The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

reo wrote:As a Titans fan, I have to say you guys don't want VY.

He played well his rookie year in a drastically simplified 1 read and go offense. Teams tried to play him like they played Vick w/ a spy and man coverage and he was able to beat it reasonably well in large part b/c he ran a lot. He struggled once they switched to more zones b/c he can't read defenses worth a crap and he won't put in the effort to learn in part b/c he's dumb as a box of rocks (6 on the wonderlic before his agent got him a do over).

After his rookie season the Titans brought back 'Dinger who was known as a very good vertical offensive OC. He's the guy that coached McNair up and got him his co-MVP season w/ Manning. So what's VY do? he goes back to Houston in the offseason to hang out on campus and party w/ coeds instead of sticking in Nashville and learning the new offense and getting to know his new OC, all the while doing an interview where he proclaims "can't no body teach me nothing."

Shockingly he struggles his 2nd year and the Titans win b/c of a dominate defense (new contract seeking Haynesworth) despite his 17picks and 10 fumbles. They make it to the playoffs and play the Chargers and during the game, while they were winning, he refuses to go back in and asks to be taken out b/c he's playing badly. Fisher forces him back in the game and they lose.

The next season is the beginning of the end for VY. Week 1, he again has a mental breakdown and refuses to go back into the game b/c he's playing badly and the crowd boos him. Fisher again forces him back into the game and he's injured the next play (legitimately injured) leading to him skipping the MRI the next day and his mom calls Fisher in the middle of the night b/c VY left the house w/ a gun thus "suicide watch" begins as they get the cops to track him down. After that he's benched and KC takes us to the playoffs.

The titans have some bad breaks early and then injuries and poor defensive play lead to an 0-6 start and the owner forcing Fisher to start VY again. Vy plays decently against poor teams w/ everyone playing 9 in the box about every play vs CJ, leading everyone to think he might possibly turn the corner... soon after he proclaims himself as an "elite" QB.

And then last year, he plays decently again in a very simple offense as the titans obviously try to hide him (very few pass attempts per game) and every team again loading the box vs CJ (denver admitted to blitzing both their OLBs on every play). After about half way through he's injured yet again. And then after the bye vs Miami when he's suppose to be ready, he doesn't even give it an effort. professing that he's still injured and can't go... Fisher still makes him the #2. KC gets injured and VY is forced in the game and runs around like he's perfeclty healthy.

Then comes the game against you guys iirc where he's legitimately injured again. we've got video via NFLN of the trainer informing Fisher that VY can't grip the ball and that he's accuracy is all over the place. after the game, VY throws his pads into the stands, tells off the head coach and walks out on the team in the middle of the post game meeting in the locker room. Multiple players tried to stop him from walking out but couldn't. This is when it really blows up and VY is done and everyone knows it.

during the offseason the owner has multiple meetings as multiple staff and players try to convince him that VY needs to go. suppossedly even a lot of players stepped up and begged the owner to release VY due to him being unprofessional, immature and having a very poor work ethic. this is also when it comes out how badly prepared he is. during steelers week that season, he skipped meetings to take McNair's kids out and obviously wasn't prepared (he got benched after 2 picks and 2 fumbles in about a quarter of play). CJ even came out and said that on one play the protection scheme VY called for a play didn't match the formation and when he tried to tell VY this, VY told him to shut up and get in formation... the resulting sack/fumble is on nfl.com and you can see CJ desperately trying to get over and block the OLB coming free on the blitz.


So yeah, that's VY. he's a very talented immature mental midget w/ a very poor work ethic who thinks he's an "elite" QB. trust me.. you guys don't want him.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

The gist of the argument was Plummer (Arizone rating 69.0) became a better QB under Shanahan (Denver rating 84.3). Vince's completion percentage is better than pre-shanny plummer and Vince's 42 TD's to 42 Ints is far better than Jake's 90 TD's to 114 Ints. Vince is more athletic than Jake. Vince's career rating is 75.7 as compared to Jake's 69.0 with Arizona. The author is saying that Vince who has a winning record as a starter might see a similar growth in the right situation ( as is true with pretty much anyone in the right fit). Whether or not it is with Shanny is another story.

Plummer didn't actually improve all that much when he went to Denver. His 2001 season with the Cardinals is pretty comparable to what he did in Denver. He also had a better supporting cast in Denver than he did in Arizona which likely can be attributed to the marginal increase in performance. His biggest problem was always inconsistency, which was a problem both in Arizona and Denver.

Clearly, Vick is a better quarterback with Philly than with Atlanta.

Obviously

Vick's completion pct last year of 62.6. was way over his Falcon average 53.8. Young's career average is 58.6. Vick Philly INT pct - 1.6. Falcon INT %3.0. Vince 3.5%. Vick's Falcon rating - 75.7 Young 75.7 (If 75% sucks for Vince then it sucked for the pre -prison Vick). Vick Falcon starter's record 38-28-1 (58%). Young's starter record 30-17 (64.8%). Vick Philly 2011 rating 100.2. Young 2011- 98. 6. Based on Stats alone, that's a tough argument that Vince Sucked and pre-prison Vick didn't.

