Mike Shanahan - Bruce Allen Bandwagon

[Deadskins]

I am now, and have always been on the Redskins' bandwagon, but I have my doubts about the BA/MS team, and am not ready to get on that bandwagon. Obviously, being the GM/HC, I wish for the best, but I have seen too many questionable moves to be willing to say I support what they are doing without reservation.

[Deadskins]

And as for discipline, I was in favor of the Marty Shottenheimer firing because I thought he was a horses rear. But Shannahan's just a different story. He respects his players, and he demands they respect him.

That's the difference. Marty earned their respect, Shanahan demands it.

On Shannahan, that's just word gamesmanship and I see no evidence other then AH anyone fails to respect him and I see no evidence AH respects anyone. But as for Marty, the most grizzled veterans said he wouldn't explain what he wanted, he just said what to do. Darryl Green said he treated him like a rookie. That's not "earning" respect.

Darryl was a great player, but he felt, at that point in his career, that he was above coaching and took offense to Marty trying to teach him something. Personally, I think Darryl was wrong; you're never too old or too good to learn or better yourself. I'm not sure why you have such a grudge against Marty, but I feel that if he had not been fired, we would have been one of the top tier teams all these years since.

[NYFINESTSKINSFAN]

I am now, and have always been on the Redskins' bandwagon, but I have my doubts about the BA/MS team, and am not ready to get on that bandwagon. Obviously, being the GM/HC, I wish for the best, but I have seen too many questionable moves to be willing to say I support what they are doing without reservation.

That is why I hope this season was a learning experience and will understand what this team needs to be successful.

[KazooSkinsFan]

I haven't seen anything positive. Spent a lot of money on a failed 3-4 defense, trading draft picks away, ignoring glaring offensive needs. Why bandwagon yet? Because he suspended someone he should have cut or put up with? And what about that whole grossman debacle? Other than Armstrong and Banks there hasn't been a lot to praise.

Cowboys, Eagles, Packers, Colts, Titans as well as very close versus Texans and Colts. We have a class act at QB, a replacement for our franchise LT. Our OL is improved over last year when he had nothing left to work with. We're seeing young life at WR and RB which we hadn't under the entire Zorn experiment. We've cleaned house of aging vets. And you see nothing positive? Get real.

[CanesSkins26]

Cowboys, Eagles, Packers, Colts, Titans as well as very close versus Texans and Colts.

The Colts are 6-6, Texans 5-7, Cowboys 4-8, Titans 5-7. We beat the Eagles without McNabb. The Packers win has been the only impressive win imho.

We also lost to the 2-10 Lions.

There hasn't been a single game so far this season where we have seen a complete game from this team, and by that I mean good quality football for two halves.

We have a class act at QB

A class act, yes. But one that is 34 years old, cost us two draft picks, has no experience with this system, and who looks hurt.

a replacement for our franchise LT

Agreed

Our OL is improved over last year when he had nothing left to work with.

Agreed

We're seeing young life at WR and RB which we hadn't under the entire Zorn experiment.

I don't really agree with this. None of our young rb's, including Torrain, are anything special. They are playing because they have too, not because they are any good. None of the rb's on our roster is anything better than a 2nd or probably 3rd stringer.

On the wr side, Armstrong has shown potential so I agree with you there.

We've cleaned house of aging vets.

I strongly disagree with this. In the offseason while we did get rid of some aging vets, we brought in more. Holliday, McNabb, Brown, Kemoatu. Buchanon, Grossman, Larry Johnson, Willie Parker, etc. Each of those players is over the age of 30. We still have one of, if not the oldest roster in the NFL, and with the trades we made now have fewer draft picks.

[HEROHAMO]

Ill put it this way.

I am with BA and MS for suspending Haynesworth. They tried to make things work but it just didn't happen.

However, Mike has been no where near perfect. I still question whether we are utilizing all our talent properly especially on offense. For example Fred Davis is a big play machine when he gets his hands on the ball yet he rarely sees the field. Sure we have ey but that doesn't mean we cant have some double tight end sets.

We lack talent at the wide receiver positions. So you have to maximize the weapons you do have. Fred Davis being one of them. No excuse for this other then disciplinary reasons in which I have seen no evidence to suggest such.

Here is to a promising future. I do love the fact that we have Mcnabb. Mcnabb is still a good QB. Once we get some more depth and offensive line and some wide receivers we will be good.

