Why not Do it Again....WRs.. Who stays - Who goes?

[andyjens89]

Stays:
Moss
Gaffney
Garcon
Morgan
Hankerson
Paul

Goes:

Everyone else

Plus we will be getting ey and Davis back. I like how it's looking right now. Armstrong was decent, but I don't think he makes the team. Austin, Robinson, and Banks are all short, fast guys, but if Moss is healthy and Garcon is as good as the coaches think he is, then we don't really need them. It will be interesting to see if they draft another WR in the later rounds to add some more competition.

Paul is a solid special teamer and blocker so he makes the team. The other guys make it by default, in my opinion.

[rskin72]

We kept a lot of receivers at beginning of last season....recall 7. I would expect same number this season due to nature of our offense.

Some of the numbers last season WRT receiving corp are skewed as we had the 28th ranked passer throwing balls. While I am not going to compare our rookie QB to Brady or Manning, my point would be that given an accurate passer who can throw a deep ball (either Luck or RGIII), this will only lead to our receivers looking better and having more opportunities to make plays.

Concur with most folks in that our two new receivers will be among 7 I think we will keep. Hard to cut Gaffney with his production last season, so would keep him. I like Moss, and think he will be on the team next season....but to be honest, I saw Moss make some drops last season that were uncharateristic.....specifically one in Rams game that lead to an interception, went right through his hands, then there was the push off penalty at end of Pats game. I do concur that, outside of the TE's, we have never really had anyone else that would scare opposition so that made life more difficult for Moss.

Beyond those, Hankerson will depend on return from his injury, but pretty sure he will stay this season. I like AA, and would like to see him get a chance with a good QB throwing to him.....

Don't recall seeing much of Niles Paul (2 receptions) or Terrence Austin (12 Receptions) last season...but if height is a concern, Paul is listed at 6'1" and Austin at 5'11". Stallworth is gone.

Banks, while potentially explosive, also makes some bonehead decisions on when to run the ball after a kick-off. Worries me also that he is so darn small. I don't see, however, any other kick returners yet on the team.....Royal would have been a potential but he signed with SD. One other thing with Banks, I know there were times when opposition kicked away from him, so put a bit of a scare in some teams on returns.

[1niksder]

:D
Some of you understand the title of this thread the rest of you will figure it out.

For Redskins, plenty of competition at wide receiver by Rich Tandler

Although there is plenty of time for more additions and subtractions can be made from the Redskins receiver corps, the pause button seems to have been hit for the time being, so let’s take a look at who stands where.

The one sure starter right now is Pierre Garçon. By virtue of his $8 million per year contract, he will be given every opportunity to establish himself as the top receiver on the team, if not a true No. 1 receiver.

It also seems Jabar Gaffney, last year’s leading receiver, will keep his starting job. Although at age 31 his presence would run counter to the youth movement afoot in Ashburn, his experience and ability to work the field in Kyle Shanahan’s offense will be of great help while a rookie quarterback, presumably Robert Griffin III, gets his feet under him.

After that, the picture isn’t quite as clear. It would appear Leonard Hankerson will get the first shot at having a substantial role, assuming he is recovered from the hip injury that ended his 2011 season before it really got started. Hankerson has said he will be ready for training camp, but athletes frequently are more optimistic about recovering from injuries than medical reality would indicate. It’s wait and see on him until we get closer to camp.
Free-agent acquisition Joshua Morgan is also recovering from a season-ending injury. He broke his ankle in the fifth game of 2011. Morgan’s contract, which calls for him to make $12 million over two years, shows he is expected to make a substantial contribution as well. He provides some insurance in case Hankerson is not ready to go.

We’ve covered five receivers, and we’re just getting to Santana Moss, the mainstay of the team’s wide receiving corps since he came to Washington in 2005. He has played in 104 games for the Redskins, and he has started 104. Will he be a starter in 2012? Will he be on the team at all? Even if you factor in that he missed four games with a broken hand, 2012 was his least productive season since he was a Jet in 2002. It might be tempting to write him off, as he will be 33 before the season starts, but it may be too soon to do that.

We wrote earlier this week here that Anthony Armstrong could benefit greatly from the presence of Griffin, who has uncanny accuracy on the deep ball. If he can average nearly 20 yards per catch like he did in 2010 they will find a way to get him onto the field.

It’s not a make or break year for Niles Paul, but the second-year player should make some strides in OTAs and in training camp to solidify his spot on the roster. He only caught two passes last year, but he only was targeted five times in 162 snaps. His blocking got him on the field on offense, and he needs to continue to improve upon his strength while working on his weak areas.

Is this the end of the line for Terrence Austin? With the additions of Garçon and Morgan, somebody has to go. The 2010 seventh-round pick has shown flashes of ability here and there but never with any consistency.

