The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Bob 0119 wrote:It's not like it's never been done. Many teams put in WR's on last second hail marys. I know I've seen Pittsburgh do it.

I will bet that they have at least practiced... I bet that Shanahans perspective would be "He really ought to show me he can play WR before we give him time at CB... " don't you think?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:There is no reason why DT cant at least get a few plays in a game. He deserves at least an opportunity

He gets TONS of opportunities. All week long in practice. There is no reason to think that if he can't show the coaches he deserves a shot in practice he'll do well in a game. There are so many practice phenoms...we've had a few ourselves. There's almost no one who can't do it in practice then tear it up in games. Sorry. And the last two years in games he sucked big time as well.

Its not so much that I have sympathy for the guy. I just want to see if the kid can play. Honestly the guys who are in at WR are not that impressive either.

Heres what I am getting at. If we have Armstrong and Moss in on most of the plays. Yet they are not producing much?

What would it hurt to see if Devon can produce on a couple plays? I mean I dont think I have seen DT in on any plays at all. Not even a goalline situation?

HEROHAMO wrote:Fred Davis needs to get more plays as well.

Fred needs to make the catch on the plays he does get first. ey absolutely makes that grab in the Philly game. But Chris would probably not have turned back and been in the position to have to catch it over his head while backpedaling in the first place.

Countertrey wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:Thomas on the block?

God I hope this isn't true. I don't know who he's pissed off, but whoever wants to trade him is making a mistake. I still believe he's the most athletic WR we have and not having him in the offensive gameplan is a mistake.

Yet, we have no idea what's going on behind those doors... I suspect that, on some level, job security is a component of Shanahan's psyche... so, why would he simply refuse to let "the most athletic WR we have" put it to use on the field?

There's more to this story... and they have no obligation to tell us what it is. Keep in mind, this is a head coach who has, in the past, had no problem getting the most out of egocentric head cases (Brandon Marshall?), and has provided opportunities to some very talented boneheads (including, most recently, Larry Johnson)...

I recall that Brandon Lloyd is one incredibly talented dude... yet, he really hasn't shown up for a game until... ummm... YESTERDAY... The Redskins last decade is jammed with wideouts who were full of talent, and yet could not figure out the definition of TEAM.

Whatever it is that's keeping Thomas off the field... I doubt that it's Shanahan's ego...

I'm sorry, but our WRs aren't that good, and to not even give Thomas a shot is ludicrous. And it's pretty common knowledge that Mike Shanahan is a bit hardheaded. I've never alluded that I know what's going on behind closed doors, but to say that Thomas has shown so poorly on offense that he doesn't even deserve a shot is kinda out there IMO.

And I alluded to admitting that I don't know what goes on behind closed doors...I apologize if I didn't make that clear enough.

And LJ was a total bust here; I didn't see a talented bonehead.

VetSkinsFan wrote:I'm sorry, but our WRs aren't that good, and to not even give Thomas a shot is ludicrous. And it's pretty common knowledge that Mike Shanahan is a bit hardheaded

Again Thomas IS getting a shot...each and every day. If he shows in practice that he's got the routes down and to your point our WRs are horrible then they are clearly going to give him a shot. But by what possible reason do you think if he's not showing that he's got it down in practice do you think suddenly in a game with tens of thousands of people screaming and a D that's not in practice mode is he suddenly going to get it?

As for Shannahan, yes, he is hard headed. But no one's shown any example where he's sat players who should be playing and it's preposterous to think he would with all the success he's had. The NFL is not for frail decision makers who make petty decisions to spite themselves and no one successful as he's been at the level he's at would do that. Sure, he'd have a war with players, but that he'd keep them off the field if they deserve to be there is just ridiculous and baseless for everything that's happened.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:I'm sorry, but our WRs aren't that good, and to not even give Thomas a shot is ludicrous. And it's pretty common knowledge that Mike Shanahan is a bit hardheaded

Again Thomas IS getting a shot...each and every day. If he shows in practice that he's got the routes down and to your point our WRs are horrible then they are clearly going to give him a shot. But by what possible reason do you think if he's not showing that he's got it down in practice do you think suddenly in a game with tens of thousands of people screaming and a D that's not in practice mode is he suddenly going to get it?

