absinthe1023 wrote:See my response to CLL below. I'm aware that rookies post-Bradford will not command huge salaries during their rookie contracts. Flynn will be given a bigger deal than Hasselbeck, and there's no real evidence that he'd be able to serve as a placeholder starter for a young QB in this offense. Hasselbeck, at least, was a proven veteran starter and the Titans knew that he could shoulder the load for at least a season.
Kolb only got $21m in guaranteed money, so even in that situation paying a Kolb-like contract + #6 draft pick money is still affordable.
Whether or not Flynn deserves to get that kind of money is a completely different (and valid) discussion.
absinthe1023 wrote:See my response to CLL below. I'm aware that rookies post-Bradford will not command huge salaries during their rookie contracts. Flynn will be given a bigger deal than Hasselbeck, and there's no real evidence that he'd be able to serve as a placeholder starter for a young QB in this offense. Hasselbeck, at least, was a proven veteran starter and the Titans knew that he could shoulder the load for at least a season.
Kolb only got $21m in guaranteed money, so even in that situation paying a Kolb-like contract + #6 draft pick money is still affordable.
Whether or not Flynn deserves to get that kind of money is a completely different (and valid) discussion.
I don't think Flynn deserves that type of a contract, but I'm sure he'll get it (or more).
It all boils down to whether you are comfortable entering the season with Flynn and RGIII as your top 2 QBs, considering their combined salary (and loss of some flexibility with regards to obtaining FAs at other positions of need) and the loss of picks/players sacrificed to move up for RGIII.
That scenario does not give me the warm-and-fuzzies.
"No one played with more heart."
-Clinton Portis on Sean Taylor
As of 11/27/07, I resolve to never again read any version of the Washington Post.
absinthe1023 wrote:See my response to CLL below. I'm aware that rookies post-Bradford will not command huge salaries during their rookie contracts. Flynn will be given a bigger deal than Hasselbeck, and there's no real evidence that he'd be able to serve as a placeholder starter for a young QB in this offense. Hasselbeck, at least, was a proven veteran starter and the Titans knew that he could shoulder the load for at least a season.
Kolb only got $21m in guaranteed money, so even in that situation paying a Kolb-like contract + #6 draft pick money is still affordable.
Whether or not Flynn deserves to get that kind of money is a completely different (and valid) discussion.
How does the new rookie salaries work? And what about guys NOT signing with teams? I doubt we can just offer Luck or RGiii max rookie wages to not sign with a team should we not draft one and the team wanting to pay less for having to pay manning or another qb aswell. Just curious maybe its more a football 101 quéstion but who really goes in there?
#21 forever in our hearts “I wanted to just… put his lights out ….because, you know, …Dallas sucks…” - Dexter Manley
riggofan wrote: This just isn't remotely true, especially with the new rookie wage scale. In 2010, the #6 pick got $58m with $29m guaranteed. In 2011, the #6 pick got $16.2 million guaranteed. That's a huge difference.
Look at the Titans last year if you need further proof. They signed Matt Hasslebeck for something like 3 years/$20m the same year they drafted Jake Locker at #8 and paid him $12m. I guarantee if you the Titans can make that work financially, Dan Snyder can do it better.
I would also note that because the Titans signed Hasslebeck, Jake Locker the #8 pick DID NOT start this season - and probably would not have played at all if Hasslebeck stayed healthy. So this idea that "the #6 pick HAS to start" this year is just flat out not true.
See my response to CLL above. I'm aware that rookies post-Bradford will not command huge salaries during their rookie contracts. That's why I didn't mention RGIII's rookie salary alone as a big stumbling block, but focused on the loss of high picks/current players that would be incurred in moving up to draft him. His salary is only significant in that it would be combined with Flynn's at a position where only one player can start.
Flynn will be given a bigger deal than Hasselbeck, and there's no real evidence that he'd be able to serve as a placeholder starter for a young QB in this offense. Hasselbeck, at least, was a proven veteran starter and the Titans knew that he could shoulder the load for at least a season, making him both a cheap and logical option. With Flynn, a team will be paying considerably more but with much less assurance that he can be a viable, longterm starter.
Why would Flynn get more than Hasselbeck? If as you say there's no evidence that he's better than Hasselbeck. Hasselbeck got 6 years $65 million. So a six year deal worth around $60m.