Brandon Banks didn’t work much as a receiver in training camp due to a knee injury, and he made the team as a return specialist. There may not be a roster spot for such a player in 2012, so Banks might have to find a way to get some snaps at wide receiver or face getting cut.

Aldrick Robinson was on the roster for one game after spending most of the year on the practice squad. He has speed, but his game needs refinement.

So we have 10 wide receivers for probably six spots. With Garçon, Gaffney, Morgan and Hankerson safe, that leaves six fighting for two jobs. And more could potentially be added later in free agency or in the draft.

Lets Go with 6, 7 max although they did have 10 on the roster at some points last season. If you think they'll draft a rookie that will make the roster then leave a spot for him blank in your list of 6-7, same for another free agent WR..

WHO STAYS and WHO GOES?

The same pure nonsense about Banks. He'll make it as a returner or not at all. Shanny's not even thinking about his being a receiver.

So state who you think will stay and who goes... We need your opinion not your opinion of someone else's opinion.

If you don't have one state that...

If you would rather wait until the final cuts, that's OK too.

But have a opinion of your own. It's not that hard... for most people anyway

[The Hogster]

I think we discussed this ad nauseum last year. The 6th & 7th Wide Receivers are generally Special Teams players and not much more.

With that being said, Banks' contributions as a returner outweigh the benefit of a 6th or 7th WR who is merely a gunner, or a guy who stands behind the pile on a Field Goal attempt.

[Deadskins]

Brandon Banks is not in competition with the WRs

This is true in a way, but actually he is because some of the receivers are competing with him for return duties. And that one of the receivers is a special teams player is typically why teams would carry six receivers. They don't usually carry six..plus...a special teamer. I seriously doubt we need six plus a special teamer as well, we're not getting six guys regular action. I'm not saying Banks won't make it because of special teams, I'm pointing out your statement is only partially true.

I do agree though that Gaffney is on the bubble.

Didn't we keep seven plus Banks last year?

[KazooSkinsFan]

Brandon Banks is not in competition with the WRs

This is true in a way, but actually he is because some of the receivers are competing with him for return duties. And that one of the receivers is a special teams player is typically why teams would carry six receivers. They don't usually carry six..plus...a special teamer. I seriously doubt we need six plus a special teamer as well, we're not getting six guys regular action. I'm not saying Banks won't make it because of special teams, I'm pointing out your statement is only partially true.

I do agree though that Gaffney is on the bubble.

Didn't we keep seven plus Banks last year?

I thought it was seven including Banks, but if you're saying it was seven plus him I'm not calling you a liar.

And what a waste it was, we still only got regular production from two. Though that was improvement over the several years before that we only got regular production from one...

[skinsfan#33]

Anthony Armstrong will make a comeback if RGIII's deep ball Accuracy translates to the NFL.

Rex isnt accurate deep, nor does he have the arm strength to lead the receiver. AA's off season had a lot to do with Rex.

I'm tired of waiting for him to learn how to catch.

Just so you know he officially had zero drops last year!

Now he only caught 7 passes out of the 27 targets, but stats inc (official nfl stats) said he dropped no balls!

The official NFL stats for drops are worse than useless. You have to rely on other game charters for that information.

No, they are not! Every player is graded on the same scale w/o fan colored glasses messing with your prescription.

Now could there be better stats out thee that grade a wr on percentage of catches made when compared to balls that could have possibly been caught. I have never seen them and would love it if you would share if you know where you can find something like that.

Look I know the official stats only count balls that were clearly dropped and don't count an incomplete pass that could have been caught if the WR made a really good play. I have heard many fans say some one dropped a catch when the ball was thrown behind the player and into coverage where the db had just as much chance to catch the ball a the wr. Most "drops" fans blame on a wr aren't drops at all they are bad throws or good defensive plays.

[skinsfan#33]

Stays

Predict Gaffney will be a cap casualty, especially if we get no relief from this cap penalty.

Hogster,
I hope you aren't correct on this. If you are then we didn't get any better at WR in the off season, we simply got younger and more expensive. If we trade Garcon for Gafney we trade one player that costs less (Gaffney) for a player with virtually IDENTICLE production to a younger player that costs a lot more.

Now if we plan on having Gaffney, Moss, and Garcon on the field at the same time we defiantly got better. J Morgan is probably an improvement over AAA, but I'm not so sure. I think he is, but the year AAA had with McRib (a qb that can extend the play and get the ball down field) would be fantastic from a #4 or#5 WR.

To me if you are trying to win next year Garcon, Gaffney, Moss are your starters. With Hankerson, Morgan, and AAA getting worked into the rotation.

If they are looking more at how you will be in 2013 then I would start Hankerson, Garcon, and Gaffney (in the slot) and you let Moss go. In this set up Morgan would get a lot of playing time too. AAA would get cut and Austin or Paul would makes the team.