As for Shannahan, yes, he is hard headed. But no one's shown any example where he's sat players who should be playing and it's preposterous to think he would with all the success he's had. The NFL is not for frail decision makers who make petty decisions to spite themselves and no one successful as he's been at the level he's at would do that. Sure, he'd have a war with players, but that he'd keep them off the field if they deserve to be there is just ridiculous and baseless for everything that's happened.

I have a hard time believing that what you suggest is true, that Devin Thomas practices so poorly that he can't get on the field for offense. And to say that any coach out there has not made even 1 mistake is silly. Shanahan is not parting the waters...he's just a man.

I find it hard to believe that some think that Shanahan will not do anything and play anyone that he thinks gives his team a better chance at success

we are playing the 3-4 defense because he thinks it gives this team the best chance at success

we are playing Haynesworth in a way that gives this defense the best chance at success

we did not trade the fat slob ONLY because that was not in the best interests of the franchise - although I might question that

we brought in players that are no longer here because they did not give the team the best chance at success

Shanahan will do whatever he can and put the players on the field that he thinks gives this franchise the best chance at success

this guy is a proven success story and that is why he's here




enjoy the ride up guys - there might be some "stops" along the way but this franchise is headed in the right direction
patience is a virtue

VetSkinsFan wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:I'm sorry, but our WRs aren't that good, and to not even give Thomas a shot is ludicrous. And it's pretty common knowledge that Mike Shanahan is a bit hardheaded

Again Thomas IS getting a shot...each and every day. If he shows in practice that he's got the routes down and to your point our WRs are horrible then they are clearly going to give him a shot. But by what possible reason do you think if he's not showing that he's got it down in practice do you think suddenly in a game with tens of thousands of people screaming and a D that's not in practice mode is he suddenly going to get it?

As for Shannahan, yes, he is hard headed. But no one's shown any example where he's sat players who should be playing and it's preposterous to think he would with all the success he's had. The NFL is not for frail decision makers who make petty decisions to spite themselves and no one successful as he's been at the level he's at would do that. Sure, he'd have a war with players, but that he'd keep them off the field if they deserve to be there is just ridiculous and baseless for everything that's happened.

I have a hard time believing that what you suggest is true, that Devin Thomas practices so poorly that he can't get on the field for offense. And to say that any coach out there has not made even 1 mistake is silly. Shanahan is not parting the waters...he's just a man.

There is no possible way to read what I said as Shannahan as "parting the waters." I said he's been successful at this level, the highest level of football. You're arguing he's so petty he won't play the players who give him the best chance of winning or even give someone a shot when his other players at that position suck. I even conceded he is hard headed and I believe he does feuding with them. I just said keep them off the field? No. And you say oh, you think he parts the waters.

you may be right Vet - but what he's done here with what he had to begin with is a little short of a miracle


I'm on the Redskins bandwagon and I'm liking the ride

I heard and saw on TV that Devin is on the trading block. Who want's him? I don't know....but we could trade him for another RB maybe.

The "secrecy" at the Park has gotten worse now that Shanny is here. If you think things were bad with the old regime, Shanny is going to take it to another level with his level of secrecy.

He's not really saying. McCardle is not saying anything. And DT is just saying he's not sure and that he's working hard. Well, I don't believe for a minute that the coaches are keeping him in the dark. There is too much money and time at stake for you to just say nothing to a guy and keep him on the roster.

Besides, some of this should be on DT too. Let's just say they have given him the "silent" treatment. They have said something to him before going mum on him that he should take as the things that he needs to work on and bust his butt to get it done. Then again, it could be a mental and not a physical thing. In today's NFL, you can't be a physically gifted freak and not know what you are doing on the field. Defenses and offenses have become so complex that not only do you have to know the plays but you have to be able to read defenses and know what to do based off those reads and still run precise routes, block, and make plays.

