The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

cleg wrote:McNabb is a head case, was here in Philly and in Washington. Sure, Shanny could have dealt with him better but McNabb is a baby and way too sensitive. I think he is smart but he is lazy (or maybe complacent) and he was not willing to change. There was a story on the radio here about the Shannahan's getting to Redskin Park at 6 am everyday as do many of the players. McNabb was rolling in around 7:30 or 8:00 with a large Starbucks drink. That kind of stuff screams arrogance, that he is better than everyone else, and would drive NFL coaches crazy. Andy Reid was very good at hiding players problems. I am just glad the guy is gone. If he had more of a killer instinct and wanted to be the best the Eagles would probably have won a Super Bowl, but he is complacent, arrogant, and willing to have good enough be ok rather than greatness.

Going to all those NFC championship games in a row isn't possible for a lazy quarterback.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

cleg wrote:McNabb is a head case, was here in Philly and in Washington. Sure, Shanny could have dealt with him better but McNabb is a baby and way too sensitive. I think he is smart but he is lazy (or maybe complacent) and he was not willing to change. There was a story on the radio here about the Shannahan's getting to Redskin Park at 6 am everyday as do many of the players. McNabb was rolling in around 7:30 or 8:00 with a large Starbucks drink. That kind of stuff screams arrogance, that he is better than everyone else, and would drive NFL coaches crazy. Andy Reid was very good at hiding players problems. I am just glad the guy is gone. If he had more of a killer instinct and wanted to be the best the Eagles would probably have won a Super Bowl, but he is complacent, arrogant, and willing to have good enough be ok rather than greatness.

Going to all those NFC championship games in a row isn't possible for a lazy quarterback.

Just like those who do not watch Redskins games week in and week out have no real sense of the little things that make a team go or fans happy those who have not been forced to watch the Eagles play week in and week out would not know of the little things about McNabb that kept him from being a great, all time QB which he could have been.

This season we'll see McNabb show a lot of people how good a QB he still is AND why he will be considered a very good QB when he is no longer playing

Countertrey wrote:Jeremy... how many rings do you have? How many does McNabb have?


How many does Mike Shanahan have?

How many does Kyle have? I think it was the Kyle-McNabb relationship that was disfunctional.

yupchagee wrote:

Countertrey wrote:Jeremy... how many rings do you have? How many does McNabb have?


How many does Mike Shanahan have?

How many does Kyle have? I think it was the Kyle-McNabb relationship that was disfunctional.

If Mike disagreed with Kyle, he would have taken him aside, told him the adjustments that he needed to make, and sent him back to work. You can bet that they were of a mind on this.

Kyle was not, and is not, the boss. The offense we saw on the field on Friday was vintage MIKE Shanahan. How many rings does HE have remains germain.

yupchagee wrote:

Countertrey wrote:Jeremy... how many rings do you have? How many does McNabb have?


How many does Mike Shanahan have?

How many does Kyle have? I think it was the Kyle-McNabb relationship that was disfunctional.

If Mike disagreed with Kyle, he would have taken him aside, told him the adjustments that he needed to make, and sent him back to work. You can bet that they were of a mind on this.

Kyle was not, and is not, the boss. The offense we saw on the field on Friday was vintage MIKE Shanahan. How many rings does HE have remains germain.

Countertrey wrote:Jeremy... how many rings do you have? How many does McNabb have?


How many does Mike Shanahan have?

What has Shanahan done since John Elway? NOTHING. The game has passed him by my friend. I know you are probably laughing right now because the Redskins are sitting pretty at 2-0 in two meaningless games, but you will see that will all come to an end.

What have YOU done since John Elway? What did you do BEFORE John Elway? How many rings do you have? I am laughing... but not because of 2-0 in preseason...

yupchagee wrote:

Countertrey wrote:Jeremy... how many rings do you have? How many does McNabb have?


How many does Mike Shanahan have?

How many does Kyle have? I think it was the Kyle-McNabb relationship that was disfunctional.

I think Mike gave Kyle his 49er Super Bowl Ring (Mike was OC) for his 13th birthday, so Kyle has one.

Countertrey wrote:What have YOU done since John Elway? What did you do BEFORE John Elway? How many rings do you have? I am laughing... but not because of 2-0 in preseason...

