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Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:41 pm
by 1niksder
PiggyKiller wrote:Haslett isn't the problem. Overrated defensive players are. That shell of what Albert Haynesworth once was, the one that lines up in the 92 uniform every couple of plays and gives up every other snap that he plays? He's the problem. DBs that talk to much and walk too little to back it up.
Haslett isn't the problem.
The player don't fit the scheme, but you wouldn't know that would you considering you only have the National media to go on. "Haslett needs his own players but until he gets them he needs to stop trying to fit square pegs into round holes"
And last night isn't a real measuring stick for this team, because Vick is just getting started.
Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:53 pm
by PiggyKiller
1niksder wrote:PiggyKiller wrote:Haslett isn't the problem. Overrated defensive players are. That shell of what Albert Haynesworth once was, the one that lines up in the 92 uniform every couple of plays and gives up every other snap that he plays? He's the problem. DBs that talk to much and walk too little to back it up.
Haslett isn't the problem.
The player don't fit the scheme, but you wouldn't know that would you considering you only have the National media to go on. "Haslett needs his own players but until he gets them he needs to stop trying to fit square pegs into round holes"
And last night isn't a real measuring stick for this team, because Vick is just getting started.
"Players don't fit the scheme" seems like a politically-correct way of saying "Our players aren't as talented as we thought they were." I don't think it takes being a local to see that the Redskins are willing participants of a vicious cycle of mediocrity, normally preceded by overblown expectations and talent analysis. Haynesworth fits the scheme.. he's just an unmotivated player that was paid way too much money.
The Redskins defense is routinely a solid one that perennially succumbs to an incapable offense. I won't pretend that they don't have problems schematically, but they're just not as talented as first thought.
Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:05 pm
by 1niksder
PiggyKiller wrote:"Players don't fit the scheme" seems like a politically-correct way of saying "Our players aren't as talented as we thought they were." I don't think it takes being a local to see that the Redskins are willing participants of a vicious cycle of mediocrity, normally preceded by overblown expectations and talent analysis. Haynesworth fits the scheme.. he's just an unmotivated player that was paid way too much money.
The locals can tell you how un-informed this post is. The player are talented enough to be a top 5 defense when they played in a 4-3 scheme, now they are learning something new.
PiggyKiller wrote:The Redskins defense is routinely a solid one that perennially succumbs to an incapable offense. I won't pretend that they don't have problems schematically, but they're just not as talented as first thought.
As fans we have said this would happen from day one. You are talking about a defense that had LB playing LB and DL playing DL that's not how it works at Redskins Park these days.
Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:09 pm
by 1niksder
1niksder wrote:PiggyKiller wrote:"Players don't fit the scheme" seems like a politically-correct way of saying "Our players aren't as talented as we thought they were." I don't think it takes being a local to see that the Redskins are willing participants of a vicious cycle of mediocrity, normally preceded by overblown expectations and talent analysis. Haynesworth fits the scheme.. he's just an unmotivated player that was paid way too much money.
The locals can tell you how un-informed this post is. The player are talented enough to be a top 5 defense when they played in a 4-3 scheme, now they are learning something new.
PiggyKiller wrote:The Redskins defense is routinely a solid one that perennially succumbs to an incapable offense. I won't pretend that they don't have problems schematically, but they're just not as talented as first thought.
As fans we have said this would happen from day one. You are talking about a defense that had LB playing LB and DL playing DL that's not how it works at Redskins Park these days.
And welcome to the boards
Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:11 pm
by PiggyKiller
1niksder wrote:PiggyKiller wrote:"Players don't fit the scheme" seems like a politically-correct way of saying "Our players aren't as talented as we thought they were." I don't think it takes being a local to see that the Redskins are willing participants of a vicious cycle of mediocrity, normally preceded by overblown expectations and talent analysis. Haynesworth fits the scheme.. he's just an unmotivated player that was paid way too much money.
The locals can tell you how un-informed this post is. The player are talented enough to be a top 5 defense when they played in a 4-3 scheme, now they are learning something new.
PiggyKiller wrote:The Redskins defense is routinely a solid one that perennially succumbs to an incapable offense. I won't pretend that they don't have problems schematically, but they're just not as talented as first thought.