[skins2357]

We wont lack talent at WR when we sign Vincent Jackson. Jones and Kevin Walter in the offseason

[markshark84]

I am a bottom line guy. I want to see wins before I get on the bandwagon. MS/BA have already given up 2 draft picks in this upcoming draft -- something I am not happy about.

The fact that MS basically kicked the most talented (albeit a lockeroom cancer) off the team doesn't make me 100% for them. They need to show me a little more than that before I start kissing their behinds and calling them saviors.

They took a step in the right direction, but a HC and GMs legacies are defined by WINS. I want a consistent winner before I can call them a success.

I'm not a real huge fan of the draft as a means to build a team. I'm also not a huge fan of rookies. Something tells me I'm going to have to get over those prejudices in order to stay on this bandwagon.

Then you also must not be a fan of dynasties. I like drafting key players, signing them to 7 year deals and building around them. That is basically how all major dynasties have done it in the past.

I don't want a one year wonder like TB who won with a FA QB. Honestly, I don't know of any perennial winners that haven't done it outside the draft.

[markshark84]

Ill put it this way.

I am with BA and MS for suspending Haynesworth. They tried to make things work but it just didn't happen.

However, Mike has been no where near perfect. I still question whether we are utilizing all our talent properly especially on offense. For example Fred Davis is a big play machine when he gets his hands on the ball yet he rarely sees the field. Sure we have ey but that doesn't mean we cant have some double tight end sets.

We lack talent at the wide receiver positions. So you have to maximize the weapons you do have. Fred Davis being one of them. No excuse for this other then disciplinary reasons in which I have seen no evidence to suggest such.

Here is to a promising future. I do love the fact that we have Mcnabb. Mcnabb is still a good QB. Once we get some more depth and offensive line and some wide receivers we will be good.

I hear you about Davis, but when you have 2 TEs sets AND you can't run the ball, it makes playing defense a whole lot easier. They can load 8 men in the box, rush the QB faster, while our slower TEs need that extra .2 seconds to get off the line. That .2 seconds is huge in the NFL. Meanwhile, we have 2 WRs, only one of which can run a proper route -- he can easily be doubled, while Armstrong or another WR can be covered man to man. And with the limited time DMc will have to throw, a guy like Armstrong isn't big enough or fast enough to get open in time. DMc would have no time to get the ball off and a deep threat like Davis (who isn't as fast as a WR) will NEVER have the time to finish his route. And even if those TEs get off the line, LBs can cover them easily -- which would even still give an advantage to the DL.

The only offset to this is for teams that have a good OL or running game. If you have this, it will keep the defense honest and guessing (i.e. taking half the field away by running to either side). We, however, don't even have a mediocre running game.

This is the problem (and benefit) to all offenses. A good OL solves everything. When you have a good OL, you give extra time to your QB and open up lanes for your RBs. Remember superbowl XXII? Timmy Smith was no Barry Sanders and he ran for 204 yards. Those holes were so big most of the people on this messageboard could have gone for 200 that game -- LITERALLY. Why the FO doesn't draft OL is beyond me. It is both insane and frustrating to watch.

This is tough to say, but an offense is only as good as its OL and QB. If those pieces work, everyone else around them will look like superstars. IMHO, RBs and WRs are replaceable. You NEED OLs and a QB to be truly effective. Right now, I think that with the proper OL, DMc will be a solid QB. We must get our OL in order. Right now, we need 2 guards, a center and a tackle. Really, we only have 1 solid starter (although, I still believe that dockery can play).

[markshark84]

I haven't seen anything positive. Spent a lot of money on a failed 3-4 defense, trading draft picks away, ignoring glaring offensive needs. Why bandwagon yet? Because he suspended someone he should have cut or put up with? And what about that whole grossman debacle? Other than Armstrong and Banks there hasn't been a lot to praise.

Cowboys, Eagles, Packers, Colts, Titans as well as very close versus Texans and Colts. We have a class act at QB, a replacement for our franchise LT. Our OL is improved over last year when he had nothing left to work with. We're seeing young life at WR and RB which we hadn't under the entire Zorn experiment. We've cleaned house of aging vets. And you see nothing positive? Get real.

Yeah, I am sort of with Canes on this.

ESPECIALLY, about the "aging vets". The skins are the OLDEST TEAM IN FOOTBALL!!! Not sure what you meant by this.

Also, I am not sure our OL is any better than last year. It may appear so because we have a more mobile QB, but personally I don't think this OL is any better than last years craptastic line (and we gave up a high draft pick (I consider 1-4 as high) for it --- which makes it worse, I guess).

