The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Russ Penman wrote:

PAPDOG67 wrote:

Russ Penman wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:Nice to have all that "positive attitude stuff" when it is warranted ... but I have to inject some reality here, because it's missing.

We've seen improvement on the defense this year even though a lot of it is masked by the fact that the offense has regressed, putting even more pressure on the defensive side. Missing OJ, and having Doughty in there has contributed to some of the failures to stop big plays .... but overall, the D is legit, and one you could win with.

Offensively ... this team has taken backward steps, from being infuriatingly inconsistent last year, to downright embarrassingly non-competitive this year, and the major gaping hole plaguing this team is what it has been for years now .... poor QB play. From 5 years wasted making excuses for Jason Campbell (always on the verge of his breakout year) to Mike Shanahan staking his "reputation" on John Beck this year, we're no closer to a solution than the day they announced hiring Mikey and the boy wonder from Houston. They orchestrated the McNabb debacle, losing picks in the process, and demonstrating their incompetent decision making, only to solidify that by laying a huge egg regarding Beck.

Remember, according to Shanny we didn't need to draft a QB or sign a free agent .... we had Beck who had Mike's full confidence .... until Grossman out performed him in preseason and won the starting job. Then, at 3-2, after a bad game, they bench Grossman and we watch what offense we had, leave town entirely. Two miscalculations (actually three if you count Grossman) in two years? I'm just overflowing with confidence that the next QB move is going to be THE ONE ...

For those who would dismiss the John Elway factor for explaining Shanahan's success in Denver, he also had Plumber and Cutler ... both of which are better than anything we've seen in Washington for years, with not much tangible success. So, take Elway out of the picture, and Shanahan is just another guy who had limited success with a storied franchise, and not much better than marginal. (Look at the Colts this year without Manning ... if you need to see what a great QB can do in spite of what is around him, either players or coaches.)

Now, couple that with Mike's son being in charge of this embarrassing offense .. a particularly sensitive and difficult matter to expect unbiased evaluation from the head man as one might expect if the OC was not his bloody offspring ... I see few reasons to anticipate a major turn around coming from the expertise of Frick & Frack, two individuals whose lofty opinions of themselves exceed their accomplishments. The more likely scenario is dogged determination and stubbornness that will go down with the ship, all the while finding something other than their own mistakes and shortcomings to blame.

Contrast what is occurring with the Redskins, versus what Harbaugh has managed with SF .... they too were 6-10 last year, and have already exceeded their win total in just half a season. At 7-1, and playing very sound football with a QB that the organization was about to give up on ... demonstrates what GOOD coaching can produce in a short time frame.

Some thought Harbaugh would struggle this year with Alex Smith ... who has failed to live up to expectations ... but apparently he was right with his assessments of the potential, and managed to get him up to speed and operating a new offense even with a shortened off season.

And what do we wind up with? We wind up with the same thing we always wind up with ... another set of excuses, and hope that next year will be better.

Mike staked his reputation on Beck .... easy to do if no one holds him to it. Well, that reputation is crashing to the ground, and some people magically see a silver lining .... I can't find it.

Sir you are 100% spot on, a excellent post and exactly the 100% truth. Personally I never liked Shanahan and always thought he was more or less a one hit wonder thanks to a hall of fame QB. Allthough he had decent offenses his knock was defenses on his teams sucked. Now I think the reason or the BULK of his offense being able to score is directly related to Gary Kubiak. Mike Shanahan is the prime example of someone that is more lucky than good, because now we can see that he was over hyped and I for one with him and Kyle calling shots I have no faith that the correct franchise QB will be gotten or picked with these numbskulls picking players and developing the roster.

I have no problem with you or anyone else not believing in Shanahan. You make some decent point. My question to you and everyone else who wants him out already is who do we replace him with and why?

I would like to keep him provided he changes his OC and DC and becomes more involved in the actual play calling. I believe his resume supports this but it is evident Haslett and his son don't get the same pass that he gets.

PAPDOG67 wrote:We've tried the college route, it didn't go to well.

PAPDOG67 wrote:

Russ Penman wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:Nice to have all that "positive attitude stuff" when it is warranted ... but I have to inject some reality here, because it's missing.

We've seen improvement on the defense this year even though a lot of it is masked by the fact that the offense has regressed, putting even more pressure on the defensive side. Missing OJ, and having Doughty in there has contributed to some of the failures to stop big plays .... but overall, the D is legit, and one you could win with.