I asked a fair and legitimate question and I get this childish response from you. Since you are avoiding my question due to the fact that you have no clue to my question otherwise you would have answered my question like a grown man, the question was what has Mike Shanahan done since John Elway. Well, since 1999 Mike Shanahan has won 1 playoff game. There was another question asked regarding McNabb. Mcnabb hasn't won a superbowl however McNabb has won 9 playoff games since entering the league as a rookie in 1999.

jeremyroyce wrote:What has Shanahan done since John Elway?

With the Broncos, it was four playoff appearances and only two losing seasons in ten years. With the Skins, he's taking a team that was in total chaos and turning the ship around.

NOTHING.

Oh, I see now. You must have meant, "How many Super Bowls has Shanahan won since John Elway?"

The game has passed him by my friend.

Belichick is going on seven years since he last won a Super Bowl (and he's only been coaching that team for 11). He has done "NOTHING" since then, by your own chosen definition. Think the game has passed him by?

Of course not. Your standards (or should I say "standard," since you only have one way of assessing a team or coach) are patently absurd.

I know you are probably laughing right now because the Redskins are sitting pretty at 2-0 in two meaningless games, but you will see that will all come to an end.

You realize that nobody here sees this as a Super Bowl team, right? Now by your definition that means this team will accomplish "NOTHING" this year, of course. But not everyone has such a shallow, childish view. When the Redskins break .500, seem to have a system in place for the first time since Gibbs, and show a lot of promise with their youth, you'll see. And that's what we're looking for in this team: progress. Building. We're looking for a foundation.

(I know, I know, in your view Super Bowls just kinda happen. But in reality, a fair bit of work has to go into it, you see, and while that work is going on a lot of people don't see the forest from the trees and say things like "this coach is doing NOTHING to bring success." Then, when the ship is turned around, they are astounded, because it seems like magic. And I guess for them it is. But not everyone is surprised when it happens.)

How about this: the next time you want to ask how many Super Bowls Shanahan has won since Elway, say something like, "How many Super Bowls has Shanahan won since Elway?"

The "Mike Shanahan hasn't done nothing since Elway" argument is beyond stupid. If I was administrator of the board I would have that phrase autocorrected to read "[Poster]'s argument is invalid."

Fact is, Elway never won anything without Shanahan. It was Shanahan who decided to:

-Start Tom Nalen in 1995 who had been a 7th round pick in 1994.

-Bring in Ed McCaffrey in 1995 who was a career backup and became a key contributor to the Broncos championship teams.

-Select Terrell Davis in the 6th round of the 1995 draft. A huge star who's career was cut short by injuries.

-Bring in Mark Schlereth in 1995 who along with Zimmerman and Nalen kept Elway upright.

-Sign Rod Smith who was an undrafted free agent. One of the best undrafted players ever.

Basically Shanahan massively upgraded the line, there was one big free agent signing (Stink) and a 7th rounder who was given a shot since he fit the ZBS. Shanahan also gave Elway a running game with this line and a 6th round pick in TD who became a mega star AND he gave Elway two star WR's who came off the garbage heap.

An convincing argument could be made that Shanahan was what Elway needed to finally get over the top.

Skinsfan55 wrote:The "Mike Shanahan hasn't done nothing since Elway" argument is beyond stupid. If I was administrator of the board I would have that phrase autocorrected to read "[Poster]'s argument is invalid."

Fact is, Elway never won anything without Shanahan. It was Shanahan who decided to:

-Start Tom Nalen in 1995 who had been a 7th round pick in 1994.

-Bring in Ed McCaffrey in 1995 who was a career backup and became a key contributor to the Broncos championship teams.

-Select Terrell Davis in the 6th round of the 1995 draft. A huge star who's career was cut short by injuries.

-Bring in Mark Schlereth in 1995 who along with Zimmerman and Nalen kept Elway upright.

-Sign Rod Smith who was an undrafted free agent. One of the best undrafted players ever.

Basically Shanahan massively upgraded the line, there was one big free agent signing (Stink) and a 7th rounder who was given a shot since he fit the ZBS. Shanahan also gave Elway a running game with this line and a 6th round pick in TD who became a mega star AND he gave Elway two star WR's who came off the garbage heap.

