base salaries....

Bonus money =$4,110,000

Pick #2 - $14.5M or $3,625,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #69 - $700K or $175,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #102 - $460K or $115,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #109 - $452K or $113,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #141 - $172K or $43,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #173 - $96K or $24,000 on 2012 Cap
Pick #213 - $60K or $15,000 on 2012 Cap

Total $6.8M

This doesn't jive with what the article said. They said that the base salaries essentially don't count until opening day because they are usually below the top 51. The only thing that counts is the prorated portion of the bonus.

And again the Skin may only make one draft pick this year (highly doubtful - but ask mike ditka about ricki williams). So it doesn't seam correct that they will need all 6.5M in cap space. But if I read the article is right they would only need the $4.1M to cover bonuses.

The Hogster wrote:Beck, Doughty & Gaffney = gone.

Restructure Hall

+1

DarthMonk

skinsfan#33 wrote:
This doesn't jive with what the article said. They said that the base salaries essentially don't count until opening day because they are usually below the top 51. The only thing that counts is the prorated portion of the bonus.

And again the Skin may only make one draft pick this year (highly doubtful - but ask mike ditka about ricki williams). So it doesn't seam correct that they will need all 6.5M in cap space. But if I read the article is right they would only need the $4.1M to cover bonuses.

Base Salaries don't count until the start of the league year but the league year started on March 13th. The Rule of 51 considers the overall cap hit a player's contract totals (which includes base salary, prorated signing bonuses and other bonuses paid) that year.

The Rookie Pool is the money needed to sign all of the teams picks. It's set by some formula with a min and a max, again see last season's draft. It was the first year of the rookie pool, it's really a rookie cap that didn't take into consideration that a team would take 6 picks and turn them into 12 selections. The pool amount wasn't adjusted.

Yes all of the picks prorated bonus for 2012 will count against the cap but so will some of the picks base salaries.

If they only draft one player it will be at the #69 spot, but his base salary + pro-rated SB would be high enough to move the player up to about number 40 under the rule of 51. Both of the teams 4th round picks will be paid enough to be in the top 45 under the rule of 51. At the same time guys like M White, C Neild, Willie Smith, and Mo Hurt have base salaries that still won't impact the cap under the rule of 51 this year other than the pro rate money.

The needs the space for the rookie pool before the draft, once they meet that requirement, they can turn into the Bucs and lowball all of their rookies. But they can't max out everybody because they have a set amount they can use.

Like the link says (without saying)... it's a cap within a cap, but not really.


Remember my reply to your first question...

1niksder wrote:My understanding is ....They need to have it prior to the draft, but the thing is with the way rookies are slotted now, they'll only need about $5M to cover the picks. Once they are drafted and signed the rule of 51 kicks back in.

Prior to the draft it's Rule of 51 + rookie pool.

This is a good explanation of how it is set up

SkinsJock wrote:

riggofan wrote:.. besides .. from all accounts this is just a pain in the butt - we are going to be fine no matter what the arbitrator rules

Uh, okay. But we'll be a lot better if the arbitrator rules in our favor and restores our cap space than if he upholds the penalty.

1niksder wrote:
They need the space for the rookie pool before the draft, once they meet that requirement, they can turn into the Bucs and lowball all of their rookies. But they can't max out everybody because they have a set amount they can use.

Like the link says (without saying)... it's a cap within a cap, but not really.


Remember my reply to your first question...

1niksder wrote:My understanding is ....They need to have it prior to the draft, but the thing is with the way rookies are slotted now, they'll only need about $5M to cover the picks. Once they are drafted and signed the rule of 51 kicks back in.

Prior to the draft it's Rule of 51 + rookie pool.

This is a good explanation of how it is set up

Now we have this

“The problem, as the source explained it, comes from the original calculations that would have put this year’s salary cap as low as $113 million per team. When the NFL and NFLPA agreed to bump the 2012 cap to $120.6 million per team, the NFL and the NFLPA didn’t include within the agreement the rookie pool.

“Last year’s rookie pool was based on a per-team cap of $120.375 million.”

The league forgot about the Rookie pool when they decided to screw the Skins and ttiT, so they're not sure what the pool will be or who to screw to bump it up. There is a good chance the pool won't be set until after the draft. How that will work is a mystery to me but I'm guessing there will be less space needed to meet the number that they come out with and Gaffney may still be on the roster after the draft.

The pool my be 6% less than the numbers I had

SkinsJock wrote:

riggofan wrote:.. besides .. from all accounts this is just a pain in the butt - we are going to be fine no matter what the arbitrator rules

Uh, okay. But we'll be a lot better if the arbitrator rules in our favor and restores our cap space than if he upholds the penalty.

I give up

the arbitrator is NOT doing anything until May - the draft is next week

I'd love to have this BS decision changed - I HIGHLY doubt that the FO is planning on that

This FO will manage THIS situation .... thankfully we have a good FO ... finally