The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Rice and/or Edwards. Corner help.

brad7686 wrote:Rice and/or Edwards. Corner help.

If we resign Moss (I am confident we will), we shouldn't sign any other WR's. Focus on positions of greater need.

yupchagee wrote:

brad7686 wrote:Rice and/or Edwards. Corner help.

If we resign Moss (I am confident we will), we shouldn't sign any other WR's. Focus on positions of greater need.

+1

Chris Luva Luva wrote:- Vince Young will be acquired if Tenn drops him.
- Rogers will stay, Redskins will pay.

These two were just to test if anyone was actually reading your post, right?

yupchagee wrote:

brad7686 wrote:Rice and/or Edwards. Corner help.

If we resign Moss (I am confident we will), we shouldn't sign any other WR's. Focus on positions of greater need.

I am with you in not making a big expenditure here if we keep moss, but I'd like us to look at some mid-tier receivers.

Red_One43 wrote:Trade McNabb to Minnesota - conditional draft choice
Attempt to trade Haynesworth.

Re-sign Moss
Resign Brown

Punter - Sam Koch (Ravens) College Nebraska - Let's keep the Cornhusker thing going in FA.

QB - young, low cost, journeyman vet, who Kyle thinks might be a fit for his offense.

DE - Cullen Jenkins - good in both 3-4 and 4-3. Can play in all our D schemes

NT- Kris Jenkins (Brother of Cullen - hopefully a two for one deal ) - Best pass rush NT available - play primarily on pass downs. Franklin made $7 million last year. Love to have him but costs too much for a guy who is only a two down NT. Bryant should fill run stuffer bill at a much lower cost.

WR- Nobody
RB - Nobody
C- Nobody - Montgomery should be our center

G- Carl Nicks and Harvey Dahl

T- Ryan Harris if Brown does not re-sign

LB - Stephen Tulloch (26 years old)- move from MLB to ILB - Very high grades against run and pass. Future leader of the D when Fletcher retires.

CB - Make a play for Asomugha - drive up the cost and bail. Brent Grimes. He can catch the ball and cover.

With Kris Jenkins retiring:

I make two changes:

NT - Ian Williams and Blaine Sumner (Undrafted free agents)
Kelly Gregg (Ravens probably will release him)
Let Maake, Bryant and all of them compete for the NT spots.

If we were on the verge of winning, I would say Aubrayo Franklin but at $7 million last year and him being the only viable NT out there. Bidding for him will be too costly. Compare to Casey Hampton's contract:

Below are the details of the 3-year, $21.3 million dollar contract that nose tackle Casey Hampton signed with the Pittsburgh Steelers earlier this week:

Signing bonus: $6.5 million dollars

Base salaries

2010: $4M
2011: $4.9M
2012: $5.9M

$11 million, or 51.6% of the deal, is guaranteed.

http://www.macsfootballblog.com/2010/02 ... etter.html

DE - Stephen Bowen

Without the supposed discount for Cullen and his brother, go with younger and less expensive guy with a strong upside. (Jenkins made$3.2 million last year). Dallas will put up a fight to keep Bowen, but they are over the cap.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

yupchagee wrote:

brad7686 wrote:Rice and/or Edwards. Corner help.

If we resign Moss (I am confident we will), we shouldn't sign any other WR's. Focus on positions of greater need.

I am with you in not making a big expenditure here if we keep moss, but I'd like us to look at some mid-tier receivers.

Agreed. While we drafted Hankerson, without OTAs its going to be difficult for him to contribute much this year. They had Roddy White on NFL Live last night and he was talking about how far behind Julio Jones is going to be in the learning process because of the lack of OTAs.

Red_One43 wrote:Let's keep the Cornhusker thing going in FA.

speaking of ....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/w ... index.html

C- Nobody - Montgomery should be our center

You got that right!

CB - Make a play for Asomugha - drive up the cost and bail.

I love this!

DarthMonk

DarthMonk wrote:

Red_One43 wrote:Let's keep the Cornhusker thing going in FA.

speaking of ....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/w ... index.html

DarthMonk

Certainly a great read! If this guy's lfe was a movie and I watched it, I would have thought he was a fictional character. That is amazing that someone can do the things he accomplished and is still accomplishing. I suspect his work ethic has rubbed off on a lot of Nebraska players. After reading this article, I am expecting more out of our draftees from Nebraska.