An convincing argument could be made that Shanahan was what Elway needed to finally get over the top.

Don't forget Shanahan was Elway's QB coach with the Broncos under Reeves when Reeves sent Mike packing because he felt that the two were too chummy.

jeremyroyce wrote:

Countertrey wrote:What have YOU done since John Elway? What did you do BEFORE John Elway? How many rings do you have? I am laughing... but not because of 2-0 in preseason...

I asked a fair and legitimate question and I get this childish response from you. Since you are avoiding my question due to the fact that you have no clue to my question otherwise you would have answered my question like a grown man, the question was what has Mike Shanahan done since John Elway. Well, since 1999 Mike Shanahan has won 1 playoff game. There was another question asked regarding McNabb. Mcnabb hasn't won a superbowl however McNabb has won 9 playoff games since entering the league as a rookie in 1999.

I asked you a fair and legitimate question and you don't want to answer, why? I answered your questions.

You spout off these rants and don't provide any support for your rants. You say to me:

Why don't you go listen to or read the press conference of what Mike Shanahan had said when he was speaking about the McNabb and Haynesworth trade

I read the article and and responded a couple of posts back - so where is your support for your position?

My question:

It is a clear indication that Philly didn't want McNabb and Shanahan tried to make a square peg fit into a round hole. Shanny is known for that. You still didn't answer the question. How is McNabb screwed, given that he was allowed to sign with any team that wanted him and he was paid very well last year? Shanny made a mistake in trading for him, but it doesn't sound like McNabb did his part to do, what he was paid very well to do.

and I add McNabb is a professional and is expected to abide by the coaches philosophy - that's why he gets paid millions.

Red_One43 wrote:

jeremyroyce wrote:

Countertrey wrote:What have YOU done since John Elway? What did you do BEFORE John Elway? How many rings do you have? I am laughing... but not because of 2-0 in preseason...

I asked a fair and legitimate question and I get this childish response from you. Since you are avoiding my question due to the fact that you have no clue to my question otherwise you would have answered my question like a grown man, the question was what has Mike Shanahan done since John Elway. Well, since 1999 Mike Shanahan has won 1 playoff game. There was another question asked regarding McNabb. Mcnabb hasn't won a superbowl however McNabb has won 9 playoff games since entering the league as a rookie in 1999.

I asked you a fair and legitimate question and you don't want to answer, why? I answered your questions.

You spout off these rants and don't provide any support for your rants. You say to me:

Why don't you go listen to or read the press conference of what Mike Shanahan had said when he was speaking about the McNabb and Haynesworth trade

I read the article and and responded a couple of posts back - so where is your support for your position?

My question:

It is a clear indication that Philly didn't want McNabb and Shanahan tried to make a square peg fit into a round hole. Shanny is known for that. You still didn't answer the question. How is McNabb screwed, given that he was allowed to sign with any team that wanted him and he was paid very well last year? Shanny made a mistake in trading for him, but it doesn't sound like McNabb did his part to do, what he was paid very well to do.

and I add McNabb is a professional and is expected to abide by the coaches philosophy - that's why he gets paid millions.

Here is a post that was a legitimate point.

Why don't you go listen to or read the press conference of what Mike Shanahan had said when he was speaking about the McNabb and Haynesworth trade. That is a clear indication of why McNabb failed. And I seem to remember that I touched on this before. You fit your system around the talent that you have. You don't tell a a 12 year vet who has been to 6 pro bowls, and 5 NFC championships and 1 super bowl and who is going to be in the hall of fame when he retires how to play QB. Just like you wouldn't tell Peyton Manning or Joe Montana how to play QB. A good head coach will fit his strengths in his system. And that's the problem with Shanahan it's either my way or the highway. Taking a defense that's been successful in recent years in a 4-3, and then forcing the 3-4 knowing full well that you don't have the players to suit that defense. But you have the players to run the 4-3. You have two players that had double digit sacks, had 40 sacks that season they went from 28th in sacks to 8th in one year when it was Albert's first year with our team. And then Shanahan moves players out of position and they don't succeed he gets rid of them, knowing they can be successful back at their original spot and two knowing full well that some teams have already tried this experiment with certain players and it didn't work so they go rid of them. It's just stupid. McNabb took the Eagles to the playoffs the previous season and he was in the Pro Bowl. So, I don't want to hear it.


