The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

frankcal20 wrote:

Krisk86 wrote:I don't understand why Jason Campbell has any support at all. Granted the O-Line needs MAJOR upgrading, Campbell is not the QB to make this team a contender. Big Ben was drafted a year before Campbell and during his pro career he has been pressured and sacked more than any other QB, yet he leads game winning drives, come from behind drives, and has two Super Bowls Championships. Even when Campbell has time and a man open he over throws them. How many times this season did Santana Moss get open for a walk in score only for Campbell to overthrow him. The best thing this team can do in the offseason is let Campbell go somewhere else and be a back up to a real QB. We have the 4th overall pick in the draft, and it needs to be used on the most accurate QB in NCAA history Sam Bradford. Forget the mobile QB crap like Michael Vick and McNabb, we need a pocket passer that can put the ball where only the receiver can catch it. Yeah I know we would be placing a rookie under center, but Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco took their teams to the playoffs their rookie seasons, and Mark Sanchez was a game from the Super Bowl. All these off season changes in Washington are for the best, but nothing is gonna change till Campbell is gone.

Good post but your analysis is very vague. Did JC overthrow his receivers - yes. Was his line bad? Most would say the worst in the NFL. Sacks don't tell the whole story. Ben and Rogers are criticized for not throwing the ball away. They hold on the ball too long which in effect leads to sacks. But it's a give and take. They hold onto the ball and their receivers get open. Not to mention that Ben is considered the hardest QB to sack because of his size.

The problem is that so many Redskins fans - and most for that matter - are always looking at other teams and saying, why can't we do that? Well, there's a reason why QB's are successful. It usually starts with have adequate protection and reliable WR's. Then there is accuracy - which JC should work on.

But I do believe that the best career move for JC is to go somewhere else and be a QB but there's no doubt in my mind that he's a starter in the league. Hell, he was ranked right in the middle of the pack in QB's even though the team flat out stunk - regardless of when those stats were made.

frankcal20 wrote:If you let JC go, you have to expect that you are not going to find anyone better statistically and cohesively. You've got to be ok with that. For me, I would be - as long as we get some value there through a trade.

frankcal20 wrote:
Ben and Rogers are criticized for not throwing the ball away. They hold on the ball too long which in effect leads to sacks.

Krisk86 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:
Ben and Rogers are criticized for not throwing the ball away. They hold on the ball too long which in effect leads to sacks.

Campbell holds on to the ball for way too long waiting for the receiver he has locked on to, to get open while someone else is open but he never sees them. By then he gets sacked and ofcourse fumbles. Jim Rome was saying today that the Saints know that their only chance of winning the Super Bowl is to take Peyton Manning out. There isn't a defense in the NFL that is worried about playing against Jason Campbell. Good QB's make plays when they shouldn't and in five years of Jason Campbell I am yet to see him do anything but over throw wide open recievers, dump off for a gain of 4 or a screen on 3rd and long, or take a sack and fumbling. People talk about his stats are 15th in the league, who cares stats don't win football games. Brett Farve and the Vikings STATS were double what the Saints had Saturday and guess what the Vikings lost. Mark Sanchez was ranked 28th at the end of the regular season and he was one game from the Super Bowl.

langleyparkjoe wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:

Krisk86 wrote:I don't understand why Jason Campbell has any support at all. Granted the O-Line needs MAJOR upgrading, Campbell is not the QB to make this team a contender. Big Ben was drafted a year before Campbell and during his pro career he has been pressured and sacked more than any other QB, yet he leads game winning drives, come from behind drives, and has two Super Bowls Championships. Even when Campbell has time and a man open he over throws them. How many times this season did Santana Moss get open for a walk in score only for Campbell to overthrow him. The best thing this team can do in the offseason is let Campbell go somewhere else and be a back up to a real QB. We have the 4th overall pick in the draft, and it needs to be used on the most accurate QB in NCAA history Sam Bradford. Forget the mobile QB crap like Michael Vick and McNabb, we need a pocket passer that can put the ball where only the receiver can catch it. Yeah I know we would be placing a rookie under center, but Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco took their teams to the playoffs their rookie seasons, and Mark Sanchez was a game from the Super Bowl. All these off season changes in Washington are for the best, but nothing is gonna change till Campbell is gone.

