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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:23 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
CanesSkins26 wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:Shanahan doesn't have the patience to go through the rebuilding process that this team needs, and that's the problem.

How do you know that?


If you are willing to go through a full rebuild you don't trade multiple picks for McNabb and Brown. That makes zero sense because it takes away from the draft picks that you need to actually rebuild. You don't play Joey Galloway over younger receivers if you are rebuilding (heck, you don't even sign Galloway if you are rebuilding) and you don't rely heavily on guys like Daniels, Holliday, etc. over younger guys like Jarmon.

In addition, if you look back at Shanahan's tenure in Denver he clearly preferred playing veterans over younger players. You can argue otherwise, but I have seen very little from Shanahan that shows that he is committed to the rebuilding this team instead of trying to do a quick fix.

Overall he brought lots of young guys onto the team and it was his first off-season. McNabb makes a lot of sense to help develop an offensive system and a chance to find a young QB, Brown was relatively cheap for a veteran and he doesn't have a lot of miles and regarding Galloway, our WR corps isn't very deep and as Armstrong has stepped up they cut him. The best way to develop youngsters is to develop systems they can step into.

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:35 pm
by riggofan
Yeah I wish our head coach would listen more to the criticisms of people on internet message boards and radio call in shows. That's what we REALLY need in a head coach.

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:36 pm
by riggofan
Irn-Bru wrote:Isn't that exactly the kind of thing we've been asking for as fans? And yet when Shanahan stands up for what he believes in, someone starts a thread talking about how Shanahan doesn't care about "us" because he benched Haynesworth and didn't suck up to the media. Well I'd ask that you speak for yourself, because in my opinion that's exactly what caring about me, as a fan, looks like.


I agree with you 100%. Excellent post.

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:43 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
riggofan wrote:Yeah I wish our head coach would listen more to the criticisms of people on internet message boards and radio call in shows. That's what we REALLY need in a head coach.

What's the relevance of this statement to anything?

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:52 pm
by CanesSkins26
McNabb makes a lot of sense to help develop an offensive system and a chance to find a young QB, Brown was relatively cheap for a veteran and he doesn't have a lot of miles and regarding Galloway, our WR corps isn't very deep and as Armstrong has stepped up they cut him.


Can you think of any other instances were a team that is rebuilding trades 2nd and 3rd round picks for a 34-year old qb? I understand what you are saying about needing to establish an offense, but I find it hard to believe that that was their prime motivation in drafting McNabb. I really think that Shanahan thought that he could piece together a team that could compete either this year or next. He brought in far too many veterans and used up too many draft picks for me to believe that he is truly committed to rebuilding.

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:00 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
CanesSkins26 wrote:
McNabb makes a lot of sense to help develop an offensive system and a chance to find a young QB, Brown was relatively cheap for a veteran and he doesn't have a lot of miles and regarding Galloway, our WR corps isn't very deep and as Armstrong has stepped up they cut him.


Can you think of any other instances were a team that is rebuilding trades 2nd and 3rd round picks for a 34-year old qb?

No, but I can't think of a lot of quarterbacks like McNabb who were traded at all so it's hard to draw a specific conclusion from that.

CanesSkins26 wrote:I understand what you are saying about needing to establish an offense, but I find it hard to believe that that was their prime motivation in drafting McNabb. I really think that Shanahan thought that he could piece together a team that could compete either this year or next. He brought in far too many veterans and used up too many draft picks for me to believe that he is truly committed to rebuilding.

Possible, but the reasons I have a hard time thinking they were thinking that is that if they wanted to win quickly they would not have switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4 when we had a perennial top 10 D and the wrong personnel, and I can't believe anyone thought our O was a few players from being good much less experts. It seems to me both those moves are thinking win tomorrow, not today. I doubt they planned to lose 12 games again, but I doubt they thought they'd win more then 8 either.