Me spoutin off? With nothing to provide any support for my rants. First off all I'm trying to do is have a reasonable conversation regarding this situation. I'm not ranting. Secondly, read my last post and you will find support about what I think about Shanahan, and the failure of McNabb. This is the first response I get from that post. Jeremy... how many rings do you have? Whose spoutin off there? That's not even a reasonable question. Now the next question is a legitimate question. How many does McNabb have? The answer is none. I made myself clear that I already touched on this. Shanahan made one last swipe at McNabb. He didn't need to go there. His comments in my opinion are inappropriate. If you want me to remind you of them comments. Something along the lines of I tried to tell him why Andy Reid got rid of him and what he needed to do to get to the Pro Bowl (Well, wasn't McNabb just in the Pro Bowl a couple months back before the trade?) and be with this team for awhile, but it just didn't work out. That is throwing McNabb under the bus and Shanahan NEVER accepted any blame for this mess from what I read or saw, and if I'm wrong and there is an article out there then please post so I can see it.

jeremyroyce wrote:

Red_One43 wrote:

jeremyroyce wrote:

Countertrey wrote:What have YOU done since John Elway? What did you do BEFORE John Elway? How many rings do you have? I am laughing... but not because of 2-0 in preseason...

I asked a fair and legitimate question and I get this childish response from you. Since you are avoiding my question due to the fact that you have no clue to my question otherwise you would have answered my question like a grown man, the question was what has Mike Shanahan done since John Elway. Well, since 1999 Mike Shanahan has won 1 playoff game. There was another question asked regarding McNabb. Mcnabb hasn't won a superbowl however McNabb has won 9 playoff games since entering the league as a rookie in 1999.

I asked you a fair and legitimate question and you don't want to answer, why? I answered your questions.

You spout off these rants and don't provide any support for your rants. You say to me:

Why don't you go listen to or read the press conference of what Mike Shanahan had said when he was speaking about the McNabb and Haynesworth trade

I read the article and and responded a couple of posts back - so where is your support for your position?

My question:

It is a clear indication that Philly didn't want McNabb and Shanahan tried to make a square peg fit into a round hole. Shanny is known for that. You still didn't answer the question. How is McNabb screwed, given that he was allowed to sign with any team that wanted him and he was paid very well last year? Shanny made a mistake in trading for him, but it doesn't sound like McNabb did his part to do, what he was paid very well to do.

and I add McNabb is a professional and is expected to abide by the coaches philosophy - that's why he gets paid millions.

Here is a post that was a legitimate point.

Why don't you go listen to or read the press conference of what Mike Shanahan had said when he was speaking about the McNabb and Haynesworth trade. That is a clear indication of why McNabb failed. And I seem to remember that I touched on this before. You fit your system around the talent that you have. You don't tell a a 12 year vet who has been to 6 pro bowls, and 5 NFC championships and 1 super bowl and who is going to be in the hall of fame when he retires how to play QB. Just like you wouldn't tell Peyton Manning or Joe Montana how to play QB. A good head coach will fit his strengths in his system. And that's the problem with Shanahan it's either my way or the highway. Taking a defense that's been successful in recent years in a 4-3, and then forcing the 3-4 knowing full well that you don't have the players to suit that defense. But you have the players to run the 4-3. You have two players that had double digit sacks, had 40 sacks that season they went from 28th in sacks to 8th in one year when it was Albert's first year with our team. And then Shanahan moves players out of position and they don't succeed he gets rid of them, knowing they can be successful back at their original spot and two knowing full well that some teams have already tried this experiment with certain players and it didn't work so they go rid of them. It's just stupid. McNabb took the Eagles to the playoffs the previous season and he was in the Pro Bowl. So, I don't want to hear it.