Offensively ... this team has taken backward steps, from being infuriatingly inconsistent last year, to downright embarrassingly non-competitive this year, and the major gaping hole plaguing this team is what it has been for years now .... poor QB play. From 5 years wasted making excuses for Jason Campbell (always on the verge of his breakout year) to Mike Shanahan staking his "reputation" on John Beck this year, we're no closer to a solution than the day they announced hiring Mikey and the boy wonder from Houston. They orchestrated the McNabb debacle, losing picks in the process, and demonstrating their incompetent decision making, only to solidify that by laying a huge egg regarding Beck.

Remember, according to Shanny we didn't need to draft a QB or sign a free agent .... we had Beck who had Mike's full confidence .... until Grossman out performed him in preseason and won the starting job. Then, at 3-2, after a bad game, they bench Grossman and we watch what offense we had, leave town entirely. Two miscalculations (actually three if you count Grossman) in two years? I'm just overflowing with confidence that the next QB move is going to be THE ONE ...

For those who would dismiss the John Elway factor for explaining Shanahan's success in Denver, he also had Plumber and Cutler ... both of which are better than anything we've seen in Washington for years, with not much tangible success. So, take Elway out of the picture, and Shanahan is just another guy who had limited success with a storied franchise, and not much better than marginal. (Look at the Colts this year without Manning ... if you need to see what a great QB can do in spite of what is around him, either players or coaches.)

Now, couple that with Mike's son being in charge of this embarrassing offense .. a particularly sensitive and difficult matter to expect unbiased evaluation from the head man as one might expect if the OC was not his bloody offspring ... I see few reasons to anticipate a major turn around coming from the expertise of Frick & Frack, two individuals whose lofty opinions of themselves exceed their accomplishments. The more likely scenario is dogged determination and stubbornness that will go down with the ship, all the while finding something other than their own mistakes and shortcomings to blame.

Contrast what is occurring with the Redskins, versus what Harbaugh has managed with SF .... they too were 6-10 last year, and have already exceeded their win total in just half a season. At 7-1, and playing very sound football with a QB that the organization was about to give up on ... demonstrates what GOOD coaching can produce in a short time frame.

Some thought Harbaugh would struggle this year with Alex Smith ... who has failed to live up to expectations ... but apparently he was right with his assessments of the potential, and managed to get him up to speed and operating a new offense even with a shortened off season.

And what do we wind up with? We wind up with the same thing we always wind up with ... another set of excuses, and hope that next year will be better.

Mike staked his reputation on Beck .... easy to do if no one holds him to it. Well, that reputation is crashing to the ground, and some people magically see a silver lining .... I can't find it.

Sir you are 100% spot on, a excellent post and exactly the 100% truth. Personally I never liked Shanahan and always thought he was more or less a one hit wonder thanks to a hall of fame QB. Allthough he had decent offenses his knock was defenses on his teams sucked. Now I think the reason or the BULK of his offense being able to score is directly related to Gary Kubiak. Mike Shanahan is the prime example of someone that is more lucky than good, because now we can see that he was over hyped and I for one with him and Kyle calling shots I have no faith that the correct franchise QB will be gotten or picked with these numbskulls picking players and developing the roster.

I have no problem with you or anyone else not believing in Shanahan. You make some decent point. My question to you and everyone else who wants him out already is who do we replace him with and why?

markshark84 wrote:

PAPDOG67 wrote:

Russ Penman wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:Nice to have all that "positive attitude stuff" when it is warranted ... but I have to inject some reality here, because it's missing.

We've seen improvement on the defense this year even though a lot of it is masked by the fact that the offense has regressed, putting even more pressure on the defensive side. Missing OJ, and having Doughty in there has contributed to some of the failures to stop big plays .... but overall, the D is legit, and one you could win with.

Offensively ... this team has taken backward steps, from being infuriatingly inconsistent last year, to downright embarrassingly non-competitive this year, and the major gaping hole plaguing this team is what it has been for years now .... poor QB play. From 5 years wasted making excuses for Jason Campbell (always on the verge of his breakout year) to Mike Shanahan staking his "reputation" on John Beck this year, we're no closer to a solution than the day they announced hiring Mikey and the boy wonder from Houston. They orchestrated the McNabb debacle, losing picks in the process, and demonstrating their incompetent decision making, only to solidify that by laying a huge egg regarding Beck.