As fans we have said this would happen from day one. You are talking about a defense that had LB playing LB and DL playing DL that's not how it works at Redskins Park these days.
Ok, I'll admit that I'm probably not one to ask about the real answers behind the Redskins' problems. Touche. Thank you for the welcoming.
Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:37 pm
by markshark84
VetSkinsFan wrote:I still have noticed a difference from this year and last. You don't see players hanging out with Snyder (CP and the CMAs for instance). Snyder isn't holding pressers. There is a difference IMO. If some people are too jaded to believe that Snyder can change, then so be it.
Yeah, but he has done nothing over the years to earn my benefit of the doubt -- so until I actually see some change, I'll stick to the status quo. But hey -- if he has done enough over the years to earn your benefit of the doubt, that's on you. I am not quite as forgiving or understanding as you appear to be. For a guy like Danny, he thrives and survives due to the loyalty and the easy-to-forgive nature of the redskin fanbase. If this were Philly, Danny boy would have already been hung or shot.
And in terms of the players and pressers, that had to do more with what was going on here last season than anything else. Last year was a very unique one. Zorn was basically fired in week 4. Cerrato was basically fired about 2 weeks later. I had never heard of players addressing Danny when Gibbs, Marty, or even Spurrier were here. That was a one year thing. The pressers were too. That didn't happen in the past.
Regardless, if you take this year in its totality, I see more similarities than differences.....including a losing record. I just wish that people would make more of an emphasis on how Danny is killing this franchise and stop financially supporting such a horrendous owner.
Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:40 pm
by markshark84
PiggyKiller wrote:Haslett isn't the problem. Overrated defensive players are. That shell of what Albert Haynesworth once was, the one that lines up in the 92 uniform every couple of plays and gives up every other snap that he plays? He's the problem. DBs that talk to much and walk too little to back it up.
Haslett isn't the problem.
I guess this is an understandable assessment.....from an eagles fan.
If I were an eagles fan, I would say the exact same thing.....while trying to hide the fact I am rolling my eyes.
Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:54 pm
by CanesSkins26
1niksder wrote:PiggyKiller wrote:"Players don't fit the scheme" seems like a politically-correct way of saying "Our players aren't as talented as we thought they were." I don't think it takes being a local to see that the Redskins are willing participants of a vicious cycle of mediocrity, normally preceded by overblown expectations and talent analysis. Haynesworth fits the scheme.. he's just an unmotivated player that was paid way too much money.
The locals can tell you how un-informed this post is. The player are talented enough to be a top 5 defense when they played in a 4-3 scheme, now they are learning something new.
PiggyKiller wrote:The Redskins defense is routinely a solid one that perennially succumbs to an incapable offense. I won't pretend that they don't have problems schematically, but they're just not as talented as first thought.
As fans we have said this would happen from day one. You are talking about a defense that had LB playing LB and DL playing DL that's not how it works at Redskins Park these days.
I agree about the front 7 being a scheme issue. The problems with the secondary has nothing to do with scheme. It's an issue of effort, smarts, and talent (or lack thereof).
Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:33 pm
by PulpExposure
CanesSkins26 wrote:1niksder wrote:PiggyKiller wrote:"Players don't fit the scheme" seems like a politically-correct way of saying "Our players aren't as talented as we thought they were." I don't think it takes being a local to see that the Redskins are willing participants of a vicious cycle of mediocrity, normally preceded by overblown expectations and talent analysis. Haynesworth fits the scheme.. he's just an unmotivated player that was paid way too much money.
The locals can tell you how un-informed this post is. The player are talented enough to be a top 5 defense when they played in a 4-3 scheme, now they are learning something new.
PiggyKiller wrote:The Redskins defense is routinely a solid one that perennially succumbs to an incapable offense. I won't pretend that they don't have problems schematically, but they're just not as talented as first thought.
As fans we have said this would happen from day one. You are talking about a defense that had LB playing LB and DL playing DL that's not how it works at Redskins Park these days.
I agree about the front 7 being a scheme issue. The problems with the secondary has nothing to do with scheme. It's an issue of effort, smarts, and talent (or lack thereof).
