McShay's Current take

crazyhorse1 · Post by **crazyhorse1** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:13 pm

Fios wrote:Must, must, must draft an offensive lineman, anything else is sheer stupidity.

The straw speaks with wisdom. But I'll take it further. We must draft OL in the first two rounds. Not only are Williams, Rabach, and Jones FA's, they are all suspect as players. Unless drastic action is taken, the OL could actually end up worse than it was last year. Heyer has no potential. Rabach can't center the ball in the same place twice. Jones doesn't want to play RT and says that he won't. Rinehard is so bad that not even desperation got him in the lineup for much of the year. Face it, he can't play. The only guy we have who should maybe be a first stringer in the NFL is Dockery, and he isn't much.

At one point last season, I thought M. Williams and Jones might be improbable winners, but now my faith is shaken and hope they can be backups.

Here's my look at the O-line:

First String: Dockery graded C

Qualified backup candidates: Rabach, M. Williams, Levi Jones

fleetus · Post by **fleetus** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:15 pm

PulpExposure wrote:
fleetus wrote:
yupchagee wrote:I hope we take Okung in the 1st & the best OL on the board in the 2nd. Dockery is a solid starter, but if the season started today we would have to start:

LT Heyer
LG Dockery
C Edwin Williams
RG Rinehart
RT ???????

Remember M Williams, Jones & Rabach are UFA's.

+1

Fans always want a QB in the first round because they think that is the quick fix and it'll give them a new exciting player to watch. But in the land of The Hogs, it needs to start with O-line. If we can find a decent QB for youth and depth in the 2nd-4th round, great. A Brees/Schaub type QB (smart, accurate, but not necessarily a big arm) to develop into the Shannahan system.

I don't think that most fans think picking rookie QB is a quick fix by any stretch. Most fans know that you pick a rookie QB, and if he plays his first year, he'll probably be pretty awful (barring the rookie seasons of Flacco and Ryan, all other rookies have struggled by and large).

QB is definitely not a quick fix option. In fact I'd say you probably get less immediate bang for your buck out of a first rounder spent on a QB than you do for any other position. It's actually the exact opposite; a long-term investment, with minimal short-term returns.

Not just a quick fix for the team's success, but also for the fans. I think most fans of rebuilding teams are anxious to have a new "face of the franchise", a new jersey to buy, a new poster boy. QB is always the most popular position for that effect. If Snyder had his way this year, I am sure he'd be drafting a QB for marketing purposes. We need O-line. Plus, Claussen and Bradford have too many question marks for the #4 pick. It might be different if there was a bona fide top 3 or 4 QB available. But even then, we'd still need O-line more than QB.

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:15 pm

I may not think that Campbell is the Quarterback of the future... but I do think he's good enough. Every Redskins Superbowl win was with a quarterback who was "good enough".

On the other hand, our O Line is absolutely NOT good enough. Every Redskins Superbowl win was behind an O Line that was one of, if not THE best in the league.

Draft O Line, if at all possible.

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:18 pm

I disagree with Rabach. I think a lot of his issues snapping the ball in shotgun last year had a lot to do with the o-line being as bad as it was last year. And we saw constantly a ton of pressure coming to the RG all season long - which was right at his snapping hand.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:28 pm

I'm totally in favor of making the offensive line great as soon as possible - I just hope we can get more picks by trading out of that 4 spot IF (it's a big IF) Bradford or Claussen are either not available OR not deemed worthy by Shanahan and company

If we can get more picks and start to not only get a decent line in here as well as some decent depth that will be great IMO - I just don't want to try and have a good team for the short term (kind of like the giants recently) - I want these guys to try and get the most out of the next 3 drafts so that this franchise can get some players in here that want to win, not just get paid well like some of the guys we have now :wink:

we need to re-make this franchise back into a group of players that make each other better and are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:41 pm

I agree 100%. I'd also love to trade out but there is less than a 10% chance of that happening. Bradford looks like he's got a strong chance to go #1 overall. Unless Claussen lights it up on his proday, there are a lot of question marks being mentioned about his leadership skills and lack of a throwing arm. The only guy who seems really high on him is Mel Kiper.

If the coaches feel thats the best route for this team to go in, well I'll be scratching my head and saying, "OK?" But if they see a way to do something for the line with the #1 and #2 picks, I'd be all game for that.