On the surface it's seems a waste but I'm sure that there is a reason why he is not on the field. But if it turns out that Shanny is being vindictive, he won't be successful as the HC of this team. That would speak to his character and those types of decisions will carry over to make even poorer decisions that would cost this team ball games.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:I'm sorry, but our WRs aren't that good, and to not even give Thomas a shot is ludicrous. And it's pretty common knowledge that Mike Shanahan is a bit hardheaded

Again Thomas IS getting a shot...each and every day. If he shows in practice that he's got the routes down and to your point our WRs are horrible then they are clearly going to give him a shot. But by what possible reason do you think if he's not showing that he's got it down in practice do you think suddenly in a game with tens of thousands of people screaming and a D that's not in practice mode is he suddenly going to get it?

As for Shannahan, yes, he is hard headed. But no one's shown any example where he's sat players who should be playing and it's preposterous to think he would with all the success he's had. The NFL is not for frail decision makers who make petty decisions to spite themselves and no one successful as he's been at the level he's at would do that. Sure, he'd have a war with players, but that he'd keep them off the field if they deserve to be there is just ridiculous and baseless for everything that's happened.

I have a hard time believing that what you suggest is true, that Devin Thomas practices so poorly that he can't get on the field for offense. And to say that any coach out there has not made even 1 mistake is silly. Shanahan is not parting the waters...he's just a man.

There is no possible way to read what I said as Shannahan as "parting the waters." I said he's been successful at this level, the highest level of football. You're arguing he's so petty he won't play the players who give him the best chance of winning or even give someone a shot when his other players at that position suck. I even conceded he is hard headed and I believe he does feuding with them. I just said keep them off the field? No. And you say oh, you think he parts the waters.

It's documented that he's sat and traded playmakers that don't fall in line. I still believe that the Fat Al fiasco is along these lines, but I do not wish to derail this thread with Fat Al again and I will not respond to any derailment, b/c it's been beaten to death and as we both admit, we don't know what's going on behind closed doors.

My point is that no one is perfect, even a successful NFL coach like Shanahan. Some people take Shanahan/Shanahan/Allen/Haslett as not being able to make mistakes here. I simply do not take that opinion. I believe that they are still learning the players as the players are still learning the system. And in that human factor, I do believe mistakes can be made.

Regardless of anyone's opinion, we're all arm-chair GMs and our opinions really don't matter in the big picture; I get that. But I'll still continue to think outside the box and I don't always follow the flute player as some do...

VetSkinsFan wrote:My point is that no one is perfect, even a successful NFL coach like Shanahan. Some people take Shanahan/Shanahan/Allen/Haslett as not being able to make mistakes here. I simply do not take that opinion. I believe that they are still learning the players as the players are still learning the system. And in that human factor, I do believe mistakes can be made

I agree with you on all this. But there are so many decisions you could question with they "could" be wrong. Endless decisions. They have to play the odds and use their evaluation. Practice is easier, not harder as our practice field heroes, game time busts have shown. Devon had two years of playing time and is on the practice field every day not impressing them. Is it possible they are wrong? He sucks in practice (by NFL standards) so they don't want to play him over our rag tag fugitive fleet of WR's who suck and he actually would play better in games even though he didn't the last two years? Yes, I have to concede it is. Is it very likely? I stick with no and I don't see any reason that means they're not playing him out of some sort of ego trip. That's what I'm saying. But I agree AH is pounded and I didn't go there and we're pretty much here with this one too until further developments.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:My point is that no one is perfect, even a successful NFL coach like Shanahan. Some people take Shanahan/Shanahan/Allen/Haslett as not being able to make mistakes here. I simply do not take that opinion. I believe that they are still learning the players as the players are still learning the system. And in that human factor, I do believe mistakes can be made

I agree with you on all this. But there are so many decisions you could question with they "could" be wrong. Endless decisions. They have to play the odds and use their evaluation. Practice is easier, not harder as our practice field heroes, game time busts have shown. Devon had two years of playing time and is on the practice field every day not impressing them. Is it possible they are wrong? He sucks in practice (by NFL standards) so they don't want to play him over our rag tag fugitive fleet of WR's who suck and he actually would play better in games even though he didn't the last two years? Yes, I have to concede it is. Is it very likely? I stick with no and I don't see any reason that means they're not playing him out of some sort of ego trip. That's what I'm saying. But I agree AH is pounded and I didn't go there and we're pretty much here with this one too until further developments.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. He wasn't that bad last year where I can believe that he's that poor on route running. B/C he's our starting KR it shows he's not completely inept. I just can't fathom that they let him have starting KR duties, but is simply that bad in the offense. I just can't seem to believe it no matter how many times I think about it or talk to people about it. It's not logical that there's no personal influence in this decision and I can't get on board, I'm sorry.

are we having fun yet?