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:48 pm
by Bob 0119
DarthMonk wrote:
Bob 0119 wrote:Yeah, once I heard Haynesworth was benched today I looked at my wife and said "well, there goes our shot at the playoffs."


You're kidding, right? I could toss out the benching of McNabb or the 1st play of the Eagle game or back up even further for when our shot at the playoffs disappeared.

I heard the most meaningful thing I've heard about Fat Al yet on the radio today: "He doesn't love football." It's that simple. Reminds me of a guy we once had named Westbrook.

DarthMonk


Yes, my point was that everyone was going to make a big thing out of it as if HE ALONE was going to help us win out.

This thread kinda proves my point.

We aren't a playoff team, we'd have lost yesterday with or without Haynesworth. Shanahan had to know he's going to take heat for it, but the message he sent to the team was that he doesn't care about your contract, he doesn't care about the media, it's his way, or the highway.

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:49 pm
by chiefhog44
Irn-Bru wrote:This is what really gets to me about the whole tone of this discussion:

For years — years, as in going on a decade — I've heard critique after critique of the Redskins that revolve around discipline, heart, and playing like a team. Every year, everyone is falling over themselves to be the first to talk about how this is a team of me-firsts, from Snyder down through the highly paid free agents. Everyone thinks they are being original when they talk about how the Redskins care more about making PR splashes than winning on the field. We've heard it all before about twenty times over. Nothing ever seems to change. It's very frustrating.

But every once in a while, we see just a speck of light on the horizon. Someone comes into the organization and brings with him the kind of discipline and team-first attitude that it takes to become a successful football franchise. Personally I've always been impressed by those men who were willing to do it, but they seem to catch as much flak as any other yes-man that we've had to suffer as Redskins fans. Endless criticisms that come from people who just seem incapable of seeing the big picture.

First it was Schotty, then Gibbs, and now it's Shanahan. My god, I can only imagine how much worse off we'd be in the Haynesworth situation with Cerrato as GM and a puppet head coach with Snyder pulling the strings. Do you honestly think Snyder is happy that his $100 million dollar man is riding the bench for missing practice? Do you think that would ever have flown in a Jim Zorn-led team?

Shanahan has brought with him a new standard for what it means to be a professional football player. It means you don't stick around just because you were Snyder's personal pick in the draft (Campbell); it means you don't put yourself before the team, no matter who you are or how much you're getting paid (Haynesworth); it means you can't count on a starting spot just because there are a bunch of no-name UFAs below you (Thomas and Kelly); it means you will be held to the same standard as everyone else (Haynesworth); it means that poor performance in practice or games or a bad work ethic will get you benched or cut (Haynesworth, Thomas, Kelly, Dockery, Galloway).

Isn't that exactly the kind of thing we've been asking for as fans? And yet when Shanahan stands up for what he believes in, someone starts a thread talking about how Shanahan doesn't care about "us" because he benched Haynesworth and didn't suck up to the media. Well I'd ask that you speak for yourself, because in my opinion that's exactly what caring about me, as a fan, looks like.


You go girl :rock:

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:55 pm
by chiefhog44
CanesSkins26 wrote:Shanahan doesn't have the patience to go through the rebuilding process that this team needs, and that's the problem.


Shannahan has been quoted as saying that he was worried about bringing in his son because it was going to take a "long" time to rebuild this franchise. I think he know's how poor the talent is here, and you my friend, haven't a clue

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:41 pm
by SkinsJock
riggofan wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:Isn't that exactly the kind of thing we've been asking for as fans? And yet when Shanahan stands up for what he believes in, someone starts a thread talking about how Shanahan doesn't care about "us" because he benched Haynesworth and didn't suck up to the media. Well I'd ask that you speak for yourself, because in my opinion that's exactly what caring about me, as a fan, looks like.


