The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

joebagadonuts wrote:

GoSkins wrote:My crystal ball foretells the following:

1. Redskins draft a QB in Round 1
2. Beck is cut after we sign our new QB
3. Grossman stays and will start for the for most of the 2012 season
4. Our newly drafted QB will see playing time and by the end of the 2012 season will be the starter

Some of the draft gurus are saying that QBs like Luck and Barkley are 'NFL ready', and could start right away. If we were to draft an NFL Ready QB, Shanahan will do whatever he wants, although it's difficult to ignore the first-year guys who have started either from day one or close to it (I've never seen so many rookie starting QBs in one year) and have had success. We may go into the 2012 season thinking that Grossman will take the snaps for most of the season, but it may also be that the rookie starts sooner than we think he will.

I know it's easy to say 'don't move up to get THE guy', but after getting burned on late first round guys like Patrick Ramsey and Jason Campbell, I'm tempted to jump in the 'trade picks to get into the 1/2/3 spot' camp.

RayNAustin wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:There is NO WAY that this franchise goes into next season without a future great QB getting ready to play QB

I doubt that we have a QB named Beck or Grossman on the roster next season


many upgrades still needed but we're not far off except perhaps with O line

There's only one guy who is projected to be "Great" in the draft and that's Luck. If you don't get him, then you're getting a projected starter and middle of the road projected player. Similar to what Jason Campbell was.

If you're sitting at say #5 pick, the top 2 QBs are gone and the next guy is rated a 2nd round pick, you don't grab a guy just to grab a guy. You have to be flexible. Maybe you trade down. Maybe you draft another player at a position of need. There are enough holes on this team that you can easily find a player in the 1st round who will project as an upgrade to what we currently have.

I'm 1st in line to say we need a QB but I'm not going to give up the farm or overpay just to say you got a QB. You have to get it right in the 1st round and do everything in your power to nail that pick.

Frank, that's why you give up the farm to make a deal with the Colts, if they are willing to deal, which they may not be, unless you make it an offer nobody could refuse.

Normally, I'm totally against the philosophy of going "all in" for an individual player, but this is a unique situation. Luck has that type of talent that only comes around once every decade or two, and though it's generally a crap shoot with top pick QBs, he's probably as sure a thing as is possible without a crystal ball ... and particularly with QBs, you anticipate getting 14 or more years out of that player, while other positions, like RB can expect barely half of that career longevity. This makes it worth a huge investment if you think you have a sure thing.

The unique situation is that Luck is one of those rare ones who is expected to be able to go in and start right away, day one, similar to how Newton did this year, and he's better than Newton. While the Colts just signed Peyton to the largest contract of any player playing, and as long as Peyton's health doesn't prevent him from playing for the next 3-4 years, they may be persuaded to give up the pick with the right incentives ... since it will be extremely costly to pay what Luck will command to be a backup to manning for the next 3 or more years, and also give up the goodies they could get in a trade. It's really about Peyton's health and what the Colts can expect from him for the next few seasons ... if he can play, he will be the one playing.

While it's smart to recoil from the idea of "giving up the farm" in most cases, this case is different. A farm does you no good without the big tractor, and Luck is that tractor that the Redskins desperately need, and can solidify that position which has been the most unstable position of need for the Redskins for as far as the eye can see backward.

One has to consider the question ... what if you could go back in time ... what would you give up to sign Peyton Manning for the next 14 years? Would two or three 1st rounders be too much? Hell no ....look what the Redskins have accomplished with their 1st round picks .... Campbell and Rogers were 2 1st rounders .... would you trade Campbell and Rogers and next year's 1st for Luck? If you had a brain the answer is .... in a New York city second.

So that's my point .... you go to Indy and tell them we want that pick, and we're willing to engage a little "Temporary Insanity" to get it. What do you want? Whatever their answer is, you say OKAY. You want 3 one's ? Trade one of our studs (whomever) for someone's 2012 1st rounder ... package that with this year's 1, and our #1 for 2013, and then learn how to effectively utilize the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds for players you need for the next two years.

At the end of the day, it will be worth it .... when the Redskins will enjoy having a Peyton Manning type of player chewing up the Cowboys, Giants and Eagles for the next dozen years.

KCskin wrote:Is that right?
We beat Seattle.
Doesn't that give them the go ahead tie breaker or do we get it because we beat them?

frankcal20 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:There is NO WAY that this franchise goes into next season without a future great QB getting ready to play QB

I doubt that we have a QB named Beck or Grossman on the roster next season


many upgrades still needed but we're not far off except perhaps with O line

There's only one guy who is projected to be "Great" in the draft and that's Luck. If you don't get him, then you're getting a projected starter and middle of the road projected player. Similar to what Jason Campbell was.

frankcal20 wrote:Someone was just saying last night that RG3 isn't a lock to come out this year. I guess he's only a JR and would go into next season as the #1 rated QB coming out.

frankcal20 wrote:His #'s are great. Matter of fact they trump Barkleys. But like you said, they may just have a better system in place than at USC.