Total guaranteed money: $16m
Signing bonus : $10m
Option Bonus (2014): $12m
Total Base salaries : $34m ($6m guaranteed)
Roster bonuses : $4m
That's roughly 2 years $16M or $12.5M in year one - He's not going to be offered that by most teams and it's a drop in the bucket for the Skins
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cowboykillerzRED wrote:How does the new rookie salaries work? And what about guys NOT signing with teams? I doubt we can just offer Luck or RGiii max rookie wages to not sign with a team should we not draft one and the team wanting to pay less for having to pay manning or another qb aswell. Just curious maybe its more a football 101 quéstion but who really goes in there?
Players agreed to a rookie wage scale in the last CBA. Contract length and salary is now fixed. So there isn't really any negotiation to be done with these drafted players like there was in the past and rookies can't hold out for more money.
riggofan wrote: This just isn't remotely true, especially with the new rookie wage scale. In 2010, the #6 pick got $58m with $29m guaranteed. In 2011, the #6 pick got $16.2 million guaranteed. That's a huge difference.
Look at the Titans last year if you need further proof. They signed Matt Hasslebeck for something like 3 years/$20m the same year they drafted Jake Locker at #8 and paid him $12m. I guarantee if you the Titans can make that work financially, Dan Snyder can do it better.
I would also note that because the Titans signed Hasslebeck, Jake Locker the #8 pick DID NOT start this season - and probably would not have played at all if Hasslebeck stayed healthy. So this idea that "the #6 pick HAS to start" this year is just flat out not true.
See my response to CLL above. I'm aware that rookies post-Bradford will not command huge salaries during their rookie contracts. That's why I didn't mention RGIII's rookie salary alone as a big stumbling block, but focused on the loss of high picks/current players that would be incurred in moving up to draft him. His salary is only significant in that it would be combined with Flynn's at a position where only one player can start.
Flynn will be given a bigger deal than Hasselbeck, and there's no real evidence that he'd be able to serve as a placeholder starter for a young QB in this offense. Hasselbeck, at least, was a proven veteran starter and the Titans knew that he could shoulder the load for at least a season, making him both a cheap and logical option. With Flynn, a team will be paying considerably more but with much less assurance that he can be a viable, longterm starter.
Why would Flynn get more than Hasselbeck? If as you say there's no evidence that he's better than Hasselbeck. Hasselbeck got 6 years $65 million. So a six year deal worth around $60m.
Total guaranteed money: $16m Signing bonus : $10m Option Bonus (2014): $12m Total Base salaries : $34m ($6m guaranteed) Roster bonuses : $4m
That's roughly 2 years $16M or $12.5M in year one - He's not going to be offered that by most teams and it's a drop in the bucket for the Skins
I don't think he necessarily DESERVES more than Hasselbeck, I just think that he will get more based on the dearth of FA QBs and draftable QBs that will possibly be ready to start on opening day.
There are at least 6 (WAS, SEA, MIA, CLE, IND, KC) and possibly 7 (DEN) teams that will be looking for a new starting QB this offseason.
Two of these teams will obtain Luck and RGIII, the other 4 or 5 teams will either have to find a "diamond in the rough" later in the draft, go with a player already on the roster (not conducive to the longevity of the coaching staff's career if unsuccessful), trade for a starter (unlikely historically), or sign a FA. Since Flynn is everyone's favorite FA, it stands to reason that there will be a bidding war for his services and that the winner will end up paying greater than market value.
"No one played with more heart."
-Clinton Portis on Sean Taylor
As of 11/27/07, I resolve to never again read any version of the Washington Post.
absinthe1023 wrote:It all boils down to whether you are comfortable entering the season with Flynn and RGIII as your top 2 QBs, considering their combined salary (and loss of some flexibility with regards to obtaining FAs at other positions of need) and the loss of picks/players sacrificed to move up for RGIII.
That scenario does not give me the warm-and-fuzzies.
Yeah I have no idea about Flynn. He's been good in his two starts, but he's still a 7th round pick playing on a VERY good team. Some red flags there. Then again, Brad Johnson was a 9th round pick, backup on the Vikings who went on to have a pretty good career. Coaches/scouts have to make that call. Hopefully they do a better job than they did on McNabb!!!
And I'm mostly with you on trading up to get RGIII if that's the case. I don't think we can afford to trade away a lot of picks.
From a salary cap POV though we can afford to bring in a guy like Flynn and still draft a QB high. Or I guess you could try to draft RGIII and keep Grossman or Beck on the cheap. I doubt that gives you the warm-and-fuzzies either!
1niksder wrote:That's roughly 2 years $16M or $12.5M in year one - He's not going to be offered that by most teams and it's a drop in the bucket for the Skins
It may be a "drop in the bucket" with regards to the 'Skins TOTAL cap space, but it is a significant amount given the scenario we're discussing.