Remember, according to Shanny we didn't need to draft a QB or sign a free agent .... we had Beck who had Mike's full confidence .... until Grossman out performed him in preseason and won the starting job. Then, at 3-2, after a bad game, they bench Grossman and we watch what offense we had, leave town entirely. Two miscalculations (actually three if you count Grossman) in two years? I'm just overflowing with confidence that the next QB move is going to be THE ONE ...

For those who would dismiss the John Elway factor for explaining Shanahan's success in Denver, he also had Plumber and Cutler ... both of which are better than anything we've seen in Washington for years, with not much tangible success. So, take Elway out of the picture, and Shanahan is just another guy who had limited success with a storied franchise, and not much better than marginal. (Look at the Colts this year without Manning ... if you need to see what a great QB can do in spite of what is around him, either players or coaches.)

Now, couple that with Mike's son being in charge of this embarrassing offense .. a particularly sensitive and difficult matter to expect unbiased evaluation from the head man as one might expect if the OC was not his bloody offspring ... I see few reasons to anticipate a major turn around coming from the expertise of Frick & Frack, two individuals whose lofty opinions of themselves exceed their accomplishments. The more likely scenario is dogged determination and stubbornness that will go down with the ship, all the while finding something other than their own mistakes and shortcomings to blame.

Contrast what is occurring with the Redskins, versus what Harbaugh has managed with SF .... they too were 6-10 last year, and have already exceeded their win total in just half a season. At 7-1, and playing very sound football with a QB that the organization was about to give up on ... demonstrates what GOOD coaching can produce in a short time frame.

Some thought Harbaugh would struggle this year with Alex Smith ... who has failed to live up to expectations ... but apparently he was right with his assessments of the potential, and managed to get him up to speed and operating a new offense even with a shortened off season.

And what do we wind up with? We wind up with the same thing we always wind up with ... another set of excuses, and hope that next year will be better.

Mike staked his reputation on Beck .... easy to do if no one holds him to it. Well, that reputation is crashing to the ground, and some people magically see a silver lining .... I can't find it.

Sir you are 100% spot on, a excellent post and exactly the 100% truth. Personally I never liked Shanahan and always thought he was more or less a one hit wonder thanks to a hall of fame QB. Allthough he had decent offenses his knock was defenses on his teams sucked. Now I think the reason or the BULK of his offense being able to score is directly related to Gary Kubiak. Mike Shanahan is the prime example of someone that is more lucky than good, because now we can see that he was over hyped and I for one with him and Kyle calling shots I have no faith that the correct franchise QB will be gotten or picked with these numbskulls picking players and developing the roster.

I have no problem with you or anyone else not believing in Shanahan. You make some decent point. My question to you and everyone else who wants him out already is who do we replace him with and why?

While I also agree with what Ray is saying (and am grossly indifferent to MS), we cannot change the coaching and FO structure at this time. I find that most of the skins community has severly underestimated how bad things were here prior to MS and BA taking charge. We need to do something that has never been done while Danny boy has been our owner -- to not prematurely fire the coaching staff and FO before they actually implement their game plan (i.e., let the dust settle).

We can argue all we want about whether or not MS was the catalyst behind his SB wins or comparing Harbough against MS -- but IMHO, this is all irrelevant. You can only go as far as your talent --- and the skins have some of the worst in football (and it was even worse when MS came to town). We literally had THE ABSOLUTE WORST front office in football for close to a decade and a half (maybe even 2 decades) prior to MS coming in. As a result we had less talent, depth, and draft picks at our disposal. I am confident that 100% of the coaching staffs coming into this mess would fail if given less than 5 years to fix.

As such, I don't think we can adequately analyze the FO and coaching staff with the players on our current roster -- especially on offense. We need to be patient, let them deconstruct the mess Vinny and Danny made and rebuild. While I understand that it is almost impossible to remain patient -- I have a hard time myself -- for the main reason that this team has been rebuilding since 1993. And goes through the same cycle every 3 years or so...

If you look at it, though, we have only had one coach (Norv Turner) here for more than a couple years -- and he was fired after taking our team to their last NFC East title.... I don't think this is happenstance. The burn and turn of coaching staffs in DC has plagued this franchise. It needs to stop. Building a winner takes time -- it cannot be done is a couple years -- ESPECIALLY with the situation we have had in DC and the mess that Vinny and Danny made.