I agree with you 100%. Excellent post.


great post FFA - thanks to the others also that "support" the "improvement and changes" that we are going through here

I plan on watching this franchise get better - even as painful as it is right now - we were dreadful

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:01 am
by tribeofjudah
What would we GIVE....to be as good as Tom Brady and the Pats...WOW..!!! They are killing the Jets right now.

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:31 am
by REDEEMEDSKIN
tribeofjudah wrote:What would we GIVE....to be as good as Tom Brady and the Pats...WOW..!!! They are killing the Jets right now.


Amen!! :D

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:35 am
by CanesSkins26
chiefhog44 wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:Shanahan doesn't have the patience to go through the rebuilding process that this team needs, and that's the problem.


Shannahan has been quoted as saying that he was worried about bringing in his son because it was going to take a "long" time to rebuild this franchise. I think he know's how poor the talent is here, and you my friend, haven't a clue


Yea, and there are plenty of quotes and play personnel decisions from Shanny that indicate his desire to win now and not rebuild. :roll:

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:39 am
by CanesSkins26
Mike Shanahan and Washington Redskins must face need to rebuild
By Mike Wise
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, December 5, 2010; 9:11 PM

EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J.

At least the pretense is gone, the facade of competing for something meaningful ruthlessly peeled away like the football was six times from Redskins players on Sunday afternoon - the day the Washington Redskins' season was buried beneath this cold, dank plot of land hard off the New Jersey Turnpike.

R.I.P., Hope. See ya, Renewal. As usual, we hardly knew ye.

Born Jan. 5, 2010, after the hiring of Mike Shanahan, bolstered in April by the blockbuster trade for Donovan McNabb, they expired for Washington's once-again woeful NFL team in the south end zone, snuffed out in the middle of the third quarter, in the swirling winds of New Meadowlands Stadium after the fourth unanswered touchdown seemed to bring back that familiar phrase:

Wait, what day is the NFL draft?

They're playing for future employment now.

Goodbye, postseason.

Hello, job security.

Adios, hopefully, to "We can win now" spin.

Hola to harsh truth, to "back up the truck."

Today is the day Mike Shanahan needs to stop pretending and start rebuilding in earnest, the day the architect of this franchise's future needs to be spare and fussy with his words, to cut the charade and say what he feels.

For instance:

"Beat it, Albert. We tried. We really tried. But in the end, you didn't care. And when you don't care, you Aintworth nothin'."

When a good number of dependable veteran defensive players spend upward of 45 minutes explaining why Haynesworth was deactivated Sunday against the Giants, when those same players spent much of the off-season and training camp either covering or eviscerating their teammate - depending on whether they feel Big Al crossed the line - it's time to end the relationship.

The Redskins are going the same place with Haynesworth they were headed without him: to their third straight offseason without a playoff date.

At this point, Shanahan is the proverbial teacher who has spent too much time on the rotten-apple kid in homeroom, to the point that the hard-working kids have now had their educations adversely affected. Expel him from class and school. Personal tragedy and professional nightmare of a season for Albert aside, this school simply can't help him reach his potential and he can't help the Redskins reach theirs.

After the most deflating day of his first season as coach, Shanahan also needs to take a hard look at the message going forward, to draw a clear distinction between supplementing a roster with useful parts that might make one playoff run in this parity-stricken NFL landscape and legitimately refurbishing this decaying historic district that is the NFL's oldest team. Importing fast and hungry college kids, draft picks that make sense for the long term - not relics whom no other team will offer a contract.

If this is indeed a copycat league, forget about remaining contemporary with the 3-4 defense; commit to what Tampa Bay, Kansas City, Philadelphia and Detroit, to some measure, have committed to the past couple of years with impressive results: getting younger, faster and competitive again for not just one or two years, but perhaps five.

If Shanahan were to sum up his off-season motivations and say, "Look, I'm 57 and I'm not going to do this forever - I wanted to win now for everybody," folks might actually appreciate the honesty.