#1 - Okung (LT)
#2 - Ducasse (guard or RT)

I think that if we went that route, the rest of the draft can focus on other area's of need. Heck, we could pick up a decent project QB in the 4th but I would say trade down there and pick up another pick if you can.

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Here is Todd McShays take on the O Line workouts yesterday:

INDIANAPOLIS -- Maryland OT Bruce Campbell has become the top workout warrior of the 2010 class, confirming everything we thought about his strength and athletic ability coming into the NFL combine.

Campbell ran an official 4.85-second 40-yard dash, turned in a 32-inch vertical jump and put up 34 repetitions on the standard 225-pound bench press.

He needs to play with better balance, his technique needs polishing and he has trouble staying healthy, but this showing proves that Campbell is blessed with rare physical tools and should make him a lock to come off the board in the bottom half of Round 1.

• Oklahoma OT Trent Williams was not far behind Campbell in terms of workout showing. Williams is not as chiseled as Campbell physically, but we were pleasantly surprised by the way Williams moved.

He was fluid and agile during drills, moved his feet well, and was quick in his sets with a strong, compact punch and good balance. This was a good day for Williams and a step in the right direction for a player whose ability to hold up on the left side has been questioned.

• Oklahoma State's Russell Okung is battling with Williams to be the top senior tackle off the board and had an up-and-down day. Okung showed good strength with 38 reps on the bench press and his time of 5.15 in the 40 was adequate. We knew he was somewhat limited athletically and that showed during drills, and Okung's combine ended when he suffered a groin injury during pass protection drills, but he did nothing to hurt his high-first-round grade.

• Florida C/G Maurkice Pouncey is making a strong push to become the top-rated interior lineman on our board. He looked balanced and fluid and moved his feet well during drills, and while Pouncey is not an elite athlete, he is very smooth.

Idaho G/T Mike Iupati remains ahead of Pouncey at this point, but the combine is not an ideal showcase for him because Iupati's game is predicated on power rather than athleticism. He held his own during drills, though, and Iupati remains a first-round prospect.

• Small school prospect Edwin Veldheer of Hillsdale (Mich.) was the under-the-radar story on Saturday. He has great size at 6-8⅛ and 312 pounds and his footwork is impressive. Veldheer showed that footwork off with a 4.51-second short shuttle (official), the fastest of all offensive linemen, and he clocked a good 40 time of 5.09 (official).

Veldheer moves smoothly and easily for his size and picks his feet up and puts them down quickly. He gained some momentum during the season and is continuing to make strides with his quickness and agility. His arms are on the shorter side at just 33 inches but that's really the only beef we have with what we saw from Veldheer.

• Indiana's Rodger Saffold had a solid say as well. Saffold doesn't look the part of a great athlete but is surprising with his flexibility and agility in space. His 5.22-second 40 is more than respectable for his size.

• It was not a good day for a pair of Notre Dame offensive linemen. Irish OT Sam Young showed heavy feet and struggled to bend at the waist and get good knee bend, while C Eric Olsen lacked balance and lost momentum when changing directions, even falling to the ground at one point.

• Arkansas G Mitch Petrus pulled up on his first 40 attempt with an apparent hamstring injury, but he did register a 5.20. We were most impressed with Petrus' overall strength, though, after he tied the combine record (since 2000) with 45 reps.

• Massachusetts G Vladimir Ducasse did little to help himself on Saturday. Ducasse's 5.21 in the 40 was adequate, but he continues to show a lack of athletic ability in space. He was stiff and struggled to change direction, and he also played a bit high. This showing, combined with a Senior Bowl week during which he looked lost on the edge, further convinces us that he is a better fit at guard despite playing tackle in college.

• Boston College C Matt Tennant also had problems during drills, struggling to get out of his stance quickly, shuffling his feet and failing to look fluid when changing directions. His stock has been hurt a bit.

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:09 pm

crazyhorse1 wrote:
Fios wrote:Must, must, must draft an offensive lineman, anything else is sheer stupidity.

The straw speaks with wisdom. But I'll take it further. We must draft OL in the first two rounds. Not only are Williams, Rabach, and Jones FA's, they are all suspect as players. Unless drastic action is taken, the OL could actually end up worse than it was last year. Heyer has no potential. Rabach can't center the ball in the same place twice. Jones doesn't want to play RT and says that he won't. Rinehard is so bad that not even desperation got him in the lineup for much of the year. Face it, he can't play. The only guy we have who should maybe be a first stringer in the NFL is Dockery, and he isn't much.