PAPDOG67 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:His #'s are great. Matter of fact they trump Barkleys. But like you said, they may just have a better system in place than at USC.

Barkley can make all the throws. He's my pick out of RGIII and Jone, assuming we have no shot at Luck. The guy is a big time leader and has only improved every year at USC. He is every bit as accurate as Luck is.

1niksder wrote:

PAPDOG67 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:His #'s are great. Matter of fact they trump Barkleys. But like you said, they may just have a better system in place than at USC.

Barkley can make all the throws. He's my pick out of RGIII and Jone, assuming we have no shot at Luck. The guy is a big time leader and has only improved every year at USC. He is every bit as accurate as Luck is.

He's Pete Carroll's boy and Pete will go get him, they'll have to give a few picks to move up and he will. The Skins don't need to get into a bidding war with anyone, let alone with Carroll for Barkley with all of the other needs.

But if we good get him I would have no reason to watch the rest of the draft, I'd be

PAPDOG67 wrote:

1niksder wrote:

PAPDOG67 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:His #'s are great. Matter of fact they trump Barkleys. But like you said, they may just have a better system in place than at USC.

Barkley can make all the throws. He's my pick out of RGIII and Jone, assuming we have no shot at Luck. The guy is a big time leader and has only improved every year at USC. He is every bit as accurate as Luck is.

He's Pete Carroll's boy and Pete will go get him, they'll have to give a few picks to move up and he will. The Skins don't need to get into a bidding war with anyone, let alone with Carroll for Barkley with all of the other needs.

But if we good get him I would have no reason to watch the rest of the draft, I'd be

One never knows. Two of his old boys were out there for the taking since he's been HC and he didn't go get either of them. I'll take Barkley or RGIII. I'm not as high on Jones.

1niksder wrote:Looking at the top six QBs in the 2012 draft:

Andrew Luck, QB, Stanford
Matt Barkley, QB, USC
Robert Griffin III, QB, Baylor
Landry Jones, QB, Oklahoma
Ryan Tannehill, QB, Texas A&M
Kirk Cousins, QB, Michigan State

and we see only the top half are first round pick worthy. If Cleveland decides to go QB or if Carroll trades up to get Barkley, where does that leave the Redskins?

What will Shanny do, knowing Landry Jones, Ryan Tannehill, and Kirk Cousins might not be first rounders but they are all upgrades over the Rex & Beck comedy hour we see every week?

What would you do?

PulpExposure wrote:

1niksder wrote:Looking at the top six QBs in the 2012 draft:

Andrew Luck, QB, Stanford
Matt Barkley, QB, USC
Robert Griffin III, QB, Baylor
Landry Jones, QB, Oklahoma
Ryan Tannehill, QB, Texas A&M
Kirk Cousins, QB, Michigan State

and we see only the top half are first round pick worthy. If Cleveland decides to go QB or if Carroll trades up to get Barkley, where does that leave the Redskins?

What will Shanny do, knowing Landry Jones, Ryan Tannehill, and Kirk Cousins might not be first rounders but they are all upgrades over the Rex & Beck comedy hour we see every week?

What would you do?

Curious why you seem to downgrade Landry Jones so much? Scouts Inc has him rated #5 in the draft, ahead of Barkley at 12, Tannehill at 31, and RG3 not in the top 32. Kiper has him at 6, with Barkley 7, and RG3 at 24. McShay has him at at 7 with Barkley at 6, and RG3 at 30 (and Tannehill at 24).

All 3 of these have Jones as a top 10 pick...am I missing something?

joebagadonuts wrote:

KCskin wrote:Is that right?
We beat Seattle.
Doesn't that give them the go ahead tie breaker or do we get it because we beat them?

Tie breaker for draft position is overall record, and then strength of schedule. Since our record is currently identical to the Seahawks, it goes to SOS. Despite the identical record, the Redskins have an easier schedule than the 'hawks, essentially saying that we suck just a little bit more than they do, and therefore deserve a higher pick.

1niksder wrote:

PAPDOG67 wrote:

1niksder wrote:

PAPDOG67 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:His #'s are great. Matter of fact they trump Barkleys. But like you said, they may just have a better system in place than at USC.

Barkley can make all the throws. He's my pick out of RGIII and Jone, assuming we have no shot at Luck. The guy is a big time leader and has only improved every year at USC. He is every bit as accurate as Luck is.

He's Pete Carroll's boy and Pete will go get him, they'll have to give a few picks to move up and he will. The Skins don't need to get into a bidding war with anyone, let alone with Carroll for Barkley with all of the other needs.