Me spoutin off? With nothing to provide any support for my rants. First off all I'm trying to do is have a reasonable conversation regarding this situation. I'm not ranting. Secondly, read my last post and you will find support about what I think about Shanahan, and the failure of McNabb. This is the first response I get from that post. Jeremy... how many rings do you have? Whose spoutin off there? That's not even a reasonable question. Now the next question is a legitimate question. How many does McNabb have? The answer is none. I made myself clear that I already touched on this. Shanahan made one last swipe at McNabb. He didn't need to go there. His comments in my opinion are inappropriate. If you want me to remind you of them comments. Something along the lines of I tried to tell him why Andy Reid got rid of him and what he needed to do to get to the Pro Bowl (Well, wasn't McNabb just in the Pro Bowl a couple months back before the trade?) and be with this team for awhile, but it just didn't work out. That is throwing McNabb under the bus and Shanahan NEVER accepted any blame for this mess from what I read or saw, and if I'm wrong and there is an article out there then please post so I can see it.

OK, I get what you are saying that Shanahan didn't have to go there. He did take a shot at Donovan and you are saying that he should be above that. We will agree to disagree on that. I say Mike showed more than enough restraint. But, you did clarify what you took from the article.

The truth is there were some underlying issues going on between those two. We don't know the truth about what really went on. I started this thread in hopes of folks posting new inofrmation, based on facts, that might lead us to the truth. We never heard from McNabb, until he came out and said words to the effect that some coaches want you to be robotic That statement seems to confirm that Donovan, whether passively or agressively, and I would bet passive agressively, did not do what he could to learn this offense and be the leader he was expected to be. Most likely, reports that he was the last one in the building and last out were true. Shanhan was and is pissed. Sure, he is ultimatley to blame for giving up 2 picks for Donovan, but Shanahan has every right to expect a millionaire vet QB to do as he is told to do.

So, Mike is human and said some mean things to Donovan. Donovan isn't screwed. He was allowed to seek a trade and he was allowed to get away from here with minimum compensation. Mike could have really screwed him and held him until after game one and dumped him. Instead, Donovan moves on with his millions and has chance to prove he isn't done and Redskins move on and as if he was never here. Did you notice no protests that Donovan was unfairly treated and we want him back - that goes for Philly too. Mike still bears the brunt of losing two draft picks and a time table setback because in his eyes a vet QB didn't do what he was paid to do.

From your perspective, you are mad at Mike, but from Mike's perspective he is fuming at Donvovan - BUT he didn't screw him. If anybody screwed him, it was Andy Reid. He kept Vick and Kolb over him and sent him packing from the only team he had played for. As you said a team he led to 9 play-off games and one Super Bowl experience. Where is Kolb now? Just because he didn't say anything mean, Donovan wasn't torn up by it.

Me. I recognize that the NFL is a business. Coaches coach and players play and when star player doesn't like coach, he packs bags and Coach Shanahan (specifcally Shanahan) doesn't like a player, that player knows it. Rule 1 - don't get on Shanny's bad side.

Here's what Shanny said:

"We were hoping he would fit into our system," Shanahan said. "I told Donovan when he came in here, I said: 'Hey, here are the reasons why I think Philly did not sign you' -- they were going to go with (Kevin) Kolb -- 'this is what you're going to have to do to stay on our football team for a number of years. If you do that, I think you've got a chance to go to the Pro Bowl and do the things you've been doing throughout your career.' It didn't work out."

and:

"I think Donovan has a great future ahead of him -- if he decides to do the little things that he needs to do to get to the next level," said Shanahan, who then declined to elaborate on what those "little things" are.

Which is what you say explains everything when you firt posted in this thread:

jeremyroyce wrote:It was pretty evident why McNabb failed when Shanahan had his press conference talking about the McNabb and the Albert trade. Shanahan made sure that he got one last swipe on McNabb and threw him once again under the bus.

That says McNabb did not do the things the coach asked him to do.

Then you said Shanahan screwed McNabb, when asked how you pointed everyone back to the statements from the press conference. The statement does explain how McNabb failed but not how he was screwed by Shanny

I'm glad that Shanahan let McNabb go - you cannot have a QB that will not do what the HC or the OC needs from you

McNabb was not 'solely' responsible for the success of the Eagles

I'll go one step further the Eagles were successful despite McNabb

I like McNabb - I wish he'd tried to help this franchise
he screwed us - we gave him a good job and paid him well

1niksder wrote:Here's what Shanny said:

"We were hoping he would fit into our system," Shanahan said. "I told Donovan when he came in here, I said: 'Hey, here are the reasons why I think Philly did not sign you' -- they were going to go with (Kevin) Kolb -- 'this is what you're going to have to do to stay on our football team for a number of years. If you do that, I think you've got a chance to go to the Pro Bowl and do the things you've been doing throughout your career.' It didn't work out."

and:

"I think Donovan has a great future ahead of him -- if he decides to do the little things that he needs to do to get to the next level," said Shanahan, who then declined to elaborate on what those "little things" are.