You're cherry picking stats. Nobody is going to dispute that Vick didn't have a high completion percentage in Atlanta, but he was a far more effective qb and a more dangerous player than Young ever has been or ever will be. The most tds that Young has ever accounted for in a season is 19. Other than his rookie season, when he only started 3 games, and 2003, when he was hurt and missed most of the season, Vick scored more than 20 tds each year. Young has never once done that. Only once in Atlanta did Vick have more int's than tds and that was his rookie year when he had 3 and 2, respectively. In 3 of his 5 seasons Young has had more int's than tds.

And you completely ignored that which made Vick most dangerous, his scrambling ability. Young had 552 rushing yards his rookie year and hasn't come close to matching that again. In each of his full seasons in Atlanta Vick topped that easily. 777 yards in 2002, 902 in 2004, 597 in 2005, and 1039 in 2006.

Young is going to have trouble finding any job in the NFL this year, let alone a starting job. Teams would've been lining up to give Vick a starting qb job, by comparison, if Atlanta had decided to cut him at any time before the dog fighting and subsequent prison term.

Kurt Warner from 2002 - 2006 was 8 -23 - 0 as a starter and 27 TDs and 30 Ints. His first year under Wisenhunt (2007) his TD/Int ratio was 27/17. Before, Wisenhunt, Warner's career was over. Right coach comes around, Warner is back to his old days. Warner might be going to the Hall of Fame, but we might not be talking Hall of Fame for Warner, if not for Wisenhunt, or another other coach that fit, becoming his head coach.

Honestly, this is some of the biggest bunch of nonsense I've read on this board in a while. Warner struggled in the seasons that you mentioned because he was constantly injured. In 2002 in broke a finger on his throwing hand; in 2003 he had a broken hand; and in 2005 he tore his MCL.

In 2004 he actually played well for the Giants (86.5 qb rating) but during the season they decided to have Eli Manning start. You know, the guy that was drafted first overall.

Likewise, in 2006 he was playing well (89.3 qb rating) but the Cardinals wanted to give their supposed qb of the future, Leinart, a shot.

So even in all of the bad seasons that you cite for Warner, only twice was his qb rating under 85, and that was in 2002 and 2003 when he started a total of 7 games.

Wisenhunt didn't all of a sudden turn Warner back into a top qb. He got healthy and was given a chance to be the full-time starter again. He would have been equally as productive as the last few years in 2004, 2005, and 2006 if he had played full seasons. Any comparison of the Young situation to Warner is stupid and not based in reality.

Canes wrote:
No, it isn't Vick didn't suck before he went to prison and Warner is most likely going into the Hall of Fame. All his personality issues and off the field problems aside, Vince Young sucks as a quarterback. 1-1 td:int ratio and a career 75 qb rating. Vick had his fair share of issues as a passer but he is a much bigger threat with his legs that Young.

Plummer didn't actually improve all that much when he went to Denver. His 2001 season with the Cardinals is pretty comparable to what he did in Denver. He also had a better supporting cast in Denver than he did in Arizona which likely can be attributed to the marginal increase in performance. His biggest problem was always inconsistency, which was a problem both in Arizona and Denver.

Plummer didn't improve "all that much" you said. That is purely an opinion statement that cannot be quantified. It is not backed up by stats like the author. 2001? You cherry picked that year. The author looked at the entire career. Better supporting cast in Denver? True, that would account for some of the improvement, but how much of the improvement is due to that is not measurable. Since Shanny put the supporting cast together, that point goes to the author IMO. Again, you say "marginal" but the author's stats say otherwise. And I point out a 15.3 increase in QB rating which also says not a marginal increase. Inconsistency? You and the author agree on this. You didn't use any stats to back up your argument on plummer. Doesn't mean you are wrong, but your argument here, is not supported with anything other than an opinion which fails to counter the author's argument.

Where we don't agree is, I believe that the author had good support for his argument that Shanny helped Jake improve and that a player in the right place and time can flourish.

We also don't agree on whether or not pre-prison Vick was a good QB. I agree with you that he didn't suck, but your use of the 75 rating as an indicator of a QB that sucks supports, at least, my view that pre-prison Vick was not a good QB.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Where we don't agree is, I believe that the author had good support for his argument that Shanny helped Jake improve and that a player in the right place and time can flourish.

I never said that a player can't flourish in the right place. I just don't think that Plummer in Denver is a good example, and I certainly don't think that Young would flourish here.

We also don't agree on whether or not pre-prison Vick was a good QB. I agree with you that he didn't suck, but your use of the 75 rating as an indicator of a QB that sucks supports, at least, my view that pre-prison Vick was not a good QB.

If Vick wasn't such a threat with his legs back then I would agree that the 75 qb rating would support the argument that he was not a good qb. However, considering what Vick brought to the table with his running ability, combined with what he did in the passing game, made him a good qb. His last year with the Falcons, for example, he accounted for over 3,500 yards and 22 td's; those aren't the stats a bad qb.

His last year with the Falcons, for example, he accounted for over 3,500 yards and 22 td's; those aren't the stats a bad qb