Also, I see ABSOLUTELY no life at WR or RB. All our RBs are injured and Armstrong is barely a solid 3rd. The biggest get by the FO was Banks, who is truly a great return man.

[markshark84]

I want a consistent winner before I can call them a success.

Jumping on the bandwagon isn't the same as calling them a success . . .

Yeah, i see what you are saying, but usually you jump on the bandwagon when success appears to be evident. I don't see that yet.

But i do get what you are saying.

[KazooSkinsFan]

I haven't seen anything positive. Spent a lot of money on a failed 3-4 defense, trading draft picks away, ignoring glaring offensive needs. Why bandwagon yet? Because he suspended someone he should have cut or put up with? And what about that whole grossman debacle? Other than Armstrong and Banks there hasn't been a lot to praise.

Cowboys, Eagles, Packers, Colts, Titans as well as very close versus Texans and Colts. We have a class act at QB, a replacement for our franchise LT. Our OL is improved over last year when he had nothing left to work with. We're seeing young life at WR and RB which we hadn't under the entire Zorn experiment. We've cleaned house of aging vets. And you see nothing positive? Get real.

Yeah, I am sort of with Canes on this.

ESPECIALLY, about the "aging vets". The skins are the OLDEST TEAM IN FOOTBALL!!! Not sure what you meant by this.

Also, I am not sure our OL is any better than last year. It may appear so because we have a more mobile QB, but personally I don't think this OL is any better than last years craptastic line (and we gave up a high draft pick (I consider 1-4 as high) for it --- which makes it worse, I guess).

Also, I see ABSOLUTELY no life at WR or RB. All our RBs are injured and Armstrong is barely a solid 3rd. The biggest get by the FO was Banks, who is truly a great return man.

I admit on the aging vets I wasn't very precise. What I meant was we cleaned out the contracts of vets who weren't very effective (e.g. ARE) and were going to hurt us for cap space (e.g., CG) going forward. We got a re-boot on the cap. I understand you wouldn't get that from what I said. They had so little to work with after that and we had a QB who just couldn't play the position and a franchise LT who was forced to retire.

As for the wins, you can pooh pooh it all you want. I am not arguing those prove we are on the path to a Super Bowl. But if you're arguing it's all meaningless when you look at what they had to start with then I'm just going to dismiss that as the crap that it is. You can find a gray lining in any cloud if that's all you want to see, and dismissing cleaning cap (more precise this time), replacing a couple key positions and having had a lot more success then last year as irrelevant then all you want to see is the gray lining.

[VetSkinsFan]

You can find a gray lining in any cloud if that's all you want to see...

Wow, you didn't go there. You can see a silver lining in the exact same clouds, yet you dismiss others who don't agree with you. That sure is objective

[KazooSkinsFan]

You can find a gray lining in any cloud if that's all you want to see...

Wow, you didn't go there. You can see a silver lining in the exact same clouds, yet you dismiss others who don't agree with you. That sure is objective

I've said anyone who doesn't see both gray and silver are both wrong

[VetSkinsFan]

You can find a gray lining in any cloud if that's all you want to see...

Wow, you didn't go there. You can see a silver lining in the exact same clouds, yet you dismiss others who don't agree with you. That sure is objective

I've said anyone who doesn't see both gray and silver are both wrong

I missed that post... b/c it surely wasn't in the one that I pulled the quote from.

[KazooSkinsFan]

You can find a gray lining in any cloud if that's all you want to see...

Wow, you didn't go there. You can see a silver lining in the exact same clouds, yet you dismiss others who don't agree with you. That sure is objective

I've said anyone who doesn't see both gray and silver are both wrong

I missed that post... b/c it surely wasn't in the one that I pulled the quote from.

I've been making the same basic argument in all the threads as it pertained to the discussion and have said it overtly several times as well. And while I may not have said it in that post, my post says there are good things going on, it does not say everything is right with the team. The posts I'm arguing against on the other hand are extremely critical.

[Redskin in Canada]

Well now people, gather round and hear me out:

THIS THREAD IS DEDICATED TO CONFIRM THE MEMBERS OF THE BA/MS BANDWAGON.

If you want to have your gloom and doom, doubtful, sorry, pessimistic, give up, surrender, never-win, we are done, hopeless excuses thread, PLEASE join gampi in his thread: 3 in a row, the tailspin has begun...

This thread is not about to make any promises for SHORT TERM SUCCESS. This thread is about setting the foundation to build upon a TEAM, a band of brothers, under the right leadership in the next couple of years. It is a commitment if you are not affraid of it.