I often think that skins fans are just gluttons for punishment. I have no idea why people think that repeating the same cycle will one day result in success. It baffles me. Let MS do his thing for 2 or 3 more seasons. If he fails, we can move on, but I see no reason to prematurely fire him -- which would have resulted from the fact he had to implement his system using grossly inferior players.

Russ Penman wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

PAPDOG67 wrote:

Russ Penman wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:Nice to have all that "positive attitude stuff" when it is warranted ... but I have to inject some reality here, because it's missing.

We've seen improvement on the defense this year even though a lot of it is masked by the fact that the offense has regressed, putting even more pressure on the defensive side. Missing OJ, and having Doughty in there has contributed to some of the failures to stop big plays .... but overall, the D is legit, and one you could win with.

Offensively ... this team has taken backward steps, from being infuriatingly inconsistent last year, to downright embarrassingly non-competitive this year, and the major gaping hole plaguing this team is what it has been for years now .... poor QB play. From 5 years wasted making excuses for Jason Campbell (always on the verge of his breakout year) to Mike Shanahan staking his "reputation" on John Beck this year, we're no closer to a solution than the day they announced hiring Mikey and the boy wonder from Houston. They orchestrated the McNabb debacle, losing picks in the process, and demonstrating their incompetent decision making, only to solidify that by laying a huge egg regarding Beck.

Remember, according to Shanny we didn't need to draft a QB or sign a free agent .... we had Beck who had Mike's full confidence .... until Grossman out performed him in preseason and won the starting job. Then, at 3-2, after a bad game, they bench Grossman and we watch what offense we had, leave town entirely. Two miscalculations (actually three if you count Grossman) in two years? I'm just overflowing with confidence that the next QB move is going to be THE ONE ...

For those who would dismiss the John Elway factor for explaining Shanahan's success in Denver, he also had Plumber and Cutler ... both of which are better than anything we've seen in Washington for years, with not much tangible success. So, take Elway out of the picture, and Shanahan is just another guy who had limited success with a storied franchise, and not much better than marginal. (Look at the Colts this year without Manning ... if you need to see what a great QB can do in spite of what is around him, either players or coaches.)

Now, couple that with Mike's son being in charge of this embarrassing offense .. a particularly sensitive and difficult matter to expect unbiased evaluation from the head man as one might expect if the OC was not his bloody offspring ... I see few reasons to anticipate a major turn around coming from the expertise of Frick & Frack, two individuals whose lofty opinions of themselves exceed their accomplishments. The more likely scenario is dogged determination and stubbornness that will go down with the ship, all the while finding something other than their own mistakes and shortcomings to blame.

Contrast what is occurring with the Redskins, versus what Harbaugh has managed with SF .... they too were 6-10 last year, and have already exceeded their win total in just half a season. At 7-1, and playing very sound football with a QB that the organization was about to give up on ... demonstrates what GOOD coaching can produce in a short time frame.

Some thought Harbaugh would struggle this year with Alex Smith ... who has failed to live up to expectations ... but apparently he was right with his assessments of the potential, and managed to get him up to speed and operating a new offense even with a shortened off season.

And what do we wind up with? We wind up with the same thing we always wind up with ... another set of excuses, and hope that next year will be better.

Mike staked his reputation on Beck .... easy to do if no one holds him to it. Well, that reputation is crashing to the ground, and some people magically see a silver lining .... I can't find it.

Sir you are 100% spot on, a excellent post and exactly the 100% truth. Personally I never liked Shanahan and always thought he was more or less a one hit wonder thanks to a hall of fame QB. Allthough he had decent offenses his knock was defenses on his teams sucked. Now I think the reason or the BULK of his offense being able to score is directly related to Gary Kubiak. Mike Shanahan is the prime example of someone that is more lucky than good, because now we can see that he was over hyped and I for one with him and Kyle calling shots I have no faith that the correct franchise QB will be gotten or picked with these numbskulls picking players and developing the roster.

I have no problem with you or anyone else not believing in Shanahan. You make some decent point. My question to you and everyone else who wants him out already is who do we replace him with and why?

While I also agree with what Ray is saying (and am grossly indifferent to MS), we cannot change the coaching and FO structure at this time. I find that most of the skins community has severly underestimated how bad things were here prior to MS and BA taking charge. We need to do something that has never been done while Danny boy has been our owner -- to not prematurely fire the coaching staff and FO before they actually implement their game plan (i.e., let the dust settle).