But if we good get him I would have no reason to watch the rest of the draft, I'd be -drinking :rock: -drinking :twisted: -drinking :twisted: -drinking :rock: -drinking

One never knows. Two of his old boys were out there for the taking since he's been HC and he didn't go get either of them. I'll take Barkley or RGIII. I'm not as high on Jones.

True but Barkley was heavily recruited and Pete went all out to get him, then Pete had to get out before the spit hit the fan.

AND

Just to point out how stupid the "losing for a better draft position" to get a top QB is...

Andrew Luck, Matt Barkley, Robert Griffin III, Ryan Tannehill, and Landry Jones all coming out at once gives the front office many options, but if all of the Juniors minus Luck go back for their senior year the top five would be...

Luck, E.J. Manuel from Florida State, Brandon Weeden from Oklahoma State, Nick Foles from Arizona and Kirk Cousins from Michigan State. <=== that's not a lot to lose for

QB Andrew Luck: Stanford (6-4, 235)

What I like…


- Exhibits natural bend at the knees and balance with his footwork in the pocket, is consistently in an effective throwing position.
- Possesses an impressive feel in the pocket, subtly moves away from pressure, keeps eye level down the field and isn’t afraid to take a shot after letting go of the football.
- Is a very good athlete for his size, can hurt you with his legs on the move, takes good care of the football and knows when to take off.
- Is natural/coordinated on the move. Throws accurately off the boot-action game, generates good torque from the hips and consistently squares his shoulders into his target.
- Exhibits “plus” arm strength when throwing on the move.
- Possesses quick, nimble footwork when asked to reset and align his body with a secondary target.
- Goes through his progressions very well, can work his way quickly across the field and back to his check down man if need be, really does know where everyone is throughout his progression.
- Displays a natural rhythm/timing of when the football needs to come out and rarely is late, even when throwing to secondary targets.
- Is comfortable working from a variety of formations and getting his team in and out of plays/formations and creating favorable run/pass situations.
- Has done a lot with a little, doesn’t have a real explosive receiving corps and routinely is forced to fit balls into tight windows.
- Is comfortable from under center, sells play-action game well, settles feet quickly and can throw in rhythm in the 3-step game.
- Has a better arm than given credit for, can spin the football cleanly and make all the throws needed with plenty of zip outside the numbers and down the seam.
- Is a competitor who has proven he can bounce back from adversity and take a team on his shoulders in crunch time.
- The moment never seems too big for him, always has a calm demeanor rarely gets frazzled.
- A bright kid who has worked hard to develop at his trade and will win games for you on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday with his preparation.

What I don’t like…

- Has locked onto receivers at times a bit more frequently this year compared to years past.
- Tries to get too cute at times with his touch on bucket throws down the field. Passes will hang on him giving defensive backs a chance to range and break on the football.
- Accuracy will get a bit inconsistent at times when asked to quickly step up in the pocket and throw on the move when being flushed due to pressure.
- Has thrown into coverage more often this year and tried to force more throws, likely due to his receivers' inability to consistently create separation.
- Trusts his ability to decipher defenses so much that he will throw blind back across the field at times to secondary options and not see defenders sitting underneath.


Final Take…

Overall, when breaking down the game of these two quarterback prospects, in my mind it’s not very close.

Oklahoma’s Landry Jones is a natural passer who can spin the football on all levels of the field and when he has a clean pocket and knows where he’s going with the football, he’s very good. However, unlike Luck, Jones doesn’t have a great feel working the entire field, isn’t the same type of athlete capable of quickly resetting his feet and too often struggles when he feels pressure.

I see Jones more as a potential starter only who is going to need a lot of talented pieces around him in order to be successful. I simply don’t see him as a guy capable of carrying an NFL team and can’t image Jones being anywhere near the prospect he’s being made out to be if he were in the Stanford offense throwing to that receiving corps.

Luck, on the other hand, looks like a franchise quarterback to me. He’s got a great feel for the game, deciphers information extremely well, is accurate both from the pocket and on the move and can make all the throws.

Now, there is some concern about his arm strength. However, in my mind that’s not a concern at all. And honestly I think when given a chance in the NFL to really rip the football into tight spots at the second level with more consistency, I think he’s going to prove to many that he has a much stronger arm than given credit for.

Therefore, Luck in my mind is the top overall quarterback prospect and is going to be able to play at a high level early on in his NFL career.

Follow me on twitter: @WesBunting

Check out the NFP Draft page here.

PAPDOG67 wrote:I think everyone can agree here that this franchise desperately needs a young franchise QB to rally around. Enough of these retreads, projects, and backups. the last one we actually hit on was Brad Johnson. Get a young guy in here who we can groom.