Which is what you say explains everything when you firt posted in this thread:

jeremyroyce wrote:It was pretty evident why McNabb failed when Shanahan had his press conference talking about the McNabb and the Albert trade. Shanahan made sure that he got one last swipe on McNabb and threw him once again under the bus.

That says McNabb did not do the things the coach asked him to do.

Then you said Shanahan screwed McNabb, when asked how you pointed everyone back to the statements from the press conference. The statement does explain how McNabb failed but not how he was screwed by Shanny

I guess DMc is about to be screwed again, at worst there's a bus headed his way....

Stop us if you’ve read this story before.

Coaches have identified some mechanical issues with Donovan McNabb they hope to get corrected. McNabb doesn’t seem overly interested. He was asked if he saw anything on tape he needs to change.

“No,” McNabb said via Tom Pelissero of espn1500.cm.

But the Minnesota Vikings' veteran quarterback bristled on Wednesday when asked if he saw anything on tape that needs to change.

"No," McNabb said. "I think the thing about it, just when you're critical of yourself and your play, you just look at your reads, you look at how fast you can get the ball out. I think obviously footwork and things like that, but that's not just my position -- that's from everyone.

"As a quarterback, when you're watching yourself, you're going through everything. It's not just mechanics. It's ball placement, it's 'is it the right read,' things like that."

Through three games this season, McNabb ranks 24th among qualifying NFL passers in completion percentage (58.0%), 26th in passer rating (78.1), 27th in yards per attempt (5.9) and 30th in passing yards (159.3).

He threw 10 uncatchable passes in Sunday's loss to Detroit -- the Vikings' third straight to open the season -- and has only one completion longer than 24 yards, on a screen halfback Toby Gerhart took for 42 yards on Sept. 18 against Tampa Bay.

"Sometimes, you anticipate throws, or if you have pressure in your face, whatever it may be, you try to anticipate it -- especially versus man coverage," McNabb said. "You want to have the ball out before the DB even turns his head around and give your guy an opportunity. Some throws you just miss.

"For me, again, just evaluating myself and just watching each and every week, if it's over-striding on the throw, if it's trying to put it outside when the receiver's taking a step inside, whatever it may be, but those things definitely can be corrected and I look forward to it being corrected."

that's NOT GOOD for ol D Mac

the Vikes might be looking at the future QB sooner than they thought

SkinsJock wrote:that's NOT GOOD for ol D Mac

the Vikes might be looking at the future QB sooner than they thought

They drafted Ponder

Vikings turn attention to Donovan McNabb’s mechanics as QB struggles

The Minnesota Vikings, winless after three second-half collapses , are looking to change things up by — Washingtonians have heard this one before — reworking some of quarterback Donovan McNabb’s mechanics.

McNabb’s struggles — he has thrown one pass longer than 24 yards — fuel speculation about when the Christian Ponder era might begin, but Coach Leslie Frazier said that moment hasn’t arrived.

“Whether it be his drops or whether it be the footwork, whatever we need to do to help improve some of those balls that aren't quite on target,” Frazier said Monday (via TwinCities.com). “That's not the only reason we're falling short. That's one of the reasons; there were some other things we've got to work on as a team. Specifically to Donovan, consistent play at the position is what you're always looking for.”

Fat Al is lazy, out of shape, and takes plays off with the Pats.
McNugget has questionable mechanics and refuses to work on them with the Vikings.

Who could have seen that coming ?

What is at stake with the conditional 6th round pick (I know the other 6th rounder is safe)? Do we lose it altogehter if Donovan falters or does it go down to a 7th?

Is there anybody out there that still believes that Shanny devalued Donovan?

how DARE the Vikings try and alter Donny Mac's mechanics! He is God's gift to football and to ask him to change is an offense to the almighty himself! They should be make McNabb player/president and CEO!