Gregg Williams "bounty system" in Washington

[DarthMonk]

Was this the beginning of Manning's neck problems?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nBxHse5s74

DarthMonk

[PulpExposure]

Agree...

And I agree that Gibbs usually knew everything, and could have known about a bounty system. Generally, he let Petibon coach the defense while he coached the offense, but Gibbs was so thorough that he would have known about a bounty system.

Gibbs apparently didn't know when Wiliamsstarted 10 players in a game after Sean Taylor's death.[/quote]

That tells me there's probably a good chance he didn't know what GreGGG was doing most of the time.

[Countertrey]

Agree...

And I agree that Gibbs usually knew everything, and could have known about a bounty system. Generally, he let Petibon coach the defense while he coached the offense, but Gibbs was so thorough that he would have known about a bounty system.

Gibbs apparently didn't [url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3138182]know when Wiliams started 10 players in a game after Sean Taylor's death.

That tells me there's probably a good chance he didn't know what GreGGG was doing most of the time.[/quote] Williams may have been the only one who knew about the 10 player thing... MULTIPLE people knew about the Bounty thing... players talk... players brag... Sorry... don't buy it. Gibbs is a great, and decent guy... but he was also a coach who cut his teeth on hard nosed football... and he is and was no chump. He either knew... or suspected, and didn't want to know (which is the same thing).

[Countertrey]

Was this the beginning of Manning's neck problems?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nBxHse5s74

DarthMonk

So? If the implication was that this was deliberate, I gotta call BS. This was a bang-bang play, with a high-low front and back concurrent hits. If either hits him alone, it's just a tackle.

[DarthMonk]

Was this the beginning of Manning's neck problems?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nBxHse5s74

DarthMonk

So? If the implication was that this was deliberate, I gotta call BS. This was a bang-bang play, with a high-low front and back concurrent hits. If either hits him alone, it's just a tackle.

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Dungy pointed to this play back in September before any of this. This certainly adds fuel to the fire.

DarthMonk

[Redskins_Fanatic]

.....and I'm surprised at people who don't understand it's wrong to pay a player for intentionally hurting an opponent.

Isn't that what defensive players get their regular weekly paycheck for in the first place?

[The Hogster]

The Redskins have hurt players a lot--even after Williams left. Vick, Andre Johnson & Adrian Peterson come to mind.. But, I'd like to see the list of players who actually collected bounties and the plays they won them on.

[DarthMonk]

.....and I'm surprised at people who don't understand it's wrong to pay a player for intentionally hurting an opponent.

Isn't that what defensive players get their regular weekly paycheck for in the first place?

No, it's not.

It appears the issue the NFL is citing is "non-contract bonuses."

Though they were not "bounties" Lombardi did this all the time:

"One technique he used was a formal grading system. Grades for individual performances Sunday were posted Thursdays, and in a mock-serious team ceremony, Lombardi handed out $5 bills (and later, $10 bills) to the highest performing individuals."

It would be interesting to hear from some old Packers on this.

DarthMonk

[ATX_Skins]

.....and I'm surprised at people who don't understand it's wrong to pay a player for intentionally hurting an opponent.

Isn't that what defensive players get their regular weekly paycheck for in the first place?

This is actually kinda funny when you think about it. Yes, but to a point.

[riggofan]

.....and I'm surprised at people who don't understand it's wrong to pay a player for intentionally hurting an opponent.

Isn't that what defensive players get their regular weekly paycheck for in the first place?

+1. Yeah I'm just not buying this argument at all. Ray Lewis is probably not trying break his opponents' legs when he tackles them, but anybody who thinks Ray Lewis isn't trying to hurt his opponent every time he lays a hit on him is full of it. That's been the game for years.

It seems to me GW had what he thought was a little motivational tool to encourage physical play and big hits. Big deal. Its the NFL, so the guys get $100 bills instead of lollipops. Unfortunately big hits sometimes lead to real injuries, so GW's little system was unseemly at best, and just a bad idea.

[Chris Luva Luva]

The bounties are meaningless. The same hits would occur, with or without the incentive. Do U think millionaires care about an extra $5k? Nope, this is nothing more than a tool used to get guys amped up. No different than when our bosses offer gift-cards/bonuses to get us to do what we should want to do with what we're already paid.

The question is, are they trying to end careers? Some guys, possibly... But I don't think that's what Gregg was asking.

How many times during the course of a game did U wish that Sean Taylor hit would keep a guy out the game?

How many times do U hope that an opposing QB is taken out of a game during a sack?

How many of you were happy when we knocked Vick out of the game?

All of you.... Bounty or no bounty.

[riggofan]

I like Brett Favre's quote:

“I’m not pissed,” Favre said. “It’s football. I don’t think anything less of those guys. I would have loved to play with Vilma. Hell of a player. I’ve got a lot of respect for Gregg Williams. He’s a great coach. I’m not going to make a big deal about it. In all honesty, there’s a bounty of some kind on you on every play."