[Irn-Bru]

No, they are not! Every player is graded on the same scale w/o fan colored glasses messing with your prescription.

Oh, so at least they are consistent. Still, being consistently bad isn't good enough for me.

Look I know the official stats only count balls that were clearly dropped and don't count an incomplete pass that could have been caught if the WR made a really good play. I have heard many fans say some one dropped a catch when the ball was thrown behind the player and into coverage where the db had just as much chance to catch the ball a the wr. Most "drops" fans blame on a wr aren't drops at all they are bad throws or good defensive plays.

The drop stats are super conservative, and it's just not true that "most" other drops aren't drops at all. This has nothing to do with fan-colored glasses.

[skinsfan#33]

No, they are not! Every player is graded on the same scale w/o fan colored glasses messing with your prescription.

Oh, so at least they are consistent. Still, being consistently bad isn't good enough for me.

Look I know the official stats only count balls that were clearly dropped and don't count an incomplete pass that could have been caught if the WR made a really good play. I have heard many fans say some one dropped a catch when the ball was thrown behind the player and into coverage where the db had just as much chance to catch the ball a the wr. Most "drops" fans blame on a wr aren't drops at all they are bad throws or good defensive plays.

The drop stats are super conservative, and it's just not true that "most" other drops aren't drops at all. This has nothing to do with fan-colored glasses. How much would you like to bet that the stats teams keep on their own receivers don't match up with the official ones at all, and in fact are much harsher on the players?

Right now the NFL isn't interested in advancing the stats they collect, so they are sticking with only extremely obvious drops — they leave out a huge number of incomplete passes that could reasonably be attributed to the WR. So what you are left with isn't necessarily a good indicator of how likely a receiver was to drop a ball thrown to him. That's why I say "worse than useless"; they actually can be misleading.

Ok, so what do you use? As far as I know they are the only unbiased stats available.

[Irn-Bru]

Ok, so what do you use? As far as I know they are the only unbiased stats available.

Well, whether a dropped ball is the WRs fault is always a judgment call, so I'd argue that there are no "unbiased" stats if by "unbiased" you mean everyone could always agree on them.

When I'm researching drops I like to look at as many game charters and I can find who cover them. Sometimes my favorite stat sites, who we've already talked about in the past, cite them — though they don't currently keep records of them every year. With a little googling I see names I recognize from past research (Pro Football Focus).

But I don't dislike the official NFL stats on drops because I have a better source for drops, even though it's true I'd rather use other game charters. It's that I think relying on drop stats in general, at least right now, is troublesome. Anthony Armstrong is the perfect example for why. You really think his hands weren't responsible for any of the incompletes that came his direction last year?

[KazooSkinsFan]

I'm tired of waiting for him to learn how to catch.

The official NFL stats for drops are worse than useless. You have to rely on other game charters for that information.

No, they are not!

You seriously don't think AA has an issue with drops? It's not a question, he does. I watch the games. So apparently do a lot of other people in this thread. Ray's defending him and explaining the drops, not denying them. If you're seriously denying it, you're just being silly. Remember the time he dropped the same pass on the same play twice in a row in the end zone? The guy is Mr. 50/50. He'll alternate spectacular plays with just horrible drops.

[Irn-Bru]

You seriously don't think AA has an issue with drops? It's not a question, he does. I watch the games.

Apparently that can only be your fan-colored glasses talking!

[KazooSkinsFan]

You seriously don't think AA has an issue with drops? It's not a question, he does. I watch the games.

Apparently that can only be your fan-colored glasses talking!

I didn't quite get that. Wouldn't fan colored mean I'm biased for the Skins, not against them?

[crazyhorse1]

You seriously don't think AA has an issue with drops? It's not a question, he does. I watch the games.

Apparently that can only be your fan-colored glasses talking!

I think I've seen all of AA's drops and most of them weren't--they were tough plays that, frankly, Moss wouldn't have made. His hands are fine. He's a talent, held back by Rex, so far. I don't know if he'll make the team but there's no way someone like Paul and some of the others should beat him out, unless age is an issue. My top few: Moss, Garcon, Hankerson, Gafney, AA, Morgan. Banks as kick returner.

[KazooSkinsFan]

You seriously don't think AA has an issue with drops? It's not a question, he does. I watch the games.

Apparently that can only be your fan-colored glasses talking!

I think I've seen all of AA's drops and most of them weren't--they were tough plays that, frankly, Moss wouldn't have made. His hands are fine. He's a talent, held back by Rex, so far. I don't know if he'll make the team but there's no way someone like Paul and some of the others should beat him out, unless age is an issue. My top few: Moss, Garcon, Hankerson, Gafney, AA, Morgan. Banks as kick returner.

Paul's advantage would be special teams.