There will be more losses, There are many holes. Mike is FAR FROM PERFECT and he has made mistakes but OVERALL ...

You are in or you are not.

You know where I stand and I will support them because ... I believe in them and ...

Daniel Snyder is the last person on earth I want to have to make any other decision about football operations EVER.

(Right thread now.)

[UK Skins Fan]

I don't like bandwagons, but I do believe that Shanahan and Allen are the right people for this job.

[1niksder]

I don't like bandwagons, but I do believe that Shanahan and Allen are the right people for this job.

+1

CLL had a bandwagon....

[Deadskins]

You are in or you are not.

Well, I guess I'm out right now. I'll have to catch the next bus.

I support them, because I support the Skins. That doesn't mean I have to like every decision they make. Kinda like you support the Skins but not The Danny.

[VetSkinsFan]

I don't like bandwagons, but I do believe that Shanahan and Allen are the right people for this job.

If he can start managing the tough ones too, as opposed to the guys who were already team first (hello big Phil and Fletcher), then I'll start to believe. Up to this point, we haven't had cohesion, wins, execution, or much improvement on players. I'd even say we regressed with the defense since we had more 4-3 players last year than 3-4 players this year.

But I will never forget this year of Shanahan's tenure and will always be wary of him and his 'discipline' he's instilled here.

[brad7686]

I haven't seen anything positive. Spent a lot of money on a failed 3-4 defense, trading draft picks away, ignoring glaring offensive needs. Why bandwagon yet? Because he suspended someone he should have cut or put up with? And what about that whole grossman debacle? Other than Armstrong and Banks there hasn't been a lot to praise.

Cowboys, Eagles, Packers, Colts, Titans as well as very close versus Texans and Colts. We have a class act at QB, a replacement for our franchise LT. Our OL is improved over last year when he had nothing left to work with. We're seeing young life at WR and RB which we hadn't under the entire Zorn experiment. We've cleaned house of aging vets. And you see nothing positive? Get real.

If the question was about whether it was better than zorn i would say yes. but thats not the issue.

[1niksder]

I haven't seen anything positive. Spent a lot of money on a failed 3-4 defense, trading draft picks away, ignoring glaring offensive needs. Why bandwagon yet? Because he suspended someone he should have cut or put up with? And what about that whole grossman debacle? Other than Armstrong and Banks there hasn't been a lot to praise.

Cowboys, Eagles, Packers, Colts, Titans as well as very close versus Texans and Colts. We have a class act at QB, a replacement for our franchise LT. Our OL is improved over last year when he had nothing left to work with. We're seeing young life at WR and RB which we hadn't under the entire Zorn experiment. We've cleaned house of aging vets. And you see nothing positive? Get real.

If the question was about whether it was better than zorn i would say yes. but thats not the issue.

Younger at WR and RB, attention to the OL, and 5 wins to date are all positives, had it been Zorn it would have been called a dream. I'm sure you know switching from the 4-3 to a 3-4 will take more than a year so calling it a failure now is premature and what money did they spend to make the switch

You all so know that there were so many holes that they all weren't going to get fixed in one offseason. As far as the Draft picks go McNabb and Brown are both starters and the Redskins still have seven picks in 2011

[CanesSkins26]

Younger at WR and RB

Not by design though. When we started the season our two deep at rb was Portis and Larry Johnson. It was only after our aging vets either got hurt or couldn't hack that we brought in some young guys because we needed bodies. And as for those young rb's, none of them is a solution beyond this year. Torrain can't stay healthy and Williams looks like he's running in place.

As for wr, yes Armstrong is starting now, but other than him none of our young wide receivers have done a thing. And Armstrong isn't anything better than a 3rd string wr.

[1niksder]

Younger at WR and RB

Not by design though. When we started the season our two deep at rb was Portis and Larry Johnson. It was only after our aging vets either got hurt or couldn't hack that we brought in some young guys because we needed bodies. And as for those young rb's, none of them is a solution beyond this year. Torrain can't stay healthy and Williams looks like he's running in place.

As for wr, yes Armstrong is starting now, but other than him none of our young wide receivers have done a thing. And Armstrong isn't anything better than a 3rd string wr.

Torain and Williams were not brought in after the fact they were already here, and Torain may not be injury prone but he reutrned to practice today and should be unavailable by Friday.

The WR on the other hand were being held back by aging guys but thay now have the rest of this season to get ready to play in the NFL.