And speed. We have a lack of it in the secondary.
Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:12 pm
by Shabutie
Skinsfan55 wrote:Totally agree. But the whole problem is Shanahan's insistence that we use a 3-4 defense. In sports winning teams are the ones who can find inequity in the market, and capitalize on it. For example in baseball "Moneyball" was about how Billy Beane found undervalued commodities like high percentage on base guys. You need to find something of value that works that other teams teams aren't putting as much emphasis on to gain an edge.
Instead the Redskins are employing a 3-4 defense at a time when so many other teams are doing he same. They are fighting with other teams over very limited resources. Big heavy defensive linemen, 250+ pound linebackers etc. Every team switching to a 3-4 is looking for guys in the draft who play DE and hoping they can be converted to OLB. They're looking for huge DT's they hope they cane move to the outside.
Why are we fighting that fight with all these 3-4 teams when we have:
Brian Orakpo who was a dominating DE at Texas.
Albert Haynesworth who was an elite DT in a 3-4 scheme.
Phillip Daniels who's been a DT/DE in a 4-3 his whole career (and a standout player at that!)
Jeremy Jarmon who was a former 3rd round pick as a DE.
Adam Carriker who's only ever been a 4-3 DT in the pros.
Andre Carter who is a star DE with 60 career sacks and 15 career forced fumbles as a defensive end.
London Fletcher who is an elite MLB in a 4-3.
Rocky McIntosh who is one of the best young 4-3 OLBs?
I mean, it's ridiculous to even try and build a 3-4 defense in today's NFL with all the competition... but it makes it worse when you potentially have the pieces for an elite 4-3 defense.
What makes it worse is that even the makers of Madden know this... try changing your Madden Redskins to a 4-3 and your team improves by 5 points.
I would not say that Daniels has been a standout, McIntosh is an average LB. The problem is a huge combination of a poor coach and low talent that he is making look even worse by putting them at positions they cannot excel in.
The fact that we have a 300 pound man starting at OLB and he is quite a bit better than the next best guy at the position, speaks volumes.
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:04 am
by cowboykillerzRGiii
Don't we run a 4-3 blitzing osakpo every play any way? Can't say I watched the whole game with out my beer goggles but I haven't seen much true 3-4 even if done poorly... Am I horribly wrong?
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:20 am
by tribeofjudah
PulpExposure wrote:CanesSkins26 wrote:1niksder wrote:PiggyKiller wrote:"Players don't fit the scheme" seems like a politically-correct way of saying "Our players aren't as talented as we thought they were." I don't think it takes being a local to see that the Redskins are willing participants of a vicious cycle of mediocrity, normally preceded by overblown expectations and talent analysis. Haynesworth fits the scheme.. he's just an unmotivated player that was paid way too much money.
The locals can tell you how un-informed this post is. The player are talented enough to be a top 5 defense when they played in a 4-3 scheme, now they are learning something new.
PiggyKiller wrote:The Redskins defense is routinely a solid one that perennially succumbs to an incapable offense. I won't pretend that they don't have problems schematically, but they're just not as talented as first thought.
As fans we have said this would happen from day one. You are talking about a defense that had LB playing LB and DL playing DL that's not how it works at Redskins Park these days.
I agree about the front 7 being a scheme issue. The problems with the secondary has nothing to do with scheme. It's an issue of effort, smarts, and talent (or lack thereof).
And speed. We have a lack of it in the secondary.
Bring back...ah ah....Smoot? Springs? I know......D Green.... nice
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:01 am
by SkinsJock
IMO
I'm not happy with how things are progressing but I'm not giving up on these guys yet:
this FO will get things straightened out but that will take time
we'll be better off in the long run with McNabb here than if we'd kept Campbell
both Haslett and Kyle will be gone if they don't get better play out of their players than we saw
we are going to see Bruce and Mike running things here for at least another year and they will not tolerate an effort like that for much longer from either the players or the coaches
we are not as bad as some here think
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:40 am
by Redskin in Canada
SkinsJock wrote:... we are not as bad as some here think
Perhaps ...
probably ...
maybe ...
mmmmmm ... I choose to say -possibly- you are right BUT ...