He could further explain, "When we thought about a potential lockout, we figured, what the heck, we'll roll the dice this season. Best-case scenario, I thought we could pull off a playoff berth with the talent we had. But you throw in injuries, our highest-paid and most talented defensive player not interested in truly being a part of us, we were worried. Then you throw in Donovan's inability to pick up our offense in any timely manner, we started to think 8-8. But now I know: I've got to stop thinking reload and start really getting serious about rebuild."

Now, My-Way Mike being the clandestine sort of coach who doesn't believe in divulging injuries, much less times of practices, games and why it is important to eat breakfast in the morning, that will never happen.

But after 31-7, New York, after this awful exhibition of pro football brought Washington's postseason dreams to a halt, changing the culture has to be about more than just meticulous organization and unquestioned belief by his players (who privately backed his decision to bench Haynesworth). It needs to be about parting with the old and welcoming the new.

As key free agents go, bring Santana Moss back within financial reason. Clinton Portis can stay too, if he comes back healthy and takes less money. Think hard on Carlos Rogers, though, before committing.

After that and several other keepers like McNabb, Chris Cooley, Brian Orakpo and LaRon Landry, it's re-evaluation time. It's demolition month.

After Sunday, there is no other choice. A litany of missed tackles. Inept offense. A total embarrassment.

Zeroing in on the precise moment a season died is not a perfect science. But the vision of London Fletcher at the 24-yard-line midway through the third quarter clearly qualified Sunday afternoon.

Hands on hips in utter disbelief, the veteran middle linebacker had just watched Brandon Jacobs high-step into the end zone, barely caressed by safety Reed Doughty and a defense that had just ceded its fourth touchdown.

The ignominy of Devin Thomas blocking a punt late in the fourth was just dirt on the grave.

"What was that?" Fletcher asked of Jacobs's 28-yard touchdown run. "Extreme frustration. We knew what they were going to run. We had the right defense called. And it didn't matter."

At 35 years of age, Fletcher is going on 12 years since he last won a Super Bowl and 10 years since he's played in the big game.

Of all the people in the organization who stills buys into hope and renewal with Shanahan, it is Fletcher. To see both expire here Sunday reinforces the need to genuinely change the culture, to part with No. 92 and genuinely begin a complete refurbishing.

There is no pretense anymore. It's over.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/05/AR2010120504268_pf.html

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:00 pm
by markshark84
tribeofjudah wrote:What would we GIVE....to be as good as Tom Brady and the Pats...WOW..!!! They are killing the Jets right now.


Easy. Danny boy needs to take a page out of the Kraft playbook and get his twerpy little hands out of football operations. He needs to stop overpaiding in-their-twilight free agents in an effort to sell new jerseys and stay in good graces with the fans. Danny needs to dig in his heels and build this team from the draft up. Sign players to multi-year deals after drafting them and make them EARN their next contract while playing for the skins. He needs to take his lumps for what he has done to their once great franchise. Because of him, we are the laughing stock of the NFC East and a good deal of the NFL. This is something I learned once I moved away from DC.

This will take patience (something Snyder knows NOTHING about), but the end result -- a team like the Pats that will win for years to come -- is much better than what we have seen for close to 15 years from Snyder.

It's not rocket science. But then again, Snyder has shown that he is (in an attempt to stay someone politically correct) a complete football idiot. Unless something miraculous happens, he will easily go down as the worst owner in the history of the organization.

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:49 pm
by PulpExposure
markshark84 wrote:Easy. Danny boy needs to take a page out of the Kraft playbook and get his twerpy little hands out of football operations. He needs to stop overpaiding in-their-twilight free agents in an effort to sell new jerseys and stay in good graces with the fans. Danny needs to dig in his heels and build this team from the draft up. Sign players to multi-year deals after drafting them and make them EARN their next contract while playing for the skins.