Why is everybody against getting a premier receiver? We play the same game every year, blame the qb when he has no targets. At least if we brought some good people in we would know if our qb's actually stink.

brad7686 wrote:Why is everybody against getting a premier receiver? We play the same game every year, blame the qb when he has no targets. At least if we brought some good people in we would know if our qb's actually stink.

What QB

brad7686 wrote:Why is everybody against getting a premier receiver? We play the same game every year, blame the qb when he has no targets. At least if we brought some good people in we would no if our qb's actually stink.

My reasons are receivers are very risky in free agency.

1. Too Risky - Example - Sidney Rice - only one good year. He is coming off an injury. He had Bret Farve throwing to him that year. Was it Favre or was it Sidney? or a combination of both? Regardless, it is a big question mark. Is Sidney a fit in this offense? Risks on premium receivers should be taken when the team is set and is looking for one or two pieces to make the team even more competitive - like the Jets going after Edwards and Holmes. They had been in the AFC Championship the year before and then they piacked up two risky premium receivers.

2. Not a priority - Example Santonio Holmes. Holmes seemed to put his troubles behind him and seems to be a sure thing, but in only year 2 of the Shanny plan. A Big bucks receiver is not a priority. We have a stable of young receivers that we can begin developing this year and growing in our system. It wouldnot hurt to pursue him, but if others are driving the price up, it is not a priority in year 2 of a long range plan.

3. Unproven QBs - True, a good receiver can make a unproven QB look good but the priority for an unproven QB like Beck is protection and a running game. That all starts with the O line. If the QB can't get the ball to the receiver then all that money spent is not maximized.

4. Defense is a priority for this team - a solid turnover, producing defense can help out a struggling offense quite a bit by providing a short field often. Playmaking defensive linemen are sorely needed.

I am not opposed to signing a receiver as long as he is not a diva and doesn't command a premium salary. We are a developing team trying to establish an identity - NO Divas! Signing a second tier wideout with a good work ethic is fine by me.

Red_One43 wrote:

brad7686 wrote:Why is everybody against getting a premier receiver? We play the same game every year, blame the qb when he has no targets. At least if we brought some good people in we would no if our qb's actually stink.

My reasons are receivers are very risky in free agency.

1. Too Risky - Example - Sidney Rice - only one good year. He is coming off an injury. He had Bret Farve throwing to him that year. Was it Favre or was it Sidney? or a combination of both? Regardless, it is a big question mark. Is Sidney a fit in this offense? Risks on premium receivers should be taken when the team is set and is looking for one or two pieces to make the team even more competitive - like the Jets going after Edwards and Holmes. They had been in the AFC Championship the year before and then they piacked up two risky premium receivers.

2. Not a priority - Example Santonio Holmes. Holmes seemed to put his troubles behind him and seems to be a sure thing, but in only year 2 of the Shanny plan. A Big bucks receiver is not a priority. We have a stable of young receivers that we can begin developing this year and growing in our system. It wouldnot hurt to pursue him, but if others are driving the price up, it is not a priority in year 2 of a long range plan.

3. Unproven QBs - True, a good receiver can make a unproven QB look good but the priority for an unproven QB like Beck is protection and a running game. That all starts with the O line. If the QB can't get the ball to the receiver then all that money spent is not maximized.

4. Defense is a priority for this team - a solid turnover, producing defense can help out a struggling offense quite a bit by providing a short field often. Playmaking defensive linemen are sorely needed.

I am not opposed to signing a receiver as long as he is not a diva and doesn't command a premium salary. We are a developing team trying to establish an identity - NO Divas! Signing a second tier wideout with a good work ethic is fine by me.

I don't consider Rice a question mark at all aside from possible injury. He's dominated games with Tarvaris at the helm. Edwards is a gamble but he'll at least be a deep threat.

brad7686 wrote:Why is everybody against getting a premier receiver? We play the same game every year, blame the qb when he has no targets. At least if we brought some good people in we would know if our qb's actually stink.

Because, with both time & money being limited resources, we should concentrate on higher priorities, such as NT, CB & interior OL.

brad7686 wrote:

Red_One43 wrote:

brad7686 wrote:Why is everybody against getting a premier receiver? We play the same game every year, blame the qb when he has no targets. At least if we brought some good people in we would no if our qb's actually stink.