... You have to concede that these last few weeks have cast some serious doubts and disturbing signs about this operation.
The amount of work that remains to be done is HUMONGOUS and I lost the deep conviction that I had about getting it done at the beginning of the season.
Just as a sampler:
We need a new offensive line, perhaps with the exception of Trent Williams.
We need a good young QB to be groomed under DMac and MS.
We need a few WRs
We need a standout nose tackle
We need a few CBs
We need a couple of LBs
We need a defensive coordinator who fits his defensive scheme to the skills of his personnel
We need an offensive coordinator who fits his offensive scheme to the skills of his personnel
We need a less egotistical Mike Shanahan.
We need a smarter Bruce Allen.
We do not need Danny Snyder at all.
Sorry mate. This is a TALL order for the next season ... or two ... or three?
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:54 am
by skins2357
Our 3-4 defense, is not even done correctly. I have been saying this for months now, we are rushing the same 4 people every play.
We rush our 3 down lineman and Orakpo. In a GOOD 3-4, the O Line never knows who comes, and it is difficult to block. This 3-4 we run is a joke, and there is no confusion or attempt to fool anyone.
Whens the last time you saw Orakpo show blitz, pull off and rush someone else? Never! Whens the last time the LBs did not show blitz, then came when the DL dropped into zone? Never! These are schemes that good 3-4 teams use, our is so vanilla...rush the 3 down lineman and Orakpo EVERY PLAY.
That being said, if we stick with the 3-4, we need a complete defensive overhaul. You need bigger/quicker lineman and bigger/stronger LBs.
I think we alright in the secondary, if a successful 3-4 is used. RIght now, they cant cover we all know that. But if you can get consistant pressure, they dont need to cover long as the QB will be forced to throw earlier.
On defense we need : Another pass rushing OLB, MLB who can shed blocks and make plays, Gap clogging NT, DE who can take on passers, but also rush the passer.
We are probably 2 drafts away when you also consider we need an overhaul on the O Line too
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:05 am
by Irn-Bru
skins2357 wrote:Our 3-4 defense, is not even done correctly. I have been saying this for months now, we are rushing the same 4 people every play.
We rush our 3 down lineman and Orakpo. In a GOOD 3-4, the O Line never knows who comes, and it is difficult to block. This 3-4 we run is a joke, and there is no confusion or attempt to fool anyone.
Whens the last time you saw Orakpo show blitz, pull off and rush someone else? Never! Whens the last time the LBs did not show blitz, then came when the DL dropped into zone? Never! These are schemes that good 3-4 teams use, our is so vanilla...rush the 3 down lineman and Orakpo EVERY PLAY.
That's an excellent point.
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:29 am
by langleyparkjoe
markshark84 wrote:Redskin in Canada wrote:I packed all my hats, jersey and banners yesterday. Not only for the season but for a while longer, I think.
The Skins organization does not get a DARN PENNY out of me again until the team is sold.
Honestly, I have held (and currently hold) this position. I have done so since 2004. I have not purchased one redskins item in over 5 years. I have not paid for tickets to attend a game in as long. I only have one jersey (that I really don't wear because I believe it to be bad luck -- but now I really don't because I didn't wear it last year and they were even worse) from 2003. I still wear my ripped up 1999 NFC East champions t-shirt to watch games at sports bars -- and yes, I get crap for it.
I buy a jersey every year. I buy miscellaneous stuff too, like a tie, a pencil set for my kid (and school accessories), I bought my cousin a hat for his bday, and I got my mom a Riggo jersey. I spend my money on the team. I'm not gonna stop buying my favorite teams' items because they suck. So what if they suck, that means I boycott them??? Dag, that reminds me I need to buy another flag, I accidentally turned the back window down and now it belongs to 495 somewhere around the 450 exit.