In that scenario, the 'Skins would have Flynn and RGIII at QB and would lack players/2012 draft picks given up in the RGIII deal, plus have all the same holes to fill at other positions as they do today.
Given that some holes could potentially be filled with other 2012 draftees, wouldn't it make more sense to use that cap space for FAs at other positions of need rather than tie it all up at the QB position?
"No one played with more heart."
-Clinton Portis on Sean Taylor
As of 11/27/07, I resolve to never again read any version of the Washington Post.
absinthe1023 wrote:It all boils down to whether you are comfortable entering the season with Flynn and RGIII as your top 2 QBs, considering their combined salary (and loss of some flexibility with regards to obtaining FAs at other positions of need) and the loss of picks/players sacrificed to move up for RGIII.
That scenario does not give me the warm-and-fuzzies.
Yeah I have no idea about Flynn. He's been good in his two starts, but he's still a 7th round pick playing on a VERY good team. Some red flags there. Then again, Brad Johnson was a 9th round pick, backup on the Vikings who went on to have a pretty good career. Coaches/scouts have to make that call. Hopefully they do a better job than they did on McNabb!!!
And I'm mostly with you on trading up to get RGIII if that's the case. I don't think we can afford to trade away a lot of picks.
From a salary cap POV though we can afford to bring in a guy like Flynn and still draft a QB high. Or I guess you could try to draft RGIII and keep Grossman or Beck on the cheap. I doubt that gives you the warm-and-fuzzies either!
If you think RGIII can play, then having him and Grossman on opening day is preferable to having RGIII and Flynn from a value perspective.
"No one played with more heart."
-Clinton Portis on Sean Taylor
As of 11/27/07, I resolve to never again read any version of the Washington Post.
absinthe1023 wrote:If you think RGIII can play, then having him and Grossman on opening day is preferable to having RGIII and Flynn from a value perspective.
I'm not sure what RGIII really has to do with this. The cap number at #6 is what it is. If you move up and have to trade away players that has nothing to do with Flynn.
What you are saying is that you would rather have Rex Freaking Grossman as one of our top two QBs than a more expensive free agent QB like Flynn, because it would be better from a "value perspective"?
So ok we saved some money against the cap. And now we still have Rex Grossman on our roster. I doubt you're going to get a lot of support for that argument.
absinthe1023 wrote:Flynn will be given a bigger deal than Hasselbeck, and there's no real evidence that he'd be able to serve as a placeholder starter for a young QB in this offense. Hasselbeck, at least, was a proven veteran starter and the Titans knew that he could shoulder the load for at least a season, making him both a cheap and logical option. With Flynn, a team will be paying considerably more but with much less assurance that he can be a viable, longterm starter.
This is definitely NOT going to happen. You really think a team is going to pay that much money for a guy who's only played in two games? Don't get me wrong, I want Flynn on this team next year. I just don't think it's going to cost us that much. And if it does? So be it. Snyder has plenty o' cash to throw out there.
The whole Flynn/RGIII think was purely speculative. Who wouldn't want these guys together going into next year? What it boils down to is this...Cleveland will get one, we'll get the other. There is one thing that scares me though. There are other teams out there, lower than us in the draft (Dolphins, Jags, Broncos, possibly Jets) that could be looking for a new QB. What happens if one of those teams signs Flynn and then Cleveland drafts RGIII? Then what do we do!?
If our #6 Pick is a QB, that guy doesn't have to start right away. But, if our #6 pick is a QB, he's probably already better than what we have.
I guess it will be a battle of whose worse in camp. Veteran Bum (Grossman) versus Talented Rookie (#6). I can't say what Flynn would be like here with this team. It's just hard to project based on his limited experience in GB, and zero experience in the Redskins offense.
I'd rather keep Grossman around as the backup and take the growing pains like a man. Use the Matt Flynn money elsewhere, like Carl Nicks OG Saints.
absinthe1023 wrote:If you think RGIII can play, then having him and Grossman on opening day is preferable to having RGIII and Flynn from a value perspective.
I'm not sure what RGIII really has to do with this. The cap number at #6 is what it is. If you move up and have to trade away players that has nothing to do with Flynn.
What you are saying is that you would rather have Rex Freaking Grossman as one of our top two QBs than a more expensive free agent QB like Flynn, because it would be better from a "value perspective"?
So ok we saved some money against the cap. And now we still have Rex Grossman on our roster. I doubt you're going to get a lot of support for that argument.
What you have proposed is a straw man of your own devising rather than my argument. I suggest that you read the entire thread before presuming to know my train of thought.