We can argue all we want about whether or not MS was the catalyst behind his SB wins or comparing Harbough against MS -- but IMHO, this is all irrelevant. You can only go as far as your talent --- and the skins have some of the worst in football (and it was even worse when MS came to town). We literally had THE ABSOLUTE WORST front office in football for close to a decade and a half (maybe even 2 decades) prior to MS coming in. As a result we had less talent, depth, and draft picks at our disposal. I am confident that 100% of the coaching staffs coming into this mess would fail if given less than 5 years to fix.

As such, I don't think we can adequately analyze the FO and coaching staff with the players on our current roster -- especially on offense. We need to be patient, let them deconstruct the mess Vinny and Danny made and rebuild. While I understand that it is almost impossible to remain patient -- I have a hard time myself -- for the main reason that this team has been rebuilding since 1993. And goes through the same cycle every 3 years or so...

If you look at it, though, we have only had one coach (Norv Turner) here for more than a couple years -- and he was fired after taking our team to their last NFC East title.... I don't think this is happenstance. The burn and turn of coaching staffs in DC has plagued this franchise. It needs to stop. Building a winner takes time -- it cannot be done is a couple years -- ESPECIALLY with the situation we have had in DC and the mess that Vinny and Danny made.

I often think that skins fans are just gluttons for punishment. I have no idea why people think that repeating the same cycle will one day result in success. It baffles me. Let MS do his thing for 2 or 3 more seasons. If he fails, we can move on, but I see no reason to prematurely fire him -- which would have resulted from the fact he had to implement his system using grossly inferior players.

I do somewhat agree with your logic, the only thing that actually bothers me is this, MS is a 2 time Super Bowl winning coach, JH is in his rookie year as a HC, so am I to believe that this team was so bad that a SB winning coach can't get any better in year two while a rookie HC can come in and totally redo and make his team look like a decent if not good team in the NFL? Niles Paul, Terrence Austin, Roy Helu all appear to have talent, as does Maurice Hurt. Sorry it hurts to have to admit that this team lacked any postive backup. I also don't understand why Evan Royster hasn't cracked the roster. I just don't want to wait 4 years only to still be so bad and not appear to have any answers.

markshark84 wrote:

Russ Penman wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

PAPDOG67 wrote:

Russ Penman wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:Nice to have all that "positive attitude stuff" when it is warranted ... but I have to inject some reality here, because it's missing.

We've seen improvement on the defense this year even though a lot of it is masked by the fact that the offense has regressed, putting even more pressure on the defensive side. Missing OJ, and having Doughty in there has contributed to some of the failures to stop big plays .... but overall, the D is legit, and one you could win with.

Offensively ... this team has taken backward steps, from being infuriatingly inconsistent last year, to downright embarrassingly non-competitive this year, and the major gaping hole plaguing this team is what it has been for years now .... poor QB play. From 5 years wasted making excuses for Jason Campbell (always on the verge of his breakout year) to Mike Shanahan staking his "reputation" on John Beck this year, we're no closer to a solution than the day they announced hiring Mikey and the boy wonder from Houston. They orchestrated the McNabb debacle, losing picks in the process, and demonstrating their incompetent decision making, only to solidify that by laying a huge egg regarding Beck.

Remember, according to Shanny we didn't need to draft a QB or sign a free agent .... we had Beck who had Mike's full confidence .... until Grossman out performed him in preseason and won the starting job. Then, at 3-2, after a bad game, they bench Grossman and we watch what offense we had, leave town entirely. Two miscalculations (actually three if you count Grossman) in two years? I'm just overflowing with confidence that the next QB move is going to be THE ONE ...

For those who would dismiss the John Elway factor for explaining Shanahan's success in Denver, he also had Plumber and Cutler ... both of which are better than anything we've seen in Washington for years, with not much tangible success. So, take Elway out of the picture, and Shanahan is just another guy who had limited success with a storied franchise, and not much better than marginal. (Look at the Colts this year without Manning ... if you need to see what a great QB can do in spite of what is around him, either players or coaches.)