At one point last season, I thought M. Williams and Jones might be improbable winners, but now my faith is shaken and hope they can be backups.

Here's my look at the O-line:

First String: Dockery graded C

Qualified backup candidates: Rabach, M. Williams, Levi Jones

... though it does pain me to see that picture painted so starkly

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:28 pm

After spending some time with watching the drills (on TV and on the internet), I came away with impressions with these players:

Okung - Not overly athletic.
John Jerry - Overrated
Bruce Campbell - Very Athletic, but seemed stiff in pass pro drills. I think his chissled body will not translate to the field, unless given some time to learn behind another lineman.
Selfish Capers - Very Athletic, great hip flextion, footwork
Ted Larsen - He's a center, and man I was impressed with this guy. He's not rated very high, but wouldn't mind picking him up late to replace Rabach.
Alex Parsens - Question his footwork
Shelly Smith - Very Nice footwork
Matt Tennant - He was a mixed bag. Good footwork but looked a bit slow getting in and out of stances
Mike Iupati - Liked his quickness. Impressed me on how quick he was. This guy would fit well with our team
Ed Wang - I like this guy a lot. Very Athletic, fast, agile, good footwork. Both his parents were olympians, he's young, but not rated very high. Pick him in the second or third round for RT or Guard.
Tony Washington - Nice footwrok, seemed athletic
Trent Williams - This guy is fast!
Anthony Davis - Mixed bag here as well. Great footwork, and agility, but wasn't THAT impressed with him overall. Seemed slow on the pulling drills.

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:53 pm

I think that the Combine is really tough for lineman to show what they can do. I want to see tape of the top guys vs top talent.

As for Okung, he suffered an injury yesterday which probably slowed him a bit. I'm not sure.

As for Larsen - Great player. I'm an NC State fan and the guy was very decent on the D Line but just didn't have the ability to put on the weight to be a D Tackle in the NFL. He's worked under Tom O'Brien who makes Lineman and they teach fundamentals. He'll be a 4th round pick or late 3rd at the very earliest. But as they said yesterday, "He made him some money."

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:58 pm

Frankly, I don't care about Okung's "numbers". Here's what I care about... the guy has a history of going up against the best DE's that D1 could muster (including Orakpo) and shutting them all down. Every time. Period.

Not athletic? Whatever. The dude is a pass protecting machine.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:08 pm

Fios wrote:Must, must, must draft an offensive lineman, anything else is sheer stupidity.

I see your point. With the #4 pick in the entire draft, most teams target pro-bowl if not HOF type players. Better to ignore that and toss a early first round pick on a stop gap solution we can overpay because of where they are drafted. Pure "stupidity" to do anything else. That we're so close to being in the Super Bowl other then our OL just all the more reinforcing your point.

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:18 pm

frankcal20 wrote:I think that the Combine is really tough for lineman to show what they can do. I want to see tape of the top guys vs top talent.

As for Okung, he suffered an injury yesterday which probably slowed him a bit. I'm not sure.

As for Larsen - Great player. I'm an NC State fan and the guy was very decent on the D Line but just didn't have the ability to put on the weight to be a D Tackle in the NFL. He's worked under Tom O'Brien who makes Lineman and they teach fundamentals. He'll be a 4th round pick or late 3rd at the very earliest. But as they said yesterday, "He made him some money."

Ted Larsen the Center at NC State

Gibbs4Life · Post by **Gibbs4Life** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:19 pm

Can Okung block DWare?

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:26 pm

This is what I would suggest for the first 5 rounds now that I have done my scouting :wink:

Trade the 4th overall to Buffalo for their 9th and 41st picks. They want a OT and QB badly and would want to junp ahead of three other teams that may take a OT and two that will take a QB (two of them want to take both)... I say wait on ours.

9th pick - Take the best OT in the draft Brian Bulaga Iowa
second round - ILB Brandon Spikes Florida
41st pick - QB Dan LeFevour - Central Michigan
4th round - OT Ed Wang - VT
5th Round - Ted Larsen

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:39 pm

chiefhog44 wrote:This is what I would suggest for the first 5 rounds now that I have done my scouting :wink:

Trade the 4th overall to Buffalo for their 9th and 41st picks. They want a OT and QB badly and would want to junp ahead of three other teams that may take a OT and two that will take a QB (two of them want to take both)... I say wait on ours.