My reasons are receivers are very risky in free agency.

1. Too Risky - Example - Sidney Rice - only one good year. He is coming off an injury. He had Bret Farve throwing to him that year. Was it Favre or was it Sidney? or a combination of both? Regardless, it is a big question mark. Is Sidney a fit in this offense? Risks on premium receivers should be taken when the team is set and is looking for one or two pieces to make the team even more competitive - like the Jets going after Edwards and Holmes. They had been in the AFC Championship the year before and then they piacked up two risky premium receivers.

2. Not a priority - Example Santonio Holmes. Holmes seemed to put his troubles behind him and seems to be a sure thing, but in only year 2 of the Shanny plan. A Big bucks receiver is not a priority. We have a stable of young receivers that we can begin developing this year and growing in our system. It wouldnot hurt to pursue him, but if others are driving the price up, it is not a priority in year 2 of a long range plan.

3. Unproven QBs - True, a good receiver can make a unproven QB look good but the priority for an unproven QB like Beck is protection and a running game. That all starts with the O line. If the QB can't get the ball to the receiver then all that money spent is not maximized.

4. Defense is a priority for this team - a solid turnover, producing defense can help out a struggling offense quite a bit by providing a short field often. Playmaking defensive linemen are sorely needed.

I am not opposed to signing a receiver as long as he is not a diva and doesn't command a premium salary. We are a developing team trying to establish an identity - NO Divas! Signing a second tier wideout with a good work ethic is fine by me.

I don't consider Rice a question mark at all aside from possible injury. He's dominated games with Tarvaris at the helm. Edwards is a gamble but he'll at least be a deep threat.

You might be right about Rice. He is not a diva. He has the attributes that a coaches covet. He might be be a good fit, so for you, you eliminated my 1st reason. I think your reasoning is sound, but are you prepared to pay the big bucks that it will take to get him which means you might not be able to pay the big bucks to get what is needed for the O line, D line, CB, and possibly a playmaking inside linebacker. I would love Rice, but the WR position is not a priority this year for the big bucks. Plus, we drafted some young receivers that we might be steals in this draft - I know, there is that "might" word, but they are much cheaper than any premium receiver.

Edwards is a deep threat, but I have a problem with because he has too much baggage and drops a lot of balls. I would not pay big bucks for him.

Let's just get a legit DT and be done with it. So what if it costs some money, we have plenty of cap space and it's a NECESSARY position. It'll have a ripple effect and make things easier for everyone behind him.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Let's just get a legit DT and be done with it. So what if it costs some money, we have plenty of cap space and it's a NECESSARY position. It'll have a ripple effect and make things easier for everyone behind him.

If the Skins were in a position to make a play-off run this year, you go with that philosophy, but when you are building for the long run, there are many questions to consider.

Do you want to overpay a 31 year old NT?
Do you want to pay a NT tackle who is not a stud more than your own studs just because the NT pool is extremely weak?
Are there options in the draft next and free agency next year?
Are there options to stop gap the position this year and get close to the production, if not equal or better?
Can I get him and still get the true studs that I want?

Look at Franklin, the only true NT on the free agency market as of right now. If you sign him, he should solve our NT problems for at least the next 2 - 3 years, but over paying him can also cause long term problems. Last time we went after a D lineman coming off great contract years, as his only great years .... well, you know the story. Lets, also, not forget that last 49er D Lineman that we overpayed from SF that came off a great year - Initials D.S.

I agree it is a NECESSARY position. I am all for paying studs the big bucks in a position of need. If that stud NT is out there, then pay him.

Stop gap options - Bryant is an upgrade over an injured, aging Kemoeatu, so that is a start, but I doubt that he is the answer as a full time starter. He is a run stuffer and weak at the pass. Perhaps, Neild can be that pass rushing NT. Perhpas there is an undrafted free agent on the radar.

Kris Jenkins not being able to play probably put a dent into our NT plans.

Aubrayo Franklin, NT, 49ers. Age: 31.
Aubrayo Franklin is coming off great back-to-back years - but he's never played this well when not in a contract season. As I wrote last year, caveat emptor (Buyer Beware).

http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2011DT.php

1. Aubrayo Franklin, San Francisco 49ers

Age as of 1st September 2011: 31

2010 Grade: +15.5

Key Stat: 37 defensive stops. Third most of all defensive tackles.