Now, couple that with Mike's son being in charge of this embarrassing offense .. a particularly sensitive and difficult matter to expect unbiased evaluation from the head man as one might expect if the OC was not his bloody offspring ... I see few reasons to anticipate a major turn around coming from the expertise of Frick & Frack, two individuals whose lofty opinions of themselves exceed their accomplishments. The more likely scenario is dogged determination and stubbornness that will go down with the ship, all the while finding something other than their own mistakes and shortcomings to blame.

Contrast what is occurring with the Redskins, versus what Harbaugh has managed with SF .... they too were 6-10 last year, and have already exceeded their win total in just half a season. At 7-1, and playing very sound football with a QB that the organization was about to give up on ... demonstrates what GOOD coaching can produce in a short time frame.

Some thought Harbaugh would struggle this year with Alex Smith ... who has failed to live up to expectations ... but apparently he was right with his assessments of the potential, and managed to get him up to speed and operating a new offense even with a shortened off season.

And what do we wind up with? We wind up with the same thing we always wind up with ... another set of excuses, and hope that next year will be better.

Mike staked his reputation on Beck .... easy to do if no one holds him to it. Well, that reputation is crashing to the ground, and some people magically see a silver lining .... I can't find it.

Sir you are 100% spot on, a excellent post and exactly the 100% truth. Personally I never liked Shanahan and always thought he was more or less a one hit wonder thanks to a hall of fame QB. Allthough he had decent offenses his knock was defenses on his teams sucked. Now I think the reason or the BULK of his offense being able to score is directly related to Gary Kubiak. Mike Shanahan is the prime example of someone that is more lucky than good, because now we can see that he was over hyped and I for one with him and Kyle calling shots I have no faith that the correct franchise QB will be gotten or picked with these numbskulls picking players and developing the roster.

I have no problem with you or anyone else not believing in Shanahan. You make some decent point. My question to you and everyone else who wants him out already is who do we replace him with and why?

While I also agree with what Ray is saying (and am grossly indifferent to MS), we cannot change the coaching and FO structure at this time. I find that most of the skins community has severly underestimated how bad things were here prior to MS and BA taking charge. We need to do something that has never been done while Danny boy has been our owner -- to not prematurely fire the coaching staff and FO before they actually implement their game plan (i.e., let the dust settle).

We can argue all we want about whether or not MS was the catalyst behind his SB wins or comparing Harbough against MS -- but IMHO, this is all irrelevant. You can only go as far as your talent --- and the skins have some of the worst in football (and it was even worse when MS came to town). We literally had THE ABSOLUTE WORST front office in football for close to a decade and a half (maybe even 2 decades) prior to MS coming in. As a result we had less talent, depth, and draft picks at our disposal. I am confident that 100% of the coaching staffs coming into this mess would fail if given less than 5 years to fix.

As such, I don't think we can adequately analyze the FO and coaching staff with the players on our current roster -- especially on offense. We need to be patient, let them deconstruct the mess Vinny and Danny made and rebuild. While I understand that it is almost impossible to remain patient -- I have a hard time myself -- for the main reason that this team has been rebuilding since 1993. And goes through the same cycle every 3 years or so...

If you look at it, though, we have only had one coach (Norv Turner) here for more than a couple years -- and he was fired after taking our team to their last NFC East title.... I don't think this is happenstance. The burn and turn of coaching staffs in DC has plagued this franchise. It needs to stop. Building a winner takes time -- it cannot be done is a couple years -- ESPECIALLY with the situation we have had in DC and the mess that Vinny and Danny made.

I often think that skins fans are just gluttons for punishment. I have no idea why people think that repeating the same cycle will one day result in success. It baffles me. Let MS do his thing for 2 or 3 more seasons. If he fails, we can move on, but I see no reason to prematurely fire him -- which would have resulted from the fact he had to implement his system using grossly inferior players.

I do somewhat agree with your logic, the only thing that actually bothers me is this, MS is a 2 time Super Bowl winning coach, JH is in his rookie year as a HC, so am I to believe that this team was so bad that a SB winning coach can't get any better in year two while a rookie HC can come in and totally redo and make his team look like a decent if not good team in the NFL? Niles Paul, Terrence Austin, Roy Helu all appear to have talent, as does Maurice Hurt. Sorry it hurts to have to admit that this team lacked any postive backup. I also don't understand why Evan Royster hasn't cracked the roster. I just don't want to wait 4 years only to still be so bad and not appear to have any answers.