Oh, and stop blaming Snyder too.. he did the EXACT things we wanted him to do for this season. He got rid of the garbage in Zorn and Cerrato and brought in what we all thought at the time was a good coach and gm. We can blame Snyder on the past all we want but its now and the future, not the past. Snyder isn't on the field and he isn't coaching.. how about everyone just stop trying to blame someone? Getting whipped was a team effort, everyone involved.. geeezuz xmas, ya'll are like big kids crying cause you dropped your ice cream.. THE SEASON ISN'T OVER FOR CHRIST SAKE!!! I see fire this one, fire that one... I'd like to fire some of you fans and push you towards the Pats/Colts/Chargers/Saints.. that way since they win, you won't btch about at all and be happy. Maaaan, some of ya'll suck!
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:03 pm
by HEROHAMO
Haslett isnt the best facilitator of the 3-4 defense thats for sure. I have never been fond of Hasletts coaching. However we have talent on the defensive side as well as some holes to fill.
Defenisve line, my honest opinion this is an aging group and needs an injection of youth and talent. Other then Haynesworth and Carriker. Who on the defensive line scares you. If we stick with the 3-4 then we need some upgrades at NT, RDE and LDE.
Carter is lost in limbo because he is too small to play the defensive line. Yet he cant play linebacker either? Carter should be used in passing situations opposite side Rak.
Linebackers, Fletcher, Orakpo and Rocky are good. We still need to add some depth and talent with another OLB and MLB.
Secondary, we do have talent on the secondary. Hall and Rogers are solid corners if they play to the best of their abilities and are put in the best position possible to succeed. Landry is great when playing disciplined.
We need to add another solid CB and FS.
So overall on defense these are the positions we need to address in the off season. NT, OLB opposite Rak, MLB alongside Fletcher, and a free saftey. Another corner could help but is last on priority list since Rogers and Hall are solid.
As far as Haslett goes? Well I dont like his adjustments or game planning. How do you leave Desean Jackson one of the fastest if not fastest men in the league one on one? Seriously? Many more mistakes have been made but I will leave it alone for now.
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:35 pm
by skinsfan#33
Redskin in canada wrote:Hasleet is a very good coach and he has enjoyed some success in other coaching positions elsewhere.
This statement is simply incorrect!
JH has a reputation as a good coordinator, but his defenses have always been bad. Except for his three years in pittsburg and those were the three worst years in Cower's first ten as a head coach.
I said it when we got him that our defense would be bad, I just didn't think historically bad.
JH has to go! He is straight hot garbage!
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:55 pm
by Kruncher
Personally I don't think Haslett is the dude for the job. I was listening to a commentator during a Skins game, probably a few games back, that said Shanny studies the Steelers 3-4 and wants the Skins defense to be similar to that. It ain't gonna happen with Haslett running the show. He makes NO adjustments at all during the course of the game and if he does they are poor ones that make the situation worse. I realize we don't have all the players for this type of defense but damn no reason for them to lay and egg the way they did against the Eagles. We got some great talent on D and that was dispicable. They should be ashamed.
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:55 pm
by markshark84
langleyparkjoe wrote:markshark84 wrote:Redskin in Canada wrote:I packed all my hats, jersey and banners yesterday. Not only for the season but for a while longer, I think.
The Skins organization does not get a DARN PENNY out of me again until the team is sold.
Honestly, I have held (and currently hold) this position. I have done so since 2004. I have not purchased one redskins item in over 5 years. I have not paid for tickets to attend a game in as long. I only have one jersey (that I really don't wear because I believe it to be bad luck -- but now I really don't because I didn't wear it last year and they were even worse) from 2003. I still wear my ripped up 1999 NFC East champions t-shirt to watch games at sports bars -- and yes, I get crap for it.
(1) Oh, and stop blaming Snyder too.. he did the EXACT things we wanted him to do for this season.
(2) We can blame Snyder on the past all we want but its now and the future, not the past. Snyder isn't on the field and he isn't coaching.. how about everyone just stop trying to blame someone?
(3) Getting whipped was a team effort, everyone involved.. geeezuz xmas, ya'll are like big kids crying cause you dropped your ice cream.. THE SEASON ISN'T OVER FOR CHRIST SAKE!!! I see fire this one, fire that one... I'd like to fire some of you fans and push you towards the Pats/Colts/Chargers/Saints.. that way since they win, you won't btch about at all and be happy. Maaaan, some of ya'll suck!