[Chris Luva Luva]

I hate that the "NFL" is acting like they didn't know this existed....

[The Hogster]

I like Brett Favre's quote:

“I’m not pissed,” Favre said. “It’s football. I don’t think anything less of those guys. I would have loved to play with Vilma. Hell of a player. I’ve got a lot of respect for Gregg Williams. He’s a great coach. I’m not going to make a big deal about it. In all honesty, there’s a bounty of some kind on you on every play."

The dumbest thing about this story is that Gregg Williams was so involved in it. Couldn't he have just delegated the administration of it? That's what the guys on Mike & Mike said used to go down--the players ran these systems without the coach having to.

[RayNAustin]

I believe this issue is beginning to take the form of an illegitimate philosophy of retroactive law enforcement.

That the NFL is now shifting focus and altering rules of the game for the purpose of player safety is obvious, and probably a good thing if not taken too far in a direction that would result in inhibiting the quality of play, as controlled violence has always been a fundamental part of the game. By the same token, the NFL cannot rewrite the history of the league in the process, and apply these new standards as the criteria to judge past actions. That's just not right.

The only legitimate exception to that would be incontrovertible proof that players were instructed to break the rules of play that existed at the time, for the express purpose of injuring an opposing player, and issuing monetary rewards for such conduct. That would show a disregard for the rules of the game as well as the proper observation of "sportsmanship".

As an analogy, it's altogether a different situation if say a PGA pro makes a legitimate error in the application of the rules of golf, and fails to assess himself a penalty, with a player that tries to cheat purposely. If an NFL player is delivering big hits in 2004 that are within the boundaries of the rules at that time, or was an inadvertent violation of the rules (like a marginally late hit) .... it doesn't matter if there were some extra incentives for that ... call it what you will ... a bounty, or a bonus. But if you have guys out there intentionally trying to injure other players ... trying to take someone's knee out and ending their season or career, that's an entirely different thing, and certainly would constitute unsportsmanlike conduct.

With that in mind, I'd say they cannot conveniently ignore examples like Buddy Ryan and his blatant conduct that was considered unsportsmanlike at the time he was coaching, while going after Williams who was, until proven otherwise, simply promoting hard nose football within the confines of the rules of the game.

[emoses14]

I believe this issue is beginning to take the form of an illegitimate philosophy of retroactive law enforcement.

That the NFL is now shifting focus and altering rules of the game for the purpose of player safety is obvious, and probably a good thing if not taken too far in a direction that would result in inhibiting the quality of play, as controlled violence has always been a fundamental part of the game. By the same token, the NFL cannot rewrite the history of the league in the process, and apply these new standards as the criteria to judge past actions. That's just not right.

The only legitimate exception to that would be incontrovertible proof that players were instructed to break the rules of play that existed at the time, for the express purpose of injuring an opposing player, and issuing monetary rewards for such conduct. That would show a disregard for the rules of the game as well as the proper observation of "sportsmanship".

As an analogy, it's altogether a different situation if say a PGA pro makes a legitimate error in the application of the rules of golf, and fails to assess himself a penalty, with a player that tries to cheat purposely. If an NFL player is delivering big hits in 2004 that are within the boundaries of the rules at that time, or was an inadvertent violation of the rules (like a marginally late hit) .... it doesn't matter if there were some extra incentives for that ... call it what you will ... a bounty, or a bonus. But if you have guys out there intentionally trying to injure other players ... trying to take someone's knee out and ending their season or career, that's an entirely different thing, and certainly would constitute unsportsmanlike conduct.

With that in mind, I'd say they cannot conveniently ignore examples like Buddy Ryan and his blatant conduct that was considered unsportsmanlike at the time he was coaching, while going after Williams who was, until proven otherwise, simply promoting hard nose football within the confines of the rules of the game.

Because that is as eloquent as anything I had, I'll just add:

I find this whole investigation into the Saints, Jaguars, Redskins, Bills, Titans, and Belton High Pirates, ridiculous. If no other reason, of which there are many, then it gives YET ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY for this kind of drivel to printed about the Redskins:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/re ... story.html

At some point, this woman is going to tie the fall of the Roman Empire to the Washington Redksins.

[The Hogster]

When I was in the Army, the running joke among the ranks was that there was no such thing as "Military Intelligence."

The same could be said about "Player Safety" in the NFL.

This is a violent game, where events like the Combine showcase the size, speed & pure strength of the men who are paid to hunt each other.

It's not going to be "safe." Regardless of the "bounties" or this meeting with Goodell.

[GoSkins]

My guess is the NFL needs to cya. If they "condoned this" then they, the NFL, would be subject to lots of law suits. Put simply, the NFL cannot and will not allow a bounty system. But, they can't stop coaches from "grading" players' performances and giving high marks to players who, in this case, make sacks, tackles for losses, et al. Obviously, there can't be grades for taking opposing players out of the game.