How about 20 years....because that's how long we have been waiting for answers in our endless coaching carousel. Honestly, we need to have patience and Danny cannot interfere. It is a tough thing to do, but it takes time to build a winner and even more time when you basically only have 5 pieces to a puzzle that needs a whole lot more. No one here can predict the future -- all you can do is make sound decisions and not to short cut things.

As far as JH, you can't really compare the two. Like Zorn, it took teams almost the entire year (or at least until about week 10) to get enough film on him to actually create schemes. It appears that JH is going to be a very good coach (especially considering the success his brother is having), but it is too early -- again, you need to have patience. Time will tell.

I would also like to add that SF had a much better team coming into this year. I understand that they had similar records, but there is/was a talent divide. Offensively SF has Gore, Crabtree, Edwards, Ginn, Davis, and what appears to be a solid OL (they are literally stacked everywhere other than QB). The SF defense is giving up 14 pts per game. Offensively, the skins have..........fred davis??? That's about it; I see no other player even worth mentioning -- literally. This teams needs a QB, 2 WRs, a RB, and 4 new OL before they can even be considered a contender.

RayNAustin wrote: WTF are these guys thinking?

RayNAustin wrote:While I understand what you are trying to say ... I've got a slightly different take on the matter.

First, Jim Zorn did not deplete the talent in his brief stint as the latest Redskin Coach "Scapegoat", and as much as the Danny-Vinny team did in the earlier years ... from the Gibbs II era forward, I cannot find nearly as much fault with them as most people tend to do. This is kind of being stuck in a time warp, and not really valid. They picked Orakpo, with the only #1 pick during the 2 years of Zorn, and Fred Davis with a #2, and the worst move was Haynesworth, which Haynesworth himself was to blame .. as he certainly had the talent.

Going back to Gibbs II, the Redskins were primed in 2005 with 2 fist round picks which Gibbs chose to use on Jason Campbell and Carlos Rogers ... and that ultimately set the team back several years .... out of 21 draft picks under Gibbs, 4 were 1st rounders, and only 1, Laron Landry is with the team (Sean Taylor's tragic death accounts for 1) ... and of that 21 picks only 6 are currently with the team. Campbell and Rogers KILLED this team, and not 1 pick from 2005 panned out. We picked cinder block hands, while DeMarcus Ware and Shawn Merriman, Jamal Brown, and Aaron Rogers were still on the board ... and then picked Campbell. Can you imagine the difference it would have made picking Aaron Rogers, and DeMarcus Ware?

Now, fast forward to Shanahan .... he picked McNabb, and Grossman and Beck. And for all his faults, McNabb led the league in big plays down field prior to being benched after 7 games ... and that was in spite of an O-line that was horrible, no running game to speak of, and an entire team learning a new offense and a new defense. And McNabb is the only Redskin QB of the 3 which actually has a winning record, and the Redskins WOULD BE BETTER OFF NOW, with McNabb, rather than Grossman or Beck, though that became a non-option after the underhanded and disrespectful ways in which the two Shanahans treated him last year.

So, when you evaluate personnel decisions, when you look at the totality of Shanahan's choices and utilization of talent ... it's a mixed bag at best, and the fact is, the offense has regressed significantly in year two, while progress should be the only cause for optimism.

Now, the real worrisome issue is the "I'll bet my house on Beck" stuff. Here's a guy who has NEVER won a single game in the NFL, and from the performance we've seen so far, that shouldn't be surprising, WTF are these guys thinking?

In the era of free agency, you cannot take a long term building project approach, because there is too much turnover, and too many potential failures in draft picks which often don't prove out either way for a couple of years. The Redskins need a legitimate QB to build around, but how can we trust Shanahan to be the guy who can pick the right guy? So far, he's 0 for 3 in two years, just regarding QBs.

One more failed QB experiment next year, and this team will find itself in the same boat we're in today, 4 years from now.

oneman56 wrote:Everyone praising Jim Harbaugh should wait a bit longer to see what he does over the long haul. It wasn't too long ago the Skins' franchise seemed to have found a coach in Zorn when we were 6-2 at the half way point. I'm not dis-crediting what Harbaugh has done or stating he will fail in the same manner as Zorn, or at all, but some of these statements are just crazy. Let the season play out and see how well the 9ers do and then see how they are the next few years before you truly grade this out and praise him as a coach. McDaniels was 6-0 in Denver his first season as well until things fell apart, you have to be patient in both respects...when things are going good and when they aren't. We had a good draft last year and hopefully will have an even better one this year. Add in a full free agency period and you never know what can happen but I will say that starting all over with a new coaching staff would not be in the best interest long term.