My response:
(1) Absolutely wrong. He did not do "EXACTLY" what I wanted him to do. HE DIDN'T SELL THE TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!
(2) I will continue to blame the owner for what is wrong with the team. To do anything else is dumb. When the BP pipe exploded and the ensuing oil spill occurred, who did everyone blame?? Was it the rig managment or the site crew or the engineers.....no they blamed the CEO. That is how it works. While their hands may not have directly and uniformly caused the problem, they are the ones who control everything; the ones who have the ultimate authority. Due to this authority, what happens is on them. To say otherwise just creates the blame game that you are referring to.
(3) I never said anyone should get fired. Not for one minute. I said that I am not yet sold on Allen, but never said fire him. He really hasn't done much yet. The only thing I said is that by sinking money into the team, you are supporting an inferior and hapless owner.
But I am sorry for wanting a winning organization. Maybe I shouldn't "suck" and be happy with the crap product this franchise puts on the field year in and year out....and just say "thank you sir, mayI have another". You may be fine with that arrangement, but I'm not. I am frustrated with the constant disappointment. But once again, I apologize that I feel people should be held accountable for their failures. I guess this day and age, that is looked down upon...
I am a skins fan for life -- no matter how much it frustrates me. I get crap all the time from friends who are fans of other teams asking me how I continue to live and die by this team. I just do. It's in my blood.
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:04 pm
by VetSkinsFan
Sorry LPJ, but I can't get on board with #2. You have to assess responsibility and then fix the shortcomings from there. The whole problem IMO is that people keep saying, "we're not going to win now, just wait." But the problem isn't winning, the problem is not getting better. There should be improvements based on becoming more familiar with the schemes, but that's not happening. And b/c it's NOT happening, there is a problem. And that problem needs to be fixed, and I honestly believe that Haslett's not the man for the job. As previously said, there's no adjustments. There's no improvements. We've given 2 QBs CAREER DAYS in 1/2 a season. That's ludicrous.
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:35 am
by langleyparkjoe
Mark and Vet, I honestly understand what ya'll are saying but I'm saying the team we have just plain out sucks and I know it. It was Snyders fault in the past to meddle and try to run gm, coach and owner at the same time. He brought in the beached whale we saw the other night and he ignored the OL with Cerrato in the past so this team sucks because of him, absolutely. This year though he took a step back and brought in football people to fix everything. Fixing this mess isn't a year project, it won't even happen next year but my point is the guy stood back and got other's here to do it. That's exactly what I've been wanting him to do foreeevvverrr now and he did it.
My beefs are changing from a top five 4-3 def to a 3-4 def with the old personnel.. shanahan's joegibblike approach to the start of the game with those 3 running plays.. and of course the OL being as sorry as they are but the coaches could've called plays better suited to who we have... our DBs aren't as good as they say they are. Anyone else on here just wana say screw the money and fire fat al once and for all?
Anyways... 11-5 httr
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:54 pm
by tribeofjudah
................Haslett Sucks
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:47 pm
by markshark84
langleyparkjoe wrote:
(1) This year though he took a step back and brought in football people to fix everything. Fixing this mess isn't a year project, it won't even happen next year but my point is the guy stood back and got other's here to do it.
That's exactly what I've been wanting him to do foreeevvverrr now and he did it.
(2) Anyone else on here just wana say screw the money and fire fat al once and for all?
In response:
(1) We'll see about that, because I doesn't appear very much has changed in terms of the FO since the hirings. This offseason, we gave up a 3rd and 4th in this years draft.....sound familiar?? Seems like the same story. So personally, I don't care what he does or makes us want to believe he has done. For me to honestly believe he is no longer destroying this franchise in a way similar to what he has been doing for over a decade now, I NEED to see a difference -- not just assume it is happening because he hired a couple new FO people.
Again, I am not sure why you are giving him the benefit of the doubt here. From what has been going on here, not much has changed. Same story, different characters. I do, however, see a coach that is at least demanding some type of respect from his players, but in terms of the FO, not much.
(2) Aren't you the person that said we should wait before we go on a firing rampage? That was pretty hypocritical.