I just love the innuendo

totally agree with the fact that these guys could be making mistakes but I'm also looking at guys that I think will make a lot more good decisions than bad ones

I'm not following any flute player but I am seeing progress where those that are looking at last year's defense and wishing for things that are not going to happen are feeling unsure

maybe I'm just not being very realistic about the whole scene but I do know that so far my Sundays are a lot more positive than they've been for a long time

I believe you learn more from your mistakes, so I hope these guys make lots of them in the next few months so that next year and in the future we'll be a lot better than I already expect we'll be if things continue as they have
we are not going to be all that great this season anyway and I'm looking ahead and looking forward to being a lot better next season with these guys managing this franchise

I believe you learn more from your mistakes, so I hope these guys make lots of them in the next few months so that next year and in the future we'll be a lot better than I already expect we'll be if things continue as they have

But Thomas isn't even getting this chance, which is my whole, entire point.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

I believe you learn more from your mistakes, so I hope these guys make lots of them in the next few months so that next year and in the future we'll be a lot better than I already expect we'll be if things continue as they have

But Thomas isn't even getting this chance, which is my whole, entire point.

You have NO idea that this is true... you say others believe that Shanahan walks on water, can make no mistake... yet your knee jerk response is to accuse him of arbitrarily keeping Thomas out of action. You have no idea what Shanahan has or has not done to get Thomas into more plays... No one outside of that circle does... and frankly, it's just not anyone's business... he has NO obligation to run his decisions by us.

Shanahan has a LONG history of taking on headcases and giving them opportunities that no one else would... yet, all of a sudden, some suggesting that he's just a vindictive shrew. Yes, he expects players to do it his way... exactly why is that a problem? He IS the boss, is he not?

Countertrey wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

I believe you learn more from your mistakes, so I hope these guys make lots of them in the next few months so that next year and in the future we'll be a lot better than I already expect we'll be if things continue as they have

But Thomas isn't even getting this chance, which is my whole, entire point.

You have NO idea that this is true... you say others believe that Shanahan walks on water, can make no mistake... yet your knee jerk response is to accuse him of arbitrarily keeping Thomas out of action. You have no idea what Shanahan has or has not done to get Thomas into more plays... No one outside of that circle does... and frankly, it's just not anyone's business... he has NO obligation to run his decisions by us.

Shanahan has a LONG history of taking on headcases and giving them opportunities that no one else would... yet, all of a sudden, some suggesting that he's just a vindictive shrew. Yes, he expects players to do it his way... exactly why is that a problem? He IS the boss, is he not?

i've elaborated as far as I can, but if you think it's kneejerk, then whatever, I must be kneejerking. I've used examples of our WRs aren't dominating in the passing game. I've used examples of he's still our KR starter, so he probably did not in fact piss off Mike, but maybe Kyle or maybe Keenan. I've also already admitted that I do NOT know what goes on @ Redskins Park. Yup, that sure looks like knee jerking... what was I thinking?!?!?

The only thing that I know is there's no info released about why Devin's not playing. I know that if he's handling something as important as kickoffs, then he's not completely in the dog house. Which if he's able to handle kickoffs, and our WRs are not in fact dominating the passing game, makes me wonder why he's not at least been given a chance. We've picked up guys and played them 1-2 weeks later, so it's possible. All of the above doesn't show me why Devin hasn't gotten on the offense. Hell, his personal FB said he was going to get on the field vs the Texans (I think it was that week), and I doubt he would put that out there if he didn't have an inkling of an idea that he may get on the field.