Good post but your analysis is very vague. Did JC overthrow his receivers - yes. Was his line bad? Most would say the worst in the NFL. Sacks don't tell the whole story. Ben and Rogers are criticized for not throwing the ball away. They hold on the ball too long which in effect leads to sacks. But it's a give and take. They hold onto the ball and their receivers get open. Not to mention that Ben is considered the hardest QB to sack because of his size.

The problem is that so many Redskins fans - and most for that matter - are always looking at other teams and saying, why can't we do that? Well, there's a reason why QB's are successful. It usually starts with have adequate protection and reliable WR's. Then there is accuracy - which JC should work on.

But I do believe that the best career move for JC is to go somewhere else and be a QB but there's no doubt in my mind that he's a starter in the league. Hell, he was ranked right in the middle of the pack in QB's even though the team flat out stunk - regardless of when those stats were made.

JC- 15th in passing yards, 18th in touchdowns, 9th in INTs, 3rd in sacks

Looks pretty mediocre to me but considering there's 32 QBs in the league, his numbers aren't good. Hey look folks, we've seen flashes of brilliance from this guy and we've seen the horrid nonsense too. I'm ok with keeping the guy for one more year only because I want to see him behind a healthy OL for a whole season. After that if he stinks it up, peace out JC. Now drafting a QB to sit for one year is cool with me too but I've said it before and I'll say it again, we need a OL no matter who is back there.

Krisk86 wrote:I was refering to Favre's stats, I know the Vikings are a great team all around and should be playing in the Super Bowl. The skins are no where close to the Vikings, but Moss is a great WR if he wasn't overthrown. My wife was watching a game with me and asked "why don't they pull Campbell, He sucks?". I would rather see us draft Bradford and let Collins start before going through another season of Jason Campbell. When he was at Auburn, he was a mobile QB that could take off and run like Vick, but I havn't seen that since he started in Washington. I'm not a fan of that type of QB. What have Vince Young, Michael Vick, Donoven McNabb, or Daunte Cullpepper done that compares to Brett Farve, Peyton Manning, or Tom Brady. We need an accurate smart pocket passer that can read the defense and adjust the play accordingly, not someone thats going to hold the ball, drop to run, and take a sack. I didn't like it when the skins drafted Campbell and I still don't like that he is the starter and will probably be next season. It says something when Denver wanted Kyle Orton instead of Jason Campbell in the Cutler trade.

Krisk86 wrote:It says something when Denver wanted Kyle Orton instead of Jason Campbell in the Cutler trade.

Californiaskin wrote:

riggofan wrote:Anybody who watched the 2009 Redskins and thinks their biggest problem was Jason Campbell has about the same football IQ as my wife.

I don't really care if Shanahan keeps JC or brings in a free agent. He's got to fix the o-line for anybody to be successful. Otherwise we'll have to endure another year of these armchair analysts telling us all how [Insert QB's Name Here] is completely to blame for the team sucking.

well said riggofan.........campbell played well last year

frankcal20 wrote:I get where you are coming from but I have to be honest. None of the QB's in this draft even remotely compare to Manning or Favre. Also, the Cutler trade was not as black and white as you painted. We didn't have the amo to trade that Chicago has. Oh, and look how thats turned out so far. About as good as Washington - only 1 game better.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Krisk86 wrote:It says something when Denver wanted Kyle Orton instead of Jason Campbell in the Cutler trade.

Um...what does it say? Orton, two firsts and a third or JC?

Such a difficult choice, what should I do? Am I on the clock? How long do I have for this one? Tough, very tough.

old-timer wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Krisk86 wrote:It says something when Denver wanted Kyle Orton instead of Jason Campbell in the Cutler trade.

Um...what does it say? Orton, two firsts and a third or JC?

Such a difficult choice, what should I do? Am I on the clock? How long do I have for this one? Tough, very tough.

Campbell's mediocrate passing stats prove little or nothing. Most of the completions and yardages were accumulated in garbage time when the yardage and completions were worthless. Don't even get me started on completion percentage, with all those screens and dumpoffs good for 7 yards on 3rd and 8. The most important stat on Campbell is how many times he pulled out a game no-one expected him to, or when he put together a drive we really needed. I don't recall that EVER happening.

Most fans and opposing players know Campbell is mediocre at best. Jurgenson played for years on pathetic losing Redskin teams and it was universally recognized that he was great and the Skins would have been great if they could just have gotten a team around him. In contrast, I don't hear anyone saying that about Campbell, and there isn't a defense in the league afraid of him, IMHO for good reason.