[skinsfan#33]

You seriously don't think AA has an issue with drops? It's not a question, he does. I watch the games.

Apparently that can only be your fan-colored glasses talking!

No it is his opinion, based on a bias that our WRs aren't any good. I was trying to take opinion out of the equation, but you said my stats were worse than useless. So I asked for a better source of stats that would better support your argument, but either there isn't any or you just felt making jokes was a better way of countering the official stats.

Look I understand that official drops are ultra conservative and they reflect catches the player should have made and not the catches they could have made.

You think AAA has a problem not catching balls he could have caught. I don't remember him having a problem with that. But he got so few opportunities (only 27 targets in 2011) that maybe it just didn't stand out to me!

I never said you were wrong. I nearly pointed out that officially he had no drops! Usually, the number of official drops does correlate and gives an indication of how many passes a player dropped that he could have caught. However, with a sample size so small (27 targets) that might not be accurate. But if there are stats on the "could have caught" drops, then I would genuinely like to know where I could find them.

By fan colored glasses I meant two things. One, you probably watch more Skins games than other games (percentage wise) so you would notice more "drops" by our receivers. Two, your are apt to call a tough catch that could haves been caught, but probably shouldn't have been caught, a drop. This is only natural since you have an emotional investment in the team. It is real hard to have an objective view, when you are emotionally invested in a play.

[Skeletor]

This a classic offseason thread. But a lot will depend on what happens in camp. Will hank be ready to go or does he start on the pup list... Do all receivers make it through healthy... And perhaps most important of all, who develops a good rapport with the new qb.

Armstrong worked great with mcnabb but not so great with Rex.

Then you have to consider who can play special teams and who is eligible for practice squad.

It think it's going to come down to moss, armstrong and gaffney for two spots, and unless AAA comes on really strong, you have to lean toward the proven vets...

But somebody with talent is going to be cut...

[KazooSkinsFan]

This a classic offseason thread. But a lot will depend on what happens in camp

We are aware of that. It's not just receiver play, but injuries could change things or special teams play. Also the relative strengths of receivers for different roles. We may be able to trade one receiver and not another we rate about the same. There are a lot of factors, we're just making predictions

[Skeletor]

I know, predictions are always fun...

[1niksder]

I know, predictions are always fun...

[The Hogster]

Stays

Predict Gaffney will be a cap casualty, especially if we get no relief from this cap penalty.

Hogster,
I hope you aren't correct on this. If you are then we didn't get any better at WR in the off season, we simply got younger and more expensive. If we trade Garcon for Gafney we trade one player that costs less (Gaffney) for a player with virtually IDENTICLE production to a younger player that costs a lot more.

Now if we plan on having Gaffney, Moss, and Garcon on the field at the same time we defiantly got better. J Morgan is probably an improvement over AAA, but I'm not so sure. I think he is, but the year AAA had with McRib (a qb that can extend the play and get the ball down field) would be fantastic from a #4 or#5 WR.

To me if you are trying to win next year Garcon, Gaffney, Moss are your starters. With Hankerson, Morgan, and AAA getting worked into the rotation.

If they are looking more at how you will be in 2013 then I would start Hankerson, Garcon, and Gaffney (in the slot) and you let Moss go. In this set up Morgan would get a lot of playing time too. AAA would get cut and Austin or Paul would makes the team.

I agree with you on this. I'm in favor of keeping Gaffney. But, we are scrambling to create cap space. And, because of this--we may have to part with guys we would otherwise keep and give the younger guys (Austin/Hankerson) bigger roles.

I would guess that our staff believes that Garcon can be a #1 receiver if given the opportunities, and a QB (Griffin or Luck) who can get him the ball, while Gaffney at 31 has probably maxed out.

[fetus]

Stay:
Garçon
Hankerson
Moss
Morgan
Armstrong

Practice Squad:
Niles Paul

Go:
Banksy
Austin
Robinson

Gaffney I am iffy if he is here or not so iunno that one. he is owed a little bit of money and who knows last year may have been his lasy hoorah

[1niksder]

Stay:
Garçon
Hankerson
Moss
Morgan
Armstrong

Practice Squad:
Niles Paul

Go:
Banksy
Austin
Robinson

Gaffney I am iffy if he is here or not so iunno that one. he is owed a little bit of money and who knows last year may have been his lasy hoorah

Niles Paul played in 13 games last season, too many to qualify for the Practice Squad

Gaffney has 2,650,000 in Base Salary only.... it's all cap space if they let him go

[Red_One43]

We kept 8 receivers, including Banks as one of the eight.

Quarterbacks Kellen Clemens and Matt Gutierrez were sent packing, leaving room for eight receivers. The extra spot essentially goes to Brandon Banks, who is expected to see scant time as a wideout but is a game-breaking threat as a return man, provided he can stay healthy.

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sectio ... yID=125679