Behind The Numbers: Let’s be honest, there are not enough quality nose tackles in the league right now, so good ones are all the more valuable. Franklin isn’t a one gap nose tackle that is all the rage, but a true prototypical, run stuffing, gobble up running backs two gapper. He’s not going to get after the passer, but when you can anchor a line like Franklin you really don’t need to.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20 ... -3-4-ends/

Red_One43 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Let's just get a legit DT and be done with it. So what if it costs some money, we have plenty of cap space and it's a NECESSARY position. It'll have a ripple effect and make things easier for everyone behind him.

If the Skins were in a position to make a play-off run this year, you go with that philosophy, but when you are building for the long run, there are many questions to consider.

Do you want to overpay a 31 year old NT?
Do you want to pay a NT tackle who is not a stud more than your own studs just because the NT pool is extremely weak?
Are there options in the draft next and free agency next year?
Are there options to stop gap the position this year and get close to the production, if not equal or better?
Can I get him and still get the true studs that I want?

Look at Franklin, the only true NT on the free agency market as of right now. If you sign him, he should solve our NT problems for at least the next 2 - 3 years, but over paying him can also cause long term problems. Last time we went after a D lineman coming off great contract years, as his only great years .... well, you know the story. Lets, also, not forget that last 49er D Lineman that we overpayed from SF that came off a great year - Initials D.S.

I agree it is a NECESSARY position. I am all for paying studs the big bucks in a position of need. If that stud NT is out there, then pay him.

Stop gap options - Bryant is an upgrade over an injured, aging Kemoeatu, so that is a start, but I doubt that he is the answer as a full time starter. He is a run stuffer and weak at the pass. Perhaps, Neild can be that pass rushing NT. Perhpas there is an undrafted free agent on the radar.

Kris Jenkins not being able to play probably put a dent into our NT plans.

Aubrayo Franklin, NT, 49ers. Age: 31.
Aubrayo Franklin is coming off great back-to-back years - but he's never played this well when not in a contract season. As I wrote last year, caveat emptor (Buyer Beware).

http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2011DT.php

1. Aubrayo Franklin, San Francisco 49ers

Age as of 1st September 2011: 31

2010 Grade: +15.5

Key Stat: 37 defensive stops. Third most of all defensive tackles.

Behind The Numbers: Let’s be honest, there are not enough quality nose tackles in the league right now, so good ones are all the more valuable. Franklin isn’t a one gap nose tackle that is all the rage, but a true prototypical, run stuffing, gobble up running backs two gapper. He’s not going to get after the passer, but when you can anchor a line like Franklin you really don’t need to.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20 ... -3-4-ends/

Bryant will turn 30 during the season. He has played in 15 games with 6 starts.

Franklin has started 47 games in the last 3 years.

If we can get Franklin, we should.

yupchagee wrote:

Red_One43 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Let's just get a legit DT and be done with it. So what if it costs some money, we have plenty of cap space and it's a NECESSARY position. It'll have a ripple effect and make things easier for everyone behind him.

If the Skins were in a position to make a play-off run this year, you go with that philosophy, but when you are building for the long run, there are many questions to consider.

Do you want to overpay a 31 year old NT?
Do you want to pay a NT tackle who is not a stud more than your own studs just because the NT pool is extremely weak?
Are there options in the draft next and free agency next year?
Are there options to stop gap the position this year and get close to the production, if not equal or better?
Can I get him and still get the true studs that I want?

Look at Franklin, the only true NT on the free agency market as of right now. If you sign him, he should solve our NT problems for at least the next 2 - 3 years, but over paying him can also cause long term problems. Last time we went after a D lineman coming off great contract years, as his only great years .... well, you know the story. Lets, also, not forget that last 49er D Lineman that we overpayed from SF that came off a great year - Initials D.S.

I agree it is a NECESSARY position. I am all for paying studs the big bucks in a position of need. If that stud NT is out there, then pay him.

Stop gap options - Bryant is an upgrade over an injured, aging Kemoeatu, so that is a start, but I doubt that he is the answer as a full time starter. He is a run stuffer and weak at the pass. Perhaps, Neild can be that pass rushing NT. Perhpas there is an undrafted free agent on the radar.

Kris Jenkins not being able to play probably put a dent into our NT plans.