The premise of the original post (from StorminMormon) was a scenario where the 'Skins would trade up for RGIII and also sign Flynn as a FA.
It's not about SAVING money against the cap, because as a fan I could care less if Snyder has to take a lien on his yacht as long as a quality product is on the field.
Given the scenario in which the 'Skins have traded up for RGIII, allocating further cap space to the QB position for Flynn instead of using that space for FAs at other positions of need makes less sense than resigning Grossman. In this offense, Flynn is not guaranteed to be an upgrade over Rex as a placeholder QB.
"No one played with more heart."
-Clinton Portis on Sean Taylor
As of 11/27/07, I resolve to never again read any version of the Washington Post.
The Hogster wrote:I'd rather keep Grossman around as the backup and take the growing pains like a man.
If Grossman makes the roster next season, there will be mass suicides reported around the DC Metro area. There are other FA QBs who can come here for close to the same price it would take to resign Grossman. Here are the realistic FA QBs who will be available come March:
-Matt Flynn
-Kyle Orton
-Jason Campbell
-Chris Redman
-Derek Anderson
-Shaun Hill
-Drew Stanton
-Brady Quinn
-David Garrard
-Luke McCown
-Chad Henne
-Sage Rosenfels
-David Carr
-Vince Young
-Dennis Dixon
-Byron Leftwich
-AJ Feely
-Josh Johnson
-Charlie Whitehurst
With the exception of Flynn and maybe Orton, Young, and Garrard, every other QB on that list can be signed for what Grossman would ask for. And 95% of them would be a definite upgrade over Wrecks. Kyle Shanahan has publically said they do not need a QB with experience in his system to succeed, so any argument about "Rex knows the system" can be tossed directly out the window. I'm amazed that some people even refer to him as a "competent backup". The words "competent" and "Rex Grossman" should never be used in the same sentence unless that sentence is "Rex Grossman has never been competent at the QB position".
StorminMormon86 wrote:This is definitely NOT going to happen. You really think a team is going to pay that much money for a guy who's only played in two games?
There some desperate GMs out there, and many of them aren't overly bright to begin with. They are usually pretty good at self-preservation, however. Flynn will buy some lucky GM/coaching staff an 2-3 years of job security.
StorminMormon86 wrote: There are other teams out there, lower than us in the draft (Dolphins, Jags, Broncos, possibly Jets) that could be looking for a new QB. What happens if one of those teams signs Flynn and then Cleveland drafts RGIII? Then what do we do!?
Simple. Snyder gasses up Redskin One, flys to Utah, and signs one of John Beck's younger brothers to back him up at QB. One year later, the 'Skins draft Barkley number one overall.
"No one played with more heart."
-Clinton Portis on Sean Taylor
As of 11/27/07, I resolve to never again read any version of the Washington Post.
absinthe1023 wrote:Given the scenario in which the 'Skins have traded up for RGIII, allocating further cap space to the QB position for Flynn instead of using that space for FAs at other positions of need makes less sense than resigning Grossman.
Good point. We've certainly proved over the years that spending a lot of extra money on free agents is a formula for success. Right, Andy Reid?
We'll have to disagree on this one. IMO, if we have a chance to upgrade over Grossman, then we should do it. The cap space is simply NOT an issue not matter how you try to spin it.
absinthe1023 wrote:Given the scenario in which the 'Skins have traded up for RGIII, allocating further cap space to the QB position for Flynn instead of using that space for FAs at other positions of need makes less sense than resigning Grossman.
Good point. We've certainly proved over the years that spending a lot of extra money on free agents is a formula for success. Right, Andy Reid?
We'll have to disagree on this one. IMO, if we have a chance to upgrade over Grossman, then we should do it. The cap space is simply NOT an issue not matter how you try to spin it.
Another straw man. I'm not proposing big bucks FA signings like we've seen in the past. I'm thinking more along the lines of the Cofield, Bowen, WR (Stallworth, Gaffney) acquisitions. Relatively cheap, proven vets at positions of need.
"No one played with more heart."
-Clinton Portis on Sean Taylor
As of 11/27/07, I resolve to never again read any version of the Washington Post.
riggofan wrote: This just isn't remotely true, especially with the new rookie wage scale. In 2010, the #6 pick got $58m with $29m guaranteed. In 2011, the #6 pick got $16.2 million guaranteed. That's a huge difference.
Look at the Titans last year if you need further proof. They signed Matt Hasslebeck for something like 3 years/$20m the same year they drafted Jake Locker at #8 and paid him $12m. I guarantee if you the Titans can make that work financially, Dan Snyder can do it better.