Campbell might be serviceable if we get a good O-line, but even with the Colt offense around him I doubt if he'd be a championship QB. That said, replacing him is not the highest priority because we have so many other needs.

old-timer wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Krisk86 wrote:It says something when Denver wanted Kyle Orton instead of Jason Campbell in the Cutler trade.

Um...what does it say? Orton, two firsts and a third or JC?

Such a difficult choice, what should I do? Am I on the clock? How long do I have for this one? Tough, very tough.

Campbell's mediocrate passing stats prove little or nothing. Most of the completions and yardages were accumulated in garbage time when the yardage and completions were worthless. Don't even get me started on completion percentage, with all those screens and dumpoffs good for 7 yards on 3rd and 8. The most important stat on Campbell is how many times he pulled out a game no-one expected him to, or when he put together a drive we really needed. I don't recall that EVER happening.

Most fans and opposing players know Campbell is mediocre at best. Jurgenson played for years on pathetic losing Redskin teams and it was universally recognized that he was great and the Skins would have been great if they could just have gotten a team around him. In contrast, I don't hear anyone saying that about Campbell, and there isn't a defense in the league afraid of him, IMHO for good reason.

Campbell might be serviceable if we get a good O-line, but even with the Colt offense around him I doubt if he'd be a championship QB. That said, replacing him is not the highest priority because we have so many other needs.

VetSkinsFan wrote:Yup, and palycalling had NOTHING, NOTHING to do with it. Nope, no sir, not one bit.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

old-timer wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Krisk86 wrote:It says something when Denver wanted Kyle Orton instead of Jason Campbell in the Cutler trade.

Um...what does it say? Orton, two firsts and a third or JC?

Such a difficult choice, what should I do? Am I on the clock? How long do I have for this one? Tough, very tough.

Campbell's mediocrate passing stats prove little or nothing. Most of the completions and yardages were accumulated in garbage time when the yardage and completions were worthless. Don't even get me started on completion percentage, with all those screens and dumpoffs good for 7 yards on 3rd and 8. The most important stat on Campbell is how many times he pulled out a game no-one expected him to, or when he put together a drive we really needed. I don't recall that EVER happening.

Most fans and opposing players know Campbell is mediocre at best. Jurgenson played for years on pathetic losing Redskin teams and it was universally recognized that he was great and the Skins would have been great if they could just have gotten a team around him. In contrast, I don't hear anyone saying that about Campbell, and there isn't a defense in the league afraid of him, IMHO for good reason.

Campbell might be serviceable if we get a good O-line, but even with the Colt offense around him I doubt if he'd be a championship QB. That said, replacing him is not the highest priority because we have so many other needs.

OK, but I'm not sure why you quoted my post and said this. Did you understand it?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:Yup, and palycalling had NOTHING, NOTHING to do with it. Nope, no sir, not one bit.

So, we only get to pick one factor? And the factor we get to pick is contingent on passing the playcalling test? I can't say JC held the ball too long, can't consistently throw catchable balls to open receivers, has a horrible deep ball because he can't loft it and just isn't improving for any of those unless I pass the play calling litmus test?

He pointed out, accurately, that JC's stats make him look better then he is. Having TiVo'd and watched the entire season that's clearly true and obvious to anyone who watched the games regardless of it failing the play calling litmus test. He's good enough to beat teams running the prevent defense. If we could get teams to just start the game that way...he'd be fine.

old-timer wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:OK, but I'm not sure why you quoted my post and said this. Did you understand it?

Sorry, I clicked on the wrong 'quote' button, I make mistakes like that sometimes when I get fired up, I'm so tired of people using Campbell's stats to justifiy the statement that he's a good QB.

VetSkinsFan wrote:Please illustrate where I said that playcalling was the only factor.

VetSkinsFan wrote:Yup, and palycalling had NOTHING, NOTHING to do with it. Nope, no sir, not one bit.

dlc wrote:What I don't understand from the JC proponents is what does he do well?

Is he elusive in the pocket? An accurate passer? Dangerous running the ball? Makes quick and good decisions? Consistent long ball? Clutch? Knows how to win? Killer instinct? Great play fakes? Moves defensive backs away with pump fakes or his eyes? Reading defenses and blitz packages before the snap?

He has size and a strong arm but goes down easy, fumbles often and can't hit receivers down field. The physical talent is there but it doesn't amount to anything to fear.