Aubrayo Franklin, NT, 49ers. Age: 31.
Aubrayo Franklin is coming off great back-to-back years - but he's never played this well when not in a contract season. As I wrote last year, caveat emptor (Buyer Beware).

http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2011DT.php

1. Aubrayo Franklin, San Francisco 49ers

Age as of 1st September 2011: 31

2010 Grade: +15.5

Key Stat: 37 defensive stops. Third most of all defensive tackles.

Behind The Numbers: Let’s be honest, there are not enough quality nose tackles in the league right now, so good ones are all the more valuable. Franklin isn’t a one gap nose tackle that is all the rage, but a true prototypical, run stuffing, gobble up running backs two gapper. He’s not going to get after the passer, but when you can anchor a line like Franklin you really don’t need to.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20 ... -3-4-ends/

Bryant will turn 30 during the season. He has played in 15 games with 6 starts.

Franklin has started 47 games in the last 3 years.

If we can get Franklin, we should.

If Allen can work his contract magic with Franklin like he did with Atogwe, then yes, we should sign him. He is definitely an upgrade over Bryant who would have to be part of a committee of NTs.

The key provision is a fully guaranteed $6.5 million roster bonus to be paid on the fifth day of the 2011 league year along with a base salary of $900,000 (Red's Note* OJ was scheduled to make $3.5 million for 2011 salary with the Rams), also guaranteed. As currently structured that will mean that $7.4 million of the guaranteed money will go against the 2011 salary cap.

Another $2 million of Atogwe’s 2012 salary is guaranteed against injury, making a total of $9.4 million in guaranteed money. Early reports said that the deal had $12 million guaranteed...

The way Atogwe’s contract is structured, the Redskins would be able to release or trade him in the latter years of the deal should his productivity decline and incur no dead cap charges in the process.

This was something of a concern as Atogwe is 30, an age where a player’s production can start to go downhill.

Atogwe’s base salary will be $3.4 million in 2012 and 2013, $3.6 million on 2014 and $3.7 million in 2015. Roster and workout bonuses boost the base portion of the deal to $26 million and escalator clauses could raise the total value to $31.8 million.

OJ was scheduled to make $3.5 million for 2011, but settles for $900,000 in salary with us, but makes it up with a front loaded roster bonus. Since the roster bonus is all paid up front, he won't be dead cap space should he be released. Rightfully so, Franklin should get a larger bonus because he is the only legit NT out there, right now. OJs cap hit this year will be $7.4 million that's $3.9 more than he would have made with the Rams this year.

So, if Allen can work out a similar type of deal with Franklin, I am all for it.

Red_One43 wrote:..Kris Jenkins not being able to play probably put a dent into our NT plans.

I seriously doubt that - these guys don't strike me as having even casual thoughts about a future NT - EVEN for a short time - that was thought to be so injury prone that he is now going to retire

we have a much better group in charge here now than we used to

SkinsJock wrote:

Red_One43 wrote:..Kris Jenkins not being able to play probably put a dent into our NT plans.

I seriously doubt that - these guys don't strike me as having even casual thoughts about a future NT - EVEN for a short time - that was thought to be so injury prone that he is now going to retire

we have a much better group in charge here now than we used to

Let me restate that.

Kris Jenkins not being able to play actually put a dent into Red's NT plans for "What Would Your Game Plan Be?"

It was reported, before the lockout that Kris met with the Redskins. That would seem to show some sort of interest or maybe it was just to lure his brother.

It made sense to me, because Kris can rush the passer from his NT position and there is nobody else out there in free agency who can. We would be asking him to be a package NT and certainly wouldn't have paid him a lot of money. He wouldn't have played except for passing downs. An injury prone guy might be able to handle that.

I understand your point Red but I don't think that this franchise is taking on players like this anymore

we are rebuilding and while they did add Brown - I think they thought they could use him for long enough to replace most of that O line

We picked up a has-been QB, why not a has-been NT as well?

VetSkinsFan wrote:We picked up a has-been QB, why not a has-been NT as well?

So you think that we'll continue to see this FO and these coaches continue to make mistakes? good luck with that

I think that what we'll see here is a continuation of bringing in younger guys and players that suit what we want to do offensively and defensively - I think these guys are rebuilding this team and Kris Jenkins did not offer enough

I just prefer to think that this FO and the coaches are going to CONTINUE to improve this team and not make the mistakes they made in the past

that's just me