[Chris Luva Luva]

Rewarding a player with a no contract = bounty system.

[RayNAustin]

The "Bounty" label is really a joke. When you have guys earning 100, 200, and $300,000 or more per game in salary ... the very idea that $200 petty cash dollars doled out in a team meeting is the driving force of that is the epitome of politically correct liberal lunacy.

That $200 is an adult version of the 2nd grade teacher sticking a gold star on their 8 year old student's finger painting.

Another example is military medals .... how much is "bronze" worth? Not much ... it's the symbolism and acknowledgment of an accomplishment, but was never the purpose for the action earning the medal.

I swear, this world of ours today is getting dumber by the second.

[Snout]

How many times during the course of a game did U wish that Sean Taylor hit would keep a guy out the game?

How many times do U hope that an opposing QB is taken out of a game during a sack?

How many of you were happy when we knocked Vick out of the game?

All of you.... Bounty or no bounty.

I never like to see the stretcher come out. I always like to see a player get up and walk off the field, even if he is an opponent. It is one thing to enjoy seeing our defense knock the wind out of people so that they miss a play or two. But it is quite another to hope opposing players get carried off the field or knocked out of games.

[Kilmer72]

The "Bounty" label is really a joke. When you have guys earning 100, 200, and $300,000 or more per game in salary ... the very idea that $200 petty cash dollars doled out in a team meeting is the driving force of that is the epitome of politically correct liberal lunacy.

That $200 is an adult version of the 2nd grade teacher sticking a gold star on their 8 year old student's finger painting.

Another example is military medals .... how much is "bronze" worth? Not much ... it's the symbolism and acknowledgment of an accomplishment, but was never the purpose for the action earning the medal.

I swear, this world of ours today is getting dumber by the second.

Yup... Greg Williams is the best DC in the game. Everyone is making to much of it.

[Kilmer72]

The "Bounty" label is really a joke. When you have guys earning 100, 200, and $300,000 or more per game in salary ... the very idea that $200 petty cash dollars doled out in a team meeting is the driving force of that is the epitome of politically correct liberal lunacy.

That $200 is an adult version of the 2nd grade teacher sticking a gold star on their 8 year old student's finger painting.

Another example is military medals .... how much is "bronze" worth? Not much ... it's the symbolism and acknowledgment of an accomplishment, but was never the purpose for the action earning the medal.

I swear, this world of ours today is getting dumber by the second.

Yup... Greg Williams is the best DC in the game. Everyone is making to much of it.

[jmooney]

The "Bounty" label is really a joke. When you have guys earning 100, 200, and $300,000 or more per game in salary ... the very idea that $200 petty cash dollars doled out in a team meeting is the driving force of that is the epitome of politically correct liberal lunacy.

That $200 is an adult version of the 2nd grade teacher sticking a gold star on their 8 year old student's finger painting.

Another example is military medals .... how much is "bronze" worth? Not much ... it's the symbolism and acknowledgment of an accomplishment, but was never the purpose for the action earning the medal.

I swear, this world of ours today is getting dumber by the second.

Agreed

The part nobody is mentioning is that , the $1-1.5k "bounties" had to be collected on legal hits. Whats the point in doing it illegally and catching a $25k fine? It does'nt add up.

This is shaping up to be a witch hunt if you ask me. Williams is about to get burned at the stake to cover the NFL's butt in the courtroom.

I'm not encouraging deliberately hurting another player but, people get hurt on legal plays all the time. Probably more than illegal ones. What happened to Peyton in "06 was legal THEN, today it isn't.

Where Williams went wrong was, the league asked him to stop, he didnt, now he's gonna pay for it. Unfortunately, he offered himself up as someone for the league to make an example of.

[DarthMonk]

.....and I'm surprised at people who don't understand it's wrong to pay a player for intentionally hurting an opponent.

Isn't that what defensive players get their regular weekly paycheck for in the first place?

I risk sounding like Bill Clinton here (it depends what "is" is) but it depends what you mean by hurt. If you mean hit him so hard (legally) that it hurts - yes. If you mean crown him in the ear hole so he can't think straight or try to blow out his knee - no.

The Vick hit is a perfect example of great football and the pleasure derived from good hits. He was diving for the goal line and two of our guys hit him simultaneously (and very cleanly) in in all-out effort to stop a score. I never saw intent to inflict serious injury. I just saw an awesome hit and was glad it made him leave the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=783mMLXq ... re=related

The vast majority of action in this great game does not involve the intent to inflict pain. Almost all line play is positioning and beating a guy to a spot. Most pass plays are about making plays on the ball. Even most tackles are attempts to simply bring a guy down or get him OB. It is only once per drive or so that we see the confluence of opportunity and intent that results in one guy trying to "hurt" another and the vast majority of those times the intent is simply to hit him solidly enough that he'll remember the next time he sees you as opposed to an attempt to inflict a serious injury. That is rare and I'm against it - bounty or no bounty.

DarthMonk