I would also note that because the Titans signed Hasslebeck, Jake Locker the #8 pick DID NOT start this season - and probably would not have played at all if Hasslebeck stayed healthy. So this idea that "the #6 pick HAS to start" this year is just flat out not true.
See my response to CLL above. I'm aware that rookies post-Bradford will not command huge salaries during their rookie contracts. That's why I didn't mention RGIII's rookie salary alone as a big stumbling block, but focused on the loss of high picks/current players that would be incurred in moving up to draft him. His salary is only significant in that it would be combined with Flynn's at a position where only one player can start.
Flynn will be given a bigger deal than Hasselbeck, and there's no real evidence that he'd be able to serve as a placeholder starter for a young QB in this offense. Hasselbeck, at least, was a proven veteran starter and the Titans knew that he could shoulder the load for at least a season, making him both a cheap and logical option. With Flynn, a team will be paying considerably more but with much less assurance that he can be a viable, longterm starter.
Why would Flynn get more than Hasselbeck? If as you say there's no evidence that he's better than Hasselbeck. Hasselbeck got 6 years $65 million. So a six year deal worth around $60m.
Total guaranteed money: $16m Signing bonus : $10m Option Bonus (2014): $12m Total Base salaries : $34m ($6m guaranteed) Roster bonuses : $4m
That's roughly 2 years $16M or $12.5M in year one - He's not going to be offered that by most teams and it's a drop in the bucket for the Skins
I think ideally (for me anyway) we pick up Luck. I am resigned to that not happening. So secondary is trading up to #3 and picking up RGIII and signing Flynn. Flynn would win the strating lineup (I'll assume) and let RGIII learn. If Flynn doesn't succeed, RGIII enters and Flynn is cut year 3. If Flynn succeeds, than you trade him for the house and RGIII enters.
MY QUESTIONS TO YOU ARE THESE (assuming the above):
What would we have to give up to get the pick from the Vikes IYO
and
What kind of deal could we work with Flynn to allow us to get out after year three if we wanted, with little CAP hit (I think the Eagles signed Asomgwa to a similar contract)
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12/17/09 - Ding Dong the Witch is Dead...Which Old Witch? The Wicked Witch.
For those who think there's no way Shanny trades up to get a QB, remember that he traded up 5 spots to pick Cutler. And who did he trade with? St. Louis.
StorminMormon86 wrote:If Grossman makes the roster next season, there will be mass suicides reported around the DC Metro area
I'm thinking you mean as starter because if we get a rookie I think there's a great chance he'll be on the roster and I'd be for it. He actually is decent for a backup in the NFL. I am all for that. Just not starting.
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absinthe1023 wrote:Another straw man. I'm not proposing big bucks FA signings like we've seen in the past. I'm thinking more along the lines of the Cofield, Bowen, WR (Stallworth, Gaffney) acquisitions. Relatively cheap, proven vets at positions of need.
Well the team can spend money on a free agent QB like Flynn and still afford "relatively cheap proven vets at position of need." Its not an either/or. So I guess you don't have anything to worry about.
absinthe1023 wrote:Another straw man. I'm not proposing big bucks FA signings like we've seen in the past. I'm thinking more along the lines of the Cofield, Bowen, WR (Stallworth, Gaffney) acquisitions. Relatively cheap, proven vets at positions of need.
Well the team can spend money on a free agent QB like Flynn and still afford "relatively cheap proven vets at position of need." Its not an either/or. So I guess you don't have anything to worry about.
You are correct. They would still be able to afford these vets, just 12.5 million less of them than they'd be able to afford otherwise. As a fan, I'd rather see that salary out on the field at in the OL or defensive secondary rather than parked on the bench as the backup QB.
I can see that you'll never be convinced, but I'm satisfied simply to have made my point.
"No one played with more heart."
-Clinton Portis on Sean Taylor
As of 11/27/07, I resolve to never again read any version of the Washington Post.
absinthe1023 wrote:You are correct. They would still be able to afford these vets, just 12.5 million less of them than they'd be able to afford otherwise. As a fan, I'd rather see that salary out on the field at in the OL or defensive secondary rather than parked on the bench as the backup QB.
I can see that you'll never be convinced, but I'm satisfied simply to have made my point.
I'll just end with this. We did a pretty good job landing quality guys in free agency this year as you pointed out. Bowen, Coffield, etc; We also ended the season with $12m in cap room. Why didn't the team go out and throw that $12m at this crowd of awesome free agents just sitting around waiting for us to take them?
Clearly, we can spend more on a free agent QB IF there is one worth spending it on, and still afford to build depth and plug holes through free agency.