9th pick - Take the best OT in the draft Brian Bulaga Iowa
second round - ILB Brandon Spikes Florida
41st pick - QB Dan LeFevour - Central Michigan
4th round - OT Ed Wang - VT
5th Round - Ted Larsen

The only person I could pass on is Brandon Spikes b/c I'm not sure that we need a ILB that bad. We're going to play the 3/4 but with 4/3 tendencies. I would draft either a RT there or CB if someone is there that just really stands out.

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:12 pm

my buddy (Shannahan's agent) went out with Kyle (until 2 in the morning) and Mike on Friday and Saturday at the combine. He hasn't called me back yet. I wonder if he said anything. I'll check in later tonight with anything I hear

FireVinny · Post by **FireVinny** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:48 pm

Countertrey wrote:Frankly, I don't care about Okung's "numbers". Here's what I care about... the guy has a history of going up against the best DE's that D1 could muster (including Orakpo) and shutting them all down. Every time. Period.

Not athletic? Whatever. The dude is a pass protecting machine.

Dude put up the second most reps on the bench with 38 of 225.... that was better than Campbell.. I don't really care about the guy's 40 time. He sat out drills today after tweaking his groin, but out of what he got through his numbers look great!

Still, you're right, what matters are his skills... and there he's the one guy ready to start at LT tomorrow in the pros.

yupchagee · Post by **yupchagee** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:37 pm

chiefhog44 wrote:This is what I would suggest for the first 5 rounds now that I have done my scouting

Trade the 4th overall to Buffalo for their 9th and 41st picks. They want a OT and QB badly and would want to junp ahead of three other teams that may take a OT and two that will take a QB (two of them want to take both)... I say wait on ours.

9th pick - Take the best OT in the draft Brian Bulaga Iowa
second round - ILB Brandon Spikes Florida
41st pick - QB Dan LeFevour - Central Michigan
4th round - OT Ed Wang - VT
5th Round - Ted Larsen

I don't see the need for an ILB. We need more OL's & a RB.

HEROHAMO · Post by **HEROHAMO** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:42 am

I never find myself agreeing with Mcshay. I personally like Mel Kipers opinions better.

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:01 pm

I can't stand Kiper. He gets so offended when anyone disagree's with his assessment.

The best - new guy is Mike Mayock from NFL Network. This guy is dead on a good part of the time. He's an ex-player and is considered to be one of the top talent evaluators today. He's been offered many jobs in the NFL but he chooses to stay at NFL Network.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:47 pm

frankcal20 wrote:I can't stand Kiper. He gets so offended when anyone disagree's with his assessment.

I agree with you Frank - Kiper comes across like he's the only one that knows anything and it does not sound like he's at all receptive to what others may think

PLUS - he just looks wrong :twisted:

BUT - what can you say - it's that time of year again and opinions are like assh*l*s, everyone's got one - look at what's been going on here for the past 2 months

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:44 pm

spoke to my buddy about seeing Shannahan at the combine. He went to dinner with Kyle both Friday and Saturday. Didn't talk specifics on anyone, but thought it was funny that trade rummers were popping up about Campbell. They are totally false and made up by the media as speculation.

Kyle is a real good dude. Very down to Earth. My buddy went out with him both nights (I won't go into specifics, don't think he would want that out, but it sounded like a blast). He mentioned how excited he was to coach for the skins. Has a TON of respect for this organization and is really excited to coach for this team. He must have mentioned that many times, just the respect he has for this team and organization. Really thinks that this structure is going going to win. Other than that, that's all that he mentioned about the skins. My buddy didn't press him about it.

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:49 pm

Oh and one more thing. He spent some time mentioning how impressed he is with Bradford, and that the guy is a beast. Not sure if that indicates anything or not, but I thought it was interesting

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:22 pm

Hmmmm - any chance we draft Bradford, pick up another 1st round pick from God knows who and get a few offensive lineman in there. JC is the starter next year and Bradford sits and watches?????

Intriguing.

But he could also be impressed with the kid and say - boy do I love Farrari's but I don't need one