That and luck into Tom Brady in the 6th round...that would help a lot, too...;)

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:27 pm
by VetSkinsFan
CanesSkins26 wrote:
McNabb makes a lot of sense to help develop an offensive system and a chance to find a young QB, Brown was relatively cheap for a veteran and he doesn't have a lot of miles and regarding Galloway, our WR corps isn't very deep and as Armstrong has stepped up they cut him.


Can you think of any other instances were a team that is rebuilding trades 2nd and 3rd round picks for a 34-year old qb? I understand what you are saying about needing to establish an offense, but I find it hard to believe that that was their prime motivation in drafting McNabb. I really think that Shanahan thought that he could piece together a team that could compete either this year or next. He brought in far too many veterans and used up too many draft picks for me to believe that he is truly committed to rebuilding.


+1

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:51 pm
by Deadskins
markshark84 wrote:Unless something miraculous happens, he will easily go down as the worst owner in the history of the organization.

George Preston Marshall.

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:05 pm
by PulpExposure
Deadskins wrote:
markshark84 wrote:Unless something miraculous happens, he will easily go down as the worst owner in the history of the organization.

George Preston Marshall.


Yeah that's easy. Whatever Snyder's faults are, and there are many, Marshall was worse.

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:40 pm
by CanesSkins26
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:Shanahan doesn't have the patience to go through the rebuilding process that this team needs, and that's the problem.

How do you know that?


If you are willing to go through a full rebuild you don't trade multiple picks for McNabb and Brown. That makes zero sense because it takes away from the draft picks that you need to actually rebuild. You don't play Joey Galloway over younger receivers if you are rebuilding (heck, you don't even sign Galloway if you are rebuilding) and you don't rely heavily on guys like Daniels, Holliday, etc. over younger guys like Jarmon.

In addition, if you look back at Shanahan's tenure in Denver he clearly preferred playing veterans over younger players. You can argue otherwise, but I have seen very little from Shanahan that shows that he is committed to the rebuilding this team instead of trying to do a quick fix.

Overall he brought lots of young guys onto the team and it was his first off-season. McNabb makes a lot of sense to help develop an offensive system and a chance to find a young QB, Brown was relatively cheap for a veteran and he doesn't have a lot of miles and regarding Galloway, our WR corps isn't very deep and as Armstrong has stepped up they cut him. The best way to develop youngsters is to develop systems they can step into.


One more thought on this...if the point was to a bring in a veteran qb that can help develop the system for younger players why bring in a qb that is completely unfamiliar with your offensive system and has played in essentially the same system for eleven years?

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:43 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
CanesSkins26 wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:Shanahan doesn't have the patience to go through the rebuilding process that this team needs, and that's the problem.

How do you know that?


If you are willing to go through a full rebuild you don't trade multiple picks for McNabb and Brown. That makes zero sense because it takes away from the draft picks that you need to actually rebuild. You don't play Joey Galloway over younger receivers if you are rebuilding (heck, you don't even sign Galloway if you are rebuilding) and you don't rely heavily on guys like Daniels, Holliday, etc. over younger guys like Jarmon.

In addition, if you look back at Shanahan's tenure in Denver he clearly preferred playing veterans over younger players. You can argue otherwise, but I have seen very little from Shanahan that shows that he is committed to the rebuilding this team instead of trying to do a quick fix.

Overall he brought lots of young guys onto the team and it was his first off-season. McNabb makes a lot of sense to help develop an offensive system and a chance to find a young QB, Brown was relatively cheap for a veteran and he doesn't have a lot of miles and regarding Galloway, our WR corps isn't very deep and as Armstrong has stepped up they cut him. The best way to develop youngsters is to develop systems they can step into.


One more thought on this...if the point was to a bring in a veteran qb that can help develop the system for younger players why bring in a qb that is completely unfamiliar with your offensive system and has played in essentially the same system for eleven years?


I agree that's a good question. I guess my answer would have to be that McNabb was just such an unusual opportunity you have to go for it. The system is only part of what you're mentoring a young QB on. Do you take a guy who's been to 5 NFC Championships and a Super Bowl or a Chump who happened to play in the right system? I pick the former, but I agree it would be good to have both.

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:55 pm
by crazyhorse1
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:Shanahan doesn't have the patience to go through the rebuilding process that this team needs, and that's the problem.

How do you know that?


If you are willing to go through a full rebuild you don't trade multiple picks for McNabb and Brown. That makes zero sense because it takes away from the draft picks that you need to actually rebuild. You don't play Joey Galloway over younger receivers if you are rebuilding (heck, you don't even sign Galloway if you are rebuilding) and you don't rely heavily on guys like Daniels, Holliday, etc. over younger guys like Jarmon.

In addition, if you look back at Shanahan's tenure in Denver he clearly preferred playing veterans over younger players. You can argue otherwise, but I have seen very little from Shanahan that shows that he is committed to the rebuilding this team instead of trying to do a quick fix.

Overall he brought lots of young guys onto the team and it was his first off-season. McNabb makes a lot of sense to help develop an offensive system and a chance to find a young QB, Brown was relatively cheap for a veteran and he doesn't have a lot of miles and regarding Galloway, our WR corps isn't very deep and as Armstrong has stepped up they cut him. The best way to develop youngsters is to develop systems they can step into.


I'm impressed that Shanahan came up with Armstrong and Banks. Everything else, not much. Shanahan has absolutely destroyed our defense and created holes where there weren't holes before. He has also made no improvement on the OL (Except the no-brainer addition of Williams) and still must fill four holes. We also have a crying need for an excellent RB (they don't grow on trees as some here seem to think), a young QB of talent, two linebackers for the 3-4, a nose guard, and two DE's. The team is an almost complete mess. In terms of what must be done, we have taken a giant step backward, regardless of our record.

Face it, gentleman, neither Shanny or Allen is an asset. Together, they will prolong our grief. Don't give me crap above Shanny's "professional" attitude. There's been no evidence of that, not even the benching and suspension of Haynesworth. Some players are simply absolute jerks. That will never change. Good coaches manage to handle them, or at least trade them when they have some value. From the beginning, Shanny should have forced Big Al to play every down to avoid invalidating his contract and costing himself big bucks for non-performance. Big Al just standing there absorbing hits is better than Kemo; he might even have fought back, if only to save face or avoid being killed.

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:50 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
crazyhorse1 wrote:I'm impressed that Shanahan came up with Armstrong and Banks. Everything else, not much. Shanahan has absolutely destroyed our defense and created holes where there weren't holes before. He has also made no improvement on the OL (Except the no-brainer addition of Williams) and still must fill four holes. We also have a crying need for an excellent RB (they don't grow on trees as some here seem to think), a young QB of talent, two linebackers for the 3-4, a nose guard, and two DE's. The team is an almost complete mess. In terms of what must be done, we have taken a giant step backward, regardless of our record.

Face it, gentleman, neither Shanny or Allen is an asset. Together, they will prolong our grief. Don't give me crap above Shanny's "professional" attitude. There's been no evidence of that, not even the benching and suspension of Haynesworth. Some players are simply absolute jerks. That will never change. Good coaches manage to handle them, or at least trade them when they have some value. From the beginning, Shanny should have forced Big Al to play every down to avoid invalidating his contract and costing himself big bucks for non-performance. Big Al just standing there absorbing hits is better than Kemo; he might even have fought back, if only to save face or avoid being killed.

Actually most people thought he'd take Okung, Williams was a surprise. But crazyhorse, even the most experienced talent evaluator will tell you it takes several years to evaluate an incoming rookie class. He's had one and that one other then replacing JC and CS had only low round draft picks. I don't disagree with what we know so far, but it's way to early to draw that conclusion.

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:19 pm
by Irn-Bru
crazyhorse1 wrote:I'm impressed that Shanahan came up with Armstrong and Banks. Everything else, not much.

Williams?