DarthMonk wrote:
PS - Did Rodgers also have "character issues?"

DarthMonk

RayNAustin wrote:While I understand what you are trying to say ... I've got a slightly different take on the matter.

First, Jim Zorn did not deplete the talent in his brief stint as the latest Redskin Coach "Scapegoat", and as much as the Danny-Vinny team did in the earlier years ... from the Gibbs II era forward, I cannot find nearly as much fault with them as most people tend to do. This is kind of being stuck in a time warp, and not really valid. They picked Orakpo, with the only #1 pick during the 2 years of Zorn, and Fred Davis with a #2, and the worst move was Haynesworth, which Haynesworth himself was to blame .. as he certainly had the talent.

Going back to Gibbs II, the Redskins were primed in 2005 with 2 fist round picks which Gibbs chose to use on Jason Campbell and Carlos Rogers ... and that ultimately set the team back several years .... out of 21 draft picks under Gibbs, 4 were 1st rounders, and only 1, Laron Landry is with the team (Sean Taylor's tragic death accounts for 1) ... and of that 21 picks only 6 are currently with the team. Campbell and Rogers KILLED this team, and not 1 pick from 2005 panned out. We picked cinder block hands, while DeMarcus Ware and Shawn Merriman, Jamal Brown, and Aaron Rogers were still on the board ... and then picked Campbell. Can you imagine the difference it would have made picking Aaron Rogers, and DeMarcus Ware?

Now, fast forward to Shanahan .... he picked McNabb, and Grossman and Beck. And for all his faults, McNabb led the league in big plays down field prior to being benched after 7 games ... and that was in spite of an O-line that was horrible, no running game to speak of, and an entire team learning a new offense and a new defense. And McNabb is the only Redskin QB of the 3 which actually has a winning record, and the Redskins WOULD BE BETTER OFF NOW, with McNabb, rather than Grossman or Beck, though that became a non-option after the underhanded and disrespectful ways in which the two Shanahans treated him last year.

So, when you evaluate personnel decisions, when you look at the totality of Shanahan's choices and utilization of talent ... it's a mixed bag at best, and the fact is, the offense has regressed significantly in year two, while progress should be the only cause for optimism.

Now, the real worrisome issue is the "I'll bet my house on Beck" stuff. Here's a guy who has NEVER won a single game in the NFL, and from the performance we've seen so far, that shouldn't be surprising, WTF are these guys thinking?

In the era of free agency, you cannot take a long term building project approach, because there is too much turnover, and too many potential failures in draft picks which often don't prove out either way for a couple of years. The Redskins need a legitimate QB to build around, but how can we trust Shanahan to be the guy who can pick the right guy? So far, he's 0 for 3 in two years, just regarding QBs.

One more failed QB experiment next year, and this team will find itself in the same boat we're in today, 4 years from now.

Irn-Bru wrote:joebagadonuts! Welcome back.

markshark84 wrote:

PAPDOG67 wrote:

Russ Penman wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:
I often think that skins fans are just gluttons for punishment. I have no idea why people think that repeating the same cycle will one day result in success. It baffles me. Let MS do his thing for 2 or 3 more seasons. If he fails, we can move on, but I see no reason to prematurely fire him -- which would have resulted from the fact he had to implement his system using grossly inferior players.

The Hogster wrote:Hey guys, we STINK!!

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

DarthMonk wrote:
PS - Did Rodgers also have "character issues?"

DarthMonk

Are you serious?

DarthMonk wrote:Absolutely. I'd've drafted him in a heartbeat. I'm just asking a history question. Why did he fall so far? Mallett fell due to "character issues." I'm trying to point out the foolishness of some GMs when they see a huge talent who had pre-marital sex or had a beer at a frat party.

Why did he fall?



DarthMonk

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

DarthMonk wrote:
PS - Did Rodgers also have "character issues?"

DarthMonk

Are you serious?

DarthMonk wrote:Absolutely. I'd've drafted him in a heartbeat. I'm just asking a history question. Why did he fall so far? Mallett fell due to "character issues." I'm trying to point out the foolishness of some GMs when they see a huge talent who had pre-marital sex or had a beer at a frat party.

Why did he fall?



DarthMonk