What I'm speculating is that he in fact is not getting the chance in game day situations. Didn't we hear raves about how well our offense and defense performed IN PRACTICE? The team I've seen on the field has been mediocre currently and last week was what I hope is the turning point.

Finally, as a spectator, I don't see how Devin could actually hurt our passing game. Again, I realize my spectator/fan opinion means exactly jack, but that's the way I see it.

VetSkinsFan wrote:But Thomas isn't even getting this chance, which is my whole, entire point.

Thomas is getting LOTS of chances...

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:Thomas on the block?

God I hope this isn't true. I don't know who he's pissed off, but whoever wants to trade him is making a mistake. I still believe he's the most athletic WR we have and not having him in the offensive gameplan is a mistake.

Yet, we have no idea what's going on behind those doors... I suspect that, on some level, job security is a component of Shanahan's psyche... so, why would he simply refuse to let "the most athletic WR we have" put it to use on the field?

There's more to this story... and they have no obligation to tell us what it is. Keep in mind, this is a head coach who has, in the past, had no problem getting the most out of egocentric head cases (Brandon Marshall?), and has provided opportunities to some very talented boneheads (including, most recently, Larry Johnson)...

I recall that Brandon Lloyd is one incredibly talented dude... yet, he really hasn't shown up for a game until... ummm... YESTERDAY... The Redskins last decade is jammed with wideouts who were full of talent, and yet could not figure out the definition of TEAM.

Whatever it is that's keeping Thomas off the field... I doubt that it's Shanahan's ego...

I'm sorry, but our WRs aren't that good, and to not even give Thomas a shot is ludicrous. And it's pretty common knowledge that Mike Shanahan is a bit hardheaded. I've never alluded that I know what's going on behind closed doors, but to say that Thomas has shown so poorly on offense that he doesn't even deserve a shot is kinda out there IMO.

And I alluded to admitting that I don't know what goes on behind closed doors...I apologize if I didn't make that clear enough.

And LJ was a total bust here; I didn't see a talented bonehead.

You saw him get a shot, that no one else was going to give him... that was the point... That he was a bust is irrelevant... the bottom line is, he got a shot.

Deadskins wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Fred Davis needs to get more plays as well.

Fred needs to make the catch on the plays he does get first. ey absolutely makes that grab in the Philly game. But Chris would probably not have turned back and been in the position to have to catch it over his head while backpedaling in the first place.

Double tight end packages is what I want to see. Yes both ey and Davis are not the best blocking tight ends but they are both better then our current wide receivers.

Also in goalline situations I think Davis and ey should be in on passing situations.

I don't know what DTs practice habits are like. All I know is I want to see him in on goal-line situations. We have small receivers who cant out jump or out muscle anyone in red zone situations.

I like the job Mike is doing so far. I also think Kyle Shanahan is doing a decent job. I do think there is room for improvement. This is a work in progress after all.

However that does not mean that Mike Shanahan will not make mistakes. I think he is making a mistake by not putting in Devin Thomas.

I also think he could have a better red zone package.

Am I questioning Mike and Kyle Shanahans judgment?Absolutely.
That does not mean I don't think they are good coaches. Just this particular situation with Devin Thomas I think they are wrong.

Can he really be worse than Roydell Williams?

HEROHAMO wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Fred Davis needs to get more plays as well.

Fred needs to make the catch on the plays he does get first. ey absolutely makes that grab in the Philly game. But Chris would probably not have turned back and been in the position to have to catch it over his head while backpedaling in the first place.

Double tight end packages is what I want to see. Yes both ey and Davis are not the best blocking tight ends but they are both better then our current wide receivers.

Also in goalline situations I think Davis and ey should be in on passing situations.

Well, until Davis can carry out at least one of his resposibilities (catching and blocking) well, I don't care if he sees the field.

HEROHAMO wrote:Also in goalline situations I think Davis and ey should be in on passing situations.

I agree completely and I thought going into the season Freddy was going to be a big part of our O. I don't understand why he's not being used more because he's one of 3 guys on our team